Combat Logs are coming! Damage meters & analysis soon to follow!

[mufutiz]

Instagibbed by a boss...

from what I have been reading, not a single boss in game is so hard that groups are not taking them down without too much effort, so if anyone got instagibbed, it did not take long to work out how to beat the event.

 

I certainly haven't faced a boss yet that could not be beaten in less than 5-10 attempts, have you?

 

It was an example situation. Combat logs are absolutely imperative for any decent tank though and obviously, it's not just about finding out what killed you and for how long you received no healing.

 

shot in the back in pvp...

how is a combat log going to help you...it will show you got shot...and? how is showing the damage done by the shot going to help. It was enough to kill you.

 

Again, an example. If you don't care to know what killed you while you were facing away - no problem dude. Just disable the combat log that comes with the next patch and try to solve the puzzle by meditating on it or something like that.

 

Seeing the name of an ability that deals damage to you, who used it, how much damage it did and how much you resisted, what kind of damage it did and why the dot seemed to be ticking so fast (oh surprise two different guys dotted you up!), etc pp. There is a wealth of information you can draw from your combat log in any pvp situation, including your own output of course.

 

If you have time to track all those numbers during a pvp encounter I salute you (more likely I should encourage you to stop observing and start pushing some buttons though)

 

A lot of people don't care about this, I know. They don't have to utilize it though, nobody forces them. To those guys I say - just disable the combat log and enjoy your backpedal session the way that's good for you.

 

Basically, combat logs and damage meters are for extremely bad players who can't even work out how to beat even easy events.

or they are for "leet" idiots so they can show off.

 

Neither is one I would like to play with.

 

this statement alone is a safe way for me to assess what kind of player you are.

 

which is why I am regretting even taking the time to write down the answer above. you got me

Edited February 19, 2012 by mufutiz

[Rollcageuk]

Combat logs and dps meters bring accountability to a raid team. They also help people see where they go wrong with their rotations and correct the problem. They also allow people to see how they're stacking up against others of the same class and spec.

 

How are any of these things bad?

 

With damage meters implemented forming groups will be less about the gear and more about the skill of the player...is the current situation better? Am I missing something? Do people really like basing the decision of who to invite/keep in their groups based on gear alone?

 

It's a game FFS, a pastime, a hobby, you want to add accountability. You make it sound like it's a job! It's lightsabers and blasters..take a step back and read your own post. Your taking lightsabers wayyyyyy to seriously!

 

In addition

Nothing in TOR is that hard that you need to add any of the the things you list, so if that is your reasoning, you have playing issues that combat logs will not solve. If you care about things like rotations that much, then you should be good enough that you don't need logs etc.

So what you really want to do is tell someone else they're not good enough, and then we come back to the game aspect and your delusion of grandeur.

[mufutiz]

It's a game FFS, a pastime, a hobby, you want to add accountability. You make it sound like it's a job! It's lightsabers and blasters..take a step back and read your own post. Your taking lightsabers wayyyyyy to seriously!

 

It's a hobby, allright.

 

A very time consuming one. Time you voluntarily or involuntarily spend with other people you might know really well or not at all.

 

Time that is much more limited than our mind allows us to realize in order to not make us go insane in the face of our own mortality.

 

 

so yeah, better not waste my time, bro.

 

 

In addition

Nothing in TOR is that hard that you need to add any of the the things you list, so if that is your reasoning, you have playing issues that combat logs will not solve. If you care about things like rotations that much, then you should be good enough that you don't need logs etc.

So what you really want to do is tell someone else they're not good enough, and then we come back to the game aspect and your delusion of grandeur.

 

MMOs are made for people who, among other things ofc, like the intricacies of the system. People who love numbers. People who will min/max their characters relentlessly. People who will farm the same content over and over again to get an item that will prove to be a small stat increase.

 

 

Yeah, the truth of the matter is most people who oppose even the idea of combat logs (damage meters are a - slightly - different matter) just plain out suck.

 

 

Yeah it's unlikely the balance is all there yet. But at least we will finally get to talk about problems that we know for a fact are there. Right now people are calling class dps differences based purely on a feeling that they get from how the numbers roll I guess. It's not very productive when the main problem is not being able tell if the problem is even real

 

exactly the problem!

 

It's not even about overarching class balance alone.

 

there is no way to tell what kind of stealth-nerfs they might try to sneak past us

Edited February 19, 2012 by mufutiz

[Rollcageuk]

It was an example situation. Combat logs are absolutely imperative for any decent tank though and obviously, it's not just about finding out what killed you and for how long you received no healing.

 

 

 

Again, an example. If you don't care to know what killed you while you were facing away - no problem dude. Just disable the combat log that comes with the next patch and try to solve the puzzle by meditating on it or something like that.

 

Seeing the name of an ability that deals damage to you, who used it, how much damage it did and how much you resisted, what kind of damage it did and why the dot seemed to be ticking so fast (oh surprise two different guys dotted you up!), etc pp. There is a wealth of information you can draw from your combat log in any pvp situation, including your own output of course.

 

If you have time to track all those numbers during a pvp encounter I salute you (more likely I should encourage you to stop observing and start pushing some buttons though)

 

A lot of people don't care about this, I know. They don't have to utilize it though, nobody forces them. To those guys I say - just disable the combat log and enjoy your backpedal session the way that's good for you.

 

 

 

this statement alone is a safe way for me to assess what kind of player you are.

 

which is why I am regretting even taking the time to write down the answer above. you got me

 

I'm not sure whether to laugh or Facepalm. Your reasons have nothing to do with the game we are talking about.

 

TOR as a game has been well and truly already by quite a few MMO players, and all without the logs, so to say something is imperative for a decent tank is already wrong, as tanks have already done their job beaten the end game bosses. Have you been playing the same game as everyone else. If you have any MMo experience, you will know that TOR is easy, too easy..so you don't need logs to beat bosses at all!!

 

If you are in any half decent size PVP situation, there will be DOTs etc flying around you like anything. Those logs are going to be pretty much useless unless you are in a 1-1 situation. When we are doing BG's in pandaville you had very small groups and this sort of info actually became a bit more useful, but as we don't have that in TOr yet, it is again useless.

 

in nearly all cases where combat logs and dame counter have been used they have also been abused and used to either belittle some players and show off to others....none of which are useful.

 

So I'll say this

 

If the logs only show the damage you do, or done to you...... then fine.

if in your raid group you don't force people to have and share the logs..then fine.

 

if both the above conditions were meet then I would happily say go ahead, have your logs. Take what is supposed to be a game and turn it into a job. If you want to turn lightsabers into a non-paying, ultimately worthless job, that's fine.

But the moment you want to comment on someone elses logs without them specifically asking you...you lose as the only reason will be to belittle, ridicule or gloat. All of which have no place in a game!

 

And don't try to state you know what kind of player I am, you have no idea what kind of player I am so don't pretend otherwise.

[Arnathis]

Instagibbed by a boss...

from what I have been reading, not a single boss in game is so hard that groups are not taking them down without too much effort, so if anyone got instagibbed, it did not take long to work out how to beat the event.

 

I certainly haven't faced a boss yet that could not be beaten in less than 5-10 attempts, have you?

shot in the back in pvp...

how is a combat log going to help you...it will show you got shot...and? how is showing the damage done by the shot going to help. It was enough to kill you.

 

Basically, combat logs and damage meters are for extremely bad players who can't even work out how to beat even easy events.

or they are for "leet" idiots so they can show off.

 

Neither is one I would like to play with.

 

It's crazy how uninformed people are and how much nonsense they'll spew despite having no clue what they're talking about. Combat logs and damage meters are for bad players? In my experience its the people who disregard them that are the worst. Combat logs and damage meters are tools you can use to evaluate yourself and your teammates.

 

You haven't faced a boss that couldn't be beaten in 5-10 attempts? That's a good thing? Personally I enjoy tough, complicated bosses where everyone has to be on their toes for the entire duration. I enjoy enrage timers that are so tight an early death means a wipe no matter how fast someones battle rezzed. Compared to heroic WoW raids these bosses are unbelievably forgiving, you know why? Because they have to be to make up for the fact there's no way to tell how you or your fellow ops mates are doing numbers wise and where you can make improvements. They HAVE to be forgiving because the current UI sucks and isn't as responsive as it could be with the help of third party addons. They HAVE to be forgiving because our healers are still stuck in the past having to point and click their heals instead of having mouse over macros or a healing addon to help them.

 

Sure you can easily see if someone keeps dying cause they stand there in melee range and take Gharj's smashes to the face but how are you gonna be able to pick out that an important add isn't dying quickly enough because "player A" isn't switching to it? How will you be able to tell how far behind an enrage timer you are and where you need to make an adjustment to meet it?

 

You obviously aren't into the more challenging content these games can offer and that's completely fine, there's so many of you out there and none of us are telling you you can't be that way, just find the people on your server that are on your level and play with them. Some of us enjoy challenging content that requires pinpoint precision and tools to evaluate where we went wrong after each and every attempt. Without operations that offer this kind of challenge many people will go back to another game that does offer that next level of difficulty. Part of the reason WoW has been so successful is because within a server you can have guilds competing for server first clears of the current raid tier. I'm personally in a guild that wins ours regularly, it's fun, I enjoy it, so do a lot (hundreds of thousands) of other people. You develop a healthy rivalry with other guilds on your server. Without features like addons, combat logs and damage meters this really wouldn't be possible. Sure we could still compete for the server firsts but without being able to intelligently evaluate ourselves it would feel more like luck than anything else and sustaining any measure of success would be near impossible due to having to almost blindly recruit people based on their gear alone. The fact that this game launched with so many features that should be standard really is amazing to me.

[DragonAgeOrgins]

It's crazy how uninformed people are and how much nonsense they'll spew despite having no clue what they're talking about. Combat logs and damage meters are for bad players? In my experience its the people who disregard them that are the worst. Combat logs and damage meters are tools you can use to evaluate yourself and your teammates.

 

You haven't faced a boss that couldn't be beaten in 5-10 attempts? That's a good thing? Personally I enjoy tough, complicated bosses where everyone has to be on their toes for the entire duration. I enjoy enrage timers that are so tight an early death means a wipe no matter how fast someones battle rezzed. Compared to heroic WoW raids these bosses are unbelievably forgiving, you know why? Because they have to be to make up for the fact there's no way to tell how you or your fellow ops mates are doing numbers wise and where you can make improvements. They HAVE to be forgiving because the current UI sucks and isn't as responsive as it could be with the help of third party addons. They HAVE to be forgiving because our healers are still stuck in the past having to point and click their heals instead of having mouse over macros or a healing addon to help them.

 

Sure you can easily see if someone keeps dying cause they stand there in melee range and take Gharj's smashes to the face but how are you gonna be able to pick out that an important add isn't dying quickly enough because "player A" isn't switching to it? How will you be able to tell how far behind an enrage timer you are and where you need to make an adjustment to meet it?

 

You obviously aren't into the more challenging content these games can offer and that's completely fine, there's so many of you out there and none of us are telling you you can't be that way, just find the people on your server that are on your level and play with them. Some of us enjoy challenging content that requires pinpoint precision and tools to evaluate where we went wrong after each and every attempt. Without operations that offer this kind of challenge many people will go back to another game that does offer that next level of difficulty. Part of the reason WoW has been so successful is because within a server you can have guilds competing for server first clears of the current raid tier. I'm personally in a guild that wins ours regularly, it's fun, I enjoy it, so do a lot (hundreds of thousands) of other people. You develop a healthy rivalry with other guilds on your server. Without features like addons, combat logs and damage meters this really wouldn't be possible. Sure we could still compete for the server firsts but without being able to intelligently evaluate ourselves it would feel more like luck than anything else and sustaining any measure of success would be near impossible due to having to almost blindly recruit people based on their gear alone. The fact that this game launched with so many features that should be standard really is amazing to me.

 

I'm just curious, when is the last time you been outside?

[Rollcageuk]

 

Yeah, the truth of the matter is most people who oppose even the idea of combat logs (damage meters are a - slightly - different matter) just plain out suck.

 

Based on what facts exactly? Your own prejudice because people want to play the game and don't want to turn it into a (very sad!) number crunching event does not by any account mean they suck. What facts do you have to support your claim? From where I stand, that's just poor mud slinging, which in intelligent circles means you have already lost the discussion.

 

 

exactly the problem!

 

It's not even about overarching class balance alone.

 

there is no way to tell what kind of stealth-nerfs they might try to sneak past us

 

hmm..if the problem is balance then BW will have their own logs and will sort it, they certainly won't want to use yours to make their balance decisions on. Oh, so you want to catch them nerfing characters...by stealth?!?! Hopefully the smily face meant you were joking on that one.

[DragonAgeOrgins]

Combat meters/logs

 

Not requires or wanted/stop perdicting doom. If this game ever does fail. It won't be because lack of combat logs. Seriously you think MMO's fail due to lack of combat logs. Wake up. They are a complete crutch. Player's who are not self aware use and at worst they turn the community into worse human beings( even though virtually impossible with some ) they were not even a built in add in wow. They were an "add on"

 

From a business point of view, they are horrible. If you make a product, then if you can't create new content faster then player's consume it. You got a problem. With combat logs, it will be horrible. Player's will burn through content like fire. Then come on here to complain. People will act like complete snobs.

 

No one talent tree will be unique. Everyone will have the same cookie cutter talent point and rotation. We left warcraft to get away from that pile of steaming mess. The LAST THING this game need's is a tool to insult other players. Maybe for the people who want the combat logs this game isn't for you.

 

Instead of trying to force them on other players shoving it down our throats. Why don't you just like a bunch of mature kids you pretend to be and we can be all happy. I will unsub the day combat logs/meter's are brought into this game, and I will do so with a smile.

[Arnathis]

It's a game FFS, a pastime, a hobby, you want to add accountability. You make it sound like it's a job! It's lightsabers and blasters..take a step back and read your own post. Your taking lightsabers wayyyyyy to seriously!

 

In addition

Nothing in TOR is that hard that you need to add any of the the things you list, so if that is your reasoning, you have playing issues that combat logs will not solve. If you care about things like rotations that much, then you should be good enough that you don't need logs etc.

So what you really want to do is tell someone else they're not good enough, and then we come back to the game aspect and your delusion of grandeur.

 

Yea nothing in this game is hard enough to necessitate these features right now and if you ask me all of these bosses are way too forgiving even on nightmare. Personally I like challenging content, not content I can fly through in a night or two. I'm on a raid team in WoW, the last raid tier we spent over 350 wipes on the last heroic boss (ragnaros) before we finally downed it, which was a couple months worth of raiding. To this day that's still my most exciting, heart pumping moment in any MMO I've ever played, I'll never forget it. That's the type of difficulty many people are looking for. You can have your normal modes but some of us aren't satisfied with that. Before you say "you guys must not be very good then" the number one guild in the world spent close to 500 attempts on the same boss over a two week span before killing it, so yea, it was a hard fight.

 

Some of us enjoy a challenge. Some of us enjoy the in depth analysis and planning that goes into a game like WOW. Really, the complexity of these games is what sets them apart from console RPG's. This game is currently lacking that next level of intricacy that many of us enjoy exploring. And yea, IT IS about being better than the next guy, I like competition, I was an athlete all my life, outside of my softball team WoW is really the only place I get to compete nowadays. If this game isn't gonna offer content challenging enough to make server firsts and world firsts worth paying attention to that's fine, I just won't be staying long, not a threat, just reality. There's a lot of others like me out there too. You want us to like this game so it can stay afloat, just as the game needs casuals it needs "hardcores" as well.

[Rollcageuk]

It's crazy how uninformed people are and how much nonsense they'll spew despite having no clue what they're talking about. Combat logs and damage meters are for bad players? In my experience its the people who disregard them that are the worst. Combat logs and damage meters are tools you can use to evaluate yourself and your teammates.

 

You haven't faced a boss that couldn't be beaten in 5-10 attempts? That's a good thing? Personally I enjoy tough, complicated bosses where everyone has to be on their toes for the entire duration. I enjoy enrage timers that are so tight an early death means a wipe no matter how fast someones battle rezzed. Compared to heroic WoW raids these bosses are unbelievably forgiving, you know why? Because they have to be to make up for the fact there's no way to tell how you or your fellow ops mates are doing numbers wise and where you can make improvements. They HAVE to be forgiving because the current UI sucks and isn't as responsive as it could be with the help of third party addons. They HAVE to be forgiving because our healers are still stuck in the past having to point and click their heals instead of having mouse over macros or a healing addon to help them.

 

Sure you can easily see if someone keeps dying cause they stand there in melee range and take Gharj's smashes to the face but how are you gonna be able to pick out that an important add isn't dying quickly enough because "player A" isn't switching to it? How will you be able to tell how far behind an enrage timer you are and where you need to make an adjustment to meet it?

 

You obviously aren't into the more challenging content these games can offer and that's completely fine, there's so many of you out there and none of us are telling you you can't be that way, just find the people on your server that are on your level and play with them. Some of us enjoy challenging content that requires pinpoint precision and tools to evaluate where we went wrong after each and every attempt. Without operations that offer this kind of challenge many people will go back to another game that does offer that next level of difficulty. Part of the reason WoW has been so successful is because within a server you can have guilds competing for server first clears of the current raid tier. I'm personally in a guild that wins ours regularly, it's fun, I enjoy it, so do a lot (hundreds of thousands) of other people. You develop a healthy rivalry with other guilds on your server. Without features like addons, combat logs and damage meters this really wouldn't be possible. Sure we could still compete for the server firsts but without being able to intelligently evaluate ourselves it would feel more like luck than anything else and sustaining any measure of success would be near impossible due to having to almost blindly recruit people based on their gear alone. The fact that this game launched with so many features that should be standard really is amazing to me.

 

LOL, as I have said already. I want to play this game as it should be played. A GAME!

 

You are basically wanting them to take all the fun out of the game and replace with pure maths. Well I don't. I would rather that TOR set the difficulty limits based on the fact there are no logs. Make them difficult, but not so difficult I have to get out an excel spreadsheet to do it. They can make the game difficult without needing logs.

 

It's a challenge a lot of players had in WOW vanilla, when MC and ONY were first introduced we didn't have logs, but we still downed him and her. Does that mean they were not difficult, no they were, Blizz made them difficult,challenging and needing skill with timing but we did it WITHOUT LOGS.

 

It's only from WOTK onwards it became imperative to have the logs because Blizz ran out of good ideas for bosses so instead just made them so difficult you could not do them without them. The best example was when CAT came out and everyone complained about the difficulty, not the skill or the ingenuity needed, just the difficulty.

 

TOR does need harder bosses, and bosses needing more skill, timings etc. But they can do that in the realms of a game that does not need logs.

 

L2P and you won't need the logs, it's that simple.

[Arnathis]

Combat meters/logs

 

Not requires or wanted/stop perdicting doom. If this game ever does fail. It won't be because lack of combat logs. Seriously you think MMO's fail due to lack of combat logs. Wake up. They are a complete crutch. Player's who are not self aware use and at worst they turn the community into worse human beings( even though virtually impossible with some ) they were not even a built in add in wow. They were an "add on"

 

From a business point of view, they are horrible. If you make a product, then if you can't create new content faster then player's consume it. You got a problem. With combat logs, it will be horrible. Player's will burn through content like fire. Then come on here to complain. People will act like complete snobs.

 

No one talent tree will be unique. Everyone will have the same cookie cutter talent point and rotation. We left warcraft to get away from that pile of steaming mess. The LAST THING this game need's is a tool to insult other players. Maybe for the people who want the combat logs this game isn't for you.

 

Instead of trying to force them on other players shoving it down our throats. Why don't you just like a bunch of mature kids you pretend to be and we can be all happy. I will unsub the day combat logs/meter's are brought into this game, and I will do so with a smile.

 

1. People are already burning through this content due to its simplicity. The content HAS to be easy BECAUSE people have no way of knowing where they're failing or who is the reason they're not meeting an enrage timer.

 

2. People left WoW because it's an eight year old game now. At it's peak it had over 12 mil subs and that was well after combat logs and addons were implemented. WoW's combat system is faster, more fluid and more complex than this ones even despite it being eight years old now and it's because of logs and addons.

 

3. There already are cookie cutter talent point builds. It was going to happen with or without combat logs, people will try to min/max no matter what.

 

4. You're gonna leave a game you apparently like because it provides a tool for people to evaluate their performance? You're gonna leave a game because it contains a feature you don't have to use? Would you leave a restaurant because they serve a particular fodd you don't like or would you just order something you do like?

 

5. Get a clue.

[DragonAgeOrgins]

Yea nothing in this game is hard enough to necessitate these features right now and if you ask me all of these bosses are way too forgiving even on nightmare. Personally I like challenging content, not content I can fly through in a night or two. I'm on a raid team in WoW, the last raid tier we spent over 350 wipes on the last heroic boss (ragnaros) before we finally downed it, which was a couple months worth of raiding. To this day that's still my most exciting, heart pumping moment in any MMO I've ever played, I'll never forget it. That's the type of difficulty many people are looking for. You can have your normal modes but some of us aren't satisfied with that. Before you say "you guys must not be very good then" the number one guild in the world spent close to 500 attempts on the same boss over a two week span before killing it, so yea, it was a hard fight.

 

Some of us enjoy a challenge. Some of us enjoy the in depth analysis and planning that goes into a game like WOW. Really, the complexity of these games is what sets them apart from console RPG's. This game is currently lacking that next level of intricacy that many of us enjoy exploring. And yea, IT IS about being better than the next guy, I like competition, I was an athlete all my life, outside of my softball team WoW is really the only place I get to compete nowadays. If this game isn't gonna offer content challenging enough to make server firsts and world firsts worth paying attention to that's fine, I just won't be staying long, not a threat, just reality. There's a lot of others like me out there too. You want us to like this game so it can stay afloat, just as the game needs casuals it needs "hardcores" as well.

 

 

Let's talk number's since you are so hell bent on people who don't cater to hardcore's. Okay, Rift a nice game but boom they brought in meter's and the community turned on each other like animals, ripping apart each other like sick creatures. It was heart breaking to watch a community so nice. All of a sudden turn on each other.

 

That's real adorable and cute, you try to relate your life outside of the game, into this game but it ain't working buddy. CATA, it was supposed to bring the HARD back in HARDCORE raider's for Warcraft, and what happened. All of a sudden the most popular MMO on the market took a nose dive in the stock market. 2 million sub's vanished in under a year.

 

Last quarter wow lost 100k sub's, so what are they doing now? big shocker, they are aiming for casual approach like they should have in the first place. You know they designed the cata raid's to be hard, and the community chewed it up and spit it out like a bad piece of gum. It still lives a sour taste in my mouth.

 

The reason wow had success, because it took the casual look. It removed death penalty. It made it easier to find groups without a guild. That game is nearly designed for casual. While everquest, you had to find your body if you died and if you didn't you lost all your loot. You attract more customers with casual, then hardcore. The hardcore are the mintory and the casual are the majority if you like it or not.

[Arnathis]

Let's talk number's since you are so hell bent on people who don't cater to hardcore's. Okay, Rift a nice game but boom they brought in meter's and the community turned on each other like animals, ripping apart each other like sick creatures. It was heart breaking to watch a community so nice. All of a sudden turn on each other.

 

That's real adorable and cute, you try to relate your life outside of the game, into this game but it ain't working buddy. CATA, it was supposed to bring the HARD back in HARDCORE raider's for Warcraft, and what happened. All of a sudden the most popular MMO on the market took a nose dive in the stock market. 2 million sub's vanished in under a year.

 

Last quarter wow lost 100k sub's, so what are they doing now? big shocker, they are aiming for casual approach like they should have in the first place. You know they designed the cata raid's to be hard, and the community chewed it up and spit it out like a bad piece of gum. It still lives a sour taste in my mouth.

 

The reason wow had success, because it took the casual look. It removed death penalty. It made it easier to find groups without a guild. That game is nearly designed for casual. While everquest, you had to find your body if you died and if you didn't you lost all your loot. You attract more customers with casual, then hardcore. The hardcore are the mintory and the casual are the majority if you like it or not.

 

Rift went south because of it's macro setup. Players were able to simplify their rotations into one to two buttons pressed over and over which made it boring.

 

WoW was at it's peak well after addons and meters were implemented. WoW is also an eight year old game now, the success wasn't going to continue forever. You can blame it on raids being too hard but I really think it was just that the game got old for a lot of people and Cata didn't bring anything so amazing to the table that people felt the need to keep their subs.

 

WoW was so successful because it incorporated a diverse player base, from the most casual of casuals to the hardest of harcores. If you wanted competitive, cutthroat raiding you could find it. If you wanted to just do 5 mans, dailies or even just farm gold by playing the auction house you could do that as well.

 

Fact of the matter is, if BW wants competitive raiding to be a part of this game (and they'd be foolish not to), if they wanna implement things like Nightmare mode raids (that are actually challenging) or rated arenas and battlegrounds they have to give players the ability to evaluate themselves and improve upon their play. Otherwise it just feels like you're guessing at everything, which isn't fun when you're wiping to a boss over and over and over.

 

WELCOME TO MODERN (BUT REALLY NOT EVEN THAT MODERN) DAY MMO'S

 

EDIT: thanks for calling me cute

Edited February 19, 2012 by Arnathis

[Arnathis]

I'm just curious, when is the last time you been outside?

 

We're BOTH on the SWTOR forums right now, let's be real. I'll admit, I have a nerd side to me, but I'm also an athlete and could probably run circles around you on any field or court.

[DragonAgeOrgins]

Rift went south because of it's macro setup. Players were able to simplify their rotations into one to two buttons pressed over and over which made it boring.

 

WoW was at it's peak well after addons and meters were implemented. WoW is also an eight year old game now, the success wasn't going to continue forever. You can blame it on raids being too hard but I really think it was just that the game got old for a lot of people and Cata didn't bring anything so amazing to the table that people felt the need to keep their subs.

 

WoW was so successful because it incorporated a diverse player base, from the most casual of casuals to the hardest of harcores. If you wanted competitive, cutthroat raiding you could find it. If you wanted to just do 5 mans, dailies or even just farm gold by playing the auction house you could do that as well.

 

Fact of the matter is, if BW wants competitive raiding to be a part of this game (and they'd be foolish not to), if they wanna implement things like Nightmare mode raids (that are actually challenging) or rated arenas and battlegrounds they have to give players the ability to evaluate themselves and improve upon their play. Otherwise it just feels like you're guessing at everything, which isn't fun when you're wiping to a boss over and over and over.

 

WELCOME TO MODERN (BUT REALLY NOT EVEN THAT MODERN) DAY MMO'S

 

EDIT: thanks for calling me cute

 

 

I think you are confusing what you want personally, to what the entire community wants. You see I was taught when I was younger, the difference from need and want. Now you want damage meter's, we don't NEED them. No one is having trouble clearing flash point's. This is just you re-cycle the same old stale arguments.

 

Rift allowed paser's and it took them month's to hit the one million mark and they are still are that number or slighty under. So let's toss out the "we need it or people will leave" because they have it and it's still not a great number of people playing. Pretty much that's just BS you use to get combat logs trying to claim something as truth, when it's not.

 

Wow had it's success, because it made everything easier. If you want I can find the article where they talk in detail about aiming for the casual market. They took everything that everquest had that was hard, and made it easy. We call this on a planet, I like to call earth. Casual.

 

Now I understand your over whelming need to be a little "special snowflake" in a MMO. Though your topic's are very very misleading. You seem to have your opinion's confused with actual fact's. You do not speak on behalf of entire community. I know this all may be new to you so I'll let you absorb that for a moment.

 

You can WANT damage meter's but forcing them into content where everything is SIMPLE. But I would advise against saying if this game fails it will be due to combat logs or damage meter's not being there. If it fails, it will be because the content doesn't keep player's entertained. I know this may also new to you but combat logs do not equal fun, nor will having them make player's fun.

 

Now as you continue with your rant. I plan to watch some videos on netflix. By all means continue with your rant. Just please don't make the mistake of confusing solid fact's with your personal opinions. Game is doing fine, 1.7 million and growing. All without combat logs.

s

And after I'm done with netflix. I think I'll log into COMBAT FREE LOG game and enjoy myself a flash point.

 

and edit, only reason I'm on forumss because my TV is broke so I use this to pass the time or else I would be offline.

Edited February 19, 2012 by DragonAgeOrgins

[Kenlonis]

Because people don't like to be reminded that they're only succeeding on the hard work of others?

 

if you are playing a game and consider anything you do in it as ''Hard Work'' (had to lol sorry)

 

You fail before the raid/group even gets started imo.

[mufutiz]

I'm not sure whether to laugh or Facepalm. Your reasons have nothing to do with the game we are talking about.

 

TOR as a game has been well and truly already by quite a few MMO players, and all without the logs, so to say something is imperative for a decent tank is already wrong, as tanks have already done their job beaten the end game bosses. Have you been playing the same game as everyone else. If you have any MMo experience, you will know that TOR is easy, too easy..so you don't need logs to beat bosses at all!!

 

If you are in any half decent size PVP situation, there will be DOTs etc flying around you like anything. Those logs are going to be pretty much useless unless you are in a 1-1 situation. When we are doing BG's in pandaville you had very small groups and this sort of info actually became a bit more useful, but as we don't have that in TOr yet, it is again useless.

 

in nearly all cases where combat logs and dame counter have been used they have also been abused and used to either belittle some players and show off to others....none of which are useful.

 

So I'll say this

 

If the logs only show the damage you do, or done to you...... then fine.

if in your raid group you don't force people to have and share the logs..then fine.

 

if both the above conditions were meet then I would happily say go ahead, have your logs. Take what is supposed to be a game and turn it into a job. If you want to turn lightsabers into a non-paying, ultimately worthless job, that's fine.

But the moment you want to comment on someone elses logs without them specifically asking you...you lose as the only reason will be to belittle, ridicule or gloat. All of which have no place in a game!

 

So because the game does not absolutely necessitate it we should not have a BASIC MMO FEATURE (please, just for a moment realize there is no respectable game that launched without a combat log since the decade before the last one... none I know of. Even complete indie games like Fallen Earth had a pretty functional combat log).

 

I guess they should just scratch all their plans then, who needs guild banks, right? The stock UI isn't that bad either if you think about it.

Same for target-of-target. Or dual specs.

 

everything can be done without so it's.... useless I guess?

 

 

 

I actually have not been doing a lot of pve at all, you want to know why? Because it's easy and boring. Been there, done that. There is literally not one single thing that is new or inventive to see for me here - at all.

 

So obviously you might be right, the pve in this game might not absolutely require it right now(my raiding guildees keep rambling about combat logs,ToT and other convenience features though. And who can blame them? There was no reason not to expect those, they are absolute standard by any measurement). But it can only be a good thing to know as much as possible about what happens to your character.

 

And I wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment of PvP. Especially because the engine is so laggy and there is still ability delay/clunkiness, faulty animations triggering when abilities are not actually triggered, etc pp.

 

 

Face it, combat logs are great. I want to know if I should stack a little more accuracy or not. How much difference in received damage that new upgrade made for me and what/who just crit me for 5k in the back. Surge Nerf? I want to see hard numbers before:after not wishy washy "yeah those yellow numbers do seem lower duh"

 

 

And don't try to state you know what kind of player I am, you have no idea what kind of player I am so don't pretend otherwise.

 

there's no way to know for sure over the internet.

 

you seem like a guy who got told on his subpar performance by his raid leader and possibly ridiculed in front of the entire raid one too many times though, that's for sure.

Edited February 19, 2012 by mufutiz

[Arnathis]

I think you are confusing what you want personally, to what the entire community wants. You see I was taught when I was younger, the difference from need and want. Now you want damage meter's, we don't NEED them. No one is having trouble clearing flash point's. This is just you re-cycle the same old stale arguments.

 

Rift allowed paser's and it took them month's to hit the one million mark and they are still are that number or slighty under. So let's toss out the "we need it or people will leave" because they have it and it's still not a great number of people playing. Pretty much that's just BS you use to get combat logs trying to claim something as truth, when it's not.

 

Wow had it's success, because it made everything easier. If you want I can find the article where they talk in detail about aiming for the casual market. They took everything that everquest had that was hard, and made it easy. We call this on a planet, I like to call earth. Casual.

 

Now I understand your over whelming need to be a little "special snowflake" in a MMO. Though your topic's are very very misleading. You seem to have your opinion's confused with actual fact's. You do not speak on behalf of entire community. I know this all may be new to you so I'll let you absorb that for a moment.

 

You can WANT damage meter's but forcing them into content where everything is SIMPLE. But I would advise against saying if this game fails it will be due to combat logs or damage meter's not being there. If it fails, it will be because the content doesn't keep player's entertained. I know this may also new to you but combat logs do not equal fun, nor will having them make player's fun.

 

Now as you continue with your rant. I plan to watch some videos on netflix. By all means continue with your rant. Just please don't make the mistake of confusing solid fact's with your personal opinions. Game is doing fine, 1.7 million and growing. All without combat logs.

s

And after I'm done with netflix. I think I'll log into COMBAT FREE LOG game and enjoy myself a flash point.

 

and edit, only reason I'm on forumss because my TV is broke so I use this to pass the time or else I would be offline.

 

You call my post a rant but then turn around and write something as incoherent as that? It's obvious I've gotten you flustered because the quality of your writing has gone way down, your brain is obviously moving too fast for your fingers to keep up.

 

Let me try to break this down though. Don't pretend you aren't gonna check back in five minutes either.

 

1. The GAME doesn't need a damage meter, I do, if I'm gonna continue to play it. I enjoy being able to evaluate myself and actually practice my rotation to the point where I have it mastered. CAN the game not have a damage meter? Obviously yea, the game can continue without one. Will I stay if it doesn't? No. There's a lot of other people who feel the same way, A LOT. Read the forums and you'll see them all.

 

2. Using a damage meter doesn't make you a hardcore player. I know plenty of people on WoW that hardly raid but still have recount and know how to use it because they enjoy seeing their results after an encounter and enjoy seeing tangible gains in dps after acquiring new gear. They also just strive to be the best they can be regardless of how many hours they play.

 

3. No one is telling you you have to use the damage meter. No one is saying they should make all content so hard that you have to use one. WoW just added their LFR version of raiding which is basically a raid finder that groups people cross server and ports them into an easy version of raids together. I think it's great, a lot of people get to experience content they otherwise wouldn't have. I'm not trying to take away the normal versions of operations, just add some more difficulty and complexity to nightmare for those of us that want it.

 

4. Addons/Macros/Damage meters all came about for a reason. People wanted them. They are part of the evolution of this genre of gaming whether you like it or not. To play without them sets games back years and makes combat less responsive and less realistic. Addons allow your brains decisions to appear in game faster, which makes for faster and more fluid play for those that want it. If I wanted to be able to press a few buttons and have a boss be dead I'd play a console RPG.

 

5. Enjoy your combat log free game while you can cause logs are coming and meters will be implemented soon after.

[Squatdog_nz]

Combat Logs should have been in the game from day one.

 

A tool like Recount is great for analysing and refining performance in both PVE/PVP and it's only a tiny, vocal minority of Bad Players and children who are opposed to it.

[Arnathis]

in nearly all cases where combat logs and dame counter have been used they have also been abused and used to either belittle some players and show off to others....none of which are useful.

 

I've never belittled someone because of their dps or healing. The most I've ever done to someone outside of my guild or raid team is whisper them asking them to step it up a notch so we can kill a boss or clear a dungeon. I've never been someone that's quick to vote kick people from pug groups. If I feel the rest of us can carry them then I'm fine with it and I'll let it slide without even commenting. Maybe my buddies and I will comment on it amongst ourselves but we never make it a point to embarass anyone.

 

If someones struggling and I know their class pretty well I'll usually ask them if they want some help and if they do I'll help em out. Know what I use to find out what they're doing wrong? A damage meter.

 

Fact of the matter is the people that are using damage meters to call others out and embarass them will find some other way to do so even without them. They'll either inspect them to check their gear and enhancements to see if they're right, they'll call them out for failing a mechanic or dying more often than they should. Damage meters aren't the problem, it's the people using them that can sometimes turn them into a negative.

[Wattser]

I like how he talks about tooltips yet its known they tend to be incorrect. Even simple things like stims. IE Rakata only adds 122 of a stat and not 138

[Sandanglockta]

They'll either inspect them to check their gear and enhancements to see if they're right

 

This right here. It's already going on right now because the only tools people have are HP and inspect. So even without having a "gearscore", this is what you have to do if you are pulling together a pug. You have to pre-judge people based on gear, which may have more to do with how long they have been lvl 50 than their skill.

 

Even if they don't do it prior, you can bet I am doing it after multiple wipes. Why? Because even though it's "just a game", my time is still important to me. I don't want to wipe all night because someone is just going through the motions.

 

People keep saying logs will take the fun out of the game, but for some of us end game IS the game. Not everything is as easy to see as standing in the fire. If the IA is spamming Snipe as often as possible and running out of energy for most of the fight, is that really something you don't want to know? Isn't it something you would want someone to tell you if you had no idea what you were doing?

[GalacticKegger]

Here's a more recent (by 3 months) January 26, 2012 Tor-Talk podcast with Stephen Reid who briefly touched on this...

 

SR: "We've always said for example, you know the stuff that people often ask about things like macros or mods or that kind of thing ... we're not completely against that sort of stuff. We just didn't watch for that quite frankly. So you know it's definitely a case of never say never. You know we think that it's still possible."

 

Tor-Talk: "So mods are sort of a potential possibility?"

 

SR: "They're definitely not off the table."

 

http://tor-talk.com/exclusive-interview/ (around minute 16:00)

 

[edit] OP was dated 12.21.2011 but the GZ interview in his post was from an 11.17.2011 podcast.

Edited February 19, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[DragonAgeOrgins]

Here's a more recent (by 3 months) January 26, 2012 Tor-Talk podcast with Stephen Reid who briefly touched on this...

 

SR: "We've always said for example, you know the stuff that people often ask about things like macros or mods or that kind of thing ... we're not completely against that sort of stuff. We just didn't watch for that quite frankly. So you know it's definitely a case of never say never. You know we think that it's still possible."

 

Tor-Talk: "So mods are sort of a potential possibility?"

 

SR: "They're definitely not off the table."

 

http://tor-talk.com/exclusive-interview/ (around minute 16:00)

 

Ha, so it's a MAYBE.

 

LOL to people said sure thing.

[Kunra]

"Coming Soon" seems to be a pattern with SWTOR...