Juggernaut suggestions for our Representative

[Alec_Fortescue]

We don't NEED an offensive cooldown. Sure it would be nice. But you just said. Marauders get a raid wide one, so, why bothering to give more? If we get the Marauder one, it's one less thing to click and manage.

 

Problem is YOU not having this cooldown so others can benefit from it. And then when it comes to removing you or the marauder, it's always you even if you're doing better dps-wise. An average marauder will be always favored over a juggernaut. It's not bad on dummies, I am nearly getting 2.9k dps without a crucial set bonus and without 200 Force Power in my off-hand. DPS-wise we are behind but not far. Biggest problem is the lack of raid-wide bonuses which are leading to marauders getting a priority.

 

I would love to see more raid utility for dps Juggernauts + either increasing damage of our core attacks or doing something about the low 30% chance on Ravage reset. This class is way too rng dependent. I wish we could get auras, like paladins. 1% dmg increase passive for an entire raid would be a nice incentive to bring a juggernaut in. Or stacking Sundering Strike.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Alec_Fortescue

[Luckygunslinger]

Problem is YOU not having this cooldown so others can benefit from it. And then when it comes to removing you or the marauder, it's always you even if you're doing better dps-wise. An average marauder will be always favored over a juggernaut. It's not bad on dummies, I am nearly getting 2.9k dps without a crucial set bonus and without 200 Force Power in my off-hand. DPS-wise we are behind but not far. Biggest problem is the lack of raid-wide bonuses which are leading to marauders getting a priority.

 

I would love to see more raid utility for dps Juggernauts + either increasing damage of our core attacks or doing something about the low 30% chance on Ravage reset. This class is way too rng dependent. I wish we could get auras, like paladins. 1% dmg increase passive for an entire raid would be a nice incentive to bring a juggernaut in. Or stacking Sundering Strike.

 

What Juggernauts bring to the table in terms of raid wide utility is being fantastic emergency tanks when needed. Rampage is the biggest issue with Vengeance and it's something that appears to be backed by a lot of the people in this thread as well as the one I made, in my opinion, that is where Vengeance is beaten by Operative, Marauder, hell even Powertech. Regardless, could also do something with Intercede, turn it into an AOE mini bloodthirst or have it give a damage increase to the person who receives it.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Luckygunslinger

[Alec_Fortescue]

What Juggernauts bring to the table in terms of raid wide utility is being fantastic emergency tanks when needed. Rampage is the biggest issue with Vengeance and it's something that appears to be backed by a lot of the people in this thread as well as the one I made, in my opinion, that is where Vengeance is beaten by Operative, Marauder, hell even Powertech. Regardless, could also do something with Intercede, turn it into an AOE mini bloodthirst or have it give a damage increase to the person who receives it.

 

Emergency tanks... Please! This is a scenario which should never happen and you should never even consider happening. Get a party decent enough to compete for world first titles and such scenario is never happening because there is no place for emergency tanking there. Once tank is out - he's out and there is very little hope on many encounters to survive them. Vengeance is labeled as DAMAGE. You're a damage dealer, you should not even consider tanking and your only priority should be doing as much damage as possible, avoiding taking damage in a stupid way and knowing the fight inside-out.

 

Following your reasoning, DPS sages or commandos or scoundrels would bring to the table in terms of raid utility as being fantastic emergency healers when needed. This happens super rarely and it's usually just a quick ability, like a kolto bomb.

 

Using intercede in a fight, even with a mini damage buff aoe, would reduce your dps and selecting a proper target could be messy in 16 man operation, too. You don't want to take the threat from a tank, right?

Edited August 7, 2013 by Alec_Fortescue

[Luckygunslinger]

Emergency tanks... Please! This is a scenario which should never happen and you should never even consider happening. Get a party decent enough to compete for world first titles and such scenario is never happening because there is no place for emergency tanking there. Once tank is out - he's out and there is very little hope on many encounters to survive them. Vengeance is labeled as DAMAGE. You're a damage dealer, you should not even consider tanking and your only priority should be doing as much damage as possible, avoiding taking damage in a stupid way and knowing the fight inside-out.

 

Following your reasoning, DPS sages or commandos or scoundrels would bring to the table in terms of raid utility as being fantastic emergency healers when needed. This happens super rarely and it's usually just a quick ability, like a kolto bomb.

 

Using intercede in a fight, even with a mini damage buff aoe, would reduce your dps and selecting a proper target could be messy in 16 man operation, too. You don't want to take the threat from a tank, right?

 

 

Okay? There are plenty of classes who don't have an offensive cooldown. And there are also plenty of classes who don't have an execute also. Operatives who are now one of the highest parsing classes in the game don't get a below 30% strike, yet they get by, and so can we without a crit chance increase or a "Raid wide 1% damage increase". And I merely told you what we bring to the table. You'd be surprised by scenarios that can occur in a raid. What if something goes wrong? Glitch occurs and a tank dies, other tank is indisposed, trapped in the Nightmare for NiM Styrak for example.. No one in the raid has a taunt so the boss hops around smacking someone. OR a juggernaut can taunt, pop Ward, Endure Pain and take as much punishment as they can while the others work on getting the tank back up to par. You're right, it should never happen, but lets face reality here, it does, hence it's called an Emergency.

 

How would it reduce my damage? It's a GCD, bloodthirst is also. And that's only if you're stupid enough to use the aggro dump on the tank.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Luckygunslinger

[Ottoattack]

Okay? There are plenty of classes who don't have an offensive cooldown. And there are also plenty of classes who don't have an execute also. Operatives who are now one of the highest parsing classes in the game don't get a below 30% strike, yet they get by, and so can we without a crit chance increase or a "Raid wide 1% damage increase". And I merely told you what we bring to the table. You'd be surprised by scenarios that can occur in a raid. What if something goes wrong? Glitch occurs and a tank dies, other tank is indisposed, trapped in the Nightmare for NiM Styrak for example.. No one in the raid has a taunt so the boss hops around smacking someone. OR a juggernaut can taunt, pop Ward, Endure Pain and take as much punishment as they can while the others work on getting the tank back up to par. You're right, it should never happen, but lets face reality here, it does, hence it's called an Emergency.

 

How would it reduce my damage? It's a GCD, bloodthirst is also. And that's only if you're stupid enough to use the aggro dump on the tank.

 

While you are correct regarding Juggs ability to tank for short parses as dps, I will have to agree with previous poster, I would not consider this added utility, the reason is it rarely happens, and when it does it won't help much on HM and NiM ops.

 

The problem with adding utility is the class has a lot of utility in PvP while none in PvE. Adding further utility is a possibility for PvE improvement, but may lead to the class being broken in PvP. Its tough, because the design choices BW took forces these issues.

 

Similar story is, rage juggs are pretty strong PvP wise, but fall short in PvE. Buffing the damage may lead to the class being broken in PvP, yet balanced in PvE. Again tough spot due to inherent class design.

 

Vengeance could use a buff in PvE and PvP. Adding 100-150 additional dps will probably be beneficial in both scenarios and not game breaking.

[Alec_Fortescue]

Vengeance could use a buff in PvE and PvP. Adding 100-150 additional dps will probably be beneficial in both scenarios and not game breaking.

 

Extra dps would be nice but I'd so much prefer something an entire group can benefit from. While we are behind, it is possible to hold our own on a decent level. Just reached 2950 dps over 4 and half minute on a dummy. No set bonus. All my 5 minute dummy parses are 2.8k+ and I believe I can get more upon improving my off-hand with extra 200 force power and getting 8% bonus damage for master strike. This is extremely good for a Guardian / Juggernaut if he can keep it up and perform similarly in the raid.

 

I am especially furious and frustrated after recent progression raid (16m NiM Olok the Shadow) where it was decided to replace one of the 4 melee fighters (3 sents, 1 grd) with a healer. Despite me having higher dps than Watchman in our party (I am Vigilance) the choice was on me because... Sentinel had Inspiration. It makes me really sad that in general average Sentinel will be more favored over a really good Guardian. And when it comes to hardcore progression raiding it doesn't matter how well I play my class but the abilities I can use and Sentinels/Marauders got so much extras they can barely fit into three bars. That's what bothers me. My dps is not the problem. The class is the problem as I was told. I tried Sentinel but I genuinely hate that class with passion and I hail from an RP server, to make things worse.

 

Before Denova update, if I recall correctly, the armor debuffs applied by sundering strikes would stack so it was an incentive to bring in a Juggernaut dps aside from the tank. It provided almost non-stop improved damage against the boss by the raid party. Why not bring it back? Say there are two Juggernauts in the raid. That would equal to 40% armor reduction to the boss and something no raid leader can just discard easily. I fail to see how it would affect PvP because if I think of a scenario where two or three smashers together apply stacking armor debuffs and then smash just makes me laugh. It's rather unrealistic, especially since you often see smashers not even bothered with this attack and going straight into burst.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Alec_Fortescue

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

Emergency tanks... Please! This is a scenario which should never happen and you should never even consider happening. Get a party decent enough to compete for world first titles and such scenario is never happening because there is no place for emergency tanking there. Once tank is out - he's out and there is very little hope on many encounters to survive them.

 

This is pretty dumb. Fact is it does happen. If you have a tank die on a 2 tank required boss it's great to have a DPS that can step in an tank it long enough for a brez or stealth rez of the original tank to happen. I've done this a number of times for raids. I imagine this doesn't happen as much with world first groups, but that's not the majority of raiding. That's the very upper ascellon.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying a raid-wide buff wouldn't be nice, but I doubt it would happen. Marauders and snipers are the only two ACs that have anything like this (sniper AOE shield) and this seems to be intentionally because they are the only two pure DPS ACs that can't do any tanking or healing. If they gave raid-wide buffs to every AC it would be ridiculous and break the game. Also since only these two classes have it then why isn't every other DPS class complaining that they get passed over for not having this? Are snipers and marauders the only people who DPS in raids? I get so sick of this argument, it's silly.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Arlon_Nabarlly

[Alec_Fortescue]

Arion, the top guild on my server is mostly entirely composed of Sents and Gunslinger dps. Yes, those classes are in majority of DPSers doing hardest content. It doesn't just apply to my guild. Those are two classes which bring best results and are favored over everything else in most difficult content. :[ Off-tanking might work in easier modes but on nightmare you're likely to be dead in seconds. Every class which specs into DPS role should enjoy similar benefits and opportunities in the top-tier endgame, no matter if they have an extra tanking or healing tree. Easier progression in hardest content shouldn't be a privilege of few special classes. Again - stacking sunder would be a subtle and yet very beneficial boost and I wouldn't demand more. Edited August 7, 2013 by Alec_Fortescue

[Ottoattack]

Before Denova update, if I recall correctly, the armor debuffs applied by sundering strikes would stack so it was an incentive to bring in a Juggernaut dps aside from the tank. It provided almost non-stop improved damage against the boss by the raid party. Why not bring it back? Say there are two Juggernauts in the raid. That would equal to 40% armor reduction to the boss and something no raid leader can just discard easily. I fail to see how it would affect PvP because if I think of a scenario where two or three smashers together apply stacking armor debuffs and then smash just makes me laugh. It's rather unrealistic, especially since you often see smashers not even bothered with this attack and going straight into burst.

 

That's a very good suggestion that improves the value juggs are providing to raid and certainly not game breaking for PvP. The question will be where do you set the limit? 5 different stacks is 100% damage reduction to the target. Also, the debuff can be applied by snipers and mercs. If there is 5 mercs and snipers total (which is expected to have in 16 man group), jugg may still not get the spot for the debuff.

[Alec_Fortescue]

That's a very good suggestion that improves the value juggs are providing to raid and certainly not game breaking for PvP. The question will be where do you set the limit? 5 different stacks is 100% damage reduction to the target. Also, the debuff can be applied by snipers and mercs. If there is 5 mercs and snipers total (which is expected to have in 16 man group), jugg may still not get the spot for the debuff.

 

I'd say 3 stacks are enough. The pool of Juggernauts capable of doing serious endgame is rather low. 3 stacks would allow for 16 man parties consisting of two Juggernaut tanks and one DPS as well. This is a very unpopular raiding class on ToFN with a lot of stigma attached to it and its past performances. I might love it, I might perform well but I can't help but to forget the treatment and mocking I have received.

 

A curious alternative could be for stacking to be introduced as a talent which would be a part of the Vengeance tree. By this way, Vengeance player would still be welcome despite two possible Guardian tanks. I would gladly use this talent and I can imagine which two points I would sacrifice for it in order to get a visible benefit. In PvP this way could also ensure that it will only be taken by people who intend to work together with applying stacks and thus open new options in PvP scenarios (Vengeance Jug working together with a Smasher?) but also ensure that this would not be happening often in regular Warzones with so many loners.

 

16 man raid parties try to balance between 4 ranged and 4 melee so your scenario, while realistic, would rarely occur. I also believe that the pool of experienced and good Mercenary dps is rather low, similar to Juggernauts. Stereotypes and unpopularity comes into play. 8 man parties most often go 2 ranged, 2 melee.

 

I actually like this suggestion because it only works in the raid and group scenario. You can't pull this on your own so there is a requirement of teaming up to get your increased damage.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Alec_Fortescue

[ArenCordial]

I don't think the Sunder stacking idea will work. If they do it for us then you'll hear cries that Slingers/Snipers and Commando/Mercs should have it on their Armor Reduction powers. If that happens then why bring a Jugg over another Sniper.

 

That's not saying I don't appreciate the idea, Alec, only that I can imagine where it would lead.

[Alec_Fortescue]

They do much and much higher dps already + they have raid wide shield and huge advantage of being ranged. =[ Edited August 7, 2013 by Alec_Fortescue

[ArenCordial]

They do much and much higher dps already + they have raid wide shield and huge advantage of being ranged. =[

 

Right I complete agree. The problem is BioWare thinks Single Spec needs to gain something just for being Single spec. I don't necessarily disagree with them but I don't really like their solution. The question becomes though what's the acceptable trade off for being a single role class over a multi-role class?

 

This seems to be BioWare's answer:

 

A. Higher Damage

 

B. Raid Wide Utilities

 

I can get on board with one but not BOTH. Personally Option A annoys me more. If I'm used for the same role, I should be able to put up equal numbers for that role against an equally skilled player. I think the problem is with B if you start hand out Raid Wide Buff/Utilities then every class will be clamoring for theirs and who knows how the classes would end up stacked against each other then. It might be 2 of a specific class again that are wanted because their buffs are that awesome. It opens a door that may well be better left closed.

Edited August 7, 2013 by ArenCordial

[MarkXXIV]

Playing my jug tank and vengeance and loving it. Hope tank and vengeance are viable for ranked in 2.4.

[Marb]

I would be down with asking a question about knockbacks:

 

General) Knockbacks and snares are the bane of any tank, but we Juggernauts feel particularly vulnerable to them because of the short effective range of our threat building abilities. The frequency of knockback attacks seems to be quite high on trash encounters in flashpoints and operations. Its not fun when your healer gets alpha nuked because of an unexpected knockback+snare combo immediately after leaping in. The turret emplacements in Cademimu also make for some hilarious encounters due to their fondness for knocking back any poor tank that foolishly puts a foot inside of the turret's melee range.

 

Would you guys consider giving Immortal Juggernauts some form of temporary knockback resistance? Alternatively, has the content team considered designing more tank friendly trash?

Edited August 9, 2013 by Marb

[Aelaias]

Andrew_Past has been touting his idea of a 15% groupwide alacrity buff for vengeance. Thinking about it this buff would accomplish a number of things. It would help in the burn phases. It would allow ravage completion within the unstoppable window. It would boost the burst in pvp just a bit. Not sure this would be enough, the vengeance mobility is still crap but it would be helpful.

[UncleOst]

Andrew_Past has been touting his idea of a 15% groupwide alacrity buff for vengeance. Thinking about it this buff would accomplish a number of things. It would help in the burn phases. It would allow ravage completion within the unstoppable window. It would boost the burst in pvp just a bit. Not sure this would be enough, the vengeance mobility is still crap but it would be helpful.

 

aaahhh. Progress. I love it.

 

Personally couldn't suggest a better quality of life question for our classes.

 

Get back to some specifics and tie in our jug suggestions.

 

We may have a winner.

[Marb]

Reading the devs responses to the sniper and mara questions was deflating. I was really disheartened at how, even though they recognize issues, that changes are not in the pipeline in the near future.

 

I am still grateful at the initiative of starting some kind of direct dialog with the dev(s), but I hope they can at least direct some of that cartel revenue towards a bigger combat team. In hindsight, I shouldn't be as sad as I am now, considering operatives were not viable as dps for operations for nearly an entire *year*.

 

Even coming up with new ideas for juggs feels like a waste of time, when they are making out that even fixing and balancing changes are not something they are willing to do any time soon.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Marb

[Alec_Fortescue]

aaahhh. Progress. I love it.

 

Personally couldn't suggest a better quality of life question for our classes.

 

Get back to some specifics and tie in our jug suggestions.

 

We may have a winner.

 

 

This is too much imo. I am fair and I want equal opportunities and equal raid utility for each dps class. I am feeling really sorry for Shadows. Really.

 

But I am not saying "no". Would be a great buff.

 

When will reps present questions and when will they be answered for our class?

Edited August 9, 2013 by Alec_Fortescue

[ArenCordial]

I've kind pulled together some rough questions. What do you think?

 

1. Unlike many classes Juggernauts lack an offensive cooldown that can bring on command burst. Is this an oversight? What is the rational behind this?

 

2. Vengeance Spec lives and dies by its #1 ability, Ravage. Unfortunately using the ability can create a host of difficulties. In PvP (or PvE fights with significant movement) the back loaded third tick is easily avoidable by have your target run out. It can also create mobility problems when your target moves out of melee range and you are forced to chase. Finally the spec's DPS is extremely dependent on rng to proc Rampage. A little poor luck and you have a 30 second cooldown on your top ability. What are the devs thoughts surrounding Ravage/Rampage? Are accelerated Ravage channels for Vengeance and improved Rampage proc chances something to consider?

 

3. Enraged Defense is a somewhat awkward ability as both a defensive cooldown and threat drop. In PvP this works but in PvE many DPS Juggernauts are loath to use it because the high resource cost would lead to a decrease in DPS performance. Do you believe that a DPS loss is acceptable for a threat drop?

Edited August 9, 2013 by ArenCordial

[UncleOst]

I've kind pulled together some rough questions. What do you think?

 

1. Unlike many classes Juggernauts lack an offensive cooldown that can bring on command burst. Is this an oversight? What is the rational behind this?

 

2. Vengeance Spec lives and dies by its #1 ability, Ravage. Unfortunately using the ability can create a host of difficulties. In PvP (or PvE fights with significant movement) the back loaded third tick is easily avoidable by have your target run out. It can also create mobility problems when your target moves out of melee range and you are forced to chase. Finally the spec's DPS is extremely dependent on rng to proc Rampage. A little poor luck and you have a 30 second cooldown on your top ability. What are the devs thoughts surrounding Ravage/Rampage? Are accelerated Ravage channels for Vengeance and improved Rampage proc chances something to consider?

 

3. Enraged Defense is a somewhat awkward ability as both a defensive cooldown and threat drop. In PvP this works but in PvE many DPS Juggernauts are loath to use it because the high resource cost would lead to a decrease in DPS performance. Do you believe that a DPS loss is acceptable for a threat drop?

 

Needs work.

 

 

 

 

Thank you for grabbing a seat at the round table. There's a bong getting passed around. You'll need to puff on it.

[ArenCordial]

Needs work.

 

 

 

 

Thank you for grabbing a seat at the round table. There's a bong getting passed around. You'll need to puff on it.

 

Inhales.

 

Any uh suggestions man?

[UncleOst]

Inhales.

 

Any uh suggestions man?

 

hehe, in time bud. I'm giving our rep a chance to observe and calculate. The more we collaborate and present our "suggestions", the easier it will be for him to finalize and create our official new thread.

 

There are a few of us that bounce between the guard forums, trying to lock down some synergy. I will presume this is what our rep is doing. An update would be nice.

 

I will give it another day. If Marl doesn't pipe up, then I'll present a vote thread. We juggers will then vote on our three questions thread either nay or yay.

 

Hopefully then marl will have a solid foundation to build on.

[Riivan]

The Guard thread continues to be off topic. Maybe if you Juggs that obviously have your **** together start poking at them with me we'll get some questions finally.

 

They're too busy arguing how they'd change x, y, and z rather than just figuring out what we want to know.

[UncleOst]

The Guard thread continues to be off topic. Maybe if you Juggs that obviously have your **** together start poking at them with me we'll get some questions finally.

 

They're too busy arguing how they'd change x, y, and z rather than just figuring out what we want to know.

 

Well it's all part of the plan. We've been guilty of the same process on this thread but it's ok...talking jug is good. We have to remember that the devs may disagree completely with what our concerns are and say "We feel that jugs are in a good place right now and will not be revamped at all".

 

I think the concerns we are focusing on are good. There is definitely a bridge that we must build between our pvp and pve gaming. I will focus on these tonight in a new thread, requesting assistance from you guys. That thread will not be our official thread, but it will be the final draft.