[Rep] Focus Tree Rebalance

[Skroting]

Wow. You know nothing about either Rage/Focus OR Combat/Carnage OR PvE OR PvP. 15k vs 12k? Wow. At least you admit you pulled the numbers out of your ***. Here's a tip: Don't. Making stuff up is worthless. "Off the top of my head" and "Right out of my ***" are the same thing. Don't do it.

 

In response to the question though, you bring both. You bring the Rage/Focus for pressure on healers and you bring the Combat/Carnage for the FF and the Pred.

 

Well you can't possibly have paid any attention to the discussion beforehand, i wasn't the one who said combat had a 15% lead on focus, i simply took a rough estimate of smash + exhaustion ticks + low end blade storm, wich nets out at *about* 12k or a bit more, the 15% some other guy here provided would suggest combat to sit arround 15k in a similar situation

[Dragonexadon]

Combat can probably kill a none-Tank in a single burst (if lucky with a crit) that's how bursty it is!

30% alacrity combined with 4.5 seconds of 100% armor penetration, you do the math!

 

edit: check this thread.

 

Awesome, this saves me from having to do the math myself.

[wadecounty]

IMO PvP will never come close to being balanced in games like this, but I like Andrew's suggestion as it makes a fair attempt, with minimal impact towards PvE.

 

That said, I would like to see improvements to Focused Defense so it can act as a better survivability cooldown, it doesn't have to be as good as Cloak of Pain but it should at least be something you want to use, as opposed to its current form where its more often a net negative.

[Maelael]

Well i don't see how you could respond to my question in that manner, if you didn't actually realize that i was aswell talking about focus specced sents/guards. Was this supposed to be an attempt at redicule?

And if those numbers are correct, i would say the trade-off is weighing *heavily* in the favor of your friendly neighbourhood Focus spec, seing as they would provide "comparable" single target output, while still potentially threatening 4 additional targets in their burst rotation.

 

Stop being defensive. It's silly.

 

I'll spell it out:

-Snipers will outdo the Maras and Juggs in everything DD related (Especially CC when compared to Maras). The reason you bring Melee classes is to apply frontline pressure with DD, not pure DD. While I don't mind killing people in focus, it's not my job. It's to pressure the front lines and healers because I just 6-9k'ed everything, can take some hits, and the sniper is finishing people off.

 

-5-15% is not comparable. It is the difference between losing and winning, especially vs another good player. There isn't always 4 targets, at times there is two, at times there is one. It's wholly situational, and dependent on group composition and if you're playing regz or ranked as well. And were also talking short burst capability here, which is what PvP is centered around.

 

-People don't play combat in ranked often because snipers do a better job at single target damage. People play combat in regz because it's easier to get solo kills and take nodes from 1-2 people. I'm def better at focus Id say than combat (Not by much though). I can easier take out a double guarded node in combat than I can in focus.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Maelael

[Jadescythe]

For reference, I do NOT play Rage/Focus on either my Marauder (Carnage for PvP, Annihilation/Carnage for PvE) or my Juggernaut (Immortal for PvP, Immortal/Vengeance for PvE). I hate Rage as a spec. I have only ever specced Rage twice on my Marauder (never on my Jugg) and it was because I was asked to in a raid. Hated every second of it. In general, I think most people who play Rage/Focus don't understand the class mechanics well enough to play a real spec. All that said, I do NOT think Rage/Focus should be changed in any appreciable form simply because it is "over-powered". Those claims are COMPLETELY unjustified. If you got destroyed by a Rage/Focus Mara/Sent/Jugg/Guard in PvP chances are A) you were standing in a stupid place for a long time and were asking to get smashed or B) he/she was just flat out better than you. If you got destroyed by a Rage/Focus Mara/Sent/Jugg/Guard in single-target DPS in PvE then you are just bad at PvE. Nerfs/Buffs should be in response to actual issues and not people QQing about getting owned.

 

I hate comments like what I highlighted red. Playing Carnage or Anni doesn't make you an elite player, I "unraveled" the enigma of playing Anni in 10 minutes of looking at the tree. I can understand preferring the style of one to another (possibly because you have to make choices on which ability to use based on procs/CDs), but to say people can't figure out the other specs

[Marb]

Bumping this.

 

So coming back to what the devs were saying about Focus from the sentinel interview. Focus is balanced around providing excellent AoE. The devs want to eventually come back around and make AoE something that any dps class can do effectively if the situation calls for it, and that would require re-balancing a lot of specs that rely on AoE skills in their single target rotation.

 

I propose that the entire tree plays the same, with the swap of Blade Storm and Sweep. The goals of these changes:

 

• Maintain the burst aspect of the spec.
   
   
  
• Remove burst from AoE, and move it to single target.
   
   
  
• Improve single target damage.
   
   
  
• Maintain the "force" theme of the spec.
  

 

 

And the changes:

 

• Zephyrean Slash redesigned. It now causes Strike, Sundering Strike, Slash, Cyclone Slash and Sweep to reduce the active cooldowns of Zealous Leap, Blade Storm and Combat Focus.
   
   
  
• Felling Blow now affects Blade Storm instead of Sweep.
   
   
  
• Singularity stacks increase the damage of Blade Storm instead of Sweep. No longer reduces focus cost (moved to Force Jump).
   
   
  
• Heightened Power triggers after using Blade Storm instead of Sweep. The damage buff would also need to be increased.
   
   
  
• Agility Training reduces the focus cost of Sweep in addition to its normal effects.
  

Edited August 22, 2013 by Marb

[VitalityPrime]

Ouch...we get a rep...and the first thing they want to do is nerf things.

 

Awesome.

[wadecounty]

Bumping this.

 

So coming back to what the devs were saying about Focus from the sentinel interview. Focus is balanced around providing excellent AoE. The devs want to eventually come back around and make AoE something that any dps class can do effectively if the situation calls for it, and that would require re-balancing a lot of specs that rely on AoE skills in their single target rotation.

 

I propose that the entire tree plays the same, with the swap of Blade Storm and Sweep. The goals of these changes:

 

• Maintain the burst aspect of the spec.
   
   
  
• Remove burst from AoE, and move it to single target.
   
   
  
• Improve single target damage.
   
   
  
• Maintain the "force" theme of the spec.
  

 

 

And the changes:

 

• Zephyrean Slash redesigned. It now causes Strike, Sundering Strike, Slash, Cyclone Slash and Sweep to reduce the active cooldowns of Zealous Leap, Blade Storm and Combat Focus.
   
   
  
• Felling Blow now affects Blade Storm instead of Sweep.
   
   
  
• Singularity stacks increase the damage of Blade Storm instead of Sweep. No longer reduces focus cost (moved to Force Jump).
   
   
  
• Heightened Power triggers after using Blade Storm instead of Sweep. The damage buff would also need to be increased.
   
   
  
• Agility Training reduces the focus cost of Sweep in addition to its normal effects.
  

 

I've been a fan of a change along these lines (basically replacing Sweep with Blade Storm) since back well before 2.0 hit, I've always felt it was the most logical way to balance the spec out. These changes all look fine to me.

 

One small change I would like is to see the Stasis cooldown reduction talent brought back into this tree, and have the ability also give Stasis the ability to generate Singularity stacks. Would fit the Force attack nature of the spec.

[VitalityPrime]

Bumping this.

 

So coming back to what the devs were saying about Focus from the sentinel interview. Focus is balanced around providing excellent AoE. The devs want to eventually come back around and make AoE something that any dps class can do effectively if the situation calls for it, and that would require re-balancing a lot of specs that rely on AoE skills in their single target rotation.

 

I propose that the entire tree plays the same, with the swap of Blade Storm and Sweep. The goals of these changes:

 

• Maintain the burst aspect of the spec.
   
   
  
• Remove burst from AoE, and move it to single target.
   
   
  
• Improve single target damage.
   
   
  
• Maintain the "force" theme of the spec.
  

 

 

And the changes:

 

• Zephyrean Slash redesigned. It now causes Strike, Sundering Strike, Slash, Cyclone Slash and Sweep to reduce the active cooldowns of Zealous Leap, Blade Storm and Combat Focus.
   
   
  
• Felling Blow now affects Blade Storm instead of Sweep.
   
   
  
• Singularity stacks increase the damage of Blade Storm instead of Sweep. No longer reduces focus cost (moved to Force Jump).
   
   
  
• Heightened Power triggers after using Blade Storm instead of Sweep. The damage buff would also need to be increased.
   
   
  
• Agility Training reduces the focus cost of Sweep in addition to its normal effects.
  

 

Maybe they should just add PvP versions of each skill...where the skills change different things for PvP...because this is an absolutely terrible change suggestion for PvE.

[wadecounty]

Maybe they should just add PvP versions of each skill...where the skills change different things for PvP...because this is an absolutely terrible change suggestion for PvE.

 

Can you actually explain what about it makes it terrible for PvE? As far as I can tell, based on those changes, the damage potential output on single targets would stay the same or possibly even increase as Blade Storm has a higher damage modifier on it than Force Sweep does.

 

If your complaint is Focus needs AOE to be effective in PvE, you're wrong and need to learn how to play the class properly. In fact, in stages where AOE is required Vigilance sometimes outperforms Focus anyways as it is more efficient at spamming Cyclone Slash after an initial Sweep, and does more damage with Cyclone Slash than Focus does.

 

Other than that, I'm not sure what in those changes would gimp the spec in PvE, and considering at the moment we're one of only 2 classes with a decent shared tree for PvE (Smuggler being the other one), it's not like the tree is in need of a buff.

[VitalityPrime]

Can you actually explain what about it makes it terrible for PvE? As far as I can tell, based on those changes, the damage potential output on single targets would stay the same or possibly even increase as Blade Storm has a higher damage modifier on it than Force Sweep does.

 

If your complaint is Focus needs AOE to be effective in PvE, you're wrong and need to learn how to play the class properly. In fact, in stages where AOE is required Vigilance sometimes outperforms Focus anyways as it is more efficient at spamming Cyclone Slash after an initial Sweep, and does more damage with Cyclone Slash than Focus does.

 

Other than that, I'm not sure what in those changes would gimp the spec in PvE, and considering at the moment we're one of only 2 classes with a decent shared tree for PvE (Smuggler being the other one), it's not like the tree is in need of a buff.

 

"Absolutely terrible" was indeed hyperbole on my part. I apologize for that.

 

However, my point is that getting rid of the number of enemies is key. The Jedi Guardian has many ways to take care of a single enemy or at least reduce their threat...between Force Stasis, Force Push, Force Kick...you really have the ability to eliminate the threat of nearly any single target.

 

Focus is great for quickly eliminating all the weaker enemies surrounding the hard target...as those enemies are the cause of most of the damage you take.

 

That has been my experience at least.

 

Focus doesn't "need" aoe to be effective...but that aspect was definitely one of the reasons I choose it.

 

I don't think Focus and Vigilance need to be drastically different. I don't think you should "have" to go to one to get AoE capability. I think they only need to be different based on "concept". One is more about lightsaber techniques...and the other is about force techniques...but they should both be on somewhat equal footing as far as single target and aoe damage. In my opinion.

Edited August 23, 2013 by VitalityPrime

[wadecounty]

"Absolutely terrible" was indeed hyperbole on my part. I apologize for that.

 

However, my point is that getting rid of the number of enemies is key. The Jedi Guardian has many ways to take care of a single enemy or at least reduce their threat...between Force Stasis, Force Push, Force Kick...you really have the ability to eliminate the threat of nearly any single target.

 

Focus is great for quickly eliminating all the weaker enemies surrounding the hard target...as those enemies are the cause of most of the damage you take.

 

That has been my experience at least.

 

Focus doesn't "need" aoe to be effective...but that aspect was definitely one of the reasons I choose it.

 

I don't think Focus and Vigilance need to be drastically different. I don't think you should "have" to go to one to get AoE capability. I think they only need to be different based on "concept". One is more about lightsaber techniques...and the other is about force techniques...but they should both be on somewhat equal footing as far as single target and aoe damage. In my opinion.

 

I agree with all this, I'm just not sure how changing Focus's main damaging attack from Sweep to Blade Storm goes against that. If anything, it's more in line with those goals of making the 2 specs more similar while still being different because of their focus on Melee and Force attacks (Blade Storm is a force attack).

 

As for clearing out a group of enemies, are you talking about solo PvE gameplay? If so, that's really not what the rest of us are discussing, which is high level group PvE gameplay (operations) and PvP endgame. Not having a move that lets you blow up a group of normal mobs in 1 hit isn't a reason to balance specs a certain way for PvE.

[Marb]

That's pretty much the intent behind the change, AoE would no longer be the specialized role of the spec as it is currently, and liberating it from that would mean that single target damage could be brought up.

 

Weirdly, I agree with you VitalityPrime. That's what the thought process was behind the changes I suggested. This would mean that AoE is something that all Guards could do if they needed to, rather then being the hallmark and primary balancing criteria for an entire spec.

 

Cyclone Slash would probably need some focus/damage adjustments to make it an efficient multi-target substitute for Slash when in Focus spec.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Marb

[wadecounty]

Cyclone Slash would probably need some focus/damage adjustments to make it an efficient multi-target substitute for Slash when in Focus spec.

 

Honestly, they should just drop the Focus cost on Cyclone Slash by 1 for all classes (including Sentinels/Marauders), this would put all 3 specs on near equal footing for AOE. Defense Guardians will have Cyclone Slashes that only cost 1 Focus and give increased threat (along with their Sweep), nice little buff to AOE tanking, Vigilance Guardians will benefit from the cost reduction equally on Cyclone Slash allowing them to really spam it when needed, and Focus Guardians will have the strongest Force Sweeps thanks to Shii-Cho form.

 

Could even take it a step further, and allow Felling Blow to count for EITHER Blade Storm or Force Sweep, giving a Focus Guardian the option of added burst on their AOE, although in most cases they'll still prefer to use it for Blade Storm as Singularity will only affect Blade Storm.

 

But yeah, while other classes have higher costing spammable AOE's in terms of resources, they also have other great options to cycle through. The Knight only has 2 choices, Sweep (12 sec cooldown at best) and Cyclone Slash, and Cyclone Slash is melee and only a frontal cone. I don't think reducing its Focus cost to 2 would be too unbalancing.

Edited August 24, 2013 by wadecounty

[Riivan]

If you want to reduce it for focus I could maybe justify it. I can't justify reducing it for any other spec. Def Guards already have plenty of tools, we don't need anymore. Vigi isn't the aoe spec and giving it a boost there is neither needed nor necessary.

[aeterno]

I'm reluctant to simply bid adieu to significant AOE pressure potential without significant changes to other classes as well. Yes a 5 person autocrit is potent but it has it's place in the game where one bubbler can mitigate a significant potion of it.

[DresG]

I'm reluctant to simply bid adieu to significant AOE pressure potential without significant changes to other classes as well. Yes a 5 person autocrit is potent but it has it's place in the game where one bubbler can mitigate a significant potion of it.

 

Nope.

You cannot justify the current way Force Sweep works by saying theres a class that can bubble the entire team, that would imply that Focus is not op only when fighting against a team with sorcs/sages. Maybe you can start a match with full bubbles, but when the combat starts the healer wont have enough GCDs to cast bubble on the entire team.

 

Solution is simple, single target dmg for Focus spec is fine, all bioware needs to do is make Force Sweep do normal dmg (either not affected by singularity or the auto crit) to everyone but your current target. In exchange, Focus Guardians need some utility, maybe a root/snare to targets affected by sweep. Something like Freezing Force debuff on all targets affected by Force Sweep or refresh the duration of Freezing Force (that way it makes a good sinergy with the other talent), that would make Focus spec very desirable for reasons that have nothing to do with massive aoe numbers.

[aeterno]

Evidently the devs agree with me hence why they put in a AOE damage pressure spec in the first place. And to defend it like they have been.

 

You may not like it but the spec has its place, just like the vanguard/pyro pulse/flamethrower cheesery that will soon surpass it in its potency does.

 

You can't say that it doesn't just because it's hard/impossible to mitigate it fully all the time. That's the bloody point. If a bubbler had enough GDCs to rebubble everyone nobody would ever die lol. So "nope". You can't say the spec is OP just cos it's doing what it's supposed to be doing.

 

I know it's hard to comprehend this but the overall balancing is actually done with these AOEs in mind. That's why they're putting changing it off to the next major re-balancing patch. The day focus get the bat a lot of other ACs will be joining them in shared nerf QQ.

Edited August 25, 2013 by aeterno

[Andrew_Past]

I'm bumping this because BW still thinks of Focus as an AOE spec. There were some good ideas and discussion in this thread on how to address problems with the Focus spec.

 

Tldr version:

This post was made before tbe 2.7 nerf. I saw a nerf coming, so I tried to make a suggestion to tone down the AOE damage without gutting it (like we see currently). Basically the suggestion boiled down to the auto crit working on everyone, but the singularity stacks would work only on your primary target. That way, you still punish grouping.

[Alec_Fortescue]

Lol, focus ain't aoe spec anymore... Dat dev answer was ridiculous. Edited May 6, 2014 by Alec_Fortescue