Combat Logs are coming! Damage meters & analysis soon to follow!

[Gunju]

Speaking for myself, this is great news. Just another useful tool to help make myself become a better player.

 

Thanks, really looking forward to it.

[dipstik]

why did this get bumped... apparently this dod not make it into 1.01 or 1.1, so it was not VERY HIGH PRIORITY.

[Blackardin]

Once a game is balanced around the expectation that you are using mods/meters anyone not using them its pretty much screwed.

 

There in lies the fallacy with combat addons. They do not, in any way, make the game easier. They, in fact, make the game more difficult, more tedious, and more time consuming.

 

As was admitted by the Wow Developers, content was formed around the use of mods, not the other way around. In short, addons trivialize content. Content is ramped up to meet the mods. Mods become more refined, game ramps up again. It is exactly why Wow spiraled out of control, to a raid game of completely unforgiving proportions, that required extensive "out of game" research, addons, mods to accomplish.

 

 

....and why so many burnt out and ended up here.

 

Short term, it looks like a win. Long term, depending on how they handle it, it could be devastating to the game.

[Blackardin]

Well, um, kind of.

 

Its kind of like the NBA. If you aren't naturally talented or tall, then you probably shouldn't play with those athletes. It doesn't mean you can't play basketball, it just means you can't play basketball with Shaq when you are 5 foot 6 and can't run, dribble or shoot.

 

If you don't posses the skills necessary to properly contribute to an ops group, then you probably shouldn't play with that ops group. Etc, etc.

 

The only thing is, people are asking for a way to be able to distinguish who they want to play with. If Bioware doesn't provide a way, then those players are most likely going to leave the game. Now, while that may sound like a great idea to you, you need to ask yourself if Bioware is willing to alienate a large part of their playerbase in order to protect the ones who aren't as talented - and guess what? They already said they weren't.

 

Actually, to the contrary, the hard core player that insists on the type of game that addons developer are the minority, not the majority.

 

Once again, using WoW as an example, they made that exact choice. The main demographic (the casual player, to casual raider) began to migrate away from the game in great numbers. They are attempting now, with hurried attempts, to eb that flow of players. They just recently, in addition to completely reformatting raids, nerfed Hard mode content.

[Robertbullnelson]

I like SWTOR but I will cancel my membership if I hear, LFM minimum 2279 Req. pst.

[ferroz]

In short, addons trivialize content.

it doesn't actually... it just makes it easy to spot trivial content; the content doesn't get any more trivial.

 

I like SWTOR but I will cancel my membership if I hear, LFM minimum 2279 Req. pst.

LFM minimum 2279 Req. pst. Edited January 20, 2012 by ferroz

[JonnyFS]

Addons are for newbs lol.

[Innocentone]

I am pretty sure that they want to keep there shareholders/investors happy. Adding dps meters could jeopardize there profit margins . That would most likely have investors upset. Not to mention risks of loosing potential future investors. I like the game don't get me wrong. But after dealing with so much RL drama not to mention stress at work. If I have to deal with drama in game over dps meters being used. I would gladly spend my month sub on something else. Drama is the last thing anyone deserves while playing an mmo specially one that you pay a montly sub to. I play for enjoyment not drama.

[ColonelKer-Nal]

Why are you afraid of metric evaluation tools?

 

Quite simply, the devs will blindly look at THEIR metrics after the min/max raiders go at the Operations for a bit, and they'll tune the Operations to where you HAVE to use them. This will pretty much rule casual players out of Operations.

 

I already have one job, if I need another it better be a paying job. Gaming is a hobby, a leisure time activity. I'll worry about what I accomplish in the real world, when I'm gaming I'm here to relax. And that's not to say I don't enjoy some challenges in my gaming. That's is to say that I don't play a game to mash buttons 1, 4, 7, 3, 9, 1, 7, 3, 1, 7, 3, 9, 1, 4, 7, 3, 9 in that order for 90 minutes. Or whatever the Holy Rotation for my AC is.

[SkyAid]

I already have one job, if I need another it better be a paying job.

Strange, I share the SAME sentinment..and that is EXACTLY why I want a dps meter. In our eternity vault raid yesterday, we wiped several times on the second boss with the enrage happening at 7% health on the last island. Not a healing problem (everyone alive and at near full health), Not a tanking problem, but a big dps problem....but we really don't know who since we _dont_ have a dps meter. It turned from FUN into a painful JOB for me.

 

We got frustrated, four of us in the guild left the raid and cleared the new Rakhghoul flashpoint on hard, breezing through it with just a wipe on the bonus boss. It is easy to see a dps problem in a 4-man, but in an 8/16 man it is nearly impossible, without a dps meter.

 

I tell you what ? You don't have a DPS meter ? Fine..I can live with that, but ONLY if you tell Bioware to remove the enrage timer on their bosses. With nearly all bosses on an enrage timer, a DPS meter is an absolute must if one wants to finish content effectively.

 

The other way is to have training dummies...

Edited January 22, 2012 by SkyAid

[Dadarkerside]

TL;DR

Combat meters for healers are awesome and you should want your healers having them.

 

 

 

 

Combat logs are good. As a healer it is mandatory for me.

 

Two stats need to be tracked by healers. 1-Which heal spells you use most, 2-which ones were over healed.

 

Having dark heal as your #1 is horrible. The hpf is poor compared to other spells and will have you oof before the fight begins. If I notice dark heal being my top heal, I have to adjust accordingly. Did I really need to cast dark heal that many times? Were people standing in stuff that warranted me to heal that fast? Either way, knowing what was tops can go a long way to indentying a problem in the healer or the group.

 

Overhealing is our other worst enemy. Say Innervate is your top used healing spell. Great, its hpf is the best. What if it's also your #1 overhealed spell? That's a waste of force that could be used for other spells. Once again, being able to know this during/after fights is key to allowing a healer to utitlize his force to the best of his ability.

 

I hear all this talk about dps mining and maxing but what about healers? It ruins the game experience because instead of having fun you are using rotations. Fine, I get that, have your fun. But do you truly want healers playing with you who haven't understood the concept of which healing spells is best to used depending on the situaiton.? Do you want a healer who is oof because he spammed dark heal? On trash? Yeah yeah you can have fights drag on for hours with poor dps. YOu can even hit enrage timers because of poor dps. This isn't an issue because obviously people would rather have a fight take forever than to know how to effectively defeat the enemy. But when your group wipes constantly due to, well healers not knowing how they are doing then everyone loses there.

 

I've only rarely played with healers as I am one myself. The times I've had have left me face palming. I don't know how dps/tanks can trust healers without really knowing if they are good. I think we can all agree that if there is one person on your team that should be good at their job, it should be the healer. Meters allow healers to be better at what they do, which is preventing 1 hour long flash points turn into frustating 4 hour wipe feasts.

 

I understand you dont want meters for all, but at least give us personal meters. If you don't care about your performance, don't look at the meter. I know I will be looking at mine. Not just for my benefit but for yours too.

[radersdad]

It boils down to this. Call it "I already have a job" or "creates drama" or whatever you want the bottom line is a vocal minority of folks wearing the magic underwear want players who use addons, logs, etc to leave the game. What they fail to realize is that ToR will not become a fairyland paradise of like-minded fanbois revelling in the freedom from the min-maxers pushing content. It will become a ghost town of clueless clickers wth empty zones, empty GTN, and no competent/geared raiders for ops.

 

EA/BioWare wants millions of people to sub to this game and if providing an optional feature that makes content pushers and ops leaders happy they will get it. The only real question at this point is whether it will come soon enough to prevent them all from wandering off to other games. If someone felt bad one time in a different MMO because they got kicked from a raid (for not dpsing/healing/etc enough) I understand and sympathize. However, let's not use that as a reason to prevent those features from being available to people who want to use them.

[Backbones]

You can keep your damage meters and combat logs.

 

I, too, hate information.

 

Wait, that doesn't make any sense.

[KrackenOne]

LMAO thread started in Nov of 2009....HAHAHAHHAH soon combat logs are coming....HAHAHAHAAAAA.

[Backbones]

lmao thread started in nov of 2009....hahahahhah soon combat logs are coming....hahahahaaaaa.

 

12.21.2011 , 08:30 pm

[Navakai]

It boils down to this. Call it "I already have a job" or "creates drama" or whatever you want the bottom line is a vocal minority of folks wearing the magic underwear want players who use addons, logs, etc to leave the game. What they fail to realize is that ToR will not become a fairyland paradise of like-minded fanbois revelling in the freedom from the min-maxers pushing content. It will become a ghost town of clueless clickers wth empty zones, empty GTN, and no competent/geared raiders for ops.

 

EA/BioWare wants millions of people to sub to this game and if providing an optional feature that makes content pushers and ops leaders happy they will get it. The only real question at this point is whether it will come soon enough to prevent them all from wandering off to other games. If someone felt bad one time in a different MMO because they got kicked from a raid (for not dpsing/healing/etc enough) I understand and sympathize. However, let's not use that as a reason to prevent those features from being available to people who want to use them.

 

This is 100% correct, and I could not have written it better myself.

[origional]

I, too, hate information.

 

Wait, that doesn't make any sense.

 

 

Its not the information thats the problem, its how people use that information. As soon as you have dps meters you are going to get people being kicked from groups and excluded from game play by all the gear score scumbags out there.

[face_hindu]

Its not the information thats the problem, its how people use that information. As soon as you have dps meters you are going to get people being kicked from groups and excluded from game play by all the gear score scumbags out there.

 

Yep, except instead of "gear score scumbags", I would say "competent players".

 

 

Cake is a lie; there is only pie.

[thecodont]

i was hoping they wouldnt turn this game into wow.

[face_hindu]

i was hoping they wouldnt turn this game into wow.

 

lol obviously you haven't been paying attention for the last few years

 

 

Cake is a lie; there is only pie.

[areto]

I love information I drink it all up like a milkshake, the more the better imo, isn't that what this whole information age thing has been about?

 

The people who don't want information are similar to the christians who excommunicated Galileo.

[Backbones]

Its not the information thats the problem, its how people use that information. As soon as you have dps meters you are going to get people being kicked from groups and excluded from game play by all the gear score scumbags out there.

 

Don't suck at the game and you will not suffer from this.

 

That is to say, if you have nothing to hide, then a combat log or recount will not hurt you. You're essentially saying "I need censorship to protect me!"

 

I'd rather know who to kick out of a group than have to cancel a group/flashpoint/op altogether because someone is dropping the ball and it's impossible to know who it is.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Backbones

[Ratajack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AHierophant

I don't want to rebuff every skill inquisitor out there any more than I want to tell every Democrat "no" to switching parties. It becomes a tedious and tiresome routine of constantly having people trying to modify your behavior because they think X is the only way to go. Especially when they have no personal experience in grouping with me and assume I am a wayward soul that needs their divine touch.

Wow your whole contribution to this thread needs to be submitted to a psychologist.

 

People are trying to help you because there is a MATHEMATICALLY proven BEST way to do things, and you are pretty much telling them "lol no this way is best cause of the funzors I has" Then you demand they group with you, they assume you're just new and try to teach you, and you probably yell at them and call them elitist jerks. Then you get kicked, and somehow you end up blaming the dps meter, liek 'damn if they weren't able to see my dps I wouldn't have been kicked, damn meters'

 

RPGs are about numbers, its a number based combat system, when you have numbers, you have math. When you have math, there is a right way and a wrong way. If you want to go pretend your a jedi and have fun and just make **** up as you go along, go LARP. Just don't tell me and everyone else here that we aren't allowed to see the math behind the game, because someone once hurt your precious feelings because you were being a bad.

 

 

"a right way and a wrong way"

 

This is exactly the attitude that causes people to be worried about the effect that damage meters may/will have on the game. People who live by the "MATHEMATICALLY proven" specs, rotations, etc. generally have very little, if any, willingness to even bother to try accepting anyone who does not fit their exact model of MATHEMATICALLY perfect.

 

From reading your post, it seems as if you fall into this category. If a person is not using the "perfect" spec, they are doing it the wrong way and "being a bad".

 

While I would prefer that this game remain damage meter/combat log free, if there MUST be some form of visual feedback, let it be personal, and not group/raid wide.

[Ratajack]

We plan on running raids at 50. We plan on handing out loot after these raids. I do not see a way to fairly divide this loot without a combat log to tell who is doing what.

 

This is not about measuring to see who has the most HPS or DPS. Our guild is not about that. However, we do need to be able to see 1. who showed up to a raid and whether or not they remained for the entire raid. and 2. What they were doing during the raid.

 

For those who say "it's only 8 people", this includes standbys, folks who stand by in case of a power outage or ISP failure, cat knocked over my beer stuff that happens randomly.

 

Not only this, but it's good to be able to SEE something after it's occurred, as opposed to having your eyes glued to the screen trying to catch it. This is a good thing. People who think that it will affect them adversely in the major, it probably won't.

 

 

How is a damage meter/combat log going to help you keep track of who was on stand-by? You do not need a combat log or damage meter to write names of people on stand-by down on a paper next to you. It should also be obvious who is actually in the instance raiding, or who leaves the instance early.

[radersdad]

"a right way and a wrong way"

 

This is exactly the attitude that causes people to be worried about the effect that damage meters may/will have on the game. People who live by the "MATHEMATICALLY proven" specs, rotations, etc. generally have very little, if any, willingness to even bother to try accepting anyone who does not fit their exact model of MATHEMATICALLY perfect.

 

From reading your post, it seems as if you fall into this category. If a person is not using the "perfect" spec, they are doing it the wrong way and "being a bad".

 

While I would prefer that this game remain damage meter/combat log free, if there MUST be some form of visual feedback, let it be personal, and not group/raid wide.

 

As a raid leader I do not have to raise the issue unless there is a problem. EJ specs and theorycrafting help players that struggle reaching their characters potential. Someone has it figured out already and plays well already? Meters/logs/spec/etc never come up.

 

Joe or Jill Riader might actually play better using a non-standard spec due to gear/playstyle/latency/whatever. How will we ever know without a decent method of measuring? Reading tea leaves? Magic 8 ball?

 

An optional feature that so many people want will help playerbase retention. Biodrone fanboi lunatics can't comprehend that watching millions of players "go back to wow" is not a reason for celebration: their "true believer" utopia will last a few days then EA/BioWare will stop spending resources on a game played by a thousand instead of a million.

 

If your fanboi paradise is so important the only way to realistically make it happen is each one of you sign up for a thousand accounts. Fifteen grand a month from each of you and EA/bioWare might not need the million or so players you are so desperately trying to drive away.