Why I think the Empire is better than Republic

[smartalectwo]

But the Jedi don't seem to actually teach it that way. They actively repress emotions, hence why they ban love and relationships. They don't face or understand these natural urges, nor learn how to stop them controlling them, they simply repress, and that is rarely ever a good thing.

 

Yes, there's a lot of self-discipline in their teachings. It may seem like repression, but it's actually mental conditioning, very zen.

 

Jedi seem rather closed minded in many areas despite there teachings (Ever tried playing a Light side Sith and trying to reason with a Jedi? Very rarely works . . .)

 

That's a point, the Jedi keep saying they want to bring balance to the Force, yet there version of balance seems to be a total annihilation of the Dark side with only the Light remaining. That doesn't seem very balanced to me . . .

 

It's not as vicious as you might think. The Jedi are opposed to those that choose to serve the Dark Side and actively promote spiritual imbalance, e.g. the Sith. To the Jedi mind, those people are doing vast harm to the galaxy, even if they don't know it. But the Jedi are not on a moral crusade to wipe out 'evil' - in the vast spread of the Republic there are good and bad people, but mostly, the Jedi tolerate this. That's the way things naturally are, the Jedi accept that. They usually only step in when the Republic agencies ask them to, or when they happen upon something that they can help with.

 

Balance is more of an equitable status quo. It's not about annihilating the Dark Side, it's about keeping it in its proper place, simmering on the underside of the galaxy rather than raging out of control consuming worlds etc.

Edited August 10, 2013 by smartalectwo

[Cyberwoman]

Just because both sides of a conflict have monsters doesn't mean they are equally bad. That's a really terrible false equivalency. Example: Allied soldiers assaulted and murdered plenty of civilians during WW2 (and every other war); does that mean the Allies and Axis were effectively the same? No.

 

Anyway, let's face it: the only reason the Sith keep coming back is because the Star Wars IP needs to keep selling material, and that means constantly introducing new eras and books and comic lines and and and...

 

I didn't mean to suggest they were equally bad, I just don't think that each group should be stereotyped in to 'Everyone in the Empire = evil' way of thinking. Yes, the Sith and the idea of the Empire are basically evil, but that doesn't mean they are no genuinely good people within its workings. In the same manor, the Republic and Jedi strive for good, but that doesn't mean there are no monsters or evil within its workings. That is all I was trying to say!

 

I should point out, although I don't think it is necessary, that I do not agree with the Empire in any moral or political way. I am as far left as you can get on almost everything, I would say! I just think in the context of the game and SW universe, they are a much more interesting side to explore.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Cyberwoman

[Cyberwoman]

Yes, there's a lot of self-discipline in their teachings. It may seem like repression, but it's actually mental conditioning, very zen.

 

It still seems like an odd way to go about it. I mean, as DmdShiva said in their wonderful post, by repressing or conditioning' these emotions they fail to actually control these emotions, so when if they do take over they fail to control them, hence why they fall to the Dark side. Knowledge seems important to the Jedi, only not the knowledge that comes with understand and leaning how to control your emotions rather then repress.

 

It's not as vicious as you might think. The Jedi are opposed to those that choose to serve the Dark Side and actively promote spiritual imbalance, e.g. the Sith. To the Jedi mind, those people are doing vast harm to the galaxy, even if they don't know it. But the Jedi are not on a moral crusade to wipe out 'evil' - in the vast spread of the Republic there are good and bad people, but mostly, the Jedi tolerate this. That's the way things naturally are, the Jedi accept that. They usually only step in when the Republic agencies ask them to, or when they happen upon something that they can help with.

 

Balance is more of an equitable status quo. It's not about annihilating the Dark Side, it's about keeping it in its proper place, simmering on the underside of the galaxy rather than raging out of control consuming worlds etc.

 

I think I see what you mean, although I can't help thinking again that I see little of that in the Jedi's actual teachings. There seem to be a fair few who I get the feeling they have a crusade to wipe out anything they do consider evil. Not a bad thing when it comes to the Sith, but there is a hypocrisy around the Jedi which makes me wonder just how far there limits are when confront with something they find evil but is in fact simply another way of life or thinking.

 

I would love to find out more about the relationship the Jedi have with the Republic sometime. I know there have been a few times in the Jedi storylines in this game when they have not met eye-to-eye on issues, but it would be interesting to explore that area in more detail sometimes.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Cyberwoman

[smartalectwo]

It still seems like an odd way to go about it. I mean, as DmdShiva said in their wonderful post, by repressing or conditioning' these emotions they fail to actually control these emotions, so when if they do take over they fail to control them, hence why they fall to the Dark side. Knowledge seems important to the Jedi, only not the knowledge that comes with understand and leaning how to control your emotions rather then repress.

 

We tend to see this from the point of view of either:

 

- Those who have not completed their training and are close to falling, or

- Those whose self-control has been eroded or has become flawed in some way

 

... because those are the negative examples. But in the Sith storylines alone, there are a lot of examples of Jedi who maintain their composure despite very trying circumstances.

 

It may seem as if the Jedi repress and bottle up their emotions, but the truth is that the majority of successful ones are able to empty themselves of emotion on a regular bases, let it all flow away. The regime of meditation, self-reflection and an emphasis on clear thinking allows Jedi to step outside themselves and transcend emotion. Most of us can't grasp that because we've never experienced it, but it's the basis for many Asian monastic traditions.

 

I think I see what you mean, although I can't help thinking again that I see little of that in the Jedi's actual teachings. There seem to be a fair few who I get the feeling they have a crusade to wipe out anything they do consider evil. Not a bad thing when it comes to the Sith, but there is a hypocrisy around the Jedi which makes me wonder just how far there limits are when confront with something they find evil but is in fact simply another way of life or thinking.

 

I would love to find out more about the relationship the Jedi have with the Republic sometime. I know there have been a few times in the Jedi storylines in this game when they have not met eye-to-eye on issues, but it would be interesting to explore that area in more detail sometimes.

 

The Jedi way may seem hypocritical, but they actually acknowledge that. It's the precarious balance between the attempt to reach spiritual enlightenment, and the journeying out into the material world to try to help the less fortunate, that means the Jedi Code and their teachings have to be very flexible and even morally relativistic at times. The Jedi actually accept their ideals are almost impossible to live up to, but it's not about never failing - it's about recognising when you fail, and thinking on how to do better. Most who fall to the Dark Side do so because they start lying to themselves, or fail to recognise when they've made a mistake. They hold onto emotion and let it fester within them rather than letting it go, as I said above.

 

In SWTOR we're actually seeing the Jedi at a very interesting time - barely 300 years after they rebuilt themselves, they've been almost destroyed AGAIN. As a result, it's no surprise that the Jedi Order of SWTOR is not at its best. Old masters have been embittered by years of war, young trainees have been influenced by stories of fighting the Sith, or have had their training rushed out of necessity.

 

EDIT: I actually think it's a shame that no-one ever seems to explain the Jedi Code in SWTOR - it's just taken as a dogma rather than thought through. The same can be said of KOTOR, which had an in-depth analysis of the Sith Code, but not the Jedi Code. I really think that the Knight and Consular stories could have benefited from travelling with your Master in act 1, having genuine teaching sessions in between planets not unlike the interactions between Kreia and the Exile in KOTOR 2, defining your character through your approach to the Jedi Code, and being made a Knight at the end of Act 1 - instead of being rushed to Knighthood by the end of the prologue.

Edited August 10, 2013 by smartalectwo

[AshlaBoga]

No one would blame you, Ashla.

To me it showed that Satele is as "human" as the rest of us, even if she likes to pretend that's not the case - something which is expected from the Jedi Grandmaster.

I wonder what would've happened if she hadn't tried to hide her "slip ups" and instead would've tried to change the Jedi Order's ways.

I'm guessing the traditionalists would've removed her from her position long ago.

And as far as Jedi Grandmasters go, Satele isn't the worst you can get - you can be sure she knows about the Jedi Knight and Kira/Doc, but instead of disciplining them she pretends she doesn't see it, which kinda makes me think she's secretely in favor of a Jedi order where hiding such things wouldn't be necessary.

 

Yes, I think that part of the reason why Satele is such a good person is because she allowed herself to experience controlled passion. As a result she is a more well-rounded human being compared to some other Jedi.

[RaiderMid]

It isn't about who is better to me personally. I look at it from a story standpoint. I honestly think that if it wasn't for the constant power plays, in-fighting in the Sith, The Empire would have destroyed the republic just by numbers.

 

The Sith does more harm to the Empire than good imo.

 

Perhaps this post deserves to be in the lore section thoguh.

[Pathlight-]

First of all, when talking about the Empire, one has to separate the Sith from the imperials.

 

I read a lot of "well, not all Sith are evil...".

 

This is somewhat wrong as by the very decision to use the Dark Side, the Sith make themselves stronger but also more prone to irrationality, anger and hate.

 

Why ? Because strong emotions such as anger and hate feed the Dark Side and make its user more powerful. In return, the Dark Side fosters those emotions and makes them stronger. This creates a never ending circle, a power that feeds on itself and grows exponentially.

 

I also read a lot of "well, Sith are driven by their emotions by it can also be love or kindness..." WRONG! Love or kindness are very ineffective when it comes to fuelling the Dark Side (just as the Dark Side is weak in the healing arts vs the Light Side). A Sith who listens to his inner hate and anger will be much more powerful than a loving, caring (lol) Sith.

 

So, if you want to be a powerful Sith, you will have to let your anger, hate, fear consume you and grow the Dark Side within you.

 

Read the Darth Bane books for a detailed explanation of the above.

 

Now to the imperials. The imperials are subjugated to the Sith. They obey because they fear pain and death if they don't. However, most of them genuinely believe that the Empire promotes the right way of life and that the Republic is not only a degenerate culture but also hellbent on wiping them out (congratulations Republic for trying to wipe out all the Sith after the GHW).

 

TLDR: The Sith are evil (that is what makes us strong); the Imperials aren't inherently evil, they are just following their ancestral way of life.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Pathlight-

[Blackardin]

People focus WAY too much on the emotional repression angle and not enough on the fact that Sith are sociopathic monsters.

 

I mean, if you want to debate the emotions thing on its own, great. But seriously, as a whole the Sith are enslaving, murdering, ****** lunatics. The fact that some Jedi make bad decisions is not even remotely equatable.

 

LOL, was wondering when someone was just going to say it.

 

People, its rather insane to contend that the sith are, in any way imaginable, anything more then a bunch of radical, hateful, out of control lunatics wreaking death and havoc across the universe. Next to them, Pee-Wee's clubhouse would be a solid choice for alternate government. LOL

 

I mean, if you like playing that in a video game, certainly its part of the fun, but as a logical choice for a government? LOL

Edited August 10, 2013 by Blackardin

[LadyKulvax]

Galactic Republic lasted for: 25,034 years.

Galactic Empire(most successful Sith galactic domination) lasted for: 30 at most (if we count the post-ROTJ.)

 

Jedi Order vs the Sith, wars won: all Jedi Order victories.

 

The Sith have failed repeatedly to remove the Jedi Order for a considerable amount of time, the Jedi always come back and defeat the Sith.

 

The Sith might rise up and certainly do lots of damage, but it's all short-term, nothing long-term.

[Kaedusz]

I wanted to play both Empire and Republic,but over time i realized that it's just not worth it.

 

The Republic is terrible compared to the Empire ,when we are talking about atmosphere ,voice actors(with the exception of Jenifer Hale obviously),music themes,armor models,general aesthetics.

 

The Empire is not better because of the cool to be evil bandwagon.It's better because its more beautiful and it has a character.

 

Galactic Empire(most successful Sith galactic domination) lasted for: 30 at most (if we count the post-ROTJ.)

 

30 years at the most doesn't make it as successful as most people think.The Sith have dominated the jedi more than once and sometimes much ,much longer than 30 years.The Republic was never what was important.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Kaedusz

[LadyKulvax]

I30 years at the most doesn't make it as successful as most people think.The Sith have dominated the jedi more than once and sometimes much ,much longer than 30 years.The Republic was never what was important.

 

I am comparing the Empire to the Republic, the greatest incarnation lasted 30 years, the other Empire, the one being referenced to, once the Sith Empire hit the midrim, Bothawui happened and then they started getting trashed, an attack on Korriban and Ziost even went down, the Sith Empire got desperate and pulled the whole 'treaty of Coruscant' move.

 

The Sith and their Empires are not sustainable, they have proven this themselves countless times.

 

Darth Krayt couldn't wipe out the Jedi only destroy Ossus, then he couldn't even kill the real Roan Fel and then he died twice and the Sith went back underground under Darth Nihl, divided and leaderless.

 

Look at the New Sith Wars, Kaan threw his eggs in one basket at Ruusan and the sixth and seventh battles showed a resounding victory for the Army of Light over the Brotherhood, their grip on the galaxy surrounding the Core, fell quickly.

[smartalectwo]

30 years at the most doesn't make it as successful as most people think.The Sith have dominated the jedi more than once and sometimes much ,much longer than 30 years.The Republic was never what was important.

 

I might argue that it's because the Sith don't see it as important that keeps leading to their downfall. They fight the Jedi, not realising that the Jedi are just the servants of the Force: it's the nature of the Force that keeps beating them. The most successful Sith we know of, Palpatine, recognised that to beat the Jedi, he'd have to break or bend the minds of the whole galaxy first.

[Nocturnalchemy]

I might argue that it's because the Sith don't see it as important that keeps leading to their downfall. They fight the Jedi, not realising that the Jedi are just the servants of the Force: it's the nature of the Force that keeps beating them. The most successful Sith we know of, Palpatine, recognised that to beat the Jedi, he'd have to break or bend the minds of the whole galaxy first.

 

The question of "most successful Sith" is an interesting and somewhat contentious one. In a lot of ways, Darth Vitiate was rather more successful than Palpatine: his empire, while not as large in scope, was considerably longer-lived, and - perhaps more importantly - he cheated death for a vastly longer span of time. His personal power in the Force also seems to have been greater, though that's, admittedly, a really tough thing to quantify.

[LadyKulvax]

Palpatine isthe G-canon most powerful Sith ever, even then, compared their abilities, it's just not a match.

 

Vitiate could dominate the minds of Jedi, Palpatine dominated the trillions of mind on Coruscant and mind wiped them.

 

Palpatine had a Battle Meditation that spanned his entire Empire, Vitiate didn't use Battle Meditation at all.

 

Palpatine could summon Force Storms that could destroy fleets and planets, Vitiate could not.

 

Palpatine could slowly drain the lives of 18 billion on Byss without wrecking the entire planet, Vitiate had to use a ritual and the power of 8,000 other Sith Lords to accomplish what he did at Nathema.

 

Vitiate had powerful Force Lightning that could overwhelm Revan, Sidious has Force Lightning that could bend the blades of lightsabers due to sheer pressure and could overwhelm Master Yoda and Starkiller.

 

Sidious was destroyed by the Chosen One and then returned all but invincible as he could escape their deaths with Essence Transfer.

 

Sidious mastered all seven lightsaber forms with total ease in a decade(which is an incredibly short amount of time) and could switch between them ambidextrously, being able to hold his own against Mace Windu and Luke Skywalker two of the best duellists of all time, Vitiate was a poor lightsaber combatant that didn't focus any of his time on learning the Forms to a masterful degree.

[smartalectwo]

Yeah. Sidious made it as one of the Banite Sith. And the Banites are serious hardcore fanatics compared to the bulk of the Sith of the Sith Empire. Most of the power of the Dark Side was concentrated in him. Sidious is what Vitiate wants to be!

[ShyNyny]

For the Republics own problems lets start with the Jedi code. Lets be honest, not being allowed to show your emotions and passions just makes you act like a mindless drone. True peace is impossible to achieve, there's perhaps more truth with the Sith code than the Jedi code.

 

Honestly, I absolutely HATED leveling a Jedi. Not because of the code itself, but because every twist and turn has the code twisted and many of the "light-side" and "dark-side" choices seem horribly wrong. They make no sense, in some cases, enough so that I was quite frustrated about it and had to put those characters aside for a while, before going back to them. Honestly, it's difficult to play a light-side Jedi with a straight bloody face, there're just too many nonsensical contradictions in choice and story. I did enjoy my Smuggler; however, her storyline was fairly nice.

 

I have much more thoroughly enjoyed my Sith-side characters. Their storylines are awesome, their choices usually make sense. Many companions seem less arbitrary. Etc. etc.

[QuevvenXiltyn]

No one would blame you, Ashla.

To me it showed that Satele is as "human" as the rest of us, even if she likes to pretend that's not the case - something which is expected from the Jedi Grandmaster.

I wonder what would've happened if she hadn't tried to hide her "slip ups" and instead would've tried to change the Jedi Order's ways.

I'm guessing the traditionalists would've removed her from her position long ago.

And as far as Jedi Grandmasters go, Satele isn't the worst you can get - you can be sure she knows about the Jedi Knight and Kira/Doc, but instead of disciplining them she pretends she doesn't see it, which kinda makes me think she's secretely in favor of a Jedi order where hiding such things wouldn't be necessary.

 

Well considering her heritage...

 

Revan and Bastila basically told their superiors to shove it on the "Love is bad" talk and got married... Which is why the JK/Kira angle seems to me to be a replay of that relationship at times...

[Callaron]

Yeah. Sidious made it as one of the Banite Sith. And the Banites are serious hardcore fanatics compared to the bulk of the Sith of the Sith Empire.

 

Unless I'm mistaken Bane would actually spit on Sidious if he ever met him.

Didn't Sidious murder his Master in his sleep and all? Basically doing everything Bane despised about the Sith and cheating his way to the position of Master.

Remember, Bane wanted to kill and replace his own apprentice because he started to suspect that she was a spineless wretch that was waiting for him to get weakened by old age before making her move, rather than proving her strength in the way he decreed Sith should.

 

All of the post-RotJ Sidious canon reminds me of episodes from Dragon Ball Z, rather than Star Wars - in the original movies Sidious was pretty much a desiccated husk that looked like he could barely get off his throne anymore, who squirmed and screamed powerlessly when Vader picked him up one-handedly and chucked him down the reactor core as if it was a garbage chute.

Not to mention the reason he got blind-sided by Vader in the first place was because he was too busy monologueing, torturing and gloating.

Then some writer decides it'd be cool to return Sidious in full on "Saiyan" (god-mode if you prefer).

Edited August 10, 2013 by Callaron

[Callaron]

Well considering her heritage...

 

Revan and Bastila basically told their superiors to shove it on the "Love is bad" talk and got married... Which is why the JK/Kira angle seems to me to be a replay of that relationship at times...

 

Yeah, it's one of the reasons I've enjoyed the JK storyline so much.

[LadyKulvax]

Unless I'm mistaken Bane would actually spit on Sidious if he ever met him.

Didn't Sidious murder his Master in his sleep and all? Basically doing everything Bane despised about the Sith and cheating his way to the position of Master.

Remember, Bane wanted to kill and replace his own apprentice because he started to suspect that she was a spineless wretch that was waiting for him to get weakened by old age before making her move, rather than proving her strength in the way he decreed Sith should.

 

All of the post-RotJ Sidious canon reminds me of episodes from Dragon Ball Z, rather than Star Wars - in the original movies Sidious was pretty much a desiccated husk that looked like he could barely get off his throne anymore, who squirmed and screamed powerlessly when Vader picked him up one-handedly and chucked him down the reactor core as if it was a garbage chute.

Not to mention the reason he got blind-sided by Vader in the first place was because he was too busy monologueing, torturing and gloating.

Then some writer decides it'd be cool to return Sidious in full on "Saiyan" (god-mode if you prefer).

 

Yeh and Vitiate isn't basically Darth Cthulhu.

[Callaron]

Yeh and Vitiate isn't basically Darth Cthulhu.

 

I never said he was better, nor stronger than good ol' Palpatine.

He's just another case of the writers trying to create the next "biggest, scariest bad guy".

In fact, if the option was there all my Imperial characters would turn on him in a heartbeat.

 

You'd have to be pretty damn crazy to support some idiot that wants to eat the whole friggin' galaxy after all.

 

[LadyKulvax]

I never said he was better, nor stronger than good ol' Palpatine.

He's just another case of the writers trying to create the next "biggest, scariest bad guy".

In fact, if the option was there all my Imperial characters would turn on him in a heartbeat.

 

You'd have to be pretty damn crazy to support some idiot that wants to eat the whole friggin' galaxy after all.

 

Ironically:

 

 

That was one of Darth Sidious' long term plans for the galaxy, way before the entire Old Republic era was even created.

[Lunafox]

Honestly, I absolutely HATED leveling a Jedi. Not because of the code itself, but because every twist and turn has the code twisted and many of the "light-side" and "dark-side" choices seem horribly wrong. They make no sense, in some cases, enough so that I was quite frustrated about it and had to put those characters aside for a while, before going back to them. Honestly, it's difficult to play a light-side Jedi with a straight bloody face, there're just too many nonsensical contradictions in choice and story. I did enjoy my Smuggler; however, her storyline was fairly nice.

 

I have much more thoroughly enjoyed my Sith-side characters. Their storylines are awesome, their choices usually make sense. Many companions seem less arbitrary. Etc. etc.

 

I agree, the lines of the Jedi npcs in particular, many times I couldn't keep a straight face. It was just so absurdly 'goody-goody' that I was nearly swallowing my tongue and gagging. I think they tried too hard to appear sickeningly sweet and too good. It was disturbing to me. I had a better time of it, when I was neutral and dark side...light side was torture to endure lol.

 

I sometimes wonder, if there is anyone else, who wanted to flirt shamelessly with Master Relnex, or anyone who wished they could have him for their mentor instead. I also think it's interesting, that while we got to flirt with our companions, it would have made for interesting story to get involved with your master...Master Orgus wasn't a complete loss either, though Relnex...yeah, hands down wins I would have enjoyed a storyline like that where you could be involved with your master rather than your padawan.

 

Smuggler ds was a lot of fun. I'm working a LS Smug now to see how it goes.

[Euphrosyne]

I agree, the lines of the Jedi npcs in particular, many times I couldn't keep a straight face. It was just so absurdly 'goody-goody' that I was nearly swallowing my tongue and gagging. I think they tried too hard to appear sickeningly sweet and too good. It was disturbing to me. I had a better time of it, when I was neutral and dark side...light side was torture to endure lol.

I think you misread what you were responding to. ShyNyny wasn't complaining that LS options were "sickeningly sweet" and "goody-goody", but that LS options were not consistent either with each other or the Jedi Code.

[Lunafox]

I think you misread what you were responding to. ShyNyny wasn't complaining that LS options were "sickeningly sweet" and "goody-goody", but that LS options were not consistent either with each other or the Jedi Code.

 

Well, I agreed with what they said, and added my own take too. It is true that a lot of the LS options made little sense. The quest with the parcel and the senator come to my mind. There were others as well, but I can't recall atm.

 

But I really do feel, that the lines were cheesy and goody goody and I was at the point of nearly gagging a couple of times. I too, like the other poster said, enjoyed my sith/imp side toons more. Their dialogue made a lot more sense to me also, and I feel it was better written, imo.