[Rep] State of the Guardian Address

[Thundernuts]

The Jugg questions have been posted if anyone is interested.

 

And they are atrocious.

[Dragonexadon]

Just one random thought for the Vigilance tree. Perhaps a way to make it less RGN. If we were to get a buff everytime our master strike procs happen then we get a buff that would store the proc per say. Up to three stored perhaps? I noticed I will get my rpcos when my master strike is about to come off cool down by itself rather often. This would be a slight increase on DPS

 

As an example, you have 3 seconds left on master strike, you get a proc. The proc is then stores to your buff wich allows you to use master strike even though it is on cool down. You use your normal master strike off cool down and then right after use the proc master strike.

[Draqsko]

Just one random thought for the Vigilance tree. Perhaps a way to make it less RGN. If we were to get a buff everytime our master strike procs happen then we get a buff that would store the proc per say. Up to three stored perhaps? I noticed I will get my rpcos when my master strike is about to come off cool down by itself rather often. This would be a slight increase on DPS

 

As an example, you have 3 seconds left on master strike, you get a proc. The proc is then stores to your buff wich allows you to use master strike even though it is on cool down. You use your normal master strike off cool down and then right after use the proc master strike.

 

I'm not even sure if it's possible to code that properly. I mean in theory it is, but I don't know the limitations of the engine with regards to something like that. And it would still be a limitation of the RNG with only having 2 skills to get the proc with a 30% chance of happening at best, on a 9 s and 12 s cooldown. Expanding the number of skills that can gain the proc are a better way to overcome that limitation.

 

Of course if we want to go the road of an entire rewrite of how the talent works, we could model on the Sage Seer talent, Resplendence.

 

Resplendence:

Healing Trance critical hits have a [50 / 100]% chance to grant 1 charge of Resplendence, which improves the effectiveness of your next Noble Sacrifice or Salvation.

Noble Sacrifice: Activates without degenerating your Force and consumes 1 charge.

Salvation: Activates 33% faster per charge and consumes all charges.

 

Reworking Zen Strike along these lines:

 

Zen Strike:

Critical hits with burn effects have a [10/20/30]% chance to grant 1 charge of Zen Strike, which improves the effectiveness of your next Master Strike. Stacks up to 3 times.

Master Strike: Channels 33% faster and generates 1 focus per charge and consumes all charges.

 

The percent chance on the burn proc and the channel speed can be tweaked to avoid having the talent become totally overpowered, but this would definately aid Vigilance in movement heavy fights, while still keeping the flavor of the spec, managing procs, cooldowns, and positioning.

[JefferyClark]

I think our pvp question should revolve around an issue that has plagued us since launch. Mobility and time on target in melee range is still a huge issue for us. I know it is kinda taboo for us to bring in WoW, but some of the things they've done with their Warrior recently might give us some ideas (Fury = Vig, Arms = Focus, obviously). Now, I'm not saying that we should mirror everything that Blizz has done, but there are some good ideas, I think.

 

For example, the Warbringer talent is similar to the stun that already happens with leap, and Vig already has a skill that increases the time, but maybe applying the 50% slow as well would help Vig's damage output by making it so that they can't move out of MS's range so fast. Also, the stun and slow should apply immediately, not after the animation - this seems to be some of the issue with the current bug with leaping. Storm Bolt is our saber throw, and maybe the 3s stun for it would be nice for when leap isn't available.

 

As far as adding utility, we currently have a taunt that is a debuff on the opposition in pvp, how about adding a group buff in pvp that gives a 20% increase to crit for 10 seconds? Or maybe something like Rallying Cry that gives Enure to allies within range?

 

For reference: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator

[Dragonexadon]

For example, the Warbringer talent is similar to the stun that already happens with leap, and Vig already has a skill that increases the time, but maybe applying the 50% slow as well

 

Hmm, but how would this differ then freezing force? Other then the potential of being free. I am not sure if knights need two slows.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Dragonexadon

[JefferyClark]

Hmm, but how would this differ then freezing force? Other then the potential of being free. I am not sure if knights need two slows.

 

Freezing Force is AoE... A slow applied on leap is single target... maybe have the slow apply when they are affected by an armor debuff, like the one applied by saber throw? That would make it a Vig only slow.

Edited September 5, 2013 by JefferyClark

[JefferyClark]

Overall though, anything that makes us less RNG dependent in both pvp and pve will be a good change that will help bring us back in line. As it is right now, in order to win 1v1 against an Op or Sniper you have to be perfect and the RNG gods have to bless you. Miss one proc and you're done.

[Dragonexadon]

Freezing Force is AoE... A slow applied on leap is single target... maybe have the slow apply when they are affected by an armor debuff, like the one applied by saber throw? That would make it a Vig only slow.

No I realize that for sue, I just mean what is to stop a vigilant guardian from using freezing force after a leap. Just an IMHO but regardless if it is AOE or not it provides the same result needed.

[DresG]

If there were some minor tweaks to Zen Strike then the RNG itself wouldnt be a problem.

Personally, I would add a couple of effects, when you get a new MS proc then you get increased Accuracy and Alacrity, this wouldnt increase our damage (preventing us from becoming the new FotM) but would add a bit of burst to our arsenal.

 

I think we can all agree just how detrimental to our DPSing, and our morale, can be when that pesky Sorcerer parries the last MS tick, so making sure through a talent that our Zen Striked MS proc never misses would be great and the increased Alacrity would also help a bit with the mobility issues (which if you think about it revolve around MS channel time)

 

If we didn't have to stand still while channeling MS, then our kiting and mobility issues wouldn't be so bad.

[Dragonexadon]

Answers for the Jugs

 

Alright folks! Here are your top 3 issues and their answers back from the Combat team.

 

PvP

We the community believe that the most outstanding issue with the juggernaut dps tree's are their lack of adequate cooldowns with an emphasis on "Enraged Defense." In the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense" is arguably one of the best cooldowns for dps juggernauts. In the rage tree however it is almost useless when fighting 1v1 and incredibly useless when being focused by multiple enemies. A solution to the Rage Tree "Enraged Defense" would be to increase the amount of healing received by the skill or to make it similar to the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense." Also it will be extremely important to remove the resource cost of the skill and the resource cost while the skill is active in both trees. As it stands by using "Enraged Defense" for both trees you are inhibiting your ability to put out dps. We understand that in PvP scenarios rage juggernauts put out an incredible amount of pressure and damage, but the damage to survivability ratio is severely imbalanced. We also understand that juggernauts have the utility to taunt and mitigate damage to other players, but you can't taunt if you cannot survive.

 

Question: What solutions/thoughts does the combat development team have regarding the above issue?

 

We agree that Enraged Defense/Focused Defense is a rather costly defensive cooldown. As you pointed out, using Enraged Defense/Focused Defense limits a Juggernaut’s/Guardian’s ability to deal damage, and we are not completely satisfied with this trade-off. We will be redesigning the way Enraged Defense/Focused Defense works at some point in the future, and while we are unable give exact details on this redesign at the moment, we can tell you that the new Enraged Defense/Focused Defense will no longer drain Rage/Focus while it is active. Our goal is to improve the usefulness of Enraged Defense/Focused Defense so that it does not prevent a Juggernaut/Guardian from putting out a typical amount of damage while it is active.

 

As for the difference in survivability between Rage/Focus and Vengeance/Vigilance, it is intentional. Rage/Focus has more control than Vengeance/Vigilance, and as a trade-off, gives up some survivability. Obliterate/Zealous Leap, Force Crush/Force Exhaustion, and Oppressor/Intervention are examples of the control advantage that Rage/Focus has over Vengeance/Vigilance, while Unstoppable/Unremitting and Deafening Defense/Commanding Awe are examples of the survivability advantage that Vengeance/Vigilance has over Rage. As these trade-offs are intentional, they are unlikely to change (at least not any time soon).

 

PvE

Outside of an armor debuff, which can be applied by multiple other classes/role assignments, Juggernaut DPS has very limited group utility. Off-tanking or emergency tanking is not encouraged by any mechanics at end-game, and is not practical without sacrificing competency in our primary role as damage dealers. Similarly, abilities such as Enraged Defense and Intercede, will providing increased survivability, detract from our primary function as damage dealers (Intercede for using a global to do something other than damage and ED for the Rage cost), causing our already unimpressive damage potential to dip even further; they are also completely unneeded in end-game PvE.

 

With the current state of affairs with regards to class balance, a group would be better served bringing a Juggernaut tank, a Sniper, or a Mercenary for their armor debuff, due to other benefits provided by those classes/roles in addition to the armor debuff. This leaves Juggernaut DPS players without something that they can offer a group as far as utility abilities are concerned. Further, Juggernaut DPS is woefully lacking with the exception of one specific spec in one specific fight in the current tier of content.

 

Question: Is it intended that Juggernauts' damage output and group utility while using either of the DPS trees be sub-par due to the fact that we have the option of fulfilling the tank role?

 

It is not intended for the Juggernaut/Guardian damage specializations’ output and group utility to be sub-par because Juggernauts/Guardians can specialize to fulfill the role of a tank. We do realize that Juggernaut/Guardian damage dealers and some other damage dealers that can specialize in tanking or healing feel like they are not currently desirable group members in operations, and this is a high-priority issue for us to address.

 

Unfortunately, this is not a small issue that is standing in line for a quick and simple fix – it affects far more than just Juggernaut/Guardian damage dealers. As such, changes made to address this issue will be rolling out slowly, over time, in class-specific ways. The upcoming 2.4 changes for Powertech damage dealers are an example of this, and our much longer-term plans for this include adding new utility to the advanced classes and roles that seem to lack it. The gaps between our damage dealing specializations are already small for a game with this many specializations, but we will be working to shrink those gaps even further over time.

 

General

Vengeance currently suffers from two distinctive problems which affect its performance in both PvP and PvE.

 

First is the dependency on the Rampage proc to refresh Ravage. Unlike many other specs, Vengeance can not refresh Ravage through ability spam, as both Impale and Shatter have significant cooldowns accompanied with a comparatively low proc chance of similar abilities (30%). Given the long 30 sec cooldown on Ravage, this creates great variance in damage performance when DPS and rage generation dip down due to a 'no proc' scenario.

 

Second is the fact that Ravage is a melee channel, and suffers from all the vulnerabilities that go with these types of abilities. Much of its damage can be avoided simply with movement (which leaves the Juggernaut outside of melee range) and it can be be shut down with mezzes, stuns, knockbacks, etc. This is a significant issue due to how little damage our filler abilities deal, leaving Vengeance at great risk of being shut down completely in group PvP environments after the initial Ravage (from unstoppable).

 

To be clear, the community enjoys Ravage and considers it the cornerstone of the spec.

 

Question: With this in mind, would the combat team consider making some changes to ensure Vengeance can more easily deal reliable and consistent single target damage in PvE and PvP?

 

We agree that Rampage/Zen Strike can fall on hard times due to random number generation. We are not opposed to fixing this issue by increasing the chance that Rampage/Zen Strike occurs, but it likely means that the rate limit will also need to increase. This would give Vengeance/Vigilance more consistent damage and get it to parse less extreme outliers (both higher lows and lower highs), and this is a change we have no problem making for a future update.

 

As for channeling Ravage/Master Strike in PvP, we may consider giving Juggernauts/Guardians access to the Overwhelm/Debilitation skill which Marauders/Sentinels have. It immobilizes the target when Ravage/Master Strike is used. This skill would probably show up somewhere in the Vengeance/Vigilance skill tree

[Alec_Fortescue]

Ravage to get root!

[ArenCordial]

Ravage to get root!

 

Which is good but remember they did say MAY. I'd still have preferred a faster Ravage channel so less chance of knockbacks/mezzes and it would help PvE in mobile fights, but this will work.

 

The thing I'm concerned about is them wanting to get rid of the outliers (top and bottom of dps). Overall that's good but to be frank, our top dps number aren't that impressive.

Edited September 10, 2013 by ArenCordial

[Dragonexadon]

I think the Jugs did a great job with their questions, and it will be hard to match it considering one of our big questions was Focus Defense.

[JefferyClark]

I think the Jugs did a great job with their questions, and it will be hard to match it considering one of our big questions was Focus Defense.

 

We should probably expand on their questions. For example, the Vig/Veng spec is supposed to have more survivability in pvp than the Focus/Rage spec, because the F/R has more "control" according to the devs.... However, the survivability on Vig/Veng isn't different enough to justify the massive dps drop and lack of utility they have. Some of the Focused Defense changes might have a bearing on that, but I'd rather see a buff that is passive and not reliant on a cooldown. Maybe something related to the stances.

 

Also, we should probably address the fact that as the only pure melee AC, we have a distinct lack of mobility and utility. Again, refer to my previous post with what WoW does in lowering cooldowns of the gap closers and such.

Edited September 11, 2013 by JefferyClark

[JefferyClark]

Also, just thought of this... How about making Dispatch an actual closing move again? Every other AC has some very nice closers that if they hit you with under 20% you are dead very fast... Nothing is more frustrating than seeing Dispatch hit an Operative healer @ 19% health, knock him down to only 10-12% and allow him to heal back up while you try and get back in range to hit him again. Edited September 11, 2013 by JefferyClark

[ArenCordial]

Also, just thought of this... How about making Dispatch an actual closing move again? Every other AC has some very nice closers that if they hit you with under 20% you are dead very fast... Nothing is more frustrating than seeing Dispatch hit an Operative healer @ 19% health, knock him down to only 10-12% and allow him to heal back up while you try and get back in range to hit him again.

 

My general feeling is they won't go for it. The impression I got from the Jugg answers is they don't want to increase our dps. Hell to get the improved proc chances they actually want to lower our top end dps which quite frankly isn't all that great.

Edited September 11, 2013 by ArenCordial

[Ugolino]

The devs want to kill Juggernaut DPS!

 

/tinfoilhat

Edited September 11, 2013 by Ugolino

[JefferyClark]

I would accept a slightly lower top damage output if we could reliably do our dps like we should be able to... The thing is, right now, we can only do our DPS for only a few seconds... so while we may have ok "dps" when we are doing it, I think it is being ignored the amount of time we are doing "0" dps while catching back up to the target after a Master Strike channel (which probably didn't get all 3 ticks anyway), or are stunned or otherwise CC'ed while out of melee range.

[ArenCordial]

I would accept a slightly lower top damage output if we could reliably do our dps like we should be able to... The thing is, right now, we can only do our DPS for only a few seconds... so while we may have ok "dps" when we are doing it, I think it is being ignored the amount of time we are doing "0" dps while catching back up to the target after a Master Strike channel (which probably didn't get all 3 ticks anyway), or are stunned or otherwise CC'ed while out of melee range.

 

Why should our dps be any lower than say Maras, Snipers, Operatives, Mercs, Sorcs? As you say they have ranged utility (save the Op) meaning they don't have the uptime issues. They also have a higher dps ceiling than what the best of our class are capable of putting out. I'm all for them giving the class some QoL but it doesn't need to have its top end DPS lowered. The only classes that consistently parse lower are Vanguards and Shadows, despite the fact we're an optimal parsing class.

Edited September 11, 2013 by ArenCordial

[UndyingHadyn]

Unless your representative made a complete arse of himself when he met the developers in Chicago, he'll pipe up soon I'm sure.

 

You guys need to throw your parses and top-end damage worries out the freaking window. There are ways to hit harder, without increasing our damage...sound like magic?

 

I'd like to provide a suggestion that you and your elite English Diction specialists should phrase into a question. Phrase it how you will, but there is an incredible ability with great potential that we need to sneak into our repertoire.

 

-Shield Break. I really believe that there are ways to aquire larger dps values, without having developers re-write the game. This is a pvp-centric suggestion, but It could still apply to certain, non-boss applications. The specifics of this ability would allow Guardians the ability to temporarily bypass a target's applied shield mechanism. Now in pvp, there are a plethora of tanks throwing out shields to their teammates. This new ability could be used by the guardian class to ignore said shield, and apply the intended damage, as though the target was not shielded. My suggestion is for a 6 second window( 15 second cooldown), to be placed with the top tier, middle tree talent. (Vigilance). However, looking at this ability from a generic persceptive, it could be woven into a general request as well.

 

Guys...I highly recommend approaching your questions with intricate and unique utility requests such as this one. If you don't like what I say or how I say it, you can take it out on my little Jug. Sound good?

[ArenCordial]

Unless your representative made a complete arse of himself when he met the developers in Chicago, he'll pipe up soon I'm sure.

 

You guys need to throw your parses and top-end damage worries out the freaking window. There are ways to hit harder, without increasing our damage...sound like magic?

 

I'd like to provide a suggestion that you and your elite English Diction specialists should phrase into a question. Phrase it how you will, but there is an incredible ability with great potential that we need to sneak into our repertoire.

 

-Shield Break. I really believe that there are ways to aquire larger dps values, without having developers re-write the game. This is a pvp-centric suggestion, but It could still apply to certain, non-boss applications. The specifics of this ability would allow Guardians the ability to temporarily bypass a target's applied shield mechanism. Now in pvp, there are a plethora of tanks throwing out shields to their teammates. This new ability could be used by the guardian class to ignore said shield, and apply the intended damage, as though the target was not shielded. My suggestion is for a 6 second window( 15 second cooldown), to be placed with the top tier, middle tree talent. (Vigilance). However, looking at this ability from a generic persceptive, it could be woven into a general request as well.

 

Guys...I highly recommend approaching your questions with intricate and unique utility requests such as this one. If you don't like what I say or how I say it, you can take it out on my little Jug. Sound good?

 

An ability like that wouldn't do much. Its so limited in scope, I can't see the developers spending the time trying to code that. First it robs tanks of one of there primary functions. Second its too limited. It works for what 6 seconds as you've said in your other posts on 1 of 4 targets in the arenas. Potentially not at all in 8x8 as there's no guarantee of a tank being on the opposite team. A generic offensive cooldown would probably work better. That or a healing reduction debuff on Shatter/Plasma Brand, as I assume your going for trying to kill healers.

 

Lastly the high end dps IS a concern. The AC is currently near the bottom of that front, only really beating out Vanguards and Shadows. Lowering more is frankly unnecessary. You could in fact raise it by 100 dps and that would put us more in line with the majority of the classes, and quite a few classes would still be ahead.

Edited September 11, 2013 by ArenCordial

[UndyingHadyn]

An ability like that wouldn't do much. Its so limited in scope, I can't see the developers spending the time trying to code that. First it robs tanks of one of there primary functions. Second its too limited. It works for what 6 seconds as you've said in your other posts on 1 of 4 targets in the arenas. Potentially not at all in 8x8 as there's no guarantee of a tank being on the opposite team. An offensive cooldown would probably work better. That or a healing reduction debuff on Shatter/Plasma Brand, as I assume your going for trying to kill healers.

 

Lastly the high end dps IS a concern. The AC is currently near the bottom of that front, only really beating out Vanguards and Shadows. Lowering more is frankly unnecessary. You could in fact raise it by 100 dps and that would put us more in line with the majority of the classes, and quite a few classes would still be head.

 

Healing reduction debuff is good. But shields are also very important, and are very popular. I will guarantee that at least 90% of all 4 man ranked premades in 2.4 , will have a tank.

 

It is a timed, skill based ability I'll add. The healer can obviously cc the guardian to waste his Shield Break(dammit, we gotta find a name for this). It is , as you say complex to include into their programing, but It is not unlikely for something like this to happen. For all "dps and burst" concerns, here would be an immensely powerfull ability, to completely disrupt the enemy's tactics, and increase the dynamic of pvp. The fact that it IS specific and isolated, is probably the most valid reason why it should be considered.

 

I'm asking for you guys to consider and imagine how effective and influencial an ability like this could be.

[JefferyClark]

There was an idea I read last night about turning Plasma Brand into a "cleave" that hits multiple targets (3?). If they don't want to raise its front-end single-target damage (the DoT is worthless, same with all our other DoTs) then this would provide some fix to our perceived damage output... I'd rather see Vig/Veng be single-target burner specs, but it seems they are against increasing our overall dps output, given their answers to the Jugg questions.

[JefferyClark]

Our metrics assume that Shoot First/Hidden Strike is only used once per encounter, so if you are using Disappearing Act/Cloaking Screen to perform additional Shoot First/Hidden Strike attacks in a single encounter, then you are probably performing above our expectations.

 

That is from the Scoundrel Q&A's. I wonder if their metrics for Guardians are assuming that our targets are standing still while we hit on them? Perhaps we should ask them to list how they gather metrics for us so that we can offer insights on how they might get more accurate numbers?

 

Like all of the other PvE set bonuses in the game, the intent behind the 4-piece Scoundrel/Operative PvE set bonus is to provide a small boost to sustained damage.

 

There is also this... While being able to use Saber Throw closer is kinda nice, surely this isn't giving us as much of a sustained damage boost as the other classes. Something else to think about.

Edited September 13, 2013 by JefferyClark

[Alec_Fortescue]

What bothers me is that, in order to get good apm and dps, we actually have to interrupt ravage (!) at 2.6 seconds so the last tick hits and we can use the next ability before channeling ends. Wth? Just reduce Ravage's channel time to 2.6 seconds, too. There is no point confusing people making them interrupt their skills in order to get optimal results. >.>