Rough Draft submissions and vote thread

[UncleOst]

PVP Question:

 

- There have been some concerns with the current applications of "Enraged Defense". Immortal tanks perceive it as useless, Vengeance Jugs absolutely love it, and Rage Jugs are indifferent. We realize you've linked the existing abilities for our benefit generically speaking. However we the Jug community, would like to see more specific applications of this ability, intrinsic to each tree. Additionally, we would ask for separate "threat dumps". Once again, the Vengeance tree has a beautiful synergy with Enraged Defense within its spec. Would you create unique and featable options for Enraged Defense within the Rage and Immortal trees?

 

 

 

PVE Question:

 

- We are very happy with our current Jug pve experience within Rage and Immortal. There is a common concern for the heavy reliance on RNG within the Vengeance tree. Specifically, we the Jug community have voiced viable solutions for the current ability "Rampage" and "Seething Hatred". We are asking you to please take a closer look at the way these abilities operate. Would you consider examining some of our suggestions? Our wish is for a bridge to be built between the pve and pvp functionality with this spec.

 

 

General Question

 

- Aside from the problems previously expressed with graphical errors/jug bugs, we would ask for "skilled utility". What we mean by that is we want more synergies between the respective trees. Would it be possible to include stackable debuffs allowable only through separate specs? We want to have special "jug specific" utilities that empower the entire team when applied in concert. Instead of constantly asking for more blind dps, we instead ask for options to debuff our targets more effectively. We jugs like to work for our damage potential. Would there be possibilities for an enhanced Juggernaut utility such as this?

Edited August 16, 2013 by UncleOst

[ArenCordial]

Well for my worthless 2 cents.

 

The PvP question looks great.

 

The PvE question, has me scratching my head. Do other Veng Juggs actually use Enraged Defense in raids? To be frank normally I rather just tell the tanks throw out a guard on me than hit Enraged Defense with that high focus cost because it will cost me dps. I can see the applications for PvP though.

 

The General Question

 

Well I've kinda said my piece on this before that once we start asking for new/better utilities then everyone will for their class and Pandora's Box will be open. I know a lot of people are still frustrated over not bringing as much to the table as a Mara or Sniper but quite frankly unless we get a better utility than Bloodthirst the Mara is still going to be picked for a raid slot over the Jugg for an mdps because they also have a high damage ceiling if everything else is equal. And I just don't see BioWare handing of something that's going to be equal to or better than Bloodthirst as they'd have to redesign content. Still if that's what people want to ask, I'm not going to stand in the way.

Edited August 13, 2013 by ArenCordial

[kennethdale]

First off, thank you for taking the initiative to move this from a discussion to an active real "Question list". Now on to comments...

 

PVE Question:

 

- There have been some concerns with the current applications of "Enraged Defense". Immortal tanks perceive it as useless, Vengeance Jugs absolutely love it, and Rage Jugs are indifferent. We realize you've linked the existing abilities for our benefit generically speaking. However, we the Jug community, would like to see more specific applications of this ability, intrinsic to each tree. Once again, the Vengeance tree has a beautiful synergy with Enraged Defense within its spec. Would you create unique and featable options for Enraged Defense within the Rage and Immortal trees?

 

The issue here is that in reality NO Juggernaut spec has any real use for Enraged Defense. There are arguments for using it very situationally in Immortal PvE as a Defensive CD in conjunction with taunt but it is extremely situational and really not useful at all. Most Juggernauts would rather just get guard than risk wasting resources for such a useless threat drop. Here is a different suggestion for the phrasing of this question:

 

-PVE -

The community has significant concerns about the usefulness of Enraged Defenses particularly in DPS specs as all other DPS classes have a resource-free threat drop that in some cases (Marauders/Sentinels, Mercenaries/Commandos, Assassin/Shadow) provides significant utility on top of the threat drop without adding a cost. What is the reasoning behind providing Juggernauts with only a resource-intensive threat drop with the utility of a built-in heal and is there any intention to bring this threat drop more in line with other threat drop abilities?

 

PVP Question:

 

- We are very happy with our current Jug pvp experience within Rage and Immortal. There is a common concern for the heavy reliance on RNG within the Vengeance tree. Specifically, we the Jug community have voiced viable solutions for the current ability "Rampage" and "Seething Hatred". We are asking you to please take a closer look at the way these abilities operate. Would you consider examining some of our suggestions? Our wish is for a bridge to be built between the pve and pvp functionality with this spec.

 

The main issue with this question is that it is not really a PvP question and phrasing it as one worries me a lot because the truth is Vengeance suffers the most in PvE based on bad-RNG. I don't PvP much on my Juggernaut so someone else might be more adept at giving an accurate picture of the concerns. Whatever our question is though, be prepared to get a response that references how powerful Rage is at this point in time.

 

General Question

 

- Aside from the problems previously expressed with graphical errors/jug bugs, we would ask for "skilled utility". What we mean by that is we want more synergies between the respective trees. Would it be possible to include stackable debuffs allowable only through separate specs? We want to have special "jug specific" utilities that empower the entire team when applied in concert. Instead of constantly asking for more blind dps, we instead ask for options to debuff our targets more effectively. We jugs like to work for our damage potential. Would there be possibilities for an enhanced Juggernaut utility such as this?

 

Frankly, this question feels like you were reaching for another question to answer (I apologize if this was not the case, it was simply the way I read it). I would eliminate this question altogether and instead use the following question for the General question:

 

-General -

The community has expressed a lot of concern regarding the variance of the Vengeance tree DPS. In particular, the issues seem to stem from the Rampage talent and its relation to the length of the cool downs on both Shatter and impale. Other proc based classes have either a much larger chance to obtain a proc than the 30% of Rampage or are able to use more abilities to obtain a proc than Juggernauts at this point. Because of this the DPS of the Vengeance tree can shift by large amounts (up to approximately 300-400 DPS in a given fight) based solely on how often a player received Rampage procs and how well-timed these procs were. As a result of this, many in the community feel that the stronger, more reliable DPS spec is Rage which as was referenced in your answers to the Jedi Sentinel questions is intended to be lower single target DPS but higher multi-target DPS. Is this variability of DPS in the Vengeance tree intended and are Juggernauts intended to use Rage for single-target DPS unlike Marauders/Sentinels?

 

Those are my revisions and opinions. Comment, argue, and flame to your hearts content.

[UncleOst]

Well for my worthless 2 cents.

 

The PvP question looks great.

 

The PvE question, has me scratching my head. Do other Veng Juggs actually use Enraged Defense in raids? To be frank normally I rather just tell the tanks throw out a guard on me than hit Enraged Defense with that high focus cost because it will cost me dps. I can see the applications for PvP though.

 

The General Question

 

Well I've kinda said my piece on this before that once we start asking for new/better utilities then everyone will for their class and Pandora's Box will be open. I know a lot of people are still frustrated over not bringing as much to the table as a Mara or Sniper but quite frankly unless we get a better utility than Bloodthirst the Mara is still going to be picked for a raid slot over the Jugg for an mdps because they also have a high damage ceiling if everything else is equal. And I just don't see BioWare handing of something that's going to be equal to or better than Bloodthirst as they'd have to redesign content. Still if that's what people want to ask, I'm not going to stand in the way.

 

I hear ya. One other great suggestion the guards made, was a group alacrity buff similar to bloodthirst in design. That would be awesome, but would be overpowered in my opinion. Asking for stackable enhanced jug debuffs would only work when applied as a group, on a single target basis. Said utility would obviously empower the group, and as such serve as jug specific utility. There's no reason why our sabres cannot crush our opponent's armor!!!

 

 

We can switch the titles for pve and pvp questions. In my opinion, seperating the two is silly but we can swap the questions easily.

 

Onward with the revolution!!!

[kennethdale]

I hear ya. One other great suggestion the guards made, was a group alacrity buff similar to bloodthirst in design. That would be awesome, but would be overpowered in my opinion. Asking for stackable enhanced jug debuffs would only work when applied as a group, on a single target basis. Said utility would obviously empower the group, and as such serve as jug specific utility. There's no reason why our sabres cannot crush our opponent's armor!!!

 

 

We can switch the titles for pve and pvp questions. In my opinion, seperating the two is silly but we can swap the questions easily.

 

Onward with the revolution!!!

 

No thoughts on my revisions?

[Ottoattack]

I actually like the third question, and it does not necessarily mean we need a new skill to get more utility. For example if the debuff from jugg is upped to 40% from 20% in dps tree(s), that would probably warrant juggs mdps a place in 16 man Ops. Again this is just an example, there are many ways to provide additional group utility impact for existing skills.

 

Enraged defense is not meant as defensive skill much in PvE but a threat drop, and it does work in PvP. We may consider asking about something different or simply remove the rage cost.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Ottoattack

[metaIsaber]

Personally feel the "rampage" question is more of the general question since it fits into both PVE and PVP issues of being a really viable spec.

[UncleOst]

No thoughts on my revisions?

 

Ya I was busy with something. Sry.

 

You have great points. I think we are simply taking different roads to the same destination. Ultimately, Enraged Defense and the Vengeance condition, are the focal points. How we phrase these concerns under which domain, I could care less. If a pve'er wants to phrase the vengeance condition as a pve question, that's fine with me. Any revamps regarding rampage could only improve pvp, that's obvious.

 

General question I proposed would apply to all specs. If somebody comes up with a digestable alternative, that is not overpowered, and remains beneficial to all trees...I'm all ears.

[UncleOst]

Personally feel the "rampage" question is more of the general question since it fits into both PVE and PVP issues of being a really viable spec.

 

Once again, you must look beyond to the bigger picture. A rampage revamp, requested by pve'ers, would ultimately benefit pvp gameplay. Therefore the Vengeance condition, specifically rampage will remain phrased as either from a pvp or pve perspective, and not from a general point of view.

[UncleOst]

I actually like the third question, and it does not necessarily mean we need a new skill to get more utility. For example if the debuff from jugg is upped to 40% from 20% in dps tree(s), that would probably warrant juggs mdps a place in 16 man Ops. Again this is just an example, there are many ways to provide additional group utility impact for existing skills.

 

Enraged defense is not meant as defensive skill much in PvE but a threat drop, and it does work in PvP. We may consider asking about something different or simply remove the rage cost.

 

By all means guys, please quote or edit the questions to illuminate your perspective.

 

The end result will be a mutual evolution. Please, get your hands dirty!

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

The PvE question, has me scratching my head. Do other Veng Juggs actually use Enraged Defense in raids? To be frank normally I rather just tell the tanks throw out a guard on me than hit Enraged Defense with that high focus cost because it will cost me dps.

 

^This

 

I run Vengeance in raids and almost never use Enraged Defense. The rage cost throws off my rotation and affects my DPS. About the only time I use this ability is when was popping bloodthirst at the start of the fight before the tank has time to build threat. If we had a free agro drop like most classes I'd use it more, but we don't. Also the 'heal' on this is a joke. My question around this move would be can we get Enraged Defense changed to be a no cost aggro drop with no heal attached.

[UncleOst]

^This

 

I run Vengeance in raids and almost never use Enraged Defense. The rage cost throws off my rotation and affects my DPS. About the only time I use this ability is when was popping bloodthirst at the start of the fight before the tank has time to build threat. If we had a free agro drop like most classes I'd use it more, but we don't. Also the 'heal' on this is a joke. My question around this move would be can we get Enraged Defense changed to be a no cost aggro drop with no heal attached.

 

Threat drop has to be removed. That has been suggested alot. I mean...alot.

 

You must also realize how enraged defense within the vengeance tree has the most intrinsic synergy, and is the prime example for the other trees.

 

Thank you for your input. We will rephrase our enraged defense question to include a separate threat dump.

[MarkXXIV]

Make vengeance wanted for ranked and prepare it for 2.4 arenas!!!

[ssfish]

There are currently 5 melee DPS classes (Marauder, Juggernaut, Assassin, Powertech, Operative). Amongst these classes, each brings its own group benefits. The current DPS output currently places Juggernauts solidly above Assassins, about on par with Powertechs, and well below Marauder./Operative, while also being noticeably lower than all 3 ranged DPS classes. Our raid utility is easily supplemented elsewhere (Juggernaut tank, Sniper, Arsenal Mercenary), and our actual DPS potential is, while viable, unimpressive. The only thing that we have unique to our class is Intercede, which can have some situational usefulness in a raid setting, but is largely unimpressive. What role do you envision DPS-specced Juggernauts fulfilling in a raid setting, do you feel we are meeting this desired role, and what tools/features have you/will you provide Juggernaunts that make them desirable in a raid setting?

 

 

Could use a little fluffing up, but I feel it's much more critical to get some attention upon this than dealing with Enraged Defense. Especially when you consider that this Q&A really doesn't seem to be designed as a forum for requesting/advocating specific mechanical changes.

Edited August 14, 2013 by ssfish

[metaIsaber]

In my opinion all DPS classes with the same lvl of gear should put out the same amount (or within a small %) damage. The only questions should boil down to what does the raid group feel is the best utility for their group. However I don't believe that will ever come to pass.

[KarethRiker]

KennethDale's post was money. I agree with it almost entirely. His third general question could really easily be turned into a PVP question though by phrasing the Rampage Procs as making the burst of the spec very RNG dependent, and obviously burst is important in PVP.

 

I think a great question would be something about the cooldown timers of Jugg utilities and if they feel they are inline with similar talents in other classes. This might be a bit too narrow, but to me Intercede and maybe even Saber Throw or Push seem on too long a CD. Could also work this into the Enraged Defense question by making it more about Jugg cool down design philosophy.

[kennethdale]

KennethDale's post was money. I agree with it almost entirely. His third general question could really easily be turned into a PVP question though by phrasing the Rampage Procs as making the burst of the spec very RNG dependent, and obviously burst is important in PVP.

 

I think a great question would be something about the cooldown timers of Jugg utilities and if they feel they are inline with similar talents in other classes. This might be a bit too narrow, but to me Intercede and maybe even Saber Throw or Push seem on too long a CD. Could also work this into the Enraged Defense question by making it more about Jugg cool down design philosophy.

 

First off thanks. I worry about making the Rampage thing a PvP issue only since it is a VERY significant issue for PvE as well (moreso than the Enraged Defense one).

[UncleOst]

First off thanks. I worry about making the Rampage thing a PvP issue only since it is a VERY significant issue for PvE as well (moreso than the Enraged Defense one).

 

I've stated already that we can switch the domains as we see fit. Ultimately an improvement in one field will benefit the other.

 

1. Pve question: Vengeance concerns/ suggestions

 

2. Pvp question: Enraged Defense concerns/ suggestions

 

3. General question: Group utilities? (Enhanced cross-spec debuff improvements/alacrity...insert something sweet).

 

Someone with an eloquent command of the English language, and a flair for the dramatic, can you please step up and re-phrase these. LoL, please stick to the mutually agreed formats I've pointed above.

 

The problem is, we keep stumbling around trying to decide what we want. This delay is actually hurting us. We need our elected fearless leaders to step up and assume their roles. If I was Rep, we'd have had our responses by now. In all fairness, I actually prefer the involvement we've had here together with this discussion. It has strengthened our community and enhanced our awareness of our class. We can't relent with our pursuit.

Edited August 15, 2013 by UncleOst

[EnalisNailo]

 

Someone with an eloquent command of the English language, and a flair for the dramatic, can you please step up and re-phrase these. LoL, please stick to the mutually agreed formats I've pointed above.

.

 

I shall try my best.

 

This post has turned into quite the wall of text, excuse me for a bit while I attempt to finish it, easily a couple pages in and still on enraged defense.

[EnalisNailo]

-Disclaimer: References to other classes and specs are -NOT- claims of another class/spec being overpowered or demands for nerfs, they are simply for drawing comparisons between the Juggernauts/Guardians and other classes/specs. In addition many references within the following will refer to the Juggernaut versions of the skills, as my knowledge of the mirrored names of the guardian side is limited.-

 

Since the deployment of The Rise of the Hutt Cartel and the 2.0 class balance reworkings, and arguably even before previously mentioned events, there have been many concerns within the Sith Juggernaut and Jedi Guardian communities. As we now move closer towards patch 2.4 and have had the opportunity for extensive rotation, priority eperimentation; we as a community feel that many of these concerns have yet to be addressed, chiefly among them are the applications of the talent "Enraged Defense/Focused Defense", the high variance in potential and theoretical DPS capabilities within "Vengeance/Vigilance", and our roles in terms of utility and viability within a pve/pvp group environment beyond the simple capacity of a capable DPS.

 

Enraged Defense

 

Enraged Defense has been a source of many heated debates since its addition to the Juggernaut arsenal. Functioning both as an aggro drop and a heal, on paper, and even in certain situational events, is a great ability- primarily within the realm of PVP. Vengeance, arguably, has the best enraged defense of the three juggernaut specs. The Deafening Defense perk offering the Vengeance Juggernaut increased damage reduction at all times, on top of an extra 15% damage reduction upon activation.

 

Concern #1) Activation and sustaining costs of Enraged Defense-

 

Enraged defense is the only DPS threat reduction cooldown in the game that has a resource cost tied to it, and a rather high costing one at that. Continuing to use the Vengeance Juggernaut as the model for this ability, as they, as stated earlier, gain the most overall benefit from this ability, use 1/4 of their entire resource to activate this ability (Four Rage required, three Rage consumed as Shien form refunds one unit of rage.) Outside of Vengeance this activation cost jumps to a staggering 1/3. In addition to the initial cost of activation, each successive hit the Juggernaut takes, drains another unit of rage to trigger the secondary effect of Enraged Defense, being a heal for 3% of maximum health. As stated earlier, this is the only threat drop in the game that has any sort of cost associated with it, a cost many in the community feel is far greater than the return we receive from the ability itself.

Concern#2) Functionality vs's other free threat drops.

 

While a self heal sounds like a great utility to have, with the current gear levels within this game, and the actual percentage of a heal we get, it leaves much to be desired, especially at such a high cost. Using my own Juggernaut as an example, in optimized 72's and all four class buffs, I have just shy of 34,000 health. A 3% heal from that would be 1,020 health regained. That is 576 damage less than my basic auto attack.

The healing secondary behind this ability functions solely to take the sting off of major hits, so long as we are being beaten on by something of our level, we will be taking damage, perhaps not a lot of damage while this ability is active, but damage none-the-less. Our first comparison will be against our counterpart, the Marauder. Once again I will be drawing upon the Vengeance Juggernaut for the sake of these comparisons. The Marauder's threat drop of choice is the ability Force Camouflage, this ability is free and operates upon a forty-five second cool down timer, the exact same timer that Enraged Defense operates on. Force-Camouflage has no sustaining cost to it either and offers the marauder a temporary stealth. Be-it PVE or PVP this stealth essentially forces a target swap off the Maruader, in addition offering a 50% blanket damage reduction. Carnage Marauders can also specialize this ability to remove all movement impairing effects.

 

Using my rough average attack damage on Impale, a go-to move for the Vengeance Juggernaut, of 4800 we already see some drastic disparities. A Juggernaut utilizing the 15%+1020 heal will still be taking roughly 3,060 points of damage, whilst the Marauder getting hit with this same ability, a rather difficult feat considering their stealth, would only take roughly 2400 points of damage, give or take a few percent of damage to factor in the differences in armor, we have an inferior threat drop for a far greater cost.

 

The other comparison being drawn frequantly within this community is that to the force-cloak that Assassins have available to them. A 100% threat drop, ontop of a 100% cost free drop that also offers "Virtually Undetectable" stealth for 10seconds, though at the cost of greatly reduced healing. Deception assassins can also specialize this ability to automatically refresh the cooldown on their resource regeneration ability, something unique to the Assassin, but also going to show that other classes have access to incredibly powerful threat reductions at no cost, and similar or equal cool down timers.

 

Sorcerer, Sniper, Operative, Mercenary, Powertech, and of course their republic mirrors, all have access to resource free threat drops many with the ability to add additional utility onto their threat drops as well. Even with the added utility of the 15% damage reduction offered by the Vengeance tree, many of the members of the Juggernaut/Guardian community are left wondering why our threat drop has such a high cost to it. In both PvE and PvP using it will absolutely destroy the outgoing damage or force us to utilize our resource generation CD in conjunction with Enraged Defense.

 

Our threat drop and added utility is no greater than that of a Marauders, arguably worse even due to the lack of stealth and lower damage reduction offered. I feel it is safe to say, that the entirety of the Juggernaut/Guardian community feel this ability -Must- be re-examined, that the costs far out weigh any sort of benefit that can be obtained through this ability, many of our greatest and brightest stars are claiming they will go entire raids without touching the ability. We would like to see the activation cost and sustaining costs for Enraged Defense, removed.

 

Vengeance/Vigilance DPS Variation

 

Vengeance, my spec of choice and my most loved playing style in the entire game. Having played every single Imperial class- six of which are currently level fifty-five- my juggernaut, first, has survived the test of time as my favorite utilizing this spec. From the carnage marauder, to the lethal-engineer sniper, the infiltration operative, the arsenal merc, the pyro-powertech, the lightning sorc and Madness and Deception assassins, I have extensive experience with the damage capabilities of all classes within this game and it was Vengeance that stuck with me the most.

 

Many of us within the Vengeance/Vigilance community pride ourselves on what we feel is one of, if not the, highest skill cap specializations in the game. We like to claim that it takes a lot of concentration and effort to achieve the same DPS numbers that other classes can do with simplistic rotations, or spammable abilities. In reality, while some of this may be true, it is not so much a skill cap that limits the Vengeance/Vigilance Juggernaut/Guardian, but rather the RNG gods.

 

The Vengeance Juggernaut is perhaps the most luck dependent spec in the entire game. This all comes down to one talent within our tree, known as rampage. In addition to our concerns around the Rampage talent, there are concerns about our lack of any sort of offensive cooldown, removing the benefit of Savagery upon Vicious Throw and the near useless talent Seething Hatred.

 

Concern #1) Rampage

 

Our greatest concern within the Juggernaut/Guardian community, one that we would gladly shutup about the other concerns we have, to have this one addressed. As a Vengeance Juggernaut, our greatest source of damage is going to be A) Ravage and B) our damage over time effects. Depending on our luck with the RNG gods, A or B could be higher than the other.

 

The concern with this ability is that it has a relatively low chance to trigger, when compared to other classes that are similarly dependent on ability triggers for their greatest source of damage, most notably the Mercenary with their trigger that revolves around their talent "Unload." Now I know this is when some one with a basic understanding of statistics will step in and say "We have two abilities, with a 30% chance to trigger rampage each, statistically we have a 51% chance to hit our rampage trigger when used in conjunction." Yes this is true, but that is theoretical statistics. In reality, every time we use either Impale or Shatter, our two abilities that can grant us rampage, we always face a 70% fail chance. Previous successes or failures do not influence this chance, it is always a 70% fail chance. Theoretical statistics may state that missing six rampages in a row has only an 11.7% chance of occurring, ask any person who mains this spec and they will tell you that this has happened to them, more times than not. Our community feels that the trigger rate behind rampage is far too low, especially considering that the two abilities that have the capability of activating Rampage have a nine second and twelve second cool-down on each. To quote a friend of mine, Artorias "Being good at Vengeance is about how good you can make your down time." Every time we miss a rampage trigger, it will be 9-12seconds before we can attempt our trigger again, thus putting us into a downtime and resulting in lower DPS. For each rampage trigger we miss, especially when they are compounding misses, one after another. The impact on our DPS becomes greater and greater, to the point where it simply cannot be recovered from any longer. It is not only the lack of Ravage that hurts either, as the secondary effect of a rampage trigger is three rage generation, 1/4 of our resource pool. Going extended periods without rampage triggers will cause extreme strain upon our resource pool, thus continuing to add to already decreasing DPS totals. Even when we do hit our Rampage trigger, the internal cool down of Rampage sits at nine seconds, higher than any ability that functions similarly to it, forcing the Vengeance Juggernaut to manage cool downs like a hawk, less we miss potential Rampage triggers.

 

Compared to classes with similarly functioning abilities, the Arsenal Mercenary and the Pyro Powertech(Mercenary too but I shall just use the Powertech for this comparison) we feel that the Vengeance Juggernaut has really received the short end of the stick on this one. The arsenal Mercenary for example, derives a large portion of their damage from their ability Unload. Which can have its cool down reset by the talent Barrage and in addition have its damage increased by 25%. Barrage can be triggered by tracer missile and power shot. Mercenaries to my knowledge don't really use power shot, so we'll just say Tracer Missile triggers it. This trigger chance sits at 45%, 15% higher than Rampage, and is reliant on an ability that has no cool down at all and is a core ability within the Arsenal rotation, stacking heat signatures for their massive damaging ability Heat Seeker. Not to mention the internal lockout on this trigger is six seconds, three seconds lower than Rampage.

 

The Pyro Powertech(Mercenary too) also has a similar functionality revolving around their Railshot ability. Railshot can have its cool down reset by the talent Prototype Particle Accelerator (PPA). In addition when PPA is triggered, the next Rail Shot used by the Powertech is free, when used in conjunction with the talent Super Heated Rail, this essentially functions as a -8 heat ability. PPA is triggered by Flame Burst at a 45% a spammable ability or by Rocket Punch at a 60% chance. While Rocket Punch is not a spammable ability, it operates on the same cool down timer of Impale, nine seconds, yet has twice the chance to trigger the associated talent. PPA also functions on a six second internal compared to the nine second internal of Rampage.

 

There have been many suggestions on how to fix Rampage, they can be found in this thread. My personal favorite revision would be one voiced by Shadowhipsers

 

 

Add a reduction to ravage CD on rampage, of 5/10/15 seconds per point, and leave the rest the same, this would mean if you get a string of unlucky procs, you do not get badly screwed over with downtime on bleeds or ravage trying to work around the natural ravage CD of 30seconds

 

 

His other idea I liked as well, but I feel this suggestion would be the most beneficial to Ravage, the playstyle remains entirely unchanged, but the reduction to the natural CD on ravage being shortened really helps the baseline DPS of the class. The upper average of Rampage triggers sit at roughly a fifteen second window as is. Many members of our community have come up with equally terrific suggestions though, that can all be found within that thread.

 

Concern #2) Vicious Throw and the Savagery talent, the lack of an offensive cooldown and the uselessness of Seething Hatred.(I know it's a lot in one concern but they all go hand in hand

 

Back before Rise of The Hutt Cartel Savagery functioned as a blanket increase to Force Scream and Vicious Throw granted by the abilities Impale and Shatter. A large reason behind the Vengeance Juggernaut seeking to stack roughly 33% crit-rating was to offer automatic to near automatic critical hits on these abilities. 2.0 Redsigned this, removing the benefit that Vicious throw gained from this talent, and instead allowing it to grant Savagery instead. Savagery itself, being redesigned to be a two stack talent, offering an increased 50% chance to score a critical hit per stack, at a maximum of two. While thankful for the guaranteed, critical on Force Scream, many in the Juggernaut/Guardian community feel that Vicious Throw should not have lost the benefit of Savagery, this largely ties in with another major concern our community has, and that is the lack of an offensive cool down of any sort.

 

Out of all the the DPS classes and specializations in the game, the Vengeance Juggernaut is the only one without any sort of offensive cool down. Already subject to extreme DPS variations, we often have to rely on Adrenals or Relics to make up for when we run into trouble with our Rampage triggers, rather than utilizing these to further enhance our "Burst Mode" like that of other DPSers. Bloodthirst, Frenzy, Target Acquired, Sniper Volley, Thermal Sensor Override, Power Surge, Explosive Fuel, Polarity Shift, Recklessness, Overcharged Sabre, Acid Blade, Stim Boost, to even Enrage if you are a rage specialized Marauder or Juggernaut, every other class has something (beyond simply adding extra resource to your pool) to add some sort of burst capability to their rotations, several have two and Rage Marauders get three! Back before 2.0 this was not a concern at all. Vengeance made up for this lack of an offensive CD by having a 100% critical chance execution move (if geared and specialized correctly). This made us masters of the execution phase (29% or less health) and essentially became our offensive cool down. With Vicious Throw no longer benefiting from savagery, we no longer have that to make up for our lack of any offensive cool down.

 

There have been several suggestions within our community on how to address this issue.

 

1) Let Vicious throw gain benefit from Savagery again, have Force Scream and Vicious throw consume one stack of it upon use. This would give us back our same clean-up role as before 2.0

 

2) Take Seething Hatred, and turn it into an offensive cool down. There have been many suggestions for this, making bleeds have a 100% critical chance for X-amount of seconds. Increasing Armor penetration or damage for a set time, or even simply automatically finishing Ravage's cool down on a separate internal CD from Rampage.

 

Many people view Seething Hatred as a useless ability, it has no use within a PvE environment outside of initial leveling and the Vengeance Juggernaut's role in PvP is to be an initiater and constantly in the thick of the fight. You are more times killed before exiting combat. Having Seething Hatred as a functioning burst ability will help both PvE and PvP juggernauts significantly. PvP is all about burst, so having an offensive cool down would be greatly improve Vengeance's game. And you don't need me to tell you about how many of the PvE encounters now-a-days have a soft enrage DPS race that requires incredible burst from your DPS.

 

General Juggernaut Raid Utility

 

I feel this is often where the Juggernaut/Guardian community begins to bicker about what we need and what we don't need. Some claim what we bring to a raid in terms of utility is lacking, while others feel that the taunts and the benefit from intercede are plenty to help your raid group. I must confess I lean more towards our utility is sound side of things, but I will not let that interfere with addressing the concerns that many in the community have on our overall utility to a raid group. However, let's be honest with ourselves first, Bloodthirst really is the next best thing since sliced bread, and honestly adding something of that caliber to our class, will make us overpowered when combined with what we already do bring. From being some of the tankiest (Tankiest if you're vengeance) DPS in the game, utilizing taunts to help with boss swaps, add management and even becoming emergency tanks for a few seconds while a main tank is down, to a mobile threat drop for healers or other DPS. Yes I know many of you will claim, all of that is situational, all of that will never happen if you're in a good group. To be fair guys, a good group dosnt need Bloodthirst, a good group dosnt need Balistic Shield. Utility is like a tool-box. You have a ton of tools, but may only need one for a particular job, you're not gonna just take the one tool and leave your tool-box at home. You will bring your entire tool-box with you.

 

Many within our community, like all other communities that aren't Marauders or Snipers, have been calmouring for some sort of raid wide utility beyond our armor reduction as the armor reduction we do bring can be granted by Mercenaries, Snipers, and of-course, Juggernaut tanks. Outside of that, everything the Juggernaut can bring to the table is completely situational.

 

The main suggestions I have seen in terms of Juggernauts utility have all been based around the redesigned alacrity system. The first, and the most potent of these would be a raidwide ability similar to Bloodthirst.

 

Call to War/Call to Arms

 

300-second CD- Offers 30% alacrity for 15 seconds to your group.

 

This actually I find to be a unique ability and also throws into effect differing group frame setup. As like Bloodthirst it will only benefit your frame, being four people at any given time. Do you put the Juggernaut with the healers, or do you have them sitting with your DPS to also benefit from Bloodthirst. What if your Juggernaut is not specialized for DPS, but rather tanking. Do you remove one of your DPS from a potential Bloodthirst (if you have a marauder) so others can benefit from this alacrity boost. I feel it would make groups think about their setup a bit more.

 

The other suggestion I saw was to give intercede a secondary effect, ontop of the slight damage and threat reduction, an alacrity boost would be granted to the target for five seconds. This would give more of a reason beyond forcing threat drops to use intercede and promote further micro-management within raid environments, aka greater skill..

 

 

As with everything in this thread, this is a rough draft, open to all sorts of editing. I also will admit that I personally do not feel utility is that big of a juggernaut issue but I went ahead and threw it on as we are discussing all posible changes as is. Forgive misspellings and grammar errors, I am dyslexic and started this at about 2am, it is now 4am.

Edited August 15, 2013 by EnalisNailo

[Luckygunslinger]

QUOTE

 

 

*applauds* Amazing post.

[Loufu]

-Disclaimer: References to other classes and specs are -NOT- claims of another class/spec being overpowered or demands for nerfs, they are simply for drawing comparisons between the Juggernauts/Guardians and other classes/specs. In addition many references within the following will refer to the Juggernaut versions of the skills, as my knowledge of the mirrored names of the guardian side is limited.-

 

Since the deployment of The Rise of the Hutt Cartel and the 2.0 class balance reworkings, and arguably even before previously mentioned events, there have been many concerns within the Sith Juggernaut and Jedi Guardian communities. As we now move closer towards patch 2.4 and have had the opportunity for extensive rotation, priority eperimentation; we as a community feel that many of these concerns have yet to be addressed, chiefly among them are the applications of the talent "Enraged Defense/Focused Defense", the high variance in potential and theoretical DPS capabilities within "Vengeance/Vigilance", and our roles in terms of utility and viability within a pve/pvp group environment beyond the simple capacity of a capable DPS.

 

Enraged Defense

 

Enraged Defense has been a source of many heated debates since its addition to the Juggernaut arsenal. Functioning both as an aggro drop and a heal, on paper, and even in certain situational events, is a great ability- primarily within the realm of PVP. Vengeance, arguably, has the best enraged defense of the three juggernaut specs. The Deafening Defense perk offering the Vengeance Juggernaut increased damage reduction at all times, on top of an extra 15% damage reduction upon activation.

 

Concern #1) Activation and sustaining costs of Enraged Defense-

 

Enraged defense is the only DPS threat reduction cooldown in the game that has a resource cost tied to it, and a rather high costing one at that. Continuing to use the Vengeance Juggernaut as the model for this ability, as they, as stated earlier, gain the most overall benefit from this ability, use 1/4 of their entire resource to activate this ability (Four Rage required, three Rage consumed as Shien form refunds one unit of rage.) Outside of Vengeance this activation cost jumps to a staggering 1/3. In addition to the initial cost of activation, each successive hit the Juggernaut takes, drains another unit of rage to trigger the secondary effect of Enraged Defense, being a heal for 3% of maximum health. As stated earlier, this is the only threat drop in the game that has any sort of cost associated with it, a cost many in the community feel is far greater than the return we receive from the ability itself.

Concern#2) Functionality vs's other free threat drops.

 

While a self heal sounds like a great utility to have, with the current gear levels within this game, and the actual percentage of a heal we get, it leaves much to be desired, especially at such a high cost. Using my own Juggernaut as an example, in optimized 72's and all four class buffs, I have just shy of 34,000 health. A 3% heal from that would be 1,020 health regained. That is 576 damage less than my basic auto attack.

The healing secondary behind this ability functions solely to take the sting off of major hits, so long as we are being beaten on by something of our level, we will be taking damage, perhaps not a lot of damage while this ability is active, but damage none-the-less. Our first comparison will be against our counterpart, the Marauder. Once again I will be drawing upon the Vengeance Juggernaut for the sake of these comparisons. The Marauder's threat drop of choice is the ability Force Camouflage, this ability is free and operates upon a forty-five second cool down timer, the exact same timer that Enraged Defense operates on. Force-Camouflage has no sustaining cost to it either and offers the marauder a temporary stealth. Be-it PVE or PVP this stealth essentially forces a target swap off the Maruader, in addition offering a 50% blanket damage reduction. Carnage Marauders can also specialize this ability to remove all movement impairing effects.

 

Using my rough average attack damage on Impale, a go-to move for the Vengeance Juggernaut, of 4800 we already see some drastic disparities. A Juggernaut utilizing the 15%+1020 heal will still be taking roughly 3,060 points of damage, whilst the Marauder getting hit with this same ability, a rather difficult feat considering their stealth, would only take roughly 2400 points of damage, give or take a few percent of damage to factor in the differences in armor, we have an inferior threat drop for a far greater cost.

 

The other comparison being drawn frequantly within this community is that to the force-cloak that Assassins have available to them. A 100% threat drop, ontop of a 100% cost free drop that also offers "Virtually Undetectable" stealth for 10seconds, though at the cost of greatly reduced healing. Deception assassins can also specialize this ability to automatically refresh the cooldown on their resource regeneration ability, something unique to the Assassin, but also going to show that other classes have access to incredibly powerful threat reductions at no cost, and similar or equal cool down timers.

 

Sorcerer, Sniper, Operative, Mercenary, Powertech, and of course their republic mirrors, all have access to resource free threat drops many with the ability to add additional utility onto their threat drops as well. Even with the added utility of the 15% damage reduction offered by the Vengeance tree, many of the members of the Juggernaut/Guardian community are left wondering why our threat drop has such a high cost to it. In both PvE and PvP using it will absolutely destroy the outgoing damage or force us to utilize our resource generation CD in conjunction with Enraged Defense.

 

Our threat drop and added utility is no greater than that of a Marauders, arguably worse even due to the lack of stealth and lower damage reduction offered. I feel it is safe to say, that the entirety of the Juggernaut/Guardian community feel this ability -Must- be re-examined, that the costs far out weigh any sort of benefit that can be obtained through this ability, many of our greatest and brightest stars are claiming they will go entire raids without touching the ability. We would like to see the activation cost and sustaining costs for Enraged Defense, removed.

 

Vengeance/Vigilance DPS Variation

 

Vengeance, my spec of choice and my most loved playing style in the entire game. Having played every single Imperial class- six of which are currently level fifty-five- my juggernaut, first, has survived the test of time as my favorite utilizing this spec. From the carnage marauder, to the lethal-engineer sniper, the infiltration operative, the arsenal merc, the pyro-powertech, the lightning sorc and Madness and Deception assassins, I have extensive experience with the damage capabilities of all classes within this game and it was Vengeance that stuck with me the most.

 

Many of us within the Vengeance/Vigilance community pride ourselves on what we feel is one of, if not the, highest skill cap specializations in the game. We like to claim that it takes a lot of concentration and effort to achieve the same DPS numbers that other classes can do with simplistic rotations, or spammable abilities. In reality, while some of this may be true, it is not so much a skill cap that limits the Vengeance/Vigilance Juggernaut/Guardian, but rather the RNG gods.

 

The Vengeance Juggernaut is perhaps the most luck dependent spec in the entire game. This all comes down to one talent within our tree, known as rampage. In addition to our concerns around the Rampage talent, there are concerns about our lack of any sort of offensive cooldown, removing the benefit of Savagery upon Vicious Throw and the near useless talent Seething Hatred.

 

Concern #1) Rampage

 

Our greatest concern within the Juggernaut/Guardian community, one that we would gladly shutup about the other concerns we have, to have this one addressed. As a Vengeance Juggernaut, our greatest source of damage is going to be A) Ravage and B) our damage over time effects. Depending on our luck with the RNG gods, A or B could be higher than the other.

 

The concern with this ability is that it has a relatively low chance to trigger, when compared to other classes that are similarly dependent on ability triggers for their greatest source of damage, most notably the Mercenary with their trigger that revolves around their talent "Unload." Now I know this is when some one with a basic understanding of statistics will step in and say "We have two abilities, with a 30% chance to trigger rampage each, statistically we have a 51% chance to hit our rampage trigger when used in conjunction." Yes this is true, but that is theoretical statistics. In reality, every time we use either Impale or Shatter, our two abilities that can grant us rampage, we always face a 70% fail chance. Previous successes or failures do not influence this chance, it is always a 70% fail chance. Theoretical statistics may state that missing six rampages in a row has only an 11.7% chance of occurring, ask any person who mains this spec and they will tell you that this has happened to them, more times than not. Our community feels that the trigger rate behind rampage is far too low, especially considering that the two abilities that have the capability of activating Rampage have a nine second and twelve second cool-down on each. To quote a friend of mine, Artorias "Being good at Vengeance is about how good you can make your down time." Every time we miss a rampage trigger, it will be 9-12seconds before we can attempt our trigger again, thus putting us into a downtime and resulting in lower DPS. For each rampage trigger we miss, especially when they are compounding misses, one after another. The impact on our DPS becomes greater and greater, to the point where it simply cannot be recovered from any longer. It is not only the lack of Ravage that hurts either, as the secondary effect of a rampage trigger is three rage generation, 1/4 of our resource pool. Going extended periods without rampage triggers will cause extreme strain upon our resource pool, thus continuing to add to already decreasing DPS totals. Even when we do hit our Rampage trigger, the internal cool down of Rampage sits at nine seconds, higher than any ability that functions similarly to it, forcing the Vengeance Juggernaut to manage cool downs like a hawk, less we miss potential Rampage triggers.

 

Compared to classes with similarly functioning abilities, the Arsenal Mercenary and the Pyro Powertech(Mercenary too but I shall just use the Powertech for this comparison) we feel that the Vengeance Juggernaut has really received the short end of the stick on this one. The arsenal Mercenary for example, derives a large portion of their damage from their ability Unload. Which can have its cool down reset by the talent Barrage and in addition have its damage increased by 25%. Barrage can be triggered by tracer missile and power shot. Mercenaries to my knowledge don't really use power shot, so we'll just say Tracer Missile triggers it. This trigger chance sits at 45%, 15% higher than Rampage, and is reliant on an ability that has no cool down at all and is a core ability within the Arsenal rotation, stacking heat signatures for their massive damaging ability Heat Seeker. Not to mention the internal lockout on this trigger is six seconds, three seconds lower than Rampage.

 

The Pyro Powertech(Mercenary too) also has a similar functionality revolving around their Railshot ability. Railshot can have its cool down reset by the talent Prototype Particle Accelerator (PPA). In addition when PPA is triggered, the next Rail Shot used by the Powertech is free, when used in conjunction with the talent Super Heated Rail, this essentially functions as a -8 heat ability. PPA is triggered by Flame Burst at a 45% a spammable ability or by Rocket Punch at a 60% chance. While Rocket Punch is not a spammable ability, it operates on the same cool down timer of Impale, nine seconds, yet has twice the chance to trigger the associated talent. PPA also functions on a six second internal compared to the nine second internal of Rampage.

 

There have been many suggestions on how to fix Rampage, they can be found in this thread. My personal favorite revision would be one voiced by Shadowhipsers

 

 

 

His other idea I liked as well, but I feel this suggestion would be the most beneficial to Ravage, the playstyle remains entirely unchanged, but the reduction to the natural CD on ravage being shortened really helps the baseline DPS of the class. The upper average of Rampage triggers sit at roughly a fifteen second window as is. Many members of our community have come up with equally terrific suggestions though, that can all be found within that thread.

 

Concern #2) Vicious Throw and the Savagery talent, the lack of an offensive cooldown and the uselessness of Seething Hatred.(I know it's a lot in one concern but they all go hand in hand

 

Back before Rise of The Hutt Cartel Savagery functioned as a blanket increase to Force Scream and Vicious Throw granted by the abilities Impale and Shatter. A large reason behind the Vengeance Juggernaut seeking to stack roughly 33% crit-rating was to offer automatic to near automatic critical hits on these abilities. 2.0 Redsigned this, removing the benefit that Vicious throw gained from this talent, and instead allowing it to grant Savagery instead. Savagery itself, being redesigned to be a two stack talent, offering an increased 50% chance to score a critical hit per stack, at a maximum of two. While thankful for the guaranteed, critical on Force Scream, many in the Juggernaut/Guardian community feel that Vicious Throw should not have lost the benefit of Savagery, this largely ties in with another major concern our community has, and that is the lack of an offensive cool down of any sort.

 

Out of all the the DPS classes and specializations in the game, the Vengeance Juggernaut is the only one without any sort of offensive cool down. Already subject to extreme DPS variations, we often have to rely on Adrenals or Relics to make up for when we run into trouble with our Rampage triggers, rather than utilizing these to further enhance our "Burst Mode" like that of other DPSers. Bloodthirst, Frenzy, Target Acquired, Sniper Volley, Thermal Sensor Override, Power Surge, Explosive Fuel, Polarity Shift, Recklessness, Overcharged Sabre, Acid Blade, Stim Boost, to even Enrage if you are a rage specialized Marauder or Juggernaut, every other class has something (beyond simply adding extra resource to your pool) to add some sort of burst capability to their rotations, several have two and Rage Marauders get three! Back before 2.0 this was not a concern at all. Vengeance made up for this lack of an offensive CD by having a 100% critical chance execution move (if geared and specialized correctly). This made us masters of the execution phase (29% or less health) and essentially became our offensive cool down. With Vicious Throw no longer benefiting from savagery, we no longer have that to make up for our lack of any offensive cool down.

 

There have been several suggestions within our community on how to address this issue.

 

1) Let Vicious throw gain benefit from Savagery again, have Force Scream and Vicious throw consume one stack of it upon use. This would give us back our same clean-up role as before 2.0

 

2) Take Seething Hatred, and turn it into an offensive cool down. There have been many suggestions for this, making bleeds have a 100% critical chance for X-amount of seconds. Increasing Armor penetration or damage for a set time, or even simply automatically finishing Ravage's cool down on a separate internal CD from Rampage.

 

Many people view Seething Hatred as a useless ability, it has no use within a PvE environment outside of initial leveling and the Vengeance Juggernaut's role in PvP is to be an initiater and constantly in the thick of the fight. You are more times killed before exiting combat. Having Seething Hatred as a functioning burst ability will help both PvE and PvP juggernauts significantly. PvP is all about burst, so having an offensive cool down would be greatly improve Vengeance's game. And you don't need me to tell you about how many of the PvE encounters now-a-days have a soft enrage DPS race that requires incredible burst from your DPS.

 

General Juggernaut Raid Utility

 

I feel this is often where the Juggernaut/Guardian community begins to bicker about what we need and what we don't need. Some claim what we bring to a raid in terms of utility is lacking, while others feel that the taunts and the benefit from intercede are plenty to help your raid group. I must confess I lean more towards our utility is sound side of things, but I will not let that interfere with addressing the concerns that many in the community have on our overall utility to a raid group. However, let's be honest with ourselves first, Bloodthirst really is the next best thing since sliced bread, and honestly adding something of that caliber to our class, will make us overpowered when combined with what we already do bring. From being some of the tankiest (Tankiest if you're vengeance) DPS in the game, utilizing taunts to help with boss swaps, add management and even becoming emergency tanks for a few seconds while a main tank is down, to a mobile threat drop for healers or other DPS. Yes I know many of you will claim, all of that is situational, all of that will never happen if you're in a good group. To be fair guys, a good group dosnt need Bloodthirst, a good group dosnt need Balistic Shield. Utility is like a tool-box. You have a ton of tools, but may only need one for a particular job, you're not gonna just take the one tool and leave your tool-box at home. You will bring your entire tool-box with you.

 

Many within our community, like all other communities that aren't Marauders or Snipers, have been calmouring for some sort of raid wide utility beyond our armor reduction as the armor reduction we do bring can be granted by Mercenaries, Snipers, and of-course, Juggernaut tanks. Outside of that, everything the Juggernaut can bring to the table is completely situational.

 

The main suggestions I have seen in terms of Juggernauts utility have all been based around the redesigned alacrity system. The first, and the most potent of these would be a raidwide ability similar to Bloodthirst.

 

Call to War/Call to Arms

 

300-second CD- Offers 30% alacrity for 15 seconds to your group.

 

This actually I find to be a unique ability and also throws into effect differing group frame setup. As like Bloodthirst it will only benefit your frame, being four people at any given time. Do you put the Juggernaut with the healers, or do you have them sitting with your DPS to also benefit from Bloodthirst. What if your Juggernaut is not specialized for DPS, but rather tanking. Do you remove one of your DPS from a potential Bloodthirst (if you have a marauder) so others can benefit from this alacrity boost. I feel it would make groups think about their setup a bit more.

 

The other suggestion I saw was to give intercede a secondary effect, ontop of the slight damage and threat reduction, an alacrity boost would be granted to the target for five seconds. This would give more of a reason beyond forcing threat drops to use intercede and promote further micro-management within raid environments, aka greater skill..

 

 

As with everything in this thread, this is a rough draft, open to all sorts of editing. I also will admit that I personally do not feel utility is that big of a juggernaut issue but I went ahead and threw it on as we are discussing all posible changes as is. Forgive misspellings and grammar errors, I am dyslexic and started this at about 2am, it is now 4am.

Wow, EnalisNailo for the new Juggernaut's Representative!

[EnalisNailo]

Wow, EnalisNailo for the new Juggernaut's Representative!

 

Thanks ^.^

[Luckygunslinger]

Wow, EnalisNailo for the new Juggernaut's Representative!

 

Yes, then I can pull his strings, mwuahahahah! But yeah, Seriously good work Enalis. I'll give you a hug next time I see you on fleet.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Luckygunslinger

[UncleOst]

-Disclaimer: References to other classes and specs are -NOT- claims of another class/spec being overpowered nor are demands for nerfs. They are simply for drawing comparisons between the Juggernauts/Guardians and other classes/specs. In addition many references within the following post will refer to the Juggernaut versions of the skills, as my personal knowledge of the mirrored names of the guardian side is limited.-

 

Since the deployment of The Rise of the Hutt Cartel and the 2.0 class balance reworkings, and arguably even before previously mentioned events, there have been many concerns within the Sith Juggernaut and Jedi Guardian communities. As we now move closer towards patch 2.4, we as a community are excited for the possibilities that many of these concerns will be addressed.

 

Specifically, we see:

 

"Enraged Defense/Focused Defense".

 

"The high variance in potential and theoretical DPS capabilities within "Vengeance/Vigilance"

 

"Roles in terms of utility and viability within a pve/pvp group environment beyond the simple capacity of a capable DPS."

 

 

 

 

Enraged Defense

 

 

 

Enraged Defense has been a source of heated debate since its addition to the Juggernaut arsenal. Functioning both as an aggro drop and a heal, on paper, and even in certain situational events, is a great ability- primarily within the realm of PVP. Vengeance tree has the best enraged defense of the three juggernaut specs. The Deafening Defense perk within the Vengeance tree, increases damage reduction at all times, on top of an extra 15% damage reduction upon activation.

 

Concern #1) Activation and sustaining costs of Enraged Defense-

 

Enraged defense is the only DPS threat reduction cooldown in the game that has a resource cost tied to it, and a rather high costing one at that. Continuing to use the Vengeance Juggernaut as the model for this ability, they gain the most overall benefit from this ability. They use 1/4 of their entire resource to activate this ability (Four Rage required, three Rage consumed as Shien form refunds one unit of rage.) Outside of Vengeance this activation cost jumps to a staggering 1/3. In addition to the initial cost of activation, each successive hit the Juggernaut takes, drains another unit of rage to trigger the secondary effect of Enraged Defense, being a heal for 3% of maximum health. As stated earlier, this is the only threat drop in the game that has any sort of cost associated with it, a cost many in the community feel is far greater than the return we receive from the ability itself.

 

Concern#2) Functionality vs's other free threat drops.

 

While a self heal sounds like a great utility to have, the actual percentage of a heal we get leaves much to be desired, especially at such a high cost. Using my own Juggernaut as an example, in optimized 72's and all four class buffs, I have just shy of 34,000 health. A 3% heal from that would be 1,020 health regained. That is 576 damage less than my basic auto attack. The point is we would like to see a revamp, for the applications are extremely situational and the Heal/Rage ratios are too expensive.

 

In regards to Threat Dumps,

 

Our first comparison will be against our counterpart, the Marauder. Once again I will be drawing upon the Vengeance Juggernaut for the sake of these comparisons. The Marauder's threat drop of choice is the ability Force Camouflage, this ability is free and operates upon a forty-five second cool down timer, the exact same timer that Enraged Defense operates on. Force-Camouflage has no sustaining cost to it either and offers the marauder a temporary stealth. Be-it PVE or PVP this stealth essentially forces a target swap off the Maruader, in addition offering a 50% blanket damage reduction. Carnage Marauders can also specialize this ability to remove all movement impairing effects.

 

Another Threat Dump comparison being drawn frequently within this community is the force-cloak that Assassins have available to them. A 100% threat drop, ontop of a 100% cost free drop that also offers "Virtually Undetectable" stealth for 10seconds, though at the cost of greatly reduced healing. Deception assassins can also specialize this ability to automatically refresh the cooldown on their resource regeneration ability, something unique to the Assassin, but also going to show that other classes have access to incredibly powerful threat reductions at no cost, and similar or equal cool down timers. **Yet they seek equality for main tank/main boss applications.**

 

Sorcerer, Sniper, Operative, Mercenary, Powertech, and of course their republic mirrors, all have access to resource free threat drops many with the ability to add additional utility onto their threat drops as well. Even with the added utility of the 15% damage reduction offered by the Vengeance tree, many of the members of the Juggernaut/Guardian community are left wondering why our threat drop has such a high cost to it. In both PvE and PvP using it will absolutely destroy the outgoing damage or force us to utilize our resource generation CD in conjunction with Enraged Defense.

 

Our threat drop and added utility is no greater than that of a Marauders, arguably worse even due to the lack of stealth and lower damage reduction offered. I feel it is safe to say, that the entire Juggernaut/Guardian community feel this ability -Must- be re-examined, that the costs far out weigh any sort of benefit. Important to note that benefits obtained through this ability, many of our greatest and brightest stars are claiming they will go entire raids without even using! We would like to see the activation cost and sustaining costs for Enraged Defense, removed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Vengeance/Vigilance DPS Variation

 

Vengeance, my spec of choice is my most loved playing style in the entire game. Having played every single Imperial class- six of which are currently level fifty-five- my juggernaut, first, has survived the test of time as my favorite utilizing this spec. From the carnage marauder, to the lethal-engineer sniper, the infiltration operative, the arsenal merc, the pyro-powertech, the lightning sorc and Madness and Deception assassins, I have extensive experience with the damage capabilities of all classes within this game and it was Vengeance that stuck with me the most.

 

Many of us within the Vengeance/Vigilance community pride ourselves on what we feel is one of, if not the, highest skill cap specializations in the game. We like to claim that it takes a lot of concentration and effort to achieve the same DPS numbers that other classes can do with simplistic rotations, or spammable abilities. In reality, while some of this may be true, it is not so much a skill cap that limits the Vengeance/Vigilance Juggernaut/Guardian, but rather the RNG gods.

 

The Vengeance Juggernaut is perhaps the most luck dependent spec in the entire game. We specifically wish to look at the ability Rampage. In addition to the Rampage talent, there are other concerns about the near useless talent Seething Hatred.

Concern #1) Rampage

 

As a Vengeance Juggernaut, our greatest source of damage is going to be A) Ravage and B) our damage over time effects. Depending on our luck with the RNG gods, A or B could be higher than the other.

 

The concern with this ability is that it has a relatively low chance to trigger, when compared to other classes that are similarly dependent on ability triggers for their greatest source of damage, most notably the Mercenary with their trigger that revolves around their talent "Unload." Now I know this is when some one with a basic understanding of statistics will step in and say "We have two abilities, with a 30% chance to trigger rampage each, statistically we have a 51% chance to hit our rampage trigger when used in conjunction." Yes this is true, but that is theoretical statistics. In reality, every time we use either Impale or Shatter, our two abilities that can grant us rampage, we always face a 70% fail chance. Previous successes or failures do not influence this chance, it is always a 70% fail chance. Theoretical statistics may state that missing six rampages in a row has only an 11.7% chance of occurring, ask any person who mains this spec and they will tell you that this has happened to them, more times than not.

 

Our community feels that the trigger rate behind rampage is far too low, especially considering that the two abilities that have the capability of activating Rampage have a nine second and twelve second cool-down on each. To quote a friend of mine, Artorias

"Being good at Vengeance is about how good you can make your down time." Every time we miss a rampage trigger, it will be 9-12seconds before we can attempt our trigger again, thus putting us into a downtime and resulting in lower DPS. For each rampage trigger we miss, especially when they are compounding misses, one after another. The impact on our DPS becomes greater and greater, to the point where it simply cannot be recovered from any longer. It is not only the lack of Ravage that hurts either, as the secondary effect of a rampage trigger is three rage generation, 1/4 of our resource pool. Going extended periods without rampage triggers will cause extreme strain upon our resource pool, thus continuing to add to already decreasing DPS totals. Even when we do hit our Rampage trigger, the internal cool down of Rampage sits at nine seconds, higher than any ability that functions similarly to it, forcing the Vengeance Juggernaut to manage cool downs like a hawk, less we miss potential Rampage triggers.

 

Compared to classes with similarly functioning abilities, the Arsenal Mercenary and the Pyro Powertech(Mercenary too but I shall just use the Powertech for this comparison) we feel that the Vengeance Juggernaut has really received the short end of the stick on this one. The arsenal Mercenary for example, derives a large portion of their damage from their ability Unload. Which can have its cool down reset by the talent Barrage and in addition have its damage increased by 25%. Barrage can be triggered by tracer missile and power shot. Mercenaries to my knowledge don't really use power shot, so we'll just say Tracer Missile triggers it. This trigger chance sits at 45%, 15% higher than Rampage, and is reliant on an ability that has no cool down at all and is a core ability within the Arsenal rotation, stacking heat signatures for their massive damaging ability Heat Seeker. Not to mention the internal lockout on this trigger is six seconds, three seconds lower than Rampage.

 

The Pyro Powertech(Mercenary too) also has a similar functionality revolving around their Railshot ability. Railshot can have its cool down reset by the talent Prototype Particle Accelerator (PPA). In addition when PPA is triggered, the next Rail Shot used by the Powertech is free, when used in conjunction with the talent Super Heated Rail, this essentially functions as a -8 heat ability. PPA is triggered by Flame Burst at a 45% a spammable ability or by Rocket Punch at a 60% chance. While Rocket Punch is not a spammable ability, it operates on the same cool down timer of Impale, nine seconds, yet has twice the chance to trigger the associated talent. PPA also functions on a six second internal compared to the nine second internal of Rampage.

 

 

There have been many suggestions on how to fix Rampage, they can be found in this thread. I feel these suggestions would be the most beneficial to Ravage, the playstyle remains entirely unchanged, but the reduction to the natural CD on ravage being shortened really helps the baseline DPS of the class. The upper average of Rampage triggers sit at roughly a fifteen second window as is. Many members of our community have come up with equally terrific suggestions though, that can all be found within that thread.

 

 

 

Concern #2) Vicious Throw and the Savagery talent, the lack of an offensive cooldown and the uselessness of Seething Hatred.(I know it's a lot in one concern but they all go hand in hand

 

Back before Rise of The Hutt Cartel Savagery functioned as a blanket increase to Force Scream and Vicious Throw granted by the abilities Impale and Shatter. A large reason behind the Vengeance Juggernaut seeking to stack roughly 33% crit-rating was to offer automatic to near automatic critical hits on these abilities. 2.0 Redsigned this, removing the benefit that Vicious throw gained from this talent, and instead allowing it to grant Savagery instead. Savagery itself, being redesigned to be a two stack talent, offering an increased 50% chance to score a critical hit per stack, at a maximum of two. While thankful for the guaranteed, critical on Force Scream, many in the Juggernaut/Guardian community feel that Vicious Throw should not have lost the benefit of Savagery, this largely ties in with another major concern our community has, and that is the lack of an offensive cool down of any sort.

 

Out of all the the DPS classes and specializations in the game, the Vengeance Juggernaut is the only one without any sort of offensive cool down. Already subject to extreme DPS variations, we often have to rely on Adrenals or Relics to make up for when we run into trouble with our Rampage triggers, rather than utilizing these to further enhance our "Burst Mode" like that of other DPSers. Bloodthirst, Frenzy, Target Acquired, Sniper Volley, Thermal Sensor Override, Power Surge, Explosive Fuel, Polarity Shift, Recklessness, Overcharged Sabre, Acid Blade, Stim Boost, to even Enrage if you are a rage specialized Marauder or Juggernaut, every other class has something (beyond simply adding extra resource to your pool) to add some sort of burst capability to their rotations, several have two and Rage Marauders get three! Back before 2.0 this was not a concern at all. Vengeance made up for this lack of an offensive CD by having a 100% critical chance execution move (if geared and specialized correctly). This made us masters of the execution phase (29% or less health) and essentially became our offensive cool down. With Vicious Throw no longer benefiting from savagery, we no longer have that to make up for our lack of any offensive cool down.

 

There have been several suggestions within our community on how to address this issue.

 

1) Let Vicious throw gain benefit from Savagery again, have Force Scream and Vicious throw consume one stack of it upon use. This would give us back our same clean-up role as before 2.0

 

2) Take Seething Hatred, and turn it into an offensive cool down. There have been many suggestions for this, making bleeds have a 100% critical chance for X-amount of seconds. Increasing Armor penetration or damage for a set time, or even simply automatically finishing Ravage's cool down on a separate internal CD from Rampage.

 

Many people view Seething Hatred as a useless ability, it has no use within a PvE environment outside of initial leveling and the Vengeance Juggernaut's role in PvP is to be an initiater and constantly in the thick of the fight. You are more times killed before exiting combat. Having Seething Hatred as a functioning burst ability will help both PvE and PvP juggernauts significantly. PvP is all about burst, so having an offensive cool down would be greatly improve Vengeance's game. And you don't need me to tell you about how many of the PvE encounters now-a-days have a soft enrage DPS race that requires incredible burst from your DPS.

 

 

 

 

 

 

General Juggernaut Raid Utility

 

 

 

I feel this is often where the Juggernaut/Guardian community begins to bicker about what we need and what we don't need. Some claim what we bring to a raid in terms of utility is lacking, while others feel that the taunts and the benefit from intercede are plenty to help your raid group. I must confess I lean more towards our utility is sound side of things, but I will not let that interfere with addressing the concerns that many in the community have on our overall utility to a raid group.

 

Let's be honest with ourselves first, Bloodthirst really is the next best thing since sliced bread, and honestly adding something of that caliber to our class, will make us overpowered when combined with what we already do bring. Vengeance spec is more resilient than Rage spec. We can utilize taunts to help with boss swaps, add management and even becoming emergency tanks for a few seconds while a main tank is down, to a mobile threat drop for healers or other DPS. Yes I know many of you will claim, all of that is situational, all of that will never happen if you're in a good group. To be fair guys, a good group doesn't need Bloodthirst, a good group doesn't need Ballistic Shield. Utility is like a tool-box. You have a ton of tools, but may only need one for a particular job. You're not going to take the one tool and leave your tool-box at home. You will bring your entire tool-box with you.

 

Many within our community, have been exchanging ideas for some sort of raid wide utility agreement. We would seek enhanced armor reduction options or a raid-wide ability similar to Bloodthirst.

 

Call to War/Call to Arms

 

300-second CD- Offers an alacrity boost for 15 seconds to your group.

 

 

 

 

 

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I fixed a few grammatical errors and spelling. I also tweaked a few phrases while additionally respecting the original train of thought you presented. Anyone else think we should press the "submit" button on ^this version?