Stealthy_Monkey Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Get a different translator, yours is clearly wrong. Might be hard for you to understand, probalby impossible because of your obviously limited ability to comprehend different views; but some players actually play a mmo without caring about "numbers" and being the hightest dps'er, healer, etc. That's absolutely fine. Anyone can choose to play the game they want. But I don't want people like that in my progression group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie_Mick Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I do not know why you are that angry, at least you seem to want offending me. But I have to proof you wrong Me, for example, used to be top dps for a long time, rogue, warlock, mage, whatever you want. I spent a lot of time and I liked it to improve my character. Those tools were useful for that time, but useless for me later when content was that easy that the most dangerous thing to happen would have been me sleeping away... But I still don't liked it to be "competitive" all time long. From time to time, yes, when content was challenging, ok. But with overaggroing players without any movement awareness just to read that he did 1% more dps than me before he was part of the wall or groud these tools were a pita and not a blessing. You might think differently, but this does not mean that you're automatically right Your argument is based around 'dps whores' I know a player, a real life friend, whom only cares about his dps. I watched him in wow, jump out of feign death too early just to get that tiny bit of extra dps, not lose aggro and blame the game, when in reality he was bad. His best trait was standing still dpsing, his raid awareness was deplorable at best. It's not hard right now to figure out if people are bad, do HM Soa, those that lack awareness to react quickly and run into a lightning ball, are bad. If one healer is thrown, and the other can't keep the raid up, they are bad. If a tank can't kite soa to a structure, he is bad. If a dps takes aggro, he is bad. As much as it's an epeen thing for some people, it adds a level of excitement as well as education. Two similar geared people, same gear, same class, one out dps's the other. Ask the higher for advice. People will stroke their own epeens and have a good time doing it when bragging about dps, but those types of people shouldn't deter the idea of a combat log. No matter how you spin any new feature in a game, there will always be people that don't agree, everyone wants it their way, well, go make you're own game. The criers here are the exact same criers that can't handle trolling. But trolling is never going away, much like your tears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie_Mick Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The problem is the limitation of space in groups and raids. If content is difficult then people are automatically classified in good or bad - either you can play your class or get lost, that's it. This is _not_ what _I_ like, but that's reality, get it. And there are two ways to solve that issue. 1. No group or raid limits - making zergs possible 2. Visit special zones and difficulty levels only in your preferred groups, resulting in faster or, in case of equally low-skilled-gamers, slower progression Blizzard tried to reduce the problem by simply implementing different difficulty levels and, now, the LFR. People crying "Ohh, that's TOO easy" get automatically slapped their faces for not being able to shift to the next difficult level instead of doing too-easy-content and powerwhining forums. That's it: Put responsibility on gamers, not on developers. But this does _not_ solve the problem as it comes back as soon as you hit normal or even hardmode zones. Then people, especially the one thinking of themselves how great they're doing, want tools to demonstrate that player X isn't that good as he or she is. Competitive gaming, known from PVP, "infects" PVE, which makes things curious: My best friend in raid is not only my best friend but my first opponent and if not him, then the idiot from last time - HAR, come, be my enemy... And yes, you are right: This is also a form, a very bad form of putting the responsibility on gamers, not on devs - people are not blaming the lack of creating good fights without reducing everything on numbers, but are blaming, instead, each other. For raid designers those tools are great. Not only they have proper tools for balancing, they also educate peoples to focus purely on numbers. If that point is reached the one and only target of a game is to implement items with higher numbers. And again. And again. And again. Till you reach a level which is too high, then you flatten the item numbers and BAM, there we go again and again and again. This is easy to implement and the greatest motivational engine for upcoming expansions. That's what I call "Fast Food Content" or "Wash 'n' Go Itemization". For me those DMG meters aren't a great idea. Not because the tools are bad - but because people are. And statistics are dangerous if not well understood or not well used as people tend to reduce _everything_ on few numbers. Not because they are idiots, but because they - already searching for a simplification of a complex comparison task - are willing to act that way. They _want_ a simple number they point to and say "hey, look, you suck". In my long career as mmo gamer I've met perhaps ten players who really were able to use statistics in a proper way. The rest used to turn boring raids in a GCC, a genital-comparison-challenge, making raids more interesting for them but raised up a lot of bad and evil backbiting... ... which, yes, would also exist without dmg meters, but with less substance as there would be no "proof" for their accusations. And, btw., reducing a game to numbers results in some kind of demystification of the game. I like the world and the fact to be part of it. As soon as numbers hit the game, it suddenly turns into a World of StarWarsCraft. At this point there is no reason for me to play a SciFi-Copy if I could easily play the original - from which I've escaped successfully. So far. Ama P.S. You made your account in November of 2011, you're not a SW fan at all you big girl. You and you alone followed the populous. You and you alone, will continue to follow the populous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tortoises Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 +1 For some kind of performance metrics. Performance Plans soon to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amarynthum Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) As much as it's an epeen thing for some people, it adds a level of excitement as well as education. I did not say that my opinion is the only valid one. I know that those tools are great - the problem is, and that's what I wanted to point out, that they aren't a blessing only. Especially when it comes down to a pure dps focused fight those tools are important, but the problem aren't those tools, the problem is poor design (again: imho). And yes, if we talk about education I could propose the idea of the possibility to "open up the data gate" for a specific player just to compare me with him after we talked to each other. And automatically open to the group- or raidleader. But I know, the big-brother-faction would say "Huuh, nooby leachers fly below radar, great!" - but this is the base difference between them and me: I do not assume other automatically to be bad and evil. Sorry for that Ah and P.S.: P.S. You made your account in November of 2011, you're not a SW fan at all you big girl. You and you alone followed the populous. You and you alone, will continue to follow the populous. If you want to flame me use the PM-function, I do not care much as others won't care about that, too. If it was not a flame: sorry. Btw. I followed the SW:ToR-thing since the beginning but have played that many MMOs that I don't jump from release to release or beta to beta Ama Edited February 7, 2012 by Amarynthum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie_Mick Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 You simply haven't followed it long enough to have a solid understanding of what you're saying. This is Star Wars, Star Wars is win. Don't like SW eps 1, 2 and 3? You'll still watch it in 3D, like ever other crier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedalin Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 It's not hard right now to figure out if people are bad, do HM Soa, those that lack awareness to react quickly and run into a lightning ball, are bad. If one healer is thrown, and the other can't keep the raid up, they are bad. If a tank can't kite soa to a structure, he is bad. If a dps takes aggro, he is bad. As much as it's an epeen thing for some people, it adds a level of excitement as well as education. Two similar geared people, same gear, same class, one out dps's the other. Ask the higher for advice. Have you even done HM Soa? Your supposed to run into a lightning ball on SOA. Have you tried healing G4-B3 Heavy Fabricator in Karagga's palace? Have you ever tried kiting SOA? Certain things that one would qualify as being "bad" aren't always true. Just because a dps ran into a lightning ball (seen here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB5SD6mfaOA at the 2:30 mark, and is suggest by dozens of guides) doesn't make them bad. Just because a healer can't solo heal a fight that dishes out tons of damage (such as Jarg and Sorno) doesn't make them bad. I did want to clarify that. I understand your arguing for the sake of a dps meter/combat logs, which I whole heartily agree with, I don't think it's fair to be spreading misinformation as "benchmarks." Competitive gaming, known from PVP, "infects" PVE, which makes things curious: My best friend in raid is not only my best friend but my first opponent and if not him, then the idiot from last time - HAR, come, be my enemy... I have my pvp mindframe, and my pve mindframe in a very separate state. Prior to even doing any pvp in any game, I had wanted a dps meter. You assume everyone wants a meter to show off, but really some of us use it as a positive tool. I mean really, the game already had dps benchmarks whether you are willing to see it or not. You can't down a boss before enrage? Then it's a dps issue. The only difference now, is that dps meters would allow everyone to see who is lacking, and who is not, and who needs help. For instance, a guild mate of mine joined a pug on EV HM. For anyone who hasn't done it, there is a boss called the Ancient Pylons. Basically everyone is assigned to a mob, and you have to dps it down in 4 minutes, and each mob has differences of health. So one might have 108k, and one might have 36k. Naturally you reserve your lower healthed mobs for tanks/healers, and assign the other mobs to who you think is good dps. So during this pug, he told me they wiped 8 times. 8 times on one of the simplest bosses in that instance. Not because people were trying to help (which gives you a MAJOR damage/heal debuff) but because one guy couldn't manage to put out 36k (which was the health of the mob, and he was DPS) in 4 minutes. Is it really fair for that raid to have wiped 8 times because someone just couldn't meet the requirements? After 8 times, he told me the raid leader, not only had to dps down his target, but went and picked up this guys mob as well. So he had to dps his own target, AND this guys and 4 minutes in order for them to pass. Personally I don't think that is fair. And considering Ancient Pylons is the 3rd boss in the instance, it's almost a case of "knowing to late" at that point. They couldn't figure out why the other bosses were so hard, and that boss made it clear. So really, what is the difference between having damage meters, vs. Ancient Pylons? Considering you have a dps benchmark, and a time limit, I would almost argue there is very little difference. And, btw., reducing a game to numbers results in some kind of demystification of the game. I like the world and the fact to be part of it. As soon as numbers hit the game, it suddenly turns into a World of StarWarsCraft. At this point there is no reason for me to play a SciFi-Copy if I could easily play the original - from which I've escaped successfully. So far. There are already number crunching websites out there for SWTOR. They may not exacts, and they may not have as much detail as information about WoW, but they are there. Along with "best spec" "best rotation" "BiS" etc etc. The only difference is there is a bit of guesswork whereas in WoW you can see the hard numbers. People will have the numbers crunched for this game regardless... it might just take them longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waffletimex Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Good god, to all those people that are against it, you're clearly incredibly insecure about how terrible you really are and don't want people to physically see you do poorly. This is a fantastic idea to gauge how you're doing as a player/group player especially. Stop your whining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruhx Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Good god, to all those people that are against it, you're clearly incredibly insecure about how terrible you really are and don't want people to physically see you do poorly. This is a fantastic idea to gauge how you're doing as a player/group player especially. Stop your whining. So how do you account for the DPS class that also knows how to play and uses interrupts and other non-DPS skills that are necessary, when using a dps meter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkeeor Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 you know who is doing the best dps for all the people that care about that stuff by who dies first on hard modes if the tank has been frozen! Whom ever croaks first you know is doing the highest dps! simple as that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosedog Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 So how do you account for the DPS class that also knows how to play and uses interrupts and other non-DPS skills that are necessary, when using a dps meter? A lot of damage meter programs have options that also show successful interrupts, I know skada had something like that back when I played wow. I remember doing SFK heroic and kept wiping on the first boss but it was easy to see who was at fault because skada showed they kept missing their interrupts. I hope the swtor system has something like that when it is added. When something goes wrong, you almost always know why it went wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkeeor Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 and that right there is what created the player base in WoW that still is there to this day.. one of the worst parts of that game is is seeing in trade chat and it's starting here is "Need 2 more for HMs have to be geared only" etc etc. Seeing that is wrong. When it comes to so called "damage meters" and whose fault it is because you wiped is nonsense. If you have to do it 20 times, do it 20 times. Don't blame or treat under geared people who are in these things to get gear, like you myself and others who already have it, it's a game. that is all it is...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigOso Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Yea I'll be sure not to use those and to stay away from the guilds that require you to have them. Thanks but no thanks. this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riddickcz Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Everything is "pretty good"...again alibism. Leaving back door open when its crap again to be able to say "oh but we didnt say it was OK, we said it was pretty good". Thats just so pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Novastinger Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 As the forum moderators directed us back here for combat logging related discussion, it would be nice if we could get a developer to give an update on this endeavor. Seeing as the initial response was from 12/21/11 (one day after launch), it would be nice to get a confirmation about the developers plans, and/or approximate timeframe for implementation (even if it's an answer like, "sometime before summertime"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanakar Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 DPS meters only show "ideal" DPS with character's current gear/skills. They show nothing about how good/bad the said player is putting said DPS into practical use, not to mention that no DPS meter shows how good/bad the player in question is with teamplay overall. Who cares about good use of interrupts, who cares about healing, who cares about being a good organizer and overall good and friendly team player, what matters is that my DPS is bigger than yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaedrynn Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Having read through this thread, mostly for amusement rather than because I actually care about the topic, I found it rather ironic that those who want a group/operation wide damage meter claim to be the 'good' players and immediately assume those who don't want them (or don't care either way) are the 'bad' players. Frankly, if you need to have your hand held to figure out how to optimize your DPS...you aren't in the 'good player' category. But then I suspect most of these 'good players' have never done much more to improve beyond going to EJ and looking at the results of other peoples efforts and simply applying them without any real understanding of the mechanics involved. Then they run around and post their 'elite' DPS numbers as if they were actually responsible for attaining them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caelrie Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Having read through this thread, mostly for amusement rather than because I actually care about the topic, I found it rather ironic that those who want a group/operation wide damage meter claim to be the 'good' players and immediately assume those who don't want them (or don't care either way) are the 'bad' players. Frankly, if you need to have your hand held to figure out how to optimize your DPS...you aren't in the 'good player' category. But then I suspect most of these 'good players' have never done much more to improve beyond going to EJ and looking at the results of other peoples efforts and simply applying them without any real understanding of the mechanics involved. Then they run around and post their 'elite' DPS numbers as if they were actually responsible for attaining them. And that's actually why we think you're a bad player. Good players know you need analytical tools to be able to fine-tune your performance in any activity. Bads "wing it". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirbfucius Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) Frankly, if you need to have your hand held to figure out how to optimize your DPS...you aren't in the 'good player' category. But then I suspect most of these 'good players' have never done much more to improve beyond going to EJ and looking at the results of other peoples efforts and simply applying them without any real understanding of the mechanics involved. Having empirical evidence and hard data, or learning from the testing of others is having your hand held? Many people can "see" they do less damage than another spec if it's a significant enough difference, but they either aren't sure why or aren't sure how they can improve. For example, Sorcs in pure 31pt Lightning or pure Madness do less damage than hybrid specs. I've come across plenty of players who can see their pure builds aren't dealing as much damage, but they aren't sure why until they come and read what others have discovered. Others just "eyeball it" and while that works for gross displacements in numbers (both healing and DPS), it doesn't work in the 10-15% difference range during an all-out skirmish. Obviously most references here are in relation to WoW, but FFXI had a brutally complicated damage, accuracy, and combat action speed system that was not properly discovered until various members of the community took large amounts of time and raw data gathered from parsers and combat logs to figure out. Once that information was verified and widely available, it allowed players wanting to do their perspective job better to look at gear, stats, and actions in a more efficient manner. Yes, there will always people taking advantage of other people's gathered data and not understanding the mechanics of why it works the way it does. Yes, some will be immature enough to say "I'm the best, everyone should have this spec, etc". That is not a reason to staunch the community at large, much less condemn it. Regarding the situation of "Well this spec does more than just DPS, it also does CC and backup heals". That's certainly a viable statement, but then it's up to the group leader if they want to dedicate a body to doing that. If the healers or tanks or DPS could be made more efficient to the point of outmodding that spot then perhaps the group would benefit more from replacing the "backup" guy that is there to pick up slack with someone more dedicated to a particular role and there not being any slack to pick up. Edited February 14, 2012 by kirbfucius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironix Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) But then I suspect most of these 'good players' have never done much more to improve beyond going to EJ and looking at the results of other peoples efforts and simply applying them without any real understanding of the mechanics involved. In the western scientific tradition we stand on the shoulders of giants. I suppose along these lines, Einstein had his hand held because he derived much of his early work from Maxwell's field equations... I'll be the first to admit that when it comes to improving my class, I would read the EJ forums and make use of the mountains of data collected there. Can't say I'd follow the advice exactly, but they do serve as an excellent base that I adjust to fit my particular play style. In any case, what you're saying is somewhat false. A good player won't simply blindly follow the results of other players, but they will use it as a foundation from which they can adjust to best suit their needs. However, bad players will blindly follow the advice without any real understanding. Having access to more data will not change the fact that sheep will be sheep, but at the very least it will mean that they're less likely to be led by a fool. Edited February 14, 2012 by ironix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maestrodomus Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 It's definitely needed in an mmo to optimize OPS for when they actually become difficult. They make it worlds easier to assure that certain talents and procs are working as stated. To track boss mechanics such as damage types, abilities, intervals between special attacks and phases, etc. If you don't want it don't use it. That and you're likely just scurrd to see the truth about your **** play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exsvarlast Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 why are ppl afraid of getting called out by some dumb dmg meter abuser? its not like you have to play with these ppl more than once? ignore them and move on. unless you dont want to be held accountable for your poor performance, i dont see any reason not to use a log tracking tool in game which helps more than most ppl seemed to believe. its either your first mmo or you sit on the bench most of the time on your last one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Englefield Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) And that's actually why we think you're a bad player. Good players know you need analytical tools to be able to fine-tune your performance in any activity. Bads "wing it". There's a part of me that wants to see a meter in some form, it helps me improve my own performance. I used them all the time in that other game. But then I see elitist fools like this and realise how bad these tools can actually be for the game. Out of those in this thread that are pro meters some of you have made good arguments that I'd agree with, but some of you are exactly the people I would rather avoid in game and in life. Some of you are actually proving the point of the opposition. Edited February 14, 2012 by Englefield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulgram Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 DPS meters only show "ideal" DPS with character's current gear/skills. They show nothing about how good/bad the said player is putting said DPS into practical use, not to mention that no DPS meter shows how good/bad the player in question is with teamplay overall. Who cares about good use of interrupts, who cares about healing, who cares about being a good organizer and overall good and friendly team player, what matters is that my DPS is bigger than yours. Not sure what the hell you've been used to in the past, but the most important information I've gotten from WoL in the past is exactly the kind of information that you think is devalued. Interrupts, dispels, trinket use and dozens of other key metrics can be measured in other games. Effective DPS is a small part of the value of combat logs. Sounds like you've had some painful PuG experiences? Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimnano Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Facts: Raiding blindly is inefficient. Combat logs would allow for performance analysis. Stat weights (EP) could be determined. Performance could be optimized. Assumption: A lot of endgame players are slightly OCD about performance optimization because we want to explore all the content and perform as best we can. Analogy: Picking a stock based on long-term performance vs choosing a stock at random or via anecdotal evidence. Conclusion: Attempting to raid at peak performance without a combat log is terribly annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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