We Need Clarification

[Superman_AZ]

People with money and little time to play the game should have the same opportunities to access and enjoy content as those with little money and lots of time to play.

 

And how someone else enjoys their game should have no impact on how you play your own game.

It's all about the snowflakeness. Someone who has 60 hours a week to spend playing a computer game wants to have a virtual carrot that rewards them for doing so that only other people who have 60 hours a week have.

 

Ultimately, it is about options. Everyone deserves a chance to experience the game regardless of their wallet or calendar. The fact that the game now focuses more on cash is only a testament to the lack of players who are willing to financially support the game. Casuals, like myself, throw money at the game simply because it is just a game, and not a career. Were it not for random casuals throwing money at things, most hospitals, charity foundations, and corporations would likely still have little or nothing without generous donations. People should stop biting the hand that feeds them and start biting the makers of the food.

[Helig]

People could solo The False Emperor & Hard Mode Maelstrom Prison at 50!?

 

Im a smart guy but im sure I couldn't do that on my Sentinel.

In FE, you just need to get past the HK boss. Maelstrom was soloed by a tankasin pre-55. Granted, tankasins are one of the strongest classes to solo HMs with. But with the 55 level cap and gear improvements, I'm fairly sure it's perfectly doable with a Sent. Out of curiosity, did a few 50 HMs on a lolsmash-specced 55 Marauder, augmented Partisan+Conquerer gear + augmented Quinn in Basic+Elite gear. Needed a little micromanagement to control the companion's positioning (to avoid AoE and other hazards), though. Otherwise, no complaints. Annihilation spec would have probably been even easier.

[justandulas]

It's not our problem if you cannot spend enough time playing the game. HOW ABOUT instead of you lurking the forums and thinking you deserve all of this entitlements just because you are spending $200 every month, GO PLAY THE GAME.

 

Just because you spend $200 a month doesn't mean you're a big shot and a big supporter of Bioware. What are you? a kid bragging that hey I spend $200 bucks, I have the right to say and demand stuff. Grow up and act your age please.

 

If you are spending that much money and are not able to enjoy and spend some time in the game, It wonders me what kind of gamer are you really and there must be really something wrong with you buddy.

 

A kid doesn't have a spare 200 to dump into a game. No need to be rude to the man, he's allowed to do what he pleases. BW needs the cash shop to create new content. I wish they didn't do what they did and devalue this item for legacy benefits, but he isnt the only one who supports the shop because they want SWTOR to continue to grow in a positive way.

[Andryah]

By that logic, why not go ahead and sell top end raid gear on the CM as well? What is the point of being a long term subscriber if the long term benefits can just be purchased from the CM?

 

just when it looked like BW actually was going to do something good for long term subs to reward their loyalty, they spit in our face and sell it on the CM. Unreal how out of touch they are with what subs want.

 

Moving to a position of logical absurdity because you disagree with a developers decision as to how they provide content.... that actually undermines your position. It does not strengthen it. There is no strength in absurdity.

 

What should have been a way to reward people with high legacies, who have supported the product for months and in many cases over a year, instead has its value instantly destroyed by becoming a CM item.

 

Two points:

 

1) high legacy is immaterial to "who have supported the product for months". high legacy is a possible artifact of "support" but the fact is.. many players play very casually and over the same period of time put just as many dollars into this game as you do.. perhaps even more. High legacy is not an entitlement nor a badge of support.. it's a metric of how much content you grind.

 

2) The value remains exactly the same for the companion Treek. Treek is a companion that serves a functional purpose, almost totally for the 1-55 leveling experience. The value is not defined by how acquire Treek, it's defined by the actual value it provides the player in terms of in game play and fun.

 

Honestly.. it is hostile and aggressive hyperbole such as yours that derails any sensible discussion between forum members about topics like this.

[Superman_AZ]

WOW is about to test a cash shop actually so it will have one soon , not sure if it will go F2P though yet , someone has found data for a 100% xp boost within the game.

Had they actually looked into the WoW DB, they would have found that XP boost whose vendor value is 20s. It's been said the item will be purchasable from a vendor in game. Until someone datamines details of an actual cash shop, I tend not to lend veracity to rumors. They also thought the Black Market Auction House was going to be cash like it was in Diablo 3.

 

Until they become a "hybrid", they will continue to turn out new content and expansions based on player funds via a subscription. Had SWTOR been more successful, it never would have been a hybrid in the first place. People pay for quality, or what they consider quality. "Real gamers" need to stop biting off the heads of casuals like myself since we pay a sub AND purchase CCs. If I had access to BW's data, I would bet a medium 6 figures that the sales in the CM vastly outweigh the pittance brought in from Subs currently.

[Superman_AZ]

I was wondering why you pretended to be a gold farmer to get perma-banned from wow ? , instead of just un-subbing ? The game annoyed you that much to warrant never ever going back ? Just seems a little extreme way of leaving an MMO that's all.

I wanted to address these separately. For me, WoW was like a bad relationship. You knew she was no good for you, but you kept going back to her. My method insured if I ever went back to her, I would have to re-purchase all of the expansions and start at level 1 with nothing. If I just unsubbed, I would simply resub and fall back into a bad relationship. This way, it was like faking my own death and moving out of the country. If I ever wanted to go back, the expense would be far too great to justify.

[Andryah]

Ultimately, it is about options. Everyone deserves a chance to experience the game regardless of their wallet or calendar.

 

This really is the key point in all of this. Bioware has taken the approach of giving as many people as possible a chance to experience as much of the game as possible. So they are providing choices that let players choose, based on their play style and needs/desires. These are centered on vanity item and quality of life items... both of which are widely desired and used by a broad player base.

 

My above comment is NOT an invitation of yet another... "sell insta-55 tokens then!" There are core elements to every game that require the player actually play the game. In MMOs.. leveling is a key one, as is playing endgame content and acquiring the power components (stats) of gear through actual play. Quality of Life and Vanity content is generally accepted in the genre player base as acceptable to gain through different pathways..... insta leveling and insta-completing end game raid content and PvP IS NOT. So, please.. no more absurdity along these lines.

 

Some people seem to think that the "freebie" earned simply by playing a game (LEGACY) is somehow a cherished badge of entitlement. It's not. It's a perk for playing and all you can gain from it are QoL and Vanity perks. People need to get out of the clouds and embrace pragmatic reality here IMO.

 

Separately, on the matter of having to pay credits on top of Legacy Level for perk unlocks, I disagree with it and always have. It was, and remains, bad design IMO. At the same time... I don't own the game and I am not making the decisions.. Bioware is. It's up to them. All we can do is provide sensible and reasoned suggestion and feedback (sans the nasty hyperbolic absurd tantrums that so many seen to need to vent into the forum). If you, like me, do not agree with the credit soak attached to Legacy for unlocks.. send Bioware polite, informed, sensible feedback via in-game and the suggestion forum. STOP beating each other up over it.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Andryah

[Helig]

A kid doesn't have a spare 200 to dump into a game. No need to be rude to the man, he's allowed to do what he pleases. BW needs the cash shop to create new content. I wish they didn't do what they did and devalue this item for legacy benefits, but he isnt the only one who supports the shop because they want SWTOR to continue to grow in a positive way.

Yes, they do need the money for the game to grow and to create content. Trouble is, they release less and less actual content (rehashing old content doesn't count), and more cartel market content.

 

Make no mistake, I love their take on lore outfits and crazy, unique weapons (fan of the Primordial weapons myself), but actual game development is painfully slow, and quality control doesn't seem to be a priority. Not a top priority - a priority at all.

[BadOrb]

Had they actually looked into the WoW DB, they would have found that XP boost whose vendor value is 20s. It's been said the item will be purchasable from a vendor in game. Until someone datamines details of an actual cash shop, I tend not to lend veracity to rumors. They also thought the Black Market Auction House was going to be cash like it was in Diablo 3.

 

Until they become a "hybrid", they will continue to turn out new content and expansions based on player funds via a subscription. Had SWTOR been more successful, it never would have been a hybrid in the first place. People pay for quality, or what they consider quality. "Real gamers" need to stop biting off the heads of casuals like myself since we pay a sub AND purchase CCs. If I had access to BW's data, I would bet a medium 6 figures that the sales in the CM vastly outweigh the pittance brought in from Subs currently.

 

I agree that players like yourself contribute a lot to SWTOR , we had a discussion about this some months ago. So we have around 500 k subs ( or did ) and 1.7 mil F2P users and the revenue has just over doubled since before F2P. I'm trying very hard to do some math but it probably boils down to subbs and micro transaction users are equally important. So it had between 500 k and 1 mil before F2P , some one work out the math for me and here's a link.

 

http://www.polygon.com/2013/5/7/4309866/star-wars-the-old-republic-revenue-doubled-free-to-play

 

Cheers,

 

BadOrb.

[Superman_AZ]

A kid doesn't have a spare 200 to dump into a game. No need to be rude to the man, he's allowed to do what he pleases. BW needs the cash shop to create new content. I wish they didn't do what they did and devalue this item for legacy benefits, but he isnt the only one who supports the shop because they want SWTOR to continue to grow in a positive way.

Thank you for seeing that. You are right. I think this game has amazing potential, but until they either take it back to subs, or fully Free-to-play, this type of animosity will continue. I just wish people would understand I am neither the enemy nor the prophet. I am simply a casual who enjoys the game and supports it financially in a variety of ways.

[Superman_AZ]

Yes, they do need the money for the game to grow and to create content. Trouble is, they release less and less actual content (rehashing old content doesn't count), and more cartel market content.

 

Make no mistake, I love their take on lore outfits and crazy, unique weapons (fan of the Primordial weapons myself), but actual game development is painfully slow, and quality control doesn't seem to be a priority. Not a top priority - a priority at all.

My take on that is the Devs are seeing where the money is coming from. If the CM sells more gear than FP/WZ/OPs unlocks, they will likely continue to produce casual content for the CM. Subs usually drive content, but 250k subs is just a drop in a large bucket for the kind of money and resources needed for new content. If they could find a way to balance the revenue from the CM, giving both casual and content related items, the CM would likely see more sales for content gear and those sales could then fund the future content and expansions.

[Hessen]

I do have to say that whilst it's up to you what you spend your money on, if it's being spent on the notion that supporting this game will lead to noticeable improvements, or a shift in focus of development away from CM fluff,I think your faith is severely misplaced.

 

You don't get to attach a note to your subscription or CM coin purchases saying "I'm buying this so you can have more money in the hope that you give us more story content please" - all they see their end is that there has been a CM market purchase, so therefor lets give the customers more of that.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Hessen

[Superman_AZ]

I agree that players like yourself contribute a lot to SWTOR , we had a discussion about this some months ago. So we have around 500 k subs ( or did ) and 1.7 mil F2P users and the revenue has just over doubled since before F2P. I'm trying very hard to do some math but it probably boils down to subbs and micro transaction users are equally important. So it had between 500 k and 1 mil before F2P , some one work out the math for me and here's a link.

 

http://www.polygon.com/2013/5/7/4309866/star-wars-the-old-republic-revenue-doubled-free-to-play

 

Cheers,

 

BadOrb.

If the revenue has doubled since before F2P, that means they now have 2M people (subs or FTP) using the CM and spending real money. Had they developed the CM and used in game creds, instead of cash, and added other user content and fluff materials, they would likely still be a full sub game with a thriving CM. Unfortunately, hindsight is 20/20 and there is no real way to rectify that mistake.

[Superman_AZ]

I do have to say that whilst it's up to you what you spend your money on, if it's being spent on the notion that supporting this game will lead to noticeable improvements, or a shift in focus of development away from CM fluff,I think your faith is severely misplaced.

 

You don't get to attach a note to your subscription or CM coin purchases saying "I'm buying this so you can have more money in the hope that you give us more story content please" - all they see their end is that there has been a CM market purchase, so therefor lets give the customers more of that.

I am well aware of that. In my case, I am not purchasing content related items in the CM. I get mostly gear, packs, speeders, etc. I do, however, use CCs to unlock all of my Legacy Perks on each character.

 

As I mentioned before, until they add content related items to the CM, and see the shift in purchasing, they can only assume people want cosmetics instead of content. I hope it happens to help those who are content driven, but most people who discuss content stand firmly on the fact that it should come free with their subs. Only issue is, there are 250k subs, and 2.5M FTP. I don't see that shifting any time soon.

[CommanderKeeva]

I do have to say that whilst it's up to you what you spend your money on, if it's being spent on the notion that supporting this game will lead to noticeable improvements, or a shift in focus of development away from CM fluff,I think your faith is severely misplaced.

 

You don't get to attach a note to your subscription or CM coin purchases saying "I'm buying this so you can have more money in the hope that you give us more story content please" - all they see their end is that there has been a CM market purchase, so therefor lets give the customers more of that.

 

Who's to say they're even reinvesting the money they get from SWTOR into SWTOR? More likely EA shifts a fair portion of that money into developing other projects and puts this game into maintenance mode with just enough content to keep some people subbed on the pretense that it might one day change. (Though from the looks of things it gets harder and harder to keep the subscribers in check.)

 

Everything else is put in the Cartel Market and as long as the most prominent part of the game remains the $ shop, I don't really see how the number of subs would ever go up.

[BadOrb]

I wanted to address these separately. For me, WoW was like a bad relationship. You knew she was no good for you, but you kept going back to her. My method insured if I ever went back to her, I would have to re-purchase all of the expansions and start at level 1 with nothing. If I just unsubbed, I would simply resub and fall back into a bad relationship. This way, it was like faking my own death and moving out of the country. If I ever wanted to go back, the expense would be far too great to justify.

 

I like your analogy and I see your point , been there done that and the bad times out weigh the good. be careful though ( if you used a credit card ) , your card might have gotten flagged because of it , otherwise no worries.

 

Cheers,

 

BadOrb.

[Hessen]

I am well aware of that. In my case, I am not purchasing content related items in the CM. I get mostly gear, packs, speeders, etc. I do, however, use CCs to unlock all of my Legacy Perks on each character.

 

As I mentioned before, until they add content related items to the CM, and see the shift in purchasing, they can only assume people want cosmetics instead of content. I hope it happens to help those who are content driven, but most people who discuss content stand firmly on the fact that it should come free with their subs. Only issue is, there are 250k subs, and 2.5M FTP. I don't see that shifting any time soon.

 

If you (or anyone) is spending a decent chunk of money on cosmetic fluff on the CM each month, then I'd say you're part of the problem, not part of the solution.

 

Assuming the problem is the long term direction of the game and the solution isn't instant gratification and enjoying the game as it is now.

[Helig]

My take on that is the Devs are seeing where the money is coming from. If the CM sells more gear than FP/WZ/OPs unlocks, they will likely continue to produce casual content for the CM. Subs usually drive content, but 250k subs is just a drop in a large bucket for the kind of money and resources needed for new content. If they could find a way to balance the revenue from the CM, giving both casual and content related items, the CM would likely see more sales for content gear and those sales could then fund the future content and expansions.

Where the *short* money is coming from. They're moving away from catering to dedicated players who appreciate the substance of the game towards catering to fresh players who love shiny things.

 

Possible result - heightened rotation of the player base, degradation of the community (quite noticeable already), further shifting of focus from rewarding dedication to offering instant gratification. Not quite the project I want to continue supporting. I won't lie - I'm a Bioware fan, I'm a Star Wars fan - those are the two primary reasons that keep me playing (and paying). But dedication to the brand can only hold so long. There are other titles of other brands (which I appreciate as much as Star Wars - namely, Elder Scrolls) on the horizon. If EAware continues pushing towards this "MMO fastfood" game architecture, I can perfectly see myself discontinuing my subscription and investing my spare money into a product that I like more, and my spare time into a community that is less washed-out.

[CommanderKeeva]

As I mentioned before, until they add content related items to the CM, and see the shift in purchasing, they can only assume people want cosmetics instead of content. I hope it happens to help those who are content driven, but most people who discuss content stand firmly on the fact that it should come free with their subs. Only issue is, there are 250k subs, and 2.5M FTP. I don't see that shifting any time soon.

 

Considering the outrage about putting 4 cutscenes on the Cartel Market and making the subs pay extra money for them, I cannot imagine the magnitude of the backslash that would ensue after putting a flashpoint or operation on the CM. The only reason they got away with Makeb was that they somehow crammed in 5 levels and called it an expansion pack.

[Hessen]

Who's to say they're even reinvesting the money they get from SWTOR into SWTOR? More likely EA shifts a fair portion of that money into developing other projects and puts this game into maintenance mode with just enough content to keep some people subbed on the pretense that it might one day change. (Though from the looks of things it gets harder and harder to keep the subscribers in check.)

 

Everything else is put in the Cartel Market and as long as the most prominent part of the game remains the $ shop, I don't really see how the number of subs would ever go up.

 

Oh I'm absolutely sure that this game is permanently on maintenance mode and has been written off as a failure by EA. Even if income doubled and there was a huge loyal fanbase, there's no chance of seeing additional content of any decent quality.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if running all the servers, in game customer support, developing new content and forum customer relations were all handled just by a couple of outsourced temps in India on minimum wages.

[BadOrb]

If the revenue has doubled since before F2P, that means they now have 2M people (subs or FTP) using the CM and spending real money. Had they developed the CM and used in game creds, instead of cash, and added other user content and fluff materials, they would likely still be a full sub game with a thriving CM. Unfortunately, hindsight is 20/20 and there is no real way to rectify that mistake.

 

Well it was losing subbs and originally they did say the game had to have at least 500k subbs to make a profit , mind you that was before a few rounds of layoffs. So the hybrid model saved it. So with about 500 k subbs and 1.7 mil F2P , the subbs count for about 1/3 of the total revenue and micro transactions count for about 2/3 of the revenue. In your case you are paying for both so indeed your spending the way you do helps the game survive and even make a profit.

 

Cheers,

 

BadOrb.

[Superman_AZ]

I like your analogy and I see your point , been there done that and the bad times out weigh the good. be careful though ( if you used a credit card ) , your card might have gotten flagged because of it , otherwise no worries.

 

Cheers,

 

BadOrb.

I am hoping the card did get flagged It only further removes the temptation of returning since I have one specific card I use for all my games. Then, if something happens, none of my other cards are affected. But I appreciate the warning. I'm sure others would likely want to know as well.

[Superman_AZ]

If you (or anyone) is spending a decent chunk of money on cosmetic fluff on the CM each month, then I'd say you're part of the problem, not part of the solution.

 

Assuming the problem is the long term direction of the game and the solution isn't instant gratification and enjoying the game as it is now.

I might be a part of one problem, but as a Subscriber, I am a part of the solution for the other issue. I am a casual gamer, first and foremost. I gave up hardcore raiding 5 years ago when I got married and sold my book. I just do not have time to dedicate to video games anymore; however, that should not exclude me from belonging to such a community and enjoying the MMO for what it is... a game.

 

I understand there are a lot of players who play the game for the challenge, and the unity of guild raiding. There are also the other players who play simply to enjoy the Star Wars universe and experience idle diversion from real life for an hour or two on a Friday night. What most players fail to see is the other side of the coin. I have been the elitist hardcore gamer than ran 60+ hours a week during The Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King in WoW. I was farming 10 hours a day getting ready for my weekly lockouts. After 5 years, I burned out and I turned casual.

 

As a casual gamer, I would log in to WoW, do some exploring, get some achievements, and on occasion, raid. I saw the game from the other side of the coin. The gear changer, and the barbershop. Roleplaying and drinking in the tavern in Stormwind. They were some great times, but it needed to end. So I got myself perma-banned and moved on to SWTOR.

 

Now, in SWTOR, I am just taking my time, enjoying the story lines a few hours a week and getting to see the things said in General chat both on the planets, and on the fleet. My ignore list has grown exponentially since joining, but I find the ignore feature to be invaluable. It allows me to continue to enjoy the game without comments from a certain demographic. So, yes, my casual status may not contribute to Content, but rather cosmetic items, but I am still supporting the content by being subbed, and that should count for something.

 

People need to move for the removal of Free-to-Play while implementing a full-scale bamf of an expansion. The only way to get people to sub, is to make subbing A) worth it for some players, and B) possibly eliminating the Free side of the game. The old phrase "you get what you pay for" still applies, even more so when most of the player base pays for nothing.

[Superman_AZ]

How on earth is that remotely an offensive stereotype? It's a common business practice (I know, my company have recently done it)

The wage might be minimum, but in Dubai, if you don't have a Bachelor's degree, an employer won't even consider you for most technical jobs. Most of them require a Masters just to make above $36K per year. Granted, that is still a lot of money for these people, but their population is so high, employers are very demanding of requirements.

 

I feel sorry for them. I don't even have a Bachelor's degree, and I can't recall the last time I made less than 80k. It's a tough market over there. I know it is a common practice, but I would definitely be mindful of the phrasing You might want to refer to it as "moving support offshore".

[Apophis_]

If you wish to purchase Treek using Cartel Coins there is no Legacy level requirement. The Legacy level requirement is only if you wish to use credits.

 

-eric

 

Pay to win.