Combat Logs are coming! Damage meters & analysis soon to follow!

[Israful]

Keep the phrase "tongue in cheek" in mind

 

Cpt Bioware: "Lt NoAddons, i want you to secure that village over there"

 

Lt No Addons: "Yes Sir! I will assemble my men, recon the enemy positions, probe for weakness, formulate and execute a plan of attack to secure the objective sir!"

 

Cpt Bioware: "Carry on soldier"

 

In walks Lt NeedsAddons......

 

Cpt Bioware: "Lt NeedsAddons, I want you to secure that enemy held hill over there."

 

Lt NeedsAddons: "Yes Sir, but first I will need tanks, artillery forward observers, Close Air Support, SAT recon pictures, signal intell and the kitchen sink from the battalion mess hall."

 

Cpt Bioware: raises his eyebrows at Lt NeedsAddons

 

Lt NeedsAddons: "Also sir, once I have the support I need I will report that the missions you give me are too easy"

 

Cpt Bioware: frowning and crossing his arms......

 

Lt NeedsAddons: "And Sir, if I dont get the support I need I will resign my comission, take my ball and go home"

 

Cpt Bioware: /facepalm.........

 

[Battyone]

I would argue that yes, the raiding community began a decline around the same time. It hardly was so pronounced, though. But by Wrath it was obvious there was a set of "ok" builds and these were all you could have if you wished to raid.

 

How about in vanilla where DPS warriors and priests just didn't get to go on raids? There were single raiding _specs_ back then, you played that spec or you did not raid.

 

There will always be optimal, and there will always be raids that look for that, but there are also casual raiders, and casual raids. They may not down the latest and greatest content on the hardest difficulty but they also will not have strict minmaxing requirements. I agree those raids can exist without finding the "most effective" way to play a class.

 

Some of us thrive on the numbers, and want to minmax till we are sure we are running at 115%, and I feel like we should not be denied that opportunity, especially since what I've seen of just _hard mode_ shows how well/tightly tuned those fights are. I want to raid nightmare, I do not want to spend 40hrs/week bashing my head into it, so my raid will be strongly encouraged to perform to their best, and to accept criticism and feedback in getting there. Parseable logs give me a tool to help my raid as a whole.

 

I am sorry for the people who got hurt/burned/scared by jerks who use meters to bring them down, but honestly if you're honest with yourself you will find a guild of people that match your attitude and will have more fun playing with then than forcing yourself to be something your not in order to be at the best of the best or get the hardest kills in the game. (Or fail, burnout, or get called out.)

[Septro]

Holy drama batman over measuring DPS. If you don't like them, don't use them or group with ppl who do or by all means don't try and join a raiding/competitive guild.

 

See how easy that was and you don't even have to get worked up and slit your wrists over it.

[Battyone]

So if I understand you correctly we could limit the damagemeter to only measure raidgroups and guildgroups so normal people doesn't have to deal with it, yes please.

 

It has always been that way, at least in my guilds and in raids I ran. I can not stress how up to the players this is, and without cross realm LFG we are known people so it's up to us to blacklist/stop grouping with the people that abuse them in 4mans. I don't like petty meter squabbles, and frankly recount lies. (It's so easy to trick the meters to be the highest DPS number but have the lowest effective DPS when it comes time to look at World of Logs. Not to mention important metrics like interrupts, overhealing, mana regen management, damage taken (and more importantly if it was avoidable or unavoidable.))

 

Let me give you another quick story, this one is recent.

 

Back in Firelands there was a boss called Lord Rhyolith. He spawned volcanoes that you had to walk him onto, some of those volcanoes stacked a dot on the raid that increased fire damage. The entire raid wiped and the raid leader was about to start tearing into us, until I went to WoL and pointed out that we all had huge stacks of the DOT from the wrong volcanoes (The ones not active) getting stepped on by the boss, and that his unavoidable fire damage was what killed us, not standing in fire or failing a mechanic.

 

Without parseable logs that wipe would have been on my (and my ranged DPS) head, instead we corrected the steering issue and killed next attempt.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Battyone

[AHierophant]

Oh that's cute. Really stop trying to justify the fact you willingly waste other peoples time. The game isn't there to be played how you like it, the fact the developers wish to add dps meters proves this. You're a minority you're going to have to either deal with it or move on.

 

But I do not waste other people's time. I do very well, and the groups I play in succeed with very little trouble. I am not a drag on my group.

 

You're trying to say that the addition of damage meters is only applied to people doing horrendously bad compared to a min/maxer. I think you are misrepresenting what really happens - the damage meter, and the builds resulting from it, are used to justify discriminating against a player for having one small difference. Having one point out of place becomes as big of a crime as having half of them out of place.

 

I could deal with this if it was simply a difference of opinion. To each their own, and I would doubt our paths would cross much since I don't play in top-of-the-line guilds. But it morphs into a type of inquisition where people go out of their way to reform players they see doing it "wrong". Just go to WoW's forums and see where people go to look at other's skill distribution and then try to get them back to the holy path.

[AHierophant]

How about in vanilla where DPS warriors and priests just didn't get to go on raids? There were single raiding _specs_ back then, you played that spec or you did not raid.

 

There will always be optimal, and there will always be raids that look for that, but there are also casual raiders, and casual raids. They may not down the latest and greatest content on the hardest difficulty but they also will not have strict minmaxing requirements. I agree those raids can exist without finding the "most effective" way to play a class.

 

Some of us thrive on the numbers, and want to minmax till we are sure we are running at 115%, and I feel like we should not be denied that opportunity, especially since what I've seen of just _hard mode_ shows how well/tightly tuned those fights are. I want to raid nightmare, I do not want to spend 40hrs/week bashing my head into it, so my raid will be strongly encouraged to perform to their best, and to accept criticism and feedback in getting there. Parseable logs give me a tool to help my raid as a whole.

 

I am sorry for the people who got hurt/burned/scared by jerks who use meters to bring them down, but honestly if you're honest with yourself you will find a guild of people that match your attitude and will have more fun playing with then than forcing yourself to be something your not in order to be at the best of the best or get the hardest kills in the game. (Or fail, burnout, or get called out.)

 

I know, and I've never disagreed that the tools were useless. They're not. I use similar tools at work all the time to test viability of certain systems.

 

We're at an impasse, though. I think that the meters do more harm than good, as people can't use them responsibly. I can minimize my exposure to it by being around like-minded folks, which I do already, but I hope it doesn't become a dominating issue like it has in WoW. You feel they can, which isn't altogether unreasonable, by the way. We'll just have to wait and see. I hope I'm wrong.

[Battyone]

I know, and I've never disagreed that the tools were useless. They're not. I use similar tools at work all the time to test viability of certain systems.

 

We're at an impasse, though. I think that the meters do more harm than good, as people can't use them responsibly. I can minimize my exposure to it by being around like-minded folks, which I do already, but I hope it doesn't become a dominating issue like it has in WoW. You feel they can, which isn't altogether unreasonable, by the way. We'll just have to wait and see. I hope I'm wrong.

 

I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying, and I feel strongly that at least as long as dungeon runs are single server people will gain their reputation and eventually it will be known to group or not to group with someone.

 

I hope you are wrong too, and for what it's worth I respect your opinion, and personally would be happy with just logs and a WoL-esq site and no real time meters, they're just a distraction anyway, I never have them showing and if we wipe I'm more likely to look @ WoL than Recount (or at least I was back when I raided in WoW). Much easier to digest the data and look at action-by-action how it fell apart as opposed to just summary numbers and some rather worthless graphing.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Battyone

[Samlin]

But I do not waste other people's time. I do very well, and the groups I play in succeed with very little trouble. I am not a drag on my group.

 

You're trying to say that the addition of damage meters is only applied to people doing horrendously bad compared to a min/maxer. I think you are misrepresenting what really happens - the damage meter, and the builds resulting from it, are used to justify discriminating against a player for having one small difference. Having one point out of place becomes as big of a crime as having half of them out of place.

 

I could deal with this if it was simply a difference of opinion. To each their own, and I would doubt our paths would cross much since I don't play in top-of-the-line guilds. But it morphs into a type of inquisition where people go out of their way to reform players they see doing it "wrong". Just go to WoW's forums and see where people go to look at other's skill distribution and then try to get them back to the holy path.

 

I plainly stated that I don't kick people because of dps differences as long as it's possible to hit the dps requirement (given there is a dps requirement).

 

- I'm not a min/maxer (mainly because I can't be bothered farming the gold to do so).

- I'm not a hardcore raider.

- I often go unusual specs because it is more fun.

 

This doesn't mean the dps meter is a bad idea, and just because you want to play one way it doesn't mean people who do want to do things properly should be stopped.

 

I respect you opinion and I am a lot like you in many respects but blaming dps meters for the downfall of an MMO is at best irrational extrapolation, at worst it's just baseless speculation.

[FerrusPA]

Oh no! It's a "Hardcore Gamer" conspiracy! They want to ruin our fun!

[Ghaiana]

As I see it, I'm glad they didn't introduce damage meters, lfg tools etc at launch. If you read the forums, there is no agreement between the players even if they need it or even want it. So a discussion is in its place before implementing those features.

[GoldPush]

We're at an impasse, though. I think that the meters do more harm than good, as people can't use them responsibly. I can minimize my exposure to it by being around like-minded folks, which I do already, but I hope it doesn't become a dominating issue like it has in WoW. You feel they can, which isn't altogether unreasonable, by the way. We'll just have to wait and see. I hope I'm wrong.

I have to ask but I cannot see it, what harm can it possibly do?

[lmpervious]

But I do not waste other people's time. I do very well, and the groups I play in succeed with very little trouble. I am not a drag on my group.

 

You're trying to say that the addition of damage meters is only applied to people doing horrendously bad compared to a min/maxer. I think you are misrepresenting what really happens - the damage meter, and the builds resulting from it, are used to justify discriminating against a player for having one small difference. Having one point out of place becomes as big of a crime as having half of them out of place.

 

I could deal with this if it was simply a difference of opinion. To each their own, and I would doubt our paths would cross much since I don't play in top-of-the-line guilds. But it morphs into a type of inquisition where people go out of their way to reform players they see doing it "wrong". Just go to WoW's forums and see where people go to look at other's skill distribution and then try to get them back to the holy path.

 

I'm not seeing the problem. If you don't join top of the line guilds, then you don't have to worry about them giving you crap about your DPS, unless it is VERY bad. I would know because I was in quite a few different mid level guilds on my server, and even when people were doing extremely poor, they weren't called out publicly on it, but they were asked to improve.

 

If you think THAT is a bad thing, then I don't know what to tell you. If 24 people (in the case of WoW) want to down a boss, and someone is holding everyone back, then it is fair to everyone that the 25th person try to improve.

 

On the other hand if you are claiming everyone is arguing over someone being slightly below another person in DPS, then just join another guild. You are blaming a tool, when you should blame how the people use the tool instead.

 

DPS meters are a tool for people to use, and it essential for top level guilds to optimize their characters and performance. On the other hand, it doesn't have to be used as strictly by people in lower level guilds, if at all. I don't see the problem.

 

Once again, don't blame the tool, blame the people who misuse it. And blame yourself if you just sit there when people are arguing over DPS in a low level guild instead of trying to reason with them, or going to another guild if it comes down to it.

[AHierophant]

I plainly stated that I don't kick people because of dps differences as long as it's possible to hit the dps requirement (given there is a dps requirement).

 

- I'm not a min/maxer (mainly because I can't be bothered farming the gold to do so).

- I'm not a hardcore raider.

- I often go unusual specs because it is more fun.

 

This doesn't mean the dps meter is a bad idea, and just because you want to play one way it doesn't mean people who do want to do things properly should be stopped.

 

I respect you opinion and I am a lot like you in many respects but blaming dps meters for the downfall of an MMO is at best irrational extrapolation, at worst it's just baseless speculation.

 

Perhaps so, but I've only played one game where damage meters were so widely used and they were a net negative. Other games surely have them, but never gained the same prevalence. Going on this one example and doubting much has changed in people since then, I could easily see the same thing occurring.

[MetallicaRulez]

Hopefully, the combat log will only show your data, so you can only see your own dps. Personal parsers are beneficial tools. Group meters, do more harm than good.

 

In the hands of idiots and immature children, they do.

 

In the hands of an adult with a brain, being able to compare your ability usage, damage output/intake, and crit rates are very beneficial to improving your own play.

[FerrusPA]

I have to ask but I cannot see it, what harm can it possibly do?

 

The Anti-Meter faction always states ominous "detrimental effects on the community" since apparently meters automatically turn everyone into a DPS-whoring 13 year old.

[Skeptical]

I hate to break it to you but that doesn't mean they are adding in damage meters. There were no specifics mentioned and nothing about addons mentioned at all. The only thing that was addressed was the combat log.

[Ituhata]

I really don't care one way or the other. All it can do is help me refine my rotation, and my guild members don't have a hard-on for perfection. My problem with it is what it will turn this game into down the road, which is just another spreadsheet online. Min-maxing means you're not playing the game to enjoy what is has to offer, you're just there to win and wave your digital ***** around. For anyone that thinks that means something, I feel sorry for you, son.

[Battyone]

I really don't care one way or the other. All it can do is help me refine my rotation, and my guild members don't have a hard-on for perfection. My problem with it is what it will turn this game into down the road, which is just another spreadsheet online. Min-maxing means you're not playing the game to enjoy what is has to offer, you're just there to win and wave your digital ***** around. For anyone that thinks that means something, I feel sorry for you, son.

 

How can you say minmaxing is not playing the game to enjoy what it has to offer? That's like saying overclocking is not enjoying the computer you purchased for what it had to offer. Or *insert car analogy since I don't know **** about cars*.

 

Some people seriously enjoy deep theorycraft and numbers games, as always it will be optional but just because you do not see the joy in it does not mean that there is no joy to be had.

[Skeelol]

I hate to break it to you but that doesn't mean they are adding in damage meters. There were no specifics mentioned and nothing about addons mentioned at all. The only thing that was addressed was the combat log.

 

I hate to break it to you but combat log means damage meters.

 

Carry on.

[AHierophant]

I'm not seeing the problem. If you don't join top of the line guilds, then you don't have to worry about them giving you crap about your DPS, unless it is VERY bad. I would know because I was in quite a few different mid level guilds on my server, and even when people were doing extremely poor, they weren't called out publicly on it, but they were asked to improve.

 

If you think THAT is a bad thing, then I don't know what to tell you. If 24 people (in the case of WoW) want to down a boss, and someone is holding everyone back, then it is fair to everyone that the 25th person try to improve.

 

On the other hand if you are claiming everyone is arguing over someone being slightly below another person in DPS, then just join another guild. You are blaming a tool, when you should blame how the people use the tool instead.

 

DPS meters are a tool for people to use, and it essential for top level guilds to optimize their characters and performance. On the other hand, it doesn't have to be used as strictly by people in lower level guilds, if at all. I don't see the problem.

 

Once again, don't blame the tool, blame the people who misuse it. And blame yourself if you just sit there when people are arguing over DPS in a low level guild instead of trying to reason with them, or going to another guild if it comes down to it.

 

It's not so much that people argue over tiny changes in DPS. It's not really the existence of the DPS meter. It's the generalizations that spring from them. People already in game ask "What's the best X?" and they'll copy whatever build does best damage under idealized conditions, to the letter.

 

Then it becomes an inquisition to bring all the rest of the Gunslingers to X. X is just plain better, even if it is only 2% better assuming perfect inputs. Anyone who refuses to use X clearly is a bad who wants carried, or likes to suck, or has no clue how to play.

 

It does happen quite a bit in WoW, and worse of all, it comes unbidden. Just join that game with a slightly different build and play a dungeon, I can promise you someone will try to reform you.

 

Again, I hope the SW community is mature enough that this becomes an unfounded fear - this thread gives me some measure of hope. I doubt I would be getting the adult responses elsewhere that I've gotten here.

[Skeelol]

I'm sorry, do you feel the trees in SWToR actually give you a choice? I've never seen anything more straightforward than this.

 

I mean some of the tiers even have only 5 points and all relevant to pve. It's like it's speccing itself for you just in case you don't know what to pick.

 

1st tree 1 spec.. 2nd tree 2nd spec... 3rd tree pvp.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Skeelol

[Appletaz]

I am all for combat logs. I really want to know what it was that one-shot me, or what I threw out there that did all that damage. It is interesting for me and helps me to understand the game a bit better.

 

I am not for DPS meters. Everyone sings their praises, but all I have seen them used for is to abuse other players.

 

For those of you that said something along the lines of "one person killing wrong thing, 15 people suffer" oh puleez. You just want a reason to have the power to kick someone. You don't want to have to deal with things getting a bit chaotic. If you are so determined to control your environment to such an extent, you should only play with people you trust and have confidence in their "abilities". On the other hand, with the abuse of the dps meter, you probably don't have many of those.

[JimG]

Further, a combat log lets you get more information on the enemies you're fighting. Case in point: We were doing Mandalorian Raiders yesterday. The fight can be kind of tough if you don't have a healer who is specced for it. A combat log would make it very easy to look at the log to see which of the guys should be killed first, second, third, and fourth based on their damage dealt. Without it you're pretty much playing guesswork.

 

To me, that's a horrible reason for a combat log. Replace trial and error and developing creative strategy with have a log tell me the best way to run a flashpoint or operation? That just turns the game into end-game farming. It's more about how you can make operations as fast and low-risk as possible so they can be farmed repeatedly.

[Scorpid]

Great..... I hope to god they do not allow mods then for such tools like a Damage Meter.

 

The worst thing that could happen is to have a DPS Meter in SWTOR please ffs do not allow this!

 

This is not WoW keep the DPS Meters away from SWTOR!

Edited December 24, 2011 by Scorpid

[Skeelol]

Great..... I hope to god they do not allow mods then for such tools like a Damage Meter.

 

The worst thing that could happen is to have a DPS Meter in SWTOR please ffs do not allow this!

 

This is not WoW keep the DPS Meters away from SWTOR!

 

Sorry, wrong game if you thought you could get endgame raid gear by pressing random buttons without noone noticing.