The REAL Most Powerful Sith

[Selenial]

OK so guys for 9 is it up between Traya and the sith Lady Lumiya right now. this is really tough to call as Lumiya was quite powerful, though most of her success in duels was do to her unorthodox weapon, I will need to look into this one more its very interesting indeed.

 

I'd say Traya for #9, Traya could take on the Oponents Lumiya could without having to rely on unorthodox weapons, and Traya mastered Sorcery to an extent Lumiya never did...

But Lumiya would be a major contender for #10.

[LadyKulvax]

I agree, Traya should get it, not Lumiya.

[Aurbere]

I've never really seen Lumiya do anything that impressive with the Force. Aside from Force Phantoms, of course.

[marcelo_sdk]

I see some people ahead of Lumyia. Tyranus is clearly more powerful, just to name one. In fact, I would give him #9, I don't have much doubt that he's more powerful than Traya.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I'm not really recalling any great Force feats from Dooku, so I dunno bout putting him ahead of Traya.

[TalonVII]

I'm not really recalling any great Force feats from Dooku, so I dunno bout putting him ahead of Traya.

 

I'm with Traya. I mean floating 3 lightsabers and fighting with all of them, pretty impressive if you ask me.

[Beniboybling]

*snip*

This isn't about canon or any of that crap. Take that somewhere else.

 

What I take issue with is your attitude. You've brought no new material to the table, made no effort to support your argument with evidence, insulted other participants in this thread and then have the audacity to dictate to me on how I should be running it. And then, said the thread was a waste of time. Do you expect people to respect you for that? No they are just going to ignore you no matter how valid your arguments may be.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

I'm with Traya. I mean floating 3 lightsabers and fighting with all of them, pretty impressive if you ask me.

 

Indeed.

And stop me if im wrong, but was that not after Surik attempted to sever her connection to the force?

 

Besides, Dooku was a master of.... nothing really. The guy learnt an array of force powers, never truly mastering any... He learnt obscure powers, and a few higher forms but he never mastered them to the extent he could compete with Traya... Traya one-shot 3 Jedi masters

She brought 2 people, and herself, back from the verge of death,

She slaughtered a group of Sith Assassins without even looking at them,

She batted Sion aside like he was nothing...

 

She was more powerful than Dooku, it's pretty obvious to me.

[Aurbere]

Besides, Dooku was a master of.... nothing really.

 

Umm... what?

[Selenial]

Umm... what?

 

He never really delved into a certain field and became the best in it... His lightning wasn't even close to the most powerful we've seen, he never managed Force Drain, he never managed things like the Force Maelstrom or Project Storm.... He learnt a lot of things, but never became the best at them/Learnt the most powerful powers.

 

Granted he was an incredible swordsmen.

[Beniboybling]

Umm... what?

I can't help but agree with Selenial. He was great in all different areas, but he never achieved true mastery.

[Aurbere]

He never really delved into a certain field and became the best in it... His lightning wasn't even close to the most powerful we've seen, he never managed Force Drain, he never managed things like the Force Maelstrom or Project Storm.... He learnt a lot of things, but never became the best at them/Learnt the most powerful powers.

 

Granted he was an incredible swordsmen.

 

Granted he never became the best in a certain area (except for Makashi), but to say that he never mastered anything is in defiance of actual canon.

 

Sure he never used Maelstrom, or Vader-esque telekinetic assaults, but he did master certain aspects of the Force.

[TalonVII]

Granted he never became the best in a certain area (except for Makashi), but to say that he never mastered anything is in defiance of actual canon.

 

Sure he never used Maelstrom, or Vader-esque telekinetic assaults, but he did master certain aspects of the Force.

 

question is which ones?

[Aurbere]

question is which ones?

 

The more basic Sith abilities.

[TalonVII]

The more basic Sith abilities.

 

and that's the thing he didn't master higher level abilities. Granted he's a strong opponent, and damn good with a lightsaber, but in the end, I think that's a large reason he lost his head to anakin. He didn't develop advanced abilities.

[Aurbere]

and that's the thing he didn't master higher level abilities. Granted he's a strong opponent, and damn good with a lightsaber, but in the end, I think that's a large reason he lost his head to anakin. He didn't develop advanced abilities.

 

I suppose that's true.

[S_W_LeGenD]

This isn't about canon or any of that crap. Take that somewhere else.

 

What I take issue with is your attitude. You've brought no new material to the table, made no effort to support your argument with evidence, insulted other participants in this thread and then have the audacity to dictate to me on how I should be running it. And then, said the thread was a waste of time. Do you expect people to respect you for that? No they are just going to ignore you no matter how valid your arguments may be.

Beni, I have offered sufficient information about Vitiate in this thread alone (first two posts in particular): http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=651536

 

I have offered some information/explanation in this thread as well: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=626813&page=27

 

Only Sidious (DE) is a worthy rival of Vitiate; no other Sith comes close. This is why I advised you to revisit your rankings in this thread; I advised you to put Vitiate and Sidious in a TIER and others below this TIER. If you are willing to listen to others and discredit my responses (only) then do so with merit instead of using excuses to reject my suggestions.

 

Also, what is your justification for placing Darth Caedus above Vitiate? You have yet to answer this question. I am not interested in answers like what other fans think; I want a real justification.

Edited July 25, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Beniboybling]

Beni, I have offered sufficient information about Vitiate in this thread alone (first two posts in particular): http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=651536.

And what about that information concerning your comments about Malgus, Krayt and Vader? Where might I find that?

Also, what is your justification for placing Darth Caedus above Vitiate? You have yet to answer this question. I am not interested in answers like what other fans think; I want a real justification.

To quote LadyKulvak:

Darth Caedus was incredibly powerful in a time when power had an entirely new measuring stick to match up to.

 

Though he was not proficient in the more esoteric and ancient powers of the Dark Side, he was still extremely powerful in all other aspects, whether it be in the Force, Lightsaber combat or other theatres of power.

 

He was so skilled in Battle Meld he turned the minds of seventeen Jedi into one cohesive hive-mind that he was the focus of, he could project false Force Presences at will, his Healing Trance saved others from death, including himself and was so advanced at healing his own body that he could freely manipulate his own body in any way he needed.

 

He had gotten so powerful in the force during the Vong War that when he achieved Oneness, he was the most powerful being in the entirety of recorded history, becoming closer to the Force than anything ever had before.

 

His Tutaminis was incredibly powerful, to the point of absorbing force based attacks(Including Grand Master Luke Skywalker's) and redirecting them.

 

His knowledge of the force deepened as a Jedi during the Vong War to the point of being able to discharge green Force Lightning that instantly paralysed his Vong opponents.

 

His ability to cloak himself in the Force was unrivalled to the point of cutting himself off from the force to the bear minimum of connections, he could even change what other force sensitives could sense when searching for him through the Force, even including his Uncle.

 

His ability with Mind Control was extremely powerful, even being able to totally block off sections of his mind so as to be unreadable by any one, even his Uncle.

 

He even learnt the ability to Teleport things across considerable distances.

 

He could even see the Past and the Future and what either would be depending on the parameters he himself set on them, allowing him extremely accurate depictions of the future.

 

He also had the ability to cause discharges in the spinal cords of even some of the most powerful of opponents, paralysing them till he relented.

 

He also wielded the ability to summon illusions, so powerful that it was extremely convincing and often impossible to judge whether it was reality or illusion and could even allow the viewer's mind to decide whom the projection was and using their mind itself to convince them, this ability eventually allowed him to breach into a victim's mind and force his own will upon it, effectively making them puppets.

 

He could use Force Sever on some of the most powerful Force Users of his time, as well as restore the connection he'd taken away, at will.

 

As a Sith Lord his Force Lightning could morph opponents until the point where species identification became nearly impossible, his use of Force Choke was also incredible, with the ability to use it on multiple powerful Jedi Knights at once, breaching all of their force barriers.

 

His Sith Battle Meditation was also very impressive, allowing his forces to fight against extremely overwhelming odds, turning extreme losses into victories with ease.

 

He eventually developed the ability to use the Force at such high degrees it was not safe for his body, allowing him unlimited power in short spurts and he was incredibly proficient in this ability, especially after his moment of oneness.

 

His mastery over Force Speed was particularly impressive allowing him to not only make Battlemaster Kyle Katarn look like a youngling, he even injured his Uncle severely in lightsaber combat and was so fast it caught Luke off guard and because of it, Luke nearly lost his right arm, if that doesn't show absolute mastery over Force Speed and lightsaber combat, what the hell does, because he's effectively fought a far more powerful version of Luke than the one that faced Reborn Palpatine, using the measuring stick of Luke Skywalker, he was a faster duellist than Darth Sidious, the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

 

Darth Caedus has faced the two most powerful Jedi of the entire post-ROTJ era, Luke Skywalker and Jaina Solo, against Skywalker he managed to put up a tremendous fight and almost took off Luke's arm in a burst of speed.

 

His first engagement against Jaina Solo showed he was far beyond her, even injured as he was, she got absolutely dismantled and she only managed to kill him because he frankly wasn't paying her much attention and was severely injured, with one arm gone, one crippled leg and a hole through his stomach, he still took off one of her arms and managed to force wave her into a wall and still carried on, if he had chosen, he could have killed her, he chose otherwise.

GM Luke Skywalker stated that Darth Caedus, given a standard year, would surpass his own incredible power, Caedus made the most powerful of his era, besides his own Uncle, look amateur hour by comparison, including the likes of Kyle Katarn, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I thoroughly believe that Darth Caedus was the second most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

 

And as I said in response to this, given that Luke is 60% more powerful than Sidious coming close to such power deserves such a high position. That said it is open for debate.

[S_W_LeGenD]

And what about that information concerning your comments about Malgus, Krayt and Vader? Where might I find that?

I would like to focus on one character at a time.

 

Malgus is superior to both Krayt and Vader, IMO. Sidious regarded him as one of his strongest predecessors with some unparalleled accomplishments. Sidious is in good position to evaluate Malgus vis-à-vis Vader.

 

Krayt versus Vader, is a tough debate though; Krayt had advantage in "command of the Force" aspect while Vader had advantage in "raw power" aspect.

 

To quote LadyKulvak:

Thanks for sharing this information! Much of OP's post is filled with hyperbole actually. You found that argument compelling?

 

Watch me rip her argument apart without much effort.

 

---

 

Darth Caedus was incredibly powerful in a time when power had an entirely new measuring stick to match up to.

You mean Luke Skywalker? Luke is "a master of the Force" for sure but is he the only one? No.

 

Analogy: Luke could not defeat Lord Nyax in a duel even though he was already touted as the most powerful Jedi in history during this time. Lord Nyax managed to fight the trio of Luke, Mara and Tahiri simultaneously. Tahiri's smartness and Vong's interference turned the tide of this battle.

 

Luke is certainly the luckiest character in the mythos since authors always find ways to keep him alive and often grant him graceful exit from difficult situations via PIS (Plot Induced Stupidity); in simple terms, Luke benefits from being GL's darling.

 

Though he was not proficient in the more esoteric and ancient powers of the Dark Side, he was still extremely powerful in all other aspects, whether it be in the Force, Lightsaber combat or other theatres of power.

Jacen / Caedus is actually noted for his proficiency in esoteric talents.

 

He was so skilled in Battle Meld he turned the minds of seventeen Jedi into one cohesive hive-mind that he was the focus of,

Good for him! Now how exactly this talent favor his combat abilities / power? Clearly this is an example of Jacen's proficiency in esoteric talents.

 

he could project false Force Presences at will,

A talent not exclusive to him.

 

his Healing Trance saved others from death, including himself and was so advanced at healing his own body that he could freely manipulate his own body in any way he needed.

Decent ability but useless in a dire situation.

 

Analogy: Revan also packed exceptional healing abilities but this didn't grant him advantage in combat against Vitiate.

 

He had gotten so powerful in the force during the Vong War that when he achieved Oneness, he was the most powerful being in the entirety of recorded history, becoming closer to the Force than anything ever had before.

Hyperbole! He isn't the only one to achieve oneness with the Force.

 

Should I mention a list?

 

Also, Luke have a comparable feat; didn't help him against Abeloth.

 

His Tutaminis was incredibly powerful, to the point of absorbing force based attacks(Including Grand Master Luke Skywalker's) and redirecting them.

Decent talent; Revan and Yoda are also masters of this talent (Revan even more-so). However, this talent flopped against Vitiate; his dark side abilities are so potent. On top of this, Vitiate have the option to bypass all kinds of formal defenses via his Sith Sorcery skills (double-edged sword).

 

His knowledge of the force deepened as a Jedi during the Vong War to the point of being able to discharge green Force Lightning that instantly paralysed his Vong opponents.

Vitiate could unleash swirling storms of pure dark side energies which could reduce even the mightiest of the Jedi to ash.

 

His ability to cloak himself in the Force was unrivalled to the point of cutting himself off from the force to the bear minimum of connections, he could even change what other force sensitives could sense when searching for him through the Force, even including his Uncle.

These talents are not exclusive to Jacen / Caedus. Also, a Force-user with extraordinary senses can see through such deceptions. For example: Revan could determine the presence of a Force-user from even a miniscule hint from across the span of the galaxy; only a "wound in the Force" could escape his detection.

 

His ability with Mind Control was extremely powerful, even being able to totally block off sections of his mind so as to be unreadable by any one, even his Uncle.

Vitiate is the TOP-DOG in this aspect:

 

 

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side’s power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. His corrupting influence is so complete that none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred. The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi’s connection to the light side. Jedi Master Tol Braga’s strike team was not the first group to succumb to the Sith leader’s oppressive influence. Hundreds of years ago, the Jedi Revan and Malak discovered Dromund Kaas and confronted the Emperor. They fell to the dark side and returned to Republic space as Sith Lords. Since then, dozens more Jedi have followed the same path into evil. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Game Codex Entry)

 

 

Fore more information, check this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=651536

 

Sidious, Nyax and Revan have also demonstrated extreme proficiency in this talent.

 

He even learnt the ability to Teleport things across considerable distances.

Clearly this is an example of Jacen's proficiency in esoteric talents.

 

He could even see the Past and the Future and what either would be depending on the parameters he himself set on them, allowing him extremely accurate depictions of the future.

Revan and Scourge were also excellent in this aspect. However, this talent actually proved to be disastrous in a contest against Vitiate because it confused Scourge and this led to failure of Revan's plan.

 

He also had the ability to cause discharges in the spinal cords of even some of the most powerful of opponents, paralysing them till he relented.

An example of this?

 

Vitiate snapped the neck of his (step) father at the age of 6; his very first action using the Force. In addition, Zannah also snapped the necks of two Jedi at a very young age. Imagine what these two could do during their prime...

 

He also wielded the ability to summon illusions, so powerful that it was extremely convincing and often impossible to judge whether it was reality or illusion and could even allow the viewer's mind to decide whom the projection was and using their mind itself to convince them, this ability eventually allowed him to breach into a victim's mind and force his own will upon it, effectively making them puppets.

Vitiate also excelled in these talents.

 

He could use Force Sever on some of the most powerful Force Users of his time, as well as restore the connection he'd taken away, at will.

And who are these "some of the most powerful Force-users of his time"?

 

By the way, Vitiate broke both the mind and Force-connection of Sith Lord Dramath (ruler of a planet), at the age of 10. Imagine, what he could do after his transformation many years later...

 

As a Sith Lord his Force Lightning could morph opponents until the point where species identification became nearly impossible,

Nyriss could do this to even (legitimately) powerful Force-users with her FL abilities. In contrast, Vitiate set the bar too high in this talent.

 

his use of Force Choke was also incredible, with the ability to use it on multiple powerful Jedi Knights at once, breaching all of their force barriers.

A feat not exclusive to Jacen / Caedus.

 

Some examples:

 

1. Malak once Force-choked multiple Jedi simultaneously who reached his position on Star Forge

2. Dooku once Force-choked Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously

3. Ventress once Force-choked Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously

4. Opress once Force-choked Ventress and Dooku simultaneously

 

His Sith Battle Meditation was also very impressive, allowing his forces to fight against extremely overwhelming odds, turning extreme losses into victories with ease.

Impressive talent but irrelevant to personal combat abilities / power discussion.

 

He eventually developed the ability to use the Force at such high degrees it was not safe for his body, allowing him unlimited power in short spurts and he was incredibly proficient in this ability, especially after his moment of oneness.

What do you mean by not safe for his body?

 

His mastery over Force Speed was particularly impressive allowing him to not only make Battlemaster Kyle Katarn look like a youngling, he even injured his Uncle severely in lightsaber combat and was so fast it caught Luke off guard and because of it, Luke nearly lost his right arm, if that doesn't show absolute mastery over Force Speed and lightsaber combat, what the hell does, because he's effectively fought a far more powerful version of Luke than the one that faced Reborn Palpatine, using the measuring stick of Luke Skywalker, he was a faster duellist than Darth Sidious, the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

Caedus's face-saving accomplishment, which places him among the best duelists, IMO.

 

However, up against Vitiate, such skills are mostly useless; most did not even got the chance to get close enough to Vitiate to strike him down. HoT got lucky due to circumstances being in his favor.

 

Also, Luke, being far more powerful during this stage (from his DE era incarnation), is an opinion; not a fact. Luke certainly improved in "command of the Force" aspect at this point.

 

Darth Caedus has faced the two most powerful Jedi of the entire post-ROTJ era, Luke Skywalker and Jaina Solo, against Skywalker he managed to put up a tremendous fight and almost took off Luke's arm in a burst of speed.

He isn't the only one to handle Luke. The example of Lord Nyax affirms my point that Luke isn't the unstoppable juggernaut that fans try to portray him to be.

 

Heck, Exar Kun also humiliated Luke (NJO).

 

His first engagement against Jaina Solo showed he was far beyond her, even injured as he was, she got absolutely dismantled and she only managed to kill him because he frankly wasn't paying her much attention and was severely injured, with one arm gone, one crippled leg and a hole through his stomach, he still took off one of her arms and managed to force wave her into a wall and still carried on, if he had chosen, he could have killed her, he chose otherwise.

Impressive! But Jaina isn't a powerhouse either. Mara puts Jaina to shame.

 

I am sorry, but HE is clearly in another league, not the other way around.

In comparison to Vitiate, he is just like any other individual whom the latter broke/subdued in a fight. Nothing special.

 

I have yet to even begin talking about Vitiate's capabilities.

 

---

 

And as I said in response to this, given that Luke is 60% more powerful than Sidious coming close to such power deserves such a high position. That said it is open for debate.

And these statistics are coming from where?

 

Luke does not matches Sidious (immortal) in power / command of the Force aspects. The "ground realities" of Sidious (immortal) are vastly different from the "ground realities" of Sidious (mortal); it is possible that Luke surpassed Sidious (mortal) in power / command of the Force aspects but he is logically heavily outclassed by Sidious (immortal) because the latter incarnation (of Sidious) was drawing strength from inhabitants of planet Byss and therefore his source of strength is not natural and too enormous for a mortal to ever wield.

 

Now don't try to pull a GL trump card here because his revelation is applicable to "ground realities" of only G-canon depictions.

Edited July 26, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[LadyKulvax]

2/3rds of the rebuttals you just made were laughable and frankly I am not even going to bother arguing with you, you haven't even realised that Luke is the most powerful jedi ever and thus the showings of power Caedus could display against his uncle FAR surpasses anything ever shown in the Old Republic era.

 

Not to mention you completely disregarded the statement that given another year to grow in power he would have gotten more powerful than someone who was 200% of the power of Sidious.

 

But you never do make actual arguments just basically wave away points like they dont matter.

[S_W_LeGenD]

2/3rds of the rebuttals you just made were laughable and frankly I am not even going to bother arguing with you, you haven't even realised that Luke is the most powerful jedi ever and thus the showings of power Caedus could display against his uncle FAR surpasses anything ever shown in the Old Republic era

What is this then:

 

"Luke could not defeat Lord Nyax in a duel even though he was already touted as the most powerful Jedi in history during this time."

 

???

 

Also, being most powerful doesn't makes you excellent in all aspects of the Force; it is more of a reflection of raw power of a Force-wielder. In addition, your "FAR surpasses" claim is a subjective one; not a concrete fact. If Luke was so powerful (as you try to portray him to be), he would have been untouchable during his days as a Jedi Master at least, but this isn't the case.

 

You are likely to ignore me because I can crack your arguments with relative ease.

 

Not to mention you completely disregarded the statement that given another year to grow in power he would have gotten more powerful than someone who was 200% of the power of Sidious.

Learn to differentiate G-canon Sidious from C-canon Sidious (DE era); their is monstrous difference in capabilities of both of these incarnations of the same character.

 

Time and again, GL have pointed out that he doesn't represents EU content. Want me to post his (actual) statements here?

 

But you never do make actual arguments just basically wave away points like they dont matter.

I have shared lot of information here about different facets of Star Wars; it is not my fault, if you are not checking out my responses. In this scenario, I would address what you pinpoint to me directly. Your conceptualization about certain aspects of the mythos is misplaced. I have went to great lengths to explain how GL perceives Star Wars and how his statements are to be interpreted accordingly, in my responses to several other members in different threads thus far. It becomes tiresome to repeat same thing over and over again. Still, I am willing to address your points with as much information as possible, should the need arise and you show interest.

Edited July 26, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[marcelo_sdk]

S_W_LeGenD, we already discussed the Caedus vs. Vitiate theme, I personally agree with you, I think Vitiate is more powerful than Caedus, especially if we evaluate only Force power. But we agreed to retake that matter when the list is over, so have a little patience, and we'll get back to this matter.

[Beniboybling]

Funny, before I was unsure on whether Caedus was more powerful than the Sith Emperor. But Legend's attempt to 'rip apart' Rayla's arguments have convinced me that this is the case. Anyway, to address your arguments by paragraph:

 

 

1. Yes she means Luke Skywalker. Anyone who understands the basic concept of the Chosen One (a being purely born of the Force) will understand that unlocking the full potential of the Chosen One is going to make you ridiculously powerful - powerful enough to move black holes.
    
    
   
2. I'm guessing that was your attempt to 'rip her arguments apart with little effort' consider me unimpressed.
    
    
   
3. You are obviously lacking in knowledge on the battle meld, to quote Wookieepedia: "Obi-Wan Kenobi warned that Force Meld took a Master of great power and depth in the Force to create a single entity state without killing or destroying the minds of everyone involved." Being the nucleus of a battle meld is a considerable display of force power. Taking control of the minds of 17 Jedi (and that was before becoming Caedus) is incredibly impressive.
    
    
   
4. A talent known and usable by very few, I believe Darth Plagueis may be one of them. Our #4.
    
    
   
5. We are not assessing how useful the ability is in a combat situation. Nevertheless you couldn't be more wrong. Caedus used his incredible abilities in healing to endure having his armed lopped off and a hole punched through his abdomen, in both situations he kept fighting with seemingly no detriment to his ability. His healing abilities vastly outperform Revan's. Unprecedented is probably the word your looking for.
    
    
   
6. Again incorrect, this is not a hyperbole. To quote the New Essential Chronology he "briefly transformed into the most powerful manifestation of the Force on record." And Luke never achieved Oneness against Abeloth as far as I'm aware, but yes, good point, Luke managing to take on a GOD only reinforces him immense power and in relation, Caedus'.
    
    
   
7. Tutanimis is a basic ability learned by all Jedi, however it is how one uses it that is important. Only by being more powerful than your attacker can you use tutanimis against the full might of their Force attacks successively. - so obviously Revan didn't succeed - bear that in mind. Now remember Caedus deflected attacks from Luke Skywalker himself - reinforcing the fact he was close to the power of the Chosen One.
    
    
   
8. I'm guessing you are not aware that Vong are naturally resistant/immune to Force-based attacks. That said you are guilty of fabrication here, Vitiate hasn't reduced any Jedi to ash as far as we are aware.
    
    
   
9. So Revan is more powerful than Luke Skywalker now? Lol. No Force user as far as I'm aware has been able to cloak himself from view to the point of removing himself from the the Force itself. Also Revan was only able to sense the Force presence of those he had a connection with, which is by no means an ability exclusive to him.
    
    
   
10. That's as maybe, but all this is showing is that even in Vitiate's greatest dept. Caedus is making ground. Being able to shield your mind is one thing, being able to shield your mind from Luke Skywalker himself? That's incredible.
     
     
    
11. Because being able to easily master an extremely rare and complex ability is not impressive at all. Be careful how you go about dismissing esoteric abilities, they still bear weight.
     
     
    
12. But nowhere near to that extent, Revan and Scourge could meditate and see random visions of the future. But they were not able to predetermine which part of the future they could see. That level of accuracy is again unprecedented and incredibly impressive. Pretty much outclasses every Force user whoever used foresight.
     
     
    
13. We are not at liberty to speculate here. Especially given that these are entirely different spheres of Force ability. What we have here is an incredible display of absolute mastery over Force lightning.
     
     
    
14. Yet he has never demonstrated it on such a level. He was only able to project multiple versions of himself.
     
     
    
15. How about we don't imagine, and instead look at the facts at hand i.e. Caedus can sever people from the Force just as easily as the Sith Emperor can. Again gaining ground in his most potent abilities.
     
     
    
16. More fabricated evidence? Nyriss has never vaporized any Force users - only non-Force sensitives. Vitiate hasn't shown himself capable of this either. I'm nor sure where your getting these ideas from...
     
     
    
17. We are not aware of the circumstances concerning those Jedi that Malak choked i.e. how powerful they are, if they were weakened, etc. I can't imagine they were that powerful. Dooku has never Force choked Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously as far as I'm aware. And Ventress and Opress were only able to do so in a moment of Force rage, which bolstered their powers.
     
     
    
18. Lol this is a Force power, and this thread is about the Force users. Do the math. Also noting that Lumiya saw it as a sign of Sith Mastery - indicating that it was more down to power than innate ability.
     
     
    
19. Biological bodies are limited in the amount of Force power they can take, and if too much Force power is exerted their body will overload which could well resort in death. Caedus, being able to go above and beyond this, has displayed Force affinity on a higher level than the normal human body can take. To put this into perspective we can compare him with other human/near-human Force users - who being human have roughly the same overload point - e.g:
     
     
    
    • Galen Marek almost collapsed from exertion when attempting to manipulate the flight path of a Star Destroyer - Caedus would have been able to do that and then some.
       
       
      
    • Dorks 81 by having six other Jedi channel their Force power through him was able to push an entire fleet of Star Destroyers out of the star system in the most powerful display of the Force push in recorded history - however his body overloaded and he was killed. It is feasible to assume that Caedus could, without aid, perform a feat on a similar magnitude, though likely not on the same scale.
      

 

 

[*]Again this is not a question of how applicable one's abilities are in a battle situation here. What we have here is an incredibly display of Force speed on par with the juggernaughts of Star Wars mythos - Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious. That said I doubt the Sith Emperor would be fast enough to stop Caedus getting close to him. Lol the HoT got lucky - sure, sure he did. Guess the Emperor's arthritis was kicking in no?

 

 

[*]Oh wow, I find it interesting that you neglected to mention that 'Lord Nyax' was being greatly empowered by the Force nexus surrounding the Jedi Temple, which in turn hampered Luke and co's abilities, and was wearing a massive suit armed with eight lightsabers. Not exactly a compelling argument.

 

 

[*]The Sword of the Jedi isn't a powerhouse? What next, Darth Vader is a juggernaut? There is a reason why Jaina was chosen to go and fight Caedus over all others.

 

 

[*]Nothing special. You do realise that one set of words just made me disregard all your future arguments. Clearly you do not possess the necessary knowledge to have this kind of debate.

 

And concerning Luke Skywalker being 60% more powerful than Sidious, I figured you would be aware of the quotes, everyone else is, anyway to enlighten you:

 

"However, after all of his limbs were severed and he was extremely burned on Mustafar he lost much of his Force potential. As Darth Vader, Skywalker was believed to have had roughly 80% of the strength of the Emperor. Had he sustained none of his injuries on Mustafar he would have been twice as powerful."

 

And according to George Lucas, Luke Skywalker fulfilled that potential. Now of course we have to take into account that DE Sidious supposedly increased in power, but I highly doubt that he increased by more than 60% and to assume so is pure speculation, and rather baseless. Nothing DE Sidious has done knocks ROTJ-Sidious out of the park.

 

And yes, I am bringing up the GL trump card. Because G-Canon does apply to the EU. Allow me to correct your rather selective use of quotes regarding the canon system:

 

Lucas Licensing editor Sue Rostoni elaborated further on the place of printed Expanded Universe sources in Star Wars Gamer 6,

 

"Canon refers to an authoritative list of books that the Lucas Licensing editors consider an authentic part of the official Star Wars history. Our goal is to present a continuous and unified history of the Star Wars galaxy, insofar as that history does not conflict with, or undermine the meaning of Mr. Lucas's Star Wars saga of films and screenplays."

 

On August 4, 2004, when asked if the G and C-levels formed separate and independent canon, Leland Chee responded by stating that both were part of a single canon:

 

"There is one overall continuity."

 

What you are doing here is mistaking film only continuity and film + EU continuity:

 

This statement confirms the priority of the "current version of the films" over the original versions, as well as the existence of two separate continuities, the "film only" continuity maintained and followed by George Lucas himself, and the "film + EU" continuity that is used for licensed products.

 

George Lucas only concerns himself with Film only continuity, to which the EU is irrelevant. But this does not work both ways. There is no EU only continuity but film + EU continuity. And in that continuity G-Canon exists to ensure that the EU stays true to the films and George Lucas' vision. Therefore in terms of film + EU continuity yes G-Canon is applicable to everything. Please do not lecture us on topics you don't full understand.

[Beniboybling]

I have shared lot of information here about different facets of Star Wars; it is not my fault, if you are not checking out my responses. In this scenario, I would address what you pinpoint to me directly. Your conceptualization about certain aspects of the mythos is misplaced. I have went to great lengths to explain how GL perceives Star Wars and how his statements are to be interpreted accordingly, in my responses to several other members in different threads thus far. It becomes tiresome to repeat same thing over and over again. Still, I am willing to address your points with as much information as possible, should the need arise and you show interest.

Oh don't pretend to be the right here Legend, all you've done is insult Rayla's intelligence and arguments and I and she do not take kindly to that.

 

Anyway are we done here? Good. There seems to be a general consensus that Traya deserves #9.

[Beniboybling]

What is this then:

 

"Luke could not defeat Lord Nyax in a duel even though he was already touted as the most powerful Jedi in history during this time."

 

???

A fabricated quote? Perhaps you'd like to give us a reference for that? Edited July 26, 2013 by Beniboybling