Marauder class representative questions/discussion thread.

[JediMasterSLC]

PTs and Madness Sorc/Sin can dot the crap outta everything and have good looking numbers at the end on the scoreboard but they are not desired in high end PvP.

 

Agree with your post, but if you say PTs are inherently inferior as far as design goes in competitive PVP then you probably didn't play ranked pre-2.0 hehe. Oh wait nevermind I thought you said "designed for", not "desired in"- I'm too lazy to rewrite post. But yeah pretty much....

[Pearlie]

Suggestion:

 

Take the Brutality talent (7.5% crit on Vicious Throw/Slash), and move it to the 5th tier of both the Vengeance and Carnage trees. (For Carnage replace Slash with Massacre, or remove the Slash part entirely if that would be considered OP and just up the crit on Throw to 10%). To compensate, make Rampage and Sever require only two points to reach 30%.

 

Smashers simply do not need the extra crit on those abilities, and the moving the Brutality talent out of the rage tree would help the middle trees for both Juggs and Maras synergize with themselves, because as of now they're struggling to do so.

[Gudarzz]

While it may seem like semantics I was trying to organize around the concept of inopportune Gore windows. If this is the agreed underlying issues I think there are solutions in addition to what you first identified here, including:

 

• Eliminating the Gore proc and reducing the CD of Ravage to 15s. This provides a more opportune Gore window.
  
• Keep the Gore proc, but have it finish the CD on Ravage instead of freeing up Vicious Throw. This reduces the concerns around resource depleted Gore Windows.
  

 

I am sure there are other ideas as well. My purpose in posting on this concept of inopportune Gore windows was to hopefully get others to brainstorm on this.

 

I wanted to address your second idea first: Maintain gore proc and reset ravage instead of vicious throw. I think this might be a bit too much. With berserk, you could hypothetically (with some extra alacrity) fit 2 ravages into single gore, leaving another gore for a massacre + force scream combo. I can't comment on the exact change to dps parses (it would be higher no doubt), but it is easy to see that burst would be ridiculously unmatched. Take any detailed parse and replace vicious throw damage from slaughter procs and replace it with ravage damage. You will see my concern.

 

The first idea is interesting. It lines up abilities a lot better, as you essentially have a ravage for every gore. Compared to pre 2.0 carnage, this idea has some pros and cons. Pros: A ravage for almost every gore and a large window to proc the force scream auto-crit. Cons: Relatively less rage for massacres during the phases in between gores. This is arguable because you would probably use less massacres during gores (hence, using less rage) and have more rage saved for the non-gore windows. Also, what talent would reduce the ravage cooldown? Are we adding this to brooding, etc?

 

Either way, I appreciate these ideas because it brings up some new questions: In addition to my suggestions for gore RNG/protection, should slaughter proc something else? An auto crit execute? Free massacre? Let's explore this.

 

You have responded/refuted many of my posts, but I didn't see any comment on this; I'd be interested to hear your perspectives.

 

I think we are in a unique position in terms of our spec viability. At the very minimum, we have 2 specs that are viable in both the PVP and PVE worlds. Just ask a rated team to take juggernaut smash or mercenary heals! You can see the problems faced by other classes with this. I would generally agree with you that not every spec should be playable in every situation. Attempting to fight for the viability of the 3rd viable PVP/PVE spec is not a personal priority, but the community is somewhat concerned about this. Either way, KBN already addressed this by reserving the PVP question for annihilation and the PVE question for rage.

[CellPerfect]

The first idea is interesting. It lines up abilities a lot better, as you essentially have a ravage for every gore. Compared to pre 2.0 carnage, this idea has some pros and cons. Pros: A ravage for almost every gore and a large window to proc the force scream auto-crit. Cons: Relatively less rage for massacres during the phases in between gores. This is arguable because you would probably use less massacres during gores (hence, using less rage) and have more rage saved for the non-gore windows. Also, what talent would reduce the ravage cooldown? Are we adding this to brooding, etc?

 

Seeing as this option would be getting rid of the gore reset, slaughter would have to be the talent to change. I'm guessing slaughter would be made in to a 3 point talent that would let you reduce the cool down of ravage by 5 seconds per point.

 

Either way, I appreciate these ideas because it brings up some new questions: In addition to my suggestions for gore RNG/protection, should slaughter proc something else? An auto crit execute? Free massacre? Let's explore this.

 

I think an auto crit execute would be a little op (that would literally be about 16-18k in 2 gcds with the 2 auto crits). A crit increase to our execute wouldn't be too bad seeing as that is some huge burst when it crits. This would make our optimal gore windows a ravage > scream (or scream > ravage if you have berserk up) and a scream > execute > massacre.

 

If we do get any fixes for rage management I wouldn't mind seeing our 1 rage per 6 seconds brought back. I believe they got rid of this when 2.0 hit (Blood frenzy used to give us one rage per 6 seconds but now it just refunds one rage when we use force scream with its auto crit proc). I don't think we need a huge boost to rage management but a lot of people want something so I think this would be a good way to do it without making it super easy like rage.

[Megatfx]

Gudarzz its me megapt from pot5. Joined mvp for a little while before 2.0 came out and now i play a bit casually with old friends.

 

Hey bro, im back to playing my old main the sentinal/marauder(play both at 55) I play carnage/combat exclusively as its my fav. Spec. My issue is their is no animation for the crit on force scream proc and i have to stare at buffs constantly. Also the proc to get the crit on force scream is so random and rng it can take forever.

 

Suggestion i have is take away some of the rng by having an ability build shockwaves like in rage before you get autocrit force scream so we can setup burst more consistently. An example would be every massacre or vicious slash (so its not broken for lowbies) gives your force scream an extra 33% chance to crit which consumes the buff as you use force scream. Or it could be every ataru proc gives you an extra 33% chance to crit force scream. It would streamline the rotation outside of execute procs.

 

I wont get into the execute proc as the issues with it and great suggestions have already been spoken about.

 

Go mvp, tell bestworld and bodies i said hey. Cheers.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Megatfx

[Costello]

Having been playing my Marauder a fair bit in PvP the most noticeable thing was the lack of marauders that seemed to PvP. It suggests that the class either isn't fun or isn't fun and isn't very good. I'm sure to a degree you can say learn to play though that doesn't help much.

 

I think a lot of this is because you spend a lot of time chasing people or running them down, which normally results in catching them and getting stunned or knocked back or routed or them just running through you so you have to turn so you can attack again. Making for a lot more work to do any dps as opposed to heat anything within 30 meters. And often this can be healed through due to the slow burst damage or use of DOTs that can be cleansed through. While there was the smash build this is the only real AOE option open to Marauders meaning for two builds we have single target dps that lacks the necessary burst damage to perform its role of out pacing a healers ability to keep someone up.

 

As glass canon's who have to get up close and personal and easily targetable and caught in AOE and often the wrong side of the battle lines to be hitting their healers we lack the stealth options other classes have, any self heals or cleanses or even much damage outside of 5 meters or if lacking the rage. Which makes life short for a marauder and it would be good if something could be done to assist us in PvP.

[UncleOst]

What ever happens, PLEASE do not make any changes to Ataru's 30% alacrity boost. I have whole-heartedly fallen in love with this ability.

 

Thank you and have a good day.

[oofalong]

I wanted to address your second idea first: Maintain gore proc and reset ravage instead of vicious throw. I think this might be a bit too much. With berserk, you could hypothetically (with some extra alacrity) fit 2 ravages into single gore, leaving another gore for a massacre + force scream combo. I can't comment on the exact change to dps parses (it would be higher no doubt), but it is easy to see that burst would be ridiculously unmatched. Take any detailed parse and replace vicious throw damage from slaughter procs and replace it with ravage damage. You will see my concern.

 

While I suppose you technically could fit most of two Ravages in a Gore proc, I am not sure how often it would really. The last two hits or Ravage are the biggest 2X the first four hits, and they happen at the end of the channel.

 

The first idea is interesting. It lines up abilities a lot better, as you essentially have a ravage for every gore. Compared to pre 2.0 carnage, this idea has some pros and cons. Pros: A ravage for almost every gore and a large window to proc the force scream auto-crit. Cons: Relatively less rage for massacres during the phases in between gores. This is arguable because you would probably use less massacres during gores (hence, using less rage) and have more rage saved for the non-gore windows.

 

While it may sound boring, I think a consistent Gore window of Ravage + Force Scream would be pretty good. I think this has the added benefit of having a bit of range as well. Obviously, FS is 10m, and Ravage seems to continue to channel even as the target moves outside of melee range.

 

In any event, the purpose of the idea was to show that when the problem is looked at from a different perspective it can lead to new ideas. Incidentally, I like the idea - I think it was yours - around Gore giving your next three GCDs 100% armor penetration. That solves much of the inopportunity of Gore. I still think there are other good ideas out there though.

 

Also, what talent would reduce the ravage cooldown? Are we adding this to brooding, etc?

 

 

Either way, I appreciate these ideas because it brings up some new questions: In addition to my suggestions for gore RNG/protection, should slaughter proc something else? An auto crit execute? Free massacre? Let's explore this.

 

My first thought is to change Slaughter so that each point invested in it reduces the CD on Ravage by 5s and dump the proc chance altogether. Personally, my hope for this spec is for it to clearly be the burst class. Over a 5m parse on the Dummy I would expect it to be behind Annihilation by ~5%. I feel safe in saying this because many of the boss fights and all of PvP have burst phases where it would become equal to or greater than Annihilation.

 

Attempting to fight for the viability of the 3rd viable PVP/PVE spec is not a personal priority, but the community is somewhat concerned about this.

 

C'mon as class rep can't you convince them they are wrong

 

Other than Sniper, we are the only class with three DPS options and I really want each of them to be unique and specialized. I think they would all have a place, and it would increase the overall utility of the class as you can bring whatever type of DPS is needed in each situation.

 

 

Either way, KBN already addressed this by reserving the PVP question for annihilation and the PVE question for rage.

 

We'll see how the Devs respond to these questions, but in the meantime hopefully we can continue to contemplate Carnage...

[K_osss]

If nothing else I'm enjoying seeing cross class interaction in these threads. Lots of Sentinels in here and vice versa.

[KeyboardNinja]

We'll see how the Devs respond to these questions, but in the meantime hopefully we can continue to contemplate Carnage...

 

I'm definitely looking forward to the Marauder questions. Despite dropping the question from my list, I really do like the idea of poking at Carnage a bit and seeing if we can resolve some of its annoyances.

[Sprgmr]

It's probably better to wait and give them a well thought and precise question rather than simple throw something at them just to do it.

 

That said, isn't part of the appeal of Combat/Carnage is that it doesn't have as solidified a "rotation" compared to WM/Anni or Focus/Rage? There is a degree of randomness that the other trees lack and it adds another element that a skillful player must work with. Would that be worth giving up to make the tree more predictable and static? Yes it could make the slow moments better, but wouldn't it also diminish the moments when everything lines up perfectly?

[Projawa]

It's probably better to wait and give them a well thought and precise question rather than simple throw something at them just to do it.

 

That said, isn't part of the appeal of Combat/Carnage is that it doesn't have as solidified a "rotation" compared to WM/Anni or Focus/Rage? There is a degree of randomness that the other trees lack and it adds another element that a skillful player must work with. Would that be worth giving up to make the tree more predictable and static? Yes it could make the slow moments better, but wouldn't it also diminish the moments when everything lines up perfectly?

 

Yep, the randomness is part of the appeal. After some practice I've grown to like the random element in carnage. i'm ok with them reverting it back to a more static system but I'm of the minority opinion which is such a change would be a step backwards- the uncertainty especially in PVP is what makes it interesting. There are plenty of specs/ACs with relatively static dps priorities. The devs should leave this as is.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Projawa

[Doomkazar]

For PVE rage marauders to make it so they are on par with the two other specs just make some abillity that can only be used on operation bosses or something like that would help out abit cause the only time i use rage atm is for bosses with alot of adds, they just need to fix the single target aspect of it and then it is fine

[kennethdale]

For PVE rage marauders to make it so they are on par with the two other specs just make some abillity that can only be used on operation bosses or something like that would help out abit cause the only time i use rage atm is for bosses with alot of adds, they just need to fix the single target aspect of it and then it is fine

 

But why, why, why, why, why, WHY do Marauder/Sentinels need to have 3 DPS specs all equally viable for PvE? As it stands NOW Carnage and Annihilation are pretty damn close; Carnage can push higher with sustained good RNG and a good player whereas Annihilation requires a lot less RNG but a thought more pre-thought to maintain DPS. Thats pretty even. On top of that the two specs have VASTLY different playstyles - Carnage is fast and loose with a lot of what should be done left up to the player. Annihilation is smooth and precise, you have to time your use of bleeds and Annihilate in order to make everything line up and to keep up Annihilator on movement heavy fights. The only commonality is that both specs pay a very high DPS price for mistakes. Then you have Rage which only a fool would argue against being the highest AoE DPS in the game. Its drop dead simple to play, there is very little in the way of penalties for mistakes, and it puts out insane AoE DPS numbers. Again, the playstyle is completely different from the other 2 trees with the exception that is can AoE which no other Sentinel/Marauder spec can truly do effectively. If you buff the single-target DPS of Rage to be equal to Carnage and Annihilation, you take away ALL incentive to play anything else.

 

In PvP, as has been discussed to death, Annihilation is massively worthless but Carnage is very useful and can be devastating if played well. Rage, again, is drop dead easy and puts out huge numbers. It is an immense amount of pressure on everyone. If you were to buff its single-target DPS then it would remove any desire to bring any other melee class (something that is already hotly debated given that Marauders in general provide the best raid utility in most situations). Buffing Rage makes no sense. Period. Honestly, I think the only people who really want to see it buffed are the Smash Monkeys who cannot play any other spec due to the difficulty level because there is no way to NOT see the MASSIVE balance issue that buffing rage would cause.

 

I even saw a thread talking about nerfing Rage (altering how Shockwave works so as to decrease the AoE) but again, doing so causes a huge problem in that the ONLY reason to play Rage at all is the insane AoE. In between Smashes, you've got really no sustained damage of any kind in PvE or PvP. Add to that the fact that Marauder AoE boils down to: A wide, very short range, low damage conal effect, no CD (Sweeping slash); a narrow, decently long range, moderate damage conal effect, moderate CD (DST); and a short range, AoE, low damage effect, low CD (Smash). Outside of Rage, none of that is even close to viable for group pressure in PvP or dealing with adds in PvE. Nerfing Rage would then mean that in add heavy fights, Marauders are only worth what we can do to the boss while ignoring adds because we would be unable to use resources effectively in killing adds or doing anything other than focusing a target in PvP.

 

Conclusion: Do not buff Rage. Do not nerf Rage. In all actuality, I find it hard to think of anything about our class that is REALLY in need of fixing. There is a lot of symmetry and synergy between the three trees in both PvE and PvP

[MarkXXIV]

But why, why, why, why, why, WHY do Marauder/Sentinels need to have 3 DPS specs all equally viable for PvE? As it stands NOW Carnage and Annihilation are pretty damn close; Carnage can push higher with sustained good RNG and a good player whereas Annihilation requires a lot less RNG but a thought more pre-thought to maintain DPS. Thats pretty even. On top of that the two specs have VASTLY different playstyles - Carnage is fast and loose with a lot of what should be done left up to the player. Annihilation is smooth and precise, you have to time your use of bleeds and Annihilate in order to make everything line up and to keep up Annihilator on movement heavy fights. The only commonality is that both specs pay a very high DPS price for mistakes. Then you have Rage which only a fool would argue against being the highest AoE DPS in the game. Its drop dead simple to play, there is very little in the way of penalties for mistakes, and it puts out insane AoE DPS numbers. Again, the playstyle is completely different from the other 2 trees with the exception that is can AoE which no other Sentinel/Marauder spec can truly do effectively. If you buff the single-target DPS of Rage to be equal to Carnage and Annihilation, you take away ALL incentive to play anything else.

 

In PvP, as has been discussed to death, Annihilation is massively worthless but Carnage is very useful and can be devastating if played well. Rage, again, is drop dead easy and puts out huge numbers. It is an immense amount of pressure on everyone. If you were to buff its single-target DPS then it would remove any desire to bring any other melee class (something that is already hotly debated given that Marauders in general provide the best raid utility in most situations). Buffing Rage makes no sense. Period. Honestly, I think the only people who really want to see it buffed are the Smash Monkeys who cannot play any other spec due to the difficulty level because there is no way to NOT see the MASSIVE balance issue that buffing rage would cause.

 

I even saw a thread talking about nerfing Rage (altering how Shockwave works so as to decrease the AoE) but again, doing so causes a huge problem in that the ONLY reason to play Rage at all is the insane AoE. In between Smashes, you've got really no sustained damage of any kind in PvE or PvP. Add to that the fact that Marauder AoE boils down to: A wide, very short range, low damage conal effect, no CD (Sweeping slash); a narrow, decently long range, moderate damage conal effect, moderate CD (DST); and a short range, AoE, low damage effect, low CD (Smash). Outside of Rage, none of that is even close to viable for group pressure in PvP or dealing with adds in PvE. Nerfing Rage would then mean that in add heavy fights, Marauders are only worth what we can do to the boss while ignoring adds because we would be unable to use resources effectively in killing adds or doing anything other than focusing a target in PvP.

 

Conclusion: Do not buff Rage. Do not nerf Rage. In all actuality, I find it hard to think of anything about our class that is REALLY in need of fixing. There is a lot of symmetry and synergy between the three trees in both PvE and PvP

 

I can't get past the 0 mvp votes I get playing carnage. The total dmg is so low... Go visit the assassin 3 questions forum guys. Why can't we ask for buffs like that?

Edited August 7, 2013 by MarkXXIV

[RankorSSGS]

I can't get past the 0 mvp votes I get playing carnage. The total dmg is so low... Go visit the assassin 3 questions forum guys. Why can't we ask for buffs like that?

 

Because Marauders are ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE NEAR as bad off as Assassins are right now.

[Avicii]

I can't get past the 0 mvp votes I get playing carnage. The total dmg is so low... Go visit the assassin 3 questions forum guys. Why can't we ask for buffs like that?

 

What do your MVP votes have to do with balance? Nothing just because playing a AoE spec that isn't that difficult to pump out great dmg on a scoreboard while carnage you don't do well. Doesn't mean Carnage sucks maybe you aren't as good with it or you aren't use to the play style with the procs. Point being you can't balance based on that. Watch Guda play carnage in his past broadcasts he puts up good numbers and gets MVP votes, what does that say for balance?

 

As for sins they are in a different completely different place.

[KeyboardNinja]

I even saw a thread talking about nerfing Rage (altering how Shockwave works so as to decrease the AoE) but again, doing so causes a huge problem in that the ONLY reason to play Rage at all is the insane AoE.

 

Have you considered that maybe some people like to play Focus/Rage because of the playstyle? Has it occurred to you that maybe those people are very disappointed that their chosen spec (which is very different from the other two) is not balanced to the mean in PvE? This is really no different than all of the people who are upset that Watchman/Annihilation doesn't work well in PvP, except that there are more people who like Watchman/Annihilation and therefore a significantly larger chorus of voices clamoring for a fix.

[MarkXXIV]

What do your MVP votes have to do with balance? Nothing just because playing a AoE spec that isn't that difficult to pump out great dmg on a scoreboard while carnage you don't do well. Doesn't mean Carnage sucks maybe you aren't as good with it or you aren't use to the play style with the procs. Point being you can't balance based on that. Watch Guda play carnage in his past broadcasts he puts up good numbers and gets MVP votes, what does that say for balance?

 

As for sins they are in a different completely different place.

 

single target ranged dps put out high total dmg pretty easily. Total damage matters to me when comparing carnage to specs like marksman/arsenal/lightning, they aren't fluff dmg but still get much higher numbers. I am mainly talking about reg wz without a pocket healer. In reg wz I think carnage is at a disadvantage compared to ranged dps because of it being 4 meter, without anything to make up for it besides 12second saber ward with a 3min cd.

Rage at least has more survivability and the best aoe dmg in the game. You can probably find vids of good players making it work but I bet there are vids of ranged dps doing even better. Judging from the top parses I think carnage should be buffed, maybe not its damage but in other areas. It is a 4 meter class but parses about the same as 30-35meter classes and doesn't have major advantages like sniper being 35meter with a ton of cc,20%ranged dmg reduction almost 100% of the time, and cc imunity. That is just how I feel after playing carnage in wz and from what I know about it. Looking for others to comment on this, so I can learn more and be corrected if I am wrong. Just respecced rage, top dmg almost every game -__-.

Edited August 8, 2013 by MarkXXIV

[Costello]

single target ranged dps put out high total dmg pretty easily. Total damage matters to me when comparing carnage to specs like marksman/arsenal/lightning, they aren't fluff dmg but still get much higher numbers. I am mainly talking about reg wz without a pocket healer. In reg wz I think carnage is at a disadvantage compared to ranged dps because of it being 4 meter, without anything to make up for it besides 12second saber ward with a 3min cd.

Rage at least has more survivability and the best aoe dmg in the game. You can probably find vids of good players making it work but I bet there are vids of ranged dps doing even better. Judging from the top parses I think carnage should be buffed, maybe not its damage but in other areas. It is a 4 meter class but parses about the same as 30-35meter classes and doesn't have major advantages like sniper being 35meter with a ton of cc,20%ranged dmg reduction almost 100% of the time, and cc imunity. That is just how I feel after playing carnage in wz and from what I know about it. Looking for others to comment on this, so I can learn more and be corrected if I am wrong. Just respecced rage, top dmg almost every game -__-.

 

I have to agree.

 

I know dps isn't everything but when Carnage is ment to be our sustained DPS choice PvP warzones are showing this isn't working. Our damage isn't up to the task of ranged damage dealers.

 

We have such a low survivability we can't toe to toe in PvP as all it takes is a fly by, motor volley, earthquake ect and we are getting torn to shreds before you even have to think about directed dps. And so that's what half decent PvPers do they flood their own healers with aoe damage which due to a lack of friendly fire just hurts us if we try and take their healers down. Where as ranged can just stand outside of it.

 

Then we have the knock backs, aoe stuns, targeted stuns, slows and every other CC that screw our ability to do any damahe. All it takes is a knock back as you start ravage and you are on cool down but even CC isn't necessary despite a route effect it seems half the time people run away or roll away. But even should it hit because we now have to build rage our follow ups can't do the dps that isn't easy for a healer to get back to full health. How I have no idea but even piss poor healers seem to manage despite me unleashing everything I have got often using berserk to try and get the burn down.

 

On the flip side I love to see Sents on the other side, I know that I will be getting my kill score up and easily picking up some medals for damage output. Even better is if they are tying up a healer who tries to keep them up, its far easier to burn them down than it ever is trying to take the healer down. Who are either in heavy armour, stealth or have a force barrier.

 

Carnage doesn't have the spike damage to take people down quick enough, doesn't have the fire and forget option of dots where you can tie healers up or any real aoe damage where you can do some serious damage even if it is spread to 5 people and let your ranged pick them off afterwards.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Costello

[CellPerfect]

I know dps isn't everything but when Carnage is ment to be our sustained DPS choice PvP warzones are showing this isn't working. Our damage isn't up to the task of ranged damage dealers.

 

Carnage is burst damage and it is arguably the best single target burst in the game. It is just easy to shut down which is part of the reason why ranged damage dealers will do more damage on the scoreboard. It does have good sustained damage but when people interrupt gore, it's damage goes to crap (rage will actually have higher single target damage that carnage if every gore is interrupted).

 

We have such a low survivability we can't toe to toe in PvP as all it takes is a fly by, motor volley, earthquake ect and we are getting torn to shreds before you even have to think about directed dps. And so that's what half decent PvPers do they flood their own healers with aoe damage which due to a lack of friendly fire just hurts us if we try and take their healers down. Where as ranged can just stand outside of it.

 

Marauders have arguably the best survivability / defensive cool downs in the game. Carnage actually got a buff to its survivability with 2.0 and from what I have seen it is fine. If you manage them right then you should be incredibly hard to kill. We get...

1. 20% damage reduction on for 6 seconds that can be made to last for 30 seconds (1 minute cd)
   
2. 12 seconds of 25% reduced force and tech damage and +50% melee and ranged damage reduction (for a base line of 55%, not to mention other talents and abilities that buff this up to a max of 71%) (3 minute cd)
   
3. 90% melee and ranged accuracy reduction for 6 seconds (1 minute cd)
   
4. In combat stealth that also breaks roots (so you can get away even easier) (45 second cd)
   
5. 99% damage reduction for 5 seconds, spends 50% of your current hp to use it but assuming you use it properly this amount of hp is quite insignificant (1 minute, 15 second cd I believe)
   
6. A passive 30% aoe damage reduction
   
7. 6% damage reduction (almost totally passive)
   
8. 6% increased melee and ranged defensive (almost totally passive) (can be chained with saber ward)
   
9. 80% speed increase and 10% increased melee and ranged damage reduction that your teammates also benefit from (can be chained with saber ward)
   

I hope I didn't miss anything there, but as you can see, we get a lot of powerful defensive abilities on rather short cds. The only long cd is saber ward and that is extremely powerful. So yes, ranged can just stand outside of the aoes, but we have the survivability to be able to take some of that damage where as ranged don't. Obviously you shouldn't go and stand in every aoe but that damage reduction is huge. Also ranged have to deal with los. If a ranged is attacking someone, the person can just move out of their line of sight and the ranged loses most, if not all of their damage for a time. Ranged also have to cast a lot of abilities where as we get every ability to be an instant cast (except ravage). Ranged can be shut down by the same ccs that we can, but they can be interrupted (with the exception of the sniper).

 

On the flip side I love to see Sents on the other side, I know that I will be getting my kill score up and easily picking up some medals for damage output. Even better is if they are tying up a healer who tries to keep them up, its far easier to burn them down than it ever is trying to take the healer down. Who are either in heavy armour, stealth or have a force barrier.

 

There's a few possibilities for this. The healer could have guard while the sentinel doesn't. Healers will typically try to keep themselves alive first, so that sentinel won't be getting heals as much. And there are a lot more depending on the situation, it just depends really.

 

Carnage doesn't have the spike damage to take people down quick enough, doesn't have the fire and forget option of dots where you can tie healers up or any real aoe damage where you can do some serious damage even if it is spread to 5 people and let your ranged pick them off afterwards.

 

Carnage actually can strait up kill a person in 4.5 - 9 seconds. You have to be practically free casting to do it, but I can't think of any other classes that have the potential to kill a person that quick.

[MarkXXIV]

Compare lethality sniper to annihilation and marksman to carnage. Sniper seems to have the 35meter versions of carnage and annihilation that are much easier to play, much more effective, and just better trees overall. Not only this but sniper hardly needs a healer, a marauder without a pocket healer in carnage or annihilation is going to be doing a lot of more respawning since they can just cc you before you use your cd.

[MarkXXIV]

Carnage is burst damage and it is arguably the best single target burst in the game. It is just easy to shut down which is part of the reason why ranged damage dealers will do more damage on the scoreboard. It does have good sustained damage but when people interrupt gore, it's damage goes to crap (rage will actually have higher single target damage that carnage if every gore is interrupted)..

 

 

With how many cc/knockbacks there are this happens way to often and marauder has 0 protection against this. Sniper has cc imunity, can't be interrupted, and has the best cc's In the game, sorc can break cc with barrier and has cc's, merc can instant cast, eletronet and has cc's. Marauder has the worst cc's in the game and is the most vulnerable to them than probably any other class (no stun, you need to be almost in melee range for roar/breaks on damage, can't attack while choking). Carnage has a root on ravage which is almost worthless, has a root on deadly throw which cost a lot of rage, and a root on leap which can only be used if you get the first attack and gives you no cc protection.

 

Marauders have arguably the best survivability / defensive cool downs in the game. Carnage actually got a buff to its survivability with 2.0 and from what I have seen it is fine. If you manage them right then you should be incredibly hard to kill. We get...

1. 20% damage reduction on for 6 seconds that can be made to last for 30 seconds (1 minute cd)
   
2. 12 seconds of 25% reduced force and tech damage and +50% melee and ranged damage reduction (for a base line of 55%, not to mention other talents and abilities that buff this up to a max of 71%) (3 minute cd)
   
3. 90% melee and ranged accuracy reduction for 6 seconds (1 minute cd)
   
4. In combat stealth that also breaks roots (so you can get away even easier) (45 second cd)
   
5. 99% damage reduction for 5 seconds, spends 50% of your current hp to use it but assuming you use it properly this amount of hp is quite insignificant (1 minute, 15 second cd I believe)
   
6. A passive 30% aoe damage reduction
   
7. 6% damage reduction (almost totally passive)
   
8. 6% increased melee and ranged defensive (almost totally passive) (can be chained with saber ward)
   
9. 80% speed increase and 10% increased melee and ranged damage reduction that your teammates also benefit from (can be chained with saber ward)
   

I hope I didn't miss anything there, but as you can see, we get a lot of powerful defensive abilities on rather short cds. The only long cd is saber ward and that is extremely powerful. So yes, ranged can just stand outside of the aoes, but we have the survivability to be able to take some of that damage where as ranged don't. Obviously you shouldn't go and stand in every aoe but that damage reduction is huge. Also ranged have to deal with los. If a ranged is attacking someone, the person can just move out of their line of sight and the ranged loses most, if not all of their damage for a time. Ranged also have to cast a lot of abilities where as we get every ability to be an instant cast (except ravage). Ranged can be shut down by the same ccs that we can, but they can be interrupted (with the exception of the sniper).

 

A lot of these aren't up much of the time, cloak of pain can be down for 40-56 seconds,saber ward down for 168 seconds, because of berserk you can't use predation often in a fight, frenzied sabers only takes effect once you have done several attacks in melee range(and probably have already taken a lot of damage), dots(snipers especially) destroy you much of the time you stealth, and when you use undying they can easily cc or knockback you and then finish you or you can just die because of lag. You need to get within 10meters with obfuscate but it is pretty good for 1v1 although it doesn't stop them from ccing you , running away, or using cd. Marauder does not have anything like the cc's ranged classes have. The only interrupt marauder have outside of 4meter is its leap. Marauder relies on building rage, procs, and ravage for a lot of its damage so being instant doesn't help as much as it should. Marauder is good against ranged 1v1 but in 8v8 you shouldn't have to do too much 1v1 where you don't get the first strike as a ranged class. Lol at line of sight, ranged classes have line of sight because they are 30-35meter, unless you are running away or a dot spec how does line of sight help you?(all ranged dps have a dot cleanse...)

 

Carnage actually can strait up kill a person in 4.5 - 9 seconds. You have to be practically free casting to do it, but I can't think of any other classes that have the potential to kill a person that quick.

 

judging from playing the other burst dps classes and looking at the top parses carnage burst dmg doesn't make up for all its shortcomings, marksman, lightning, arsenal, and lethality all have great burst dmg as well without much of the difficulties marauder have to deal with. If deception and concealment get sustained dmg like they are asking for in the forum then they could be in that list too. Carnage generally parses lower than sniper and about the same as a merc, both merc and sniper can start their sustained dmg at 30meter+ and don't have a problem continuing to do damage, carnage on the other hand has to get within 4 meters and stay there to do damage without the aid of effective cc, protection against cc, or other useful tools (like what other classes have), while your opponent is doing their best to cc you, kill you, and avoid staying within 4 meters of you.

 

If sniper can get 40meter executes(takedown), cc imunity(entrench), crazy burst/sustained dmg, 35 meter attacks, the best cc in the game, a dot cleanse, one of the best escapes in the game, the most reliable dmg in the game, interrupt immunity, dmg reduction(ballistic damper), 20% ranged defense,60% aoe dmg reduction, reliable armor reduction/health reduction in 1 move(shatter shot), the best dots in the game, no reliance on luck for procs, one of the best resource pools(unlimited in marksman), and a 9% cunning bonus. Then why can't marauder get some skills to make it more effective?

 

Rage the only marauder spec that I think is fine, can put up huge numbers with aoe dmg, marksman and lethality can put up similiar numbers with single target burst dmg... I don't understand why you guys think non rage marauder is fine, If the other classes get what their asking for marauder might fall behind after these questions imo.

Edited August 8, 2013 by MarkXXIV

[Maelael]

If sniper can get 40meter executes(takedown), cc imunity(entrench), crazy burst/sustained dmg, 35 meter attacks, the best cc in the game, a dot cleanse, one of the best escapes in the game, the most reliable dmg in the game, interrupt immunity, dmg reduction(ballistic damper), 20% ranged defense,60% aoe dmg reduction, reliable armor reduction/health reduction in 1 move(shatter shot), the best dots in the game, no reliance on luck for procs, one of the best resource pools(unlimited in marksman), and a 9% cunning bonus. Then why can't marauder can some skills to make it more effective?

 

Although I find it hard to agree with a lot of your posts, this part of this post is spot on for a good chunk of the details in examining the difference between a sniper and a mara. I really don't think most people realize how much a sniper can do.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Maelael

[MarkXXIV]

Although I find it hard to agree with a lot of your posts, this part of this post is spot on for a good chunk of the details in examining the difference between a sniper and a mara. I really don't think most people realize how much a sniper can do.

 

Let me know what you disagree with and why. My views don't change unless someone helps me see why I am wrong.(If I am wrong)

Edited August 8, 2013 by MarkXXIV