So What *Are* We Going To Ask? July

[KeyboardNinja]

+1 most certainly. Balance is in need of some big changes to appease the players but overall BOTH trees need a way to compete with the other damage classes. If balance gets fixed and then is in the top contenders and infiltration stays exactly where it is i might quit this game.

 

My opinions on this have been modified significantly in recent days. Specifically, I found an Infiltration Shadow who dummy parsed a 2500 (300s with the tail cropped)… with commendation Black Market gear and a *66 MH and OH*. We're going to gear him to see what he can do with real stats, but that is essentially the definition of parsing above your gear level. It's certainly much higher output than I thought possible anywhere shy of min-maxed 72s.

[thejollygreenone]

My opinions on this have been modified significantly in recent days. Specifically, I found an Infiltration Shadow who dummy parsed a 2500 (300s with the tail cropped)… with commendation Black Market gear and a *66 MH and OH*. We're going to gear him to see what he can do with real stats, but that is essentially the definition of parsing above your gear level. It's certainly much higher output than I thought possible anywhere shy of min-maxed 72s.

 

you have certainly found a skilled player but heed the high number no mind, with enough luck with crits infiltration can find a way to sustain that sort of dps. if you get him min maxed in 72s he will certainly have potential but getting that lucky again is a stretch in my opinion. and even then that's no reason to say that infiltration can be completely unchanged.

Edited July 17, 2013 by thejollygreenone

[oaceen]

I like that idea. It doesn't take anything away from the other trees, and gives Focus a decent ability for the rotation.

 

But, this thread is for Questions, not suggestions those should flow out of the answers we get.

 

i thought that i saw some suggestions, but maybe i was blurring this thread together with another.

[DarthSpekulatius]

I realize that balance needs a major fix but please remember there are two DPS trees and infiltration still lags behind balance in PVE so I'd really like to see both DPS trees addressed. Saying infiltration doesn't need a fix because it's decent in PVP is no different from saying PVE tanks don't need a fix because they're good node guards.

 

infiltration for PVE is quite useful there are many fights where a Bursty (especially a on demmand Bursty) Damage profile has an advantage.

if we get balance to work as our Sustained dps build then the only thing we need is dual spec.

any outright buffs to infi would... lead to "a negative reaction" from PVPers lets say.

Edited July 18, 2013 by DarthSpekulatius

[Damastes]

I realize that balance needs a major fix but please remember there are two DPS trees and infiltration still lags behind balance in PVE so I'd really like to see both DPS trees addressed. Saying infiltration doesn't need a fix because it's decent in PVP is no different from saying PVE tanks don't need a fix because they're good node guards.

 

I agree with the above, for the most part.

 

I've been trying to stay away from saying stuff like "this spec needs it more," as I believe both specs need help, and I'd rather we not fight among ourselves over who needs it more. Since more people seem to be interested in boosting Balance than Infiltration, I thought I'd lend another voice for "look at them both." In PVE, Balance is on par with Infiltration in sustained damage on a single target, our only option for AOE, and superior DPS whenever we need to leave the boss for a time. Infiltration has superior burst. I've also had better luck with single-target damage on a boss below 30% health with Infiltration, but that could be because I'm not an expert with Balance and I had better luck with crits on Infiltration.

 

I don't think it's likely that they want to erase the differences between our specs, so I don't think it's likely Infiltration will suddenly be allowed to have AOE potential even on par with Balance, or that Balance will ever get Infiltration's burst potential. And frankly, however much I complain that I have to go Balance for many boss fights just to increase my overall DPS, I'm actually fine with keeping the specs distinct--as long as we can find ways to boost the damage for both specs.

 

For Infiltration, that likely means finding a way to boost our burst without making us a target for nerfs in PVP, and one way to do that might be to attach something--maybe even a raid boost, perish the thought--to Shadow's Respite and the Masked Assault talent that doesn't work against players. But that's a topic for another thread.

 

KBN, that parse doesn't surprise me, as excellent as it is, and it probably won't surprise anyone who's done a lot of Infiltration parses. Now, if you find he averages 2500 with that gear, please come back and tell us his stats and priority list

[PerKIA]

I Dont play my Deception assassin in operations any longer.. Ive changed to my mercenary, thougt i give that i try.

Reason for that is simple, Assassin dps is some 300dps short, and it matters.

Im pretty useless taking out trash with AOE, no boost of any kind for the group, no self heal, trying to cc a mob i risk beeing detected and cant i cant use in while in combat. That combined with having the lowest dps of all AC i see no reason whatsover to play an assassin dps (except for the "fun" factor).

 

The greatest problem for the assassin dps is the dps output in endgame content. Torparse has a top 50 chart for all AC. Assassin dps are consistenly at the last spot there. some of the boss fights were upp there but most of the fights we are clearly behind. worst example Kephess HM/NiM Assassin = 3875 dps/ Marauder = 5108dps. That is extreme.

And...its not top 50 for assassin dps, since there only 40 or so uploads for assassin dps!!! that in itself should give you a hint on were ithe assassin dps is heading in PvE

[Berjiz]

I Dont play my Deception assassin in operations any longer.. Ive changed to my mercenary, thougt i give that i try.

Reason for that is simple, Assassin dps is some 300dps short, and it matters.

Im pretty useless taking out trash with AOE, no boost of any kind for the group, no self heal, trying to cc a mob i risk beeing detected and cant i cant use in while in combat. That combined with having the lowest dps of all AC i see no reason whatsover to play an assassin dps (except for the "fun" factor).

 

The greatest problem for the assassin dps is the dps output in endgame content. Torparse has a top 50 chart for all AC. Assassin dps are consistenly at the last spot there. some of the boss fights were upp there but most of the fights we are clearly behind. worst example Kephess HM/NiM Assassin = 3875 dps/ Marauder = 5108dps. That is extreme.

And...its not top 50 for assassin dps, since there only 40 or so uploads for assassin dps!!! that in itself should give you a hint on were ithe assassin dps is heading in PvE

 

It might be biased a bit though since there are so few assain dps nowdays. It's rare to seem more than one sin dps in every third or so op while their usually are 2+ maurders.

[Leafy_Bug]

It might be biased a bit though since there are so few assain dps nowdays. It's rare to seem more than one sin dps in every third or so op while their usually are 2+ maurders.

 

 

All I can say is that when we pugged one time a DPS for TFB HM, a shadow joined my group. 5 guys said 'lol, you gonna DPS with that?' This is how people treat the shadow. They are being laughed at as tanks, laughed at due to the low damage output.

[KeyboardNinja]

KBN, that parse doesn't surprise me, as excellent as it is, and it probably won't surprise anyone who's done a lot of Infiltration parses. Now, if you find he averages 2500 with that gear, please come back and tell us his stats and priority list

 

Well, I was going to come back and say that he does it consistently, because all of his parses in that combat log were in that range, and none of them had an inordinate number of crits. However, we discovered much to our astonishment that he was parsing on the level 10 dummy, which was a possibility that hadn't even entered into our minds. ("Combat Training Dummy" vs "Operations Training Dummy") Considering that my sentinel can parse over a 3.3k on the level 10 dummy, the numbers are obviously skewed. If you adjust downward, he would probably parse a 2150-2200 on the actual Op dummy, which is much more in line with what I would expect. He's going to get a bit of a talking to…

 

We do have another Infil shadow in-guild who consistently parses over 2500, but he has a 72 MH/OH and mostly 72 mods/enhs, so that's a lot less impressive.

Edited July 18, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[kwestone]

All I can say is that when we pugged one time a DPS for TFB HM, a shadow joined my group. 5 guys said 'lol, you gonna DPS with that?' This is how people treat the shadow. They are being laughed at as tanks, laughed at due to the low damage output.

 

I would laugh if it didnt hurt so much. It is true.

[Vaerah]

I mostly play PvP so here are my questions and they are about infiltration.

 

1) Are there any plans to make infiltration shadows wanted in ranked WZs? Most of our perks (CC, burst etc) simply water down against competent players, making us a "counterable, disposable" class. Other classes / specs stack nicely and consistently as well, our does not stack at all beyond timing a double stealth opener on the same guy.

 

2) Most games provide stealthy melee DPS with high armor penetration talents. While we fare quite well vs static healers, we lag well behind at doing our very job: killing ranged DPS. Unique among the games, SWTOR comes with some high armored RDPS and our low armor penetration makes them very hard to kill: they have kiting abilities, CC, high DPS but also high armor so even staying on them is not enough. Other classes don't have this issue, right yesterday I have seen a guy easily carving huge chunks of health off the RDPS I was hitting for 2k (1200 with CS), I felt ashamed of tickling the guy that was being devastated by another player with ease.

 

If we'd get better armor penetration that would also positively reflect on PvE performance, where we lack in a sensible way.

 

3) Balance spec: I am a too new player to have seen the past balance spec glory, but I can easily grasp how broken the current balance spec is: in thousands of WZs and a number of PvE ops, I have never, never, never met a single shadow or assassin being balance specced. That should talk beyond words.

 

4) I know I should just tell 3 things but I can't join my voice to the PvE tanking concerns. Taken as offtank (I don't have the "presumption" to ask a shadow to be a main tank) some unpredictable times I get basically 2 shot by the same boss "pets / friends etc" that do way much predictably on other tanks. This makes healers recluctant to heal me as sooner or later (when I am out of cooldowns) it's just bound to fail and that's it.

Edited July 21, 2013 by Vaerah

[Kitru]

As an update to the question situation, since we still have 6 weeks until we get to ask our question and there is a major patch and some potential minor patches on the way, I'm holding off on solidifying the questions until such time as we see what they're going to do with things. Xinika is doing the same. We're essentially playing a waiting game because a *lot* can change in the next 6+ weeks before we have to actually set our questions in stone, especially since a number of these concerns have well been drilled into the devs' brains.

 

As such, I'm going to have 2 questions for the each, with the first being the "primary" question that will revert to the second if that concern is addressed before we can ask, based upon what is considered important, previously addressed and simply be exaggerated upon, and/or liable to be fixed. I.e. the Resilience bug is the secondary concern for the wild card because it's been addressed by the devs so it's simply asking for elaboration upon a subject that the devs have already confirmed; the Shadow tank issue is a primary because it's a major concern that the developers have really said nothing about so getting them to actually state something would be useful.

 

If someone wants to suggest alterations for a question, feel free to do so. I plan on putting together a number of threads and posts for each question specifically pointing the devs to the player discussions/suggestions that they might not have had the time to look over themselves or the community team managed to not get to so that they have reference points for the player discussion(s).

 

PvE:

 

Primary:

You've already said that you are looking into Shadow tank spikiness. Given that, what methods are you using and have you seen any of the methodologies provided by the players? If you *have* seen the player methods, are you using them, what do you think of them, and have they convinced you that theorycrafters are a valuable resource that should be tapped rather than ignored? Will you actually being looking into spikiness as a real, quantifiable variable when balancing tanks or continue to only factor it in in a vague heuristic sense? Assuming you've agreed with every piece of analysis and the massive amount of evidence that the player base has put together, can you elaborate upon what solutions you have in the pipeline, whether we can expect a timeline on those fixes, and whether you actually looked into any of the innumerable suggestions made by the players when coming up with solutions?

 

Secondary:

Shadow DPS lags behind the other DPS specs not because it is necessarily difficult to play but because it is notoriously unforgiving in the precision required to play it effectively. Infiltration can have Shadow Technique put on the 4.5 sec ICD by activating Force Breach without getting a Breaching Shadows stack, which means that you have to watch your natural Breaching Shadows stack generation and time your use of Force Breach while it is on ICD in order to avoid losing DPS. Balance requires 3 DoTs be reapplied with *absolute* precision or else lose substantial amounts of DPS thanks to DoT clipping or downtime, which is a unique state since no other spec out there has so many DoTs that have to be continually maintained manually. Is there any plan to fix these issues, specfically by fixing or addressing the two previously mentioned concerns, and, if so, what is it and have you looked into any of the number of potential solutions that the players on the forums have suggested time and time again?

 

PvP:

 

Primary:

One of the most useful things about Balance Shadows in PvP was the level of utility provided since, as a DoT spec, their ability to actually influence kills or provide more than a slight annoyance was negligible thanks to the wind up time for the spec to deal damage effectively and weakness to cleansing thanks to said reliance to their DoTs. In 2.0, with the change to Containment as well as the removal of Infiltration Tactics from Balance, Balance lost half of their burst DPS as well as a significant amount of utility thanks to having to cast Force Lift rather than being able to use it on the move or as an emergency cast. Were you aware of what this would do to the spec when you made the changes and are there any plans to address the effective worthlessness of Balance in PvP thanks to these changes to the build that came with 2.0? If so, what are they and can we expect them any time soon?

 

Secondary:

Given the current metagame of PvP, the only truly effective role that Balance and KC Shadows can fulfill is node guarding while Infiltration is only useful for taking out lone individuals with burst damage from stealth such that, if the Shadow is discovered and pulled out of stealth first, such as is easily possibly with a Gunslinger or Trooper, or the target is not dead immediately, it stands no real chance. Essentially, Shadows have become one trick ponies with roles that are fulfilled just as effectively, if not better, by other ACs. Was it *intended* for Shadows to have heavily restricted and specific functionality within PvP, and, if not, is there any plan to address this concern by providing Shadows with some other useful PvP functionality?

 

Wild Card:

Primary:

Phase Walk is the absolutely worst implemented Word of Recall-type ability ever conceived. It requires a cast time to place, only remains for 2 minutes, is consumed and places the entire ability on CD for 45 seconds when it *is* used, has a delay upon activation, and, on top of all of that, was given to a melee AC which means that it is *only* useful as a preventative, time restricted escape tool that is less effective and more situational than a preexisting ability (Force Cloak). The only current real use for Phase Walk is in placing Shadow's Shelter on a Shadow tank and, because of the time and location limitations of the ability, is, even then, of almost negligible value. As such, Phase Walk is an effectively useless gimmick that is only discussed as useful thanks to a talent that completely bypasses the intended use of the power. When the power was being discussed, you commented upon the previously though ingenious manner of implementation that has ended up being a horrible failure in actual application as well as the desire to see the "creative" methods in which it would be applied, none of which are even remotely useful or applicable. Considering all of this, is there any plan to revamp or replace Phase Walk so that it will actually *be* useful to Shadows?

 

Secondary:

You have already stated that you have discovered the reason for the "Resilience bug". Since it is not an explicit flaw with Resilience and is instead a problem with the backend code that only affects Resilience and Blade Turning, will it be fixed any time soon and, if not, can we at least expect some temporary solution between now and when it is fixed, such as having it provide 100% F/T resistance for the duration in addition to the resist chance such that, at the very least, it provides immunity to the damage portions of abilities that succeed at the 5% chance?

Edited August 5, 2013 by Kitru

[DaftVaduhhh]

Just found this through another thread and it turns out you were bumping it at the same time. Forum Mods, why isn't this stickied?

 

Good work so far Kitru and while you and I disagree on how to rebalance from a talent/ability perspective, I certainly agree on the fundamental mechanics you raise here.

 

Also, I've come up with a few more design thoughts regarding increasing single target burst for Balance (for both ACs), which thread is your preferred discussion point on the matter?

[Kitru]

Also, I've come up with a few more design thoughts regarding increasing single target burst for Balance (for both ACs), which thread is your preferred discussion point on the matter?

 

This thread is for discussing the questions themselves. If it's relevant to changing the question rather than simply discussing possible solutions, I would post it here. Since you seem to be suggesting that you're discussing potential actions rather than changing the question to account for new information/opinions/etc, it would be most apt to post it in the other thread.

[Kitru]

Forum Mods, why isn't this stickied?

 

The only ones they've stickied are the threads for the ACs that actually get to ask their questions this week.

[DaftVaduhhh]

The only ones they've stickied are the threads for the ACs that actually get to ask their questions this week.

Seems counter-intuitive to getting the best possible argument, but ok.

[reqnifoni]

Just wondering if we are better off asking about lack of dps instead of spiky tanking since spikiness has already been acknowledged by a dev response.

[Altheran]

For PvP, I would revert primary and secondary questions, because the secondary question cover more specs if not the AC as a whole, and the issue highlighted for KC and Balance is, in the case of Balance, a direct concequence of the issue highlighted in the primary question.

[Kitru]

For PvP, I would revert primary and secondary questions, because the secondary question cover more specs if not the AC as a whole, and the issue highlighted for KC and Balance is, in the case of Balance, a direct concequence of the issue highlighted in the primary question.

 

I put the Balance question as the primary PvP question because the DPS question is secondary in the PvE section. If tank spikiness gets taken care of before we get to ask our questions, the Balance/Infiltration precision question will get pushed to front and, at that point, there's less need to ask about Balance's general worthlessness in PvP specifically since improving Balance performance in PvE would pretty much require improving its performance in PvP.

 

It's one of the reasons why I'm *really* pissed we only get three questions and that 2 of them are supposed to be *explicitly* associated with one aspect of the game or another. As Shadows, I'd love to be able to ask about tank spikiness *in general* (since it's problematic in PvP too, from what I've been told) and Balance/Infiltration DPS *in general*, but the fact that they have to be specific to one state of the game or the other severely restricts how and what we're able to ask. On top of that, we've got a whole *slew* of pressing issues that really need to be addressed: tank spikiness, Balance's uselessness in PvP, Infiltration and Balances performance in PvE from a level of required precision for effective play *and* simple top end performance, the Resilience bug, and Phase Walk.

 

Shadows are, at the moment, in the worst state of all of the ACs, which means we've got a crapton of questions. We're probably the only AC that *already* has a full list for both of our question weeks ready and able to be asked, addressing not just specific issues but holistic concerns with abilities and specs, with discussion threads relevant to *all of them* that have been around for plenty long enough for the developers to actually have seen them. And, of course, because of this, we get to ask our questions last, likely because, while *we're* ready to ask our questions, the developers don't actually know Shadows well enough to *answer* our questions.

 

I find it highly suspect that the developers have (had to) state that they're aware and looking into 2 of our major concerns without responding to them further and yet we were given the last opportunity to ask said questions (since I'm pretty sure that it was the Shadow community that damned well pushed them to implement the Class Rep system in the first place). I'd be highly curious as to how they explain the question order, though I doubt they'd be willing to tell the truth if it *were* what I've suspected: that the devs don't know certain classes and, as such, are buying themselves time to learn about them before they're required to answer questions that they, in all likelihood, are unprepared for.

[Altheran]

Okay, that's a valid strategy.

[Kitru]

Okay, that's a valid strategy.

 

I've got an honorable mention question concerning Infiltration/Balance AoE being so deplorable. I'd have liked to fold it into one of the other DPS questions, but it felt too disconnected from the general statement.

[DaftVaduhhh]

If you want you could incorporate it into the PvP question by simply asking what BW's fundamental goals are for the Shadow class and play style, given as DPS they are the 2nd weakest class in the game in terms of consistent damage mitigation and yet do not see enough damage pressure to compensate for having to go into melee range in a skirmish.

 

From there you could work in that this is especially so for Balance, but mention that AoE pressure should be a concern for both specs despite Infil's single target burst.

Edited August 4, 2013 by DaftVaduhhh

[Hockaday]

I like your questions Kitru. Would hit the thanks button if there is one. Glad I'm not the only one who really dislikes phasewalk.

[Kitru]

If you want you could incorporate it into the PvP question by simply asking what BW's fundamental goals are for the Shadow class and play style, given as DPS they are the 2nd weakest class in the game in terms of consistent damage mitigation and yet do not see enough damage pressure to compensate for having to go into melee range in a skirmish.

 

From there you could work in that this is especially so for Balance, but mention that AoE pressure should be a concern for both specs despite Infil's single target burst.

 

Bringing up the survivability and AoE concerns as part of the more general PvP question asking about Balance's performance or the intended role of Shadows in PvP would broaden the question a bit too much and likely end up not getting answered. If we had had an infinite number of questions, I'd really like to actually be able to ask questions about the two concerns separately, so that the developers recognize that they are independent problems that both really need to be addressed for both PvP and PvE.

[Altheran]

Glad I'm not the only one who really dislikes phasewalk.

 

I think there are only few people who really like it. And when I say "really like" I mean liking both aspect : looks/main idea and mechanics.

 

As for myself, I don't like like both aspects.