Solo Queue Should Be Truly Solo...

[cycao]

the sports analogies are not accurate at all......

 

this is a video game with an obscenely low skill cap on all styles of play. once you learn the fundamentals, there really is not much more to learn.

 

the problem with this game is that most people still dont understand the fundamentals.

 

 

sports have incredibly high skill caps.

 

Yeah I have never liked analogies of any kinds when trying to compare real life scenarios with a video game.

[Zunayson]

the problem with this game is that most people still dont understand the fundamentals.

 

and that is analogous to sports high skillcap. Regardless, you still have people who are better. The trash players don't know the basic fundamentals and I can't help them. I do well enough on my vigi guard in huttball even with a mediocre team, so long as we're not up against a team that is any better. But every once in awhile I get some real terribads.

 

Some real terribads. So low that you want to kick them because its so much more likely that the backfill will be better.

 

This response is the worst kind of tripe..

 

Perhaps its on the other foot, and you don't have the skills or ability to stand on your own and need a full team and voice comms to beat up people that don't? But im sure that never occurred to you.

 

preamdes in pug WZs is a joke, it doesn't belong... whether or not the other person has the means to put together a full team or not isn't the issue.. the issue is why don't you take your team to rateds rather than beating up those that have no chance from the start?

 

Coming from someone who plays FPS games and outperform average baddies by 100%, I win most of my games (70%?), because it is a very lone wolf style of game. Even if I don't win, and my team is smashed, I make a way for myself and I have fun being the best on my team, and I, individually, am not farmed.

 

In TOR, regardless if I'm the best in the match (which I'm not because I'm horrid at this game), the best team wins, and the best team usually farms if it's that substantial, absolutely regardless of any non stealther's individual ability. The only premades I've been in we either A. don't have voice chat; or B. find little reason to use it; because we're unable to carry the entire team. We just yell out in ops. I premade to get players I trust to do things not so I can talk.

 

TL;DR competitive people like winning, and they don't like losing because of a bad, luck-based team. So, they'll bring other people with them because they think they deserve to win because they think they are better. And usually they are in my experience

Edited July 15, 2013 by Zunayson

[Doomsdaycomes]

This response is the worst kind of tripe..

 

Perhaps its on the other foot, and you don't have the skills or ability to stand on your own and need a full team and voice comms to beat up people that don't? But im sure that never occurred to you.

 

preamdes in pug WZs is a joke, it doesn't belong... whether or not the other person has the means to put together a full team or not isn't the issue.. the issue is why don't you take your team to rateds rather than beating up those that have no chance from the start?

 

Couple problems:

 

The mano e' mano or however its spelled is usually the last resort of people who know their out matched and try to bruise the other person's ego for lack of better insults. This is a team game, no one should be "standing on their own." If they are, the other 7 people on their team are doing something wrong.

 

Second, there is no PuG wz. There is Regular warzones, for 1-4 players. If a highly competitive group of 4 players wants to play, they can't just go play ranked. Ranked need 8 players to play. So they go into the general population like the rest of us. They have every right to be there, and if their opponents have no chance it's really not their fault. They control their ability, the opponents control theirs.

 

Finally, the issues comes down to the system not separating those of high competitiveness, experience, skill, etc... from those who do not. There is a general mish-mash of skill, gear, experience, attitude, in the regular queue right now, and the pecking order puts the casual, mid-level PuG on the bottom where they get smashed and don't like it (understandable). Until Bioware puts in some kind of skill based matchmaking, this will continue and it's really no one's damn fault but the System.

[Aelaias]

You people who fail to comprehend the simplest of arguments need to keep your terrible opinions to yourself.

 

"Pug farming" wouldn't be a thing if some PUGs weren't so bad. If you put the best sports team in whatever sport you like the most up against 8 random people you just found, they will destroy them. The argument being made is that if you take the best sports team and put them up against the worst sports team, the same result will follow. Ergo, the group isn't the problem, the level of skill is.

A pug has a chance against a 4-man if it has a sectacular healer and a tank and if the rest of opponent team is not spectacular players while your team is. It happens but very rarely. I have been on many teams with above average players gettung absolutely destroyed by teams including 4-men. You insecure pug farmers ar BSing, admit that you are too tiny for fair fights.

[Doomsdaycomes]

A pug has a chance against a 4-man if it has a sectacular healer and a tank and if the rest of opponent team is not spectacular players while your team is. It happens but very rarely. I have been on many teams with above average players gettung absolutely destroyed by teams including 4-men. You insecure pug farmers ar BSing, admit that you are too tiny for fair fights.

 

And you are a whining, crying, poor excuse for a player who can't be bothered to learn what team work is, how to have friends, or what the /invite command does.

 

See what I did there? We can hurl insults back and forth all day long and go no where. It's no one's fault but the system that Competitive teams face casual teams.

[Zunayson]

A pug has a chance against a 4-man if it has a sectacular healer and a tank and if the rest of opponent team is not spectacular players while your team is. It happens but very rarely. I have been on many teams with above average players gettung absolutely destroyed by teams including 4-men. You insecure pug farmers ar BSing, admit that you are too tiny for fair fights.

 

Sooo you've been on many teams where above average players are destroyed by other teams?

 

The better team wins, it's simple

 

Let's take it your way. I imagine being able to destroy the other team probably means they had 3-4 smasher smashing at the same place at the same time. Now tell me, with the ability to mark other players, and how obvious the charge/crush/shash and its mirror animations are, why a pug cannot do it? It's not because of voicechat, it's because the average casual, non-competitive pug player simply is not good enough. I've been on teams where the pugs are amazing, and focus fire is second nature to them.

 

It is because they are good, good enough to do basic motor functions and to outperform others in a completely skilless, statistically-based environment.

[cashogy_reborn]

and that is analogous to sports high skillcap.

 

no, not at all.

 

you can spend a few hours and gain the same level of understanding that the best players have. its all written here on the glorious internet; most people are just too lazy to look for it.

 

 

you spend a few hour at the batting cages and i can guarantee you that you wont be better than a high school baseball player, let alone a professional.

 

pro sports =/= video games. at all.

[Kawiki]

It is because they are good, good enough to do basic motor functions and to outperform others in a completely skilless, statistically-based environment.

 

How can you outperform someone in a "completly skilless, statistically-based environment"?

[Zunayson]

How can you outperform someone in a "completly skilless, statistically-based environment"?

 

recruit mk-1 vs aug'timized war hero

 

No amount of your personal ability can prevent me from beating you if I'm in the war hero and you're in the recruit. My DPS is too high and yours is too low. Note I said "outperform," not "outskill" or "be better than," because quite frankly skill doesn't matter.

 

I rest my case

 

you can spend a few hours and gain the same level of understanding that the best players have. its all written here on the glorious internet; most people are just too lazy to look for it.

 

You said yourself that lazies are too lazy to look on the glorious interwebz, which is why they suck. If I spend an hour in the cage, I still suck. Some people are better than lazy baddies and some people are better than me in the cage.

 

While you're right they're totally different, you're still left in a position where there are people that completely outperform others, not necessarily on the basis of personal skill (whatever that means), but because they've put in time and effort into practicing.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Zunayson

[Doomsdaycomes]

no, not at all.

 

you can spend a few hours and gain the same level of understanding that the best players have. its all written here on the glorious internet; most people are just too lazy to look for it.

 

 

you spend a few hour at the batting cages and i can guarantee you that you wont be better than a high school baseball player, let alone a professional.

 

pro sports =/= video games. at all.

 

I have to agree here. Someone in another forum brought up an example of average Joe vs. Mike Tyson in boxing.

 

The difference between average Joe and Mike Tyson is decades of body building, training, experience, etc... It's a poor comparison, because the difference between a fully geared, experienced gamer and an average one is literally a couple of weeks. 1-2 Months -maybe.-

[Kawiki]

no, not at all.

 

you can spend a few hours and gain the same level of understanding that the best players have. its all written here on the glorious internet; most people are just too lazy to look for it.

 

 

you spend a few hour at the batting cages and i can guarantee you that you wont be better than a high school baseball player, let alone a professional.

 

pro sports =/= video games. at all.

 

Mostly true. But the dynamics of team competition and skill ranges are the same of both groups. You have the same basic skill ranges in a video game as those players that play baseball.

[Pistols]

#wereupallnighttogetlucky

[Kawiki]

recruit mk-1 vs aug'timized war hero

 

No amount of your personal ability can prevent me from beating you if I'm in the war hero and you're in the recruit. My DPS is too high and yours is too low. Note I said "outperform," not "outskill" or "be better than," because quite frankly skill doesn't matter.

 

I rest my case

 

 

 

Ok soooo, if two equally geared players meet it will always end in a tie. Got it.

[Zunayson]

I have to agree here. Someone in another forum brought up an example of average Joe vs. Mike Tyson in boxing.

 

The difference between average Joe and Mike Tyson is decades of body building, training, experience, etc... It's a poor comparison, because the difference between a fully geared, experienced gamer and an average one is literally a couple of weeks. 1-2 Months -maybe.-

 

It's understandable that the time difference is there, but the point is you still have someone who is well versed and has trained vs someone who hasn't. Do you think Mike Tyson is some special person to've gotten that strong? Or did he just IRL grind muscles for a long time? If it's the former, I would consider him "good," "skilled," "gifted," or whatever. If it's the latter, then it's analogous to a gear advantage, if all he did was time sink (Read: There is nothing special, he just did a grind for longer. I said analogous. Not synonymous.

 

Then you have games like shooter games, where the well versed player is better not because he's put in the time that gives him a statistical advantage (Gear for MMOs, muscular strength for boxing), but actual learned advantages. I guess you could indeed argue that if all he did was put in the time to learn maps, strategies, weapons, his mouse sensitivity, etc. and is not "special" in any way, then it is the same as a gear advantage.

 

TL;DR I guess everything in one way or another has its performance based something in the lines of training or practice that's difficult to measure as "skill." It's non-objective, yet still apparent, that MMOs take very little skill, which is why gear, RNG, and the likes have made it into what it is

 

Ok soooo, if two equally geared players meet it will always end in a tie. Got it.

 

If two equally skilled (same optimized rotation), geared (same optimized gear), players were to deathmatch, everything in an ideal environment would be the same. However MMOs have introduced RNG, crits, defense chance, etc. into the game to ensure what you said does not happen.

 

Fact is, heads I win tails you lose is NOT competitive at all. That is why I think luck is the bane of these competitive games. That is why I believe recoil should not be in shooter games. That is why I play Halo and not call of duty. that is why I don't play carnage a lot, even though it is SO. AWESOME.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Zunayson

[Kawiki]

I have to agree here. Someone in another forum brought up an example of average Joe vs. Mike Tyson in boxing.

 

The difference between average Joe and Mike Tyson is decades of body building, training, experience, etc... It's a poor comparison, because the difference between a fully geared, experienced gamer and an average one is literally a couple of weeks. 1-2 Months -maybe.-

 

The average Joe v. Mike Tyson (I assume in his prime) is a bad one. But the poor fighter v. Mike Tyson is the example they should of used. Though, ironically both the average Joe and poor fighter would last about the same amount of time.

[Zunayson]

The average Joe v. Mike Tyson (I assume in his prime) is a bad one. But the poor fighter v. Mike Tyson is the example they should of used. Though, ironically both the average Joe and poor fighter would last about the same amount of time.

 

As a person I'm amazing at programming.

 

As a programmer I'm bad at programming.

[Kawiki]

As a person I'm amazing at programming.

 

As a programmer I'm bad at programming.

 

Exactly.

[TridusSWTOR]

If only there was another kind of WZ, where premade lovers could queue up and fight against peers...

 

Don't worry you'll still hear excuses on why a premade only queue is bad ,mostly due to lack of wanting to face a competitive team every time they join a PVP match.

 

Even to this day, they can't explain how matchmaking would help a low population server. Since there won't be a big enough pool of player skill to choose from.

 

"At least you'll get a match." - What they leave out is, you'll get a match but it'll be a lopsided match...kinda puts us back at the drawing board. But hey, at least they still come out ahead, right?

 

People like doom and whomever else, just can't actually provide answers to certain scenarios instead they goal-post to hell and back in order to avoid any questions that debunks them.

[TridusSWTOR]

List them please.

 

What advantages besides Voice-chat does a Premade have that a PuG can not?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not agreeing with iDaxter that all (or most) PuG's are bad. I just get really tired of people proclaiming premades have some mythical advantages a PuG can not have.

 

Disclaimer: I think matchmaking is needed to separate people according to ability.

 

Group comp.

 

You have been debunked.

[Jadescythe]

Don't worry you'll still hear excuses on why a premade only queue is bad ,mostly due to lack of wanting to face a competitive team every time they join a PVP match.

 

Even to this day, they can't explain how matchmaking would help a low population server. Since there won't be a big enough pool of player skill to choose from.

 

"At least you'll get a match." - What they leave out is, you'll get a match but it'll be a lopsided match...kinda puts us back at the drawing board. But hey, at least they still come out ahead, right?

 

People like doom and whomever else, just can't actually provide answers to certain scenarios instead they goal-post to hell and back in order to avoid any questions that debunks them.

 

You clearly don't want to PvP because you are against queues actually popping. If you can't understand that people are queuing to fight other people, not to see the light blink at them, then we can't help you.

 

You have never made a point that hasn't had extreme pitfalls in the current environment. For instance, what will stop a 4 man from queue syncing on a low pop server? If the population is as low as you are talking about, then nothing has changed from your solo queue either. As you so eloquently put it, DEBUNKED!

[Pistols]

#wereupallnighttogetlucky

[cycao]

Don't worry you'll still hear excuses on why a premade only queue is bad ,mostly due to lack of wanting to face a competitive team every time they join a PVP match.

 

Even to this day, they can't explain how matchmaking would help a low population server. Since there won't be a big enough pool of player skill to choose from.

 

"At least you'll get a match." - What they leave out is, you'll get a match but it'll be a lopsided match...kinda puts us back at the drawing board. But hey, at least they still come out ahead, right?

 

People like doom and whomever else, just can't actually provide answers to certain scenarios instead they goal-post to hell and back in order to avoid any questions that debunks them.

 

How many servers actually suffer a low population now? And if they did you can transfer off to a higher population and if you like PvP there are two high pop servers to which you can go.

 

I have never been against splitting the queues up, I think taking groups of 2/3/4 into account would take longer to assemble a team of 8 but I cant imagine they would be like queues before the first forced transfers.

 

Matchmaking is a more logical situation. Even with a split queue you will still be facing off against more experienced/geared players and I imagine a pure solo vs solo would be like 10-54 all over again which is everyman for themselves with little to no objective play and I find that more frustrating than facing a premade.

 

In reality in regards to what they do there is still going to be a clique of players who are not happy.

[TridusSWTOR]

You clearly don't want to PvP because you are against queues actually popping. If you can't understand that people are queuing to fight other people, not to see the light blink at them, then we can't help you.

 

You have never made a point that hasn't had extreme pitfalls in the current environment. For instance, what will stop a 4 man from queue syncing on a low pop server? If the population is as low as you are talking about, then nothing has changed from your solo queue either. As you so eloquently put it, DEBUNKED!

 

How am I against PVP when I want more balanced matches than you? You only offered a broken system that will provide lopsided matches. You offer nothing else.

 

Matchmaking would work on high population servers(which is what, two right now?) but split queue's would work then as well.

 

You can look on this thread alone, people are tired of being paired with the "bad" solo pugs. A separate queue would fix this, but oh, you still need the ability to have lopsided matches when things aren't going your way.

 

Little news flash on matchmaking, if you don't think people can cheat the system, you haven't been playing multiplayer that long.

 

So where was the debunk again? Oh right, there wasn't.

 

You have been debunked. How many times was this now?

 

*Glad you support lopsided matches still*

[cashogy_reborn]

#wereupallnighttogetlucky

 

#wereupallnighttogetsome

[Zunayson]

Group comp.

 

You have been debunked.

 

That's like saying the premades are better, or have better gear. Statistical advantages mean nothing, because this game is essentially nothing but statistics. Getting lucky and critical hitting? Not an advantage.

 

Group comp, gear, spec'ing, etc. are all considered part of the "skill" in an mmo (not agreeing with that philosophy here, but it's true), and therefore cannot be submitted as a complaint for being unfair, else any competition with a clear winner or loser is "unfair" because one is better.