No Love for Windu

[TyboJames]

Quoted for truth.

 

How about - It is a travesty how Plo Koon died.

Edited June 27, 2013 by TyboJames

[Aurbere]

I suppose...though I can't imaging splattering all over the ground to be very boss.

 

Aw, that's so true. He probable left a nice stain on the pavement. With the acronym BAMF scrawled in... whatever remained of him.

[Aurbere]

How about - It is a travesty how Plo Koon died.

 

It is.

[LadyKulvax]

I suppose...though I can't imaging splattering all over the ground to be very boss.

 

He was already dead, so kinda doesn't matter.

[Wolfninjajedi]

He was already dead, so kinda doesn't matter.

 

True, true..

[Beniboybling]

Sorry Beni but I can't agree, he got put down and out because Windu was a better tactician in close combat, THEN Anakin walked in.

So Mace Windu is a better better close combat tactician than Sidious? I just can't see it. Sidious is the better duelist, and he's smart. Even if Windu was a the superior tactician Sidious wouldn't fall for such a move. He's smarter than that.

 

Also Anakin walked in just as Sidious was scrambling away from Windu's lightsaber. Far too much of a coincidence. Then he plays the whole 'I'm weak' act. I see it as perfectly logical to assume that Sidious sensed the presence of Anakin (which I believe the novel he did) decided that to be in the best position to turn Anakin to the dark side he had to be in a weak position, let Sidious push him to the edge, and was disarmed because of it. Then Anakin comes in just in time for Anakin to see Sidious scrambling away from Windu's lightsaber - unarmed. This made Windu look the clear aggressor. In fact Anakin had no reason to believe a battle occurred at all.

 

But anyway, I always got the impression that Sidious was in control of the battle when I first saw it (Sidious being Sidious) but

convinced me Sidious threw the last part - and he explains it better than I do.

 

But this doesn't diminish Windu's ability in anyway, Sidious was clearly going all out, no holds barred. And technically Windu did win the fight.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Priori is implying that it is the undeniable truth.

Pretty much it. Its logically impossible to deny that Sidious is smarter than Windu.

[Beniboybling]

I suppose...though I can't imaging splattering all over the ground to be very boss.

Which is why Kreia is the best - even at the end, she wanted to die!

[fellblade]

So Mace Windu is a better better close combat tactician than Sidious? I just can't see it. Sidious is the better duelist, and he's smart. Even if Windu was a the superior tactician Sidious wouldn't fall for such a move. He's smarter than that.

 

Also Anakin walked in just as Sidious was scrambling away from Windu's lightsaber. Far too much of a coincidence. Then he plays the whole 'I'm weak' act. I see it as perfectly logical to assume that Sidious sensed the presence of Anakin (which I believe the novel he did) decided that to be in the best position to turn Anakin to the dark side he had to be in a weak position, let Sidious push him to the edge, and was disarmed because of it. Then Anakin comes in just in time for Anakin to see Sidious scrambling away from Windu's lightsaber - unarmed. This made Windu look the clear aggressor. In fact Anakin had no reason to believe a battle occurred at all.

 

But anyway, I always got the impression that Sidious was in control of the battle when I first saw it (Sidious being Sidious) but

convinced me Sidious threw the last part - and he explains it better than I do.

 

But this doesn't diminish Windu's ability in anyway, Sidious was clearly going all out, no holds barred. And technically Windu did win the fight.

 

Also From what I read in the Novel he definitely sensed Anakin's presence - Mace could sense fear in Sidious which made him press the attack - Only, the fear he actually felt was Sidious deliberately projecting Anakin's fear - to me it seems like Sidious was manipulating Mace into believing that Sidious was in genuine peril and not up to a deception - Perhaps Sidious did this step because of Mace's Shatterpoint ability which may make it harder to deceive him.

And I do Think that Sidious fought better vs Yoda - Quicker, Using a bit more agility, using Telekinetics and mixing in Lightning in more tactical bursts

 

In the DVD Commentary it says that Sidious Often fights within himself to Draw you in - but you are a Sucker if you think you have him beat.......

 

But Yes - I am probably one of those that think while Mace very Powerful, he is a tad overrated...

[Wolfninjajedi]

Also From what I read in the Novel he definitely sensed Anakin's presence - Mace could sense fear in Sidious which made him press the attack - Only, the fear he actually felt was Sidious deliberately projecting Anakin's fear - to me it seems like Sidious was manipulating Mace into believing that Sidious was in genuine peril and not up to a deception - Perhaps Sidious did this step because of Mace's Shatterpoint ability which may make it harder to deceive him.

And I do Think that Sidious fought better vs Yoda - Quicker, Using a bit more agility, using Telekinetics and mixing in Lightning in more tactical bursts

 

In the DVD Commentary it says that Sidious Often fights within himself to Draw you in - but you are a Sucker if you think you have him beat.......

 

But Yes - I am probably one of those that think while Mace very Powerful, he is a tad overrated...

 

Sidious= Master of the Darkside and Master Troll!

[VigDiath]

Mace Windu is one of the greatest lightsaber duelists of all time. I don't see a problem.

 

Also, I believe Shatterpoint would make a Windu fan out of anybody.

 

I'm glad you mentioned this book because it is one of my favorite SW books and my favorite on Mace Windu.

[Girdeux]

Windu owned Sidious in the duel, and its my opinion he wouldve won the battle against the lightning if Anakin never showed up. It was already said that Sidious was very close to exhausting himself and was close to melting his face off.

[LadyKulvax]

Windu owned Sidious in the duel, and its my opinion he wouldve won the battle against the lightning if Anakin never showed up. It was already said that Sidious was very close to exhausting himself and was close to melting his face off.

 

The novel which is G-canon (as a novelisation of the movie) contradicts your assessment, WIndu would've lost against his lightning in any occasion.

[Girdeux]

The novel which is G-canon (as a novelisation of the movie) contradicts your assessment, WIndu would've lost against his lightning in any occasion.

 

This is also G-canon

 

"These close up shots where Palpatine is getting the force lightning reflected back and he’s getting zapped, and the strain of all this exertion is what’s transforming him into the Emperor that we see later in Return of the Jedi..."

 

The novel contradicts the scene. Windus blade wasnt getting closer to his face, it was getting closer to Palpatines. Was Anakin there the entire time? No. Was Windu dead before he got flew out the window? No.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Girdeux

[Wolfninjajedi]

This is also G-canon

 

"These close up shots where Palpatine is getting the force lightning reflected back and he’s getting zapped, and the strain of all this exertion is what’s transforming him into the Emperor that we see later in Return of the Jedi..."

 

The novel contradicts the scene. Windus blade wasnt getting closer to his face, it was getting closer to Palpatines. Was Anakin there the entire time? No. Was Windu dead before he got flew out the window? No.

 

That isn't contradicting anything given in the novel states the lighting was also be turned back on him.

 

And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source. Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that loured from his hands only intensified. He fed the power with his pain.

 

If you watch the scene, Windu is clearly struggling against the Lighting regardless hence this...

 

"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny."

 

The bending of Windu's blade was just a small detail, but Windu was clearly struggling against the Lighting in that scene. So he was going to lose, Palps was just playing the weak old man card....how could he be weak if only seconds after Anakin cut Windu's hand off he goes from..

 

"I...I'm too weak...help."

 

then all of a sudden...

 

"POWER! UNLIMITED POWER!"

 

Also the novel states this too(abit differently but still the same.)

 

Palpatine roared back to his feet and lightning speared from the Sith Lord's hands and without his blade to catch it, the power of Palpatine's hate struck him full-on.

 

Yes...that clearly is showing the signs that Palpatine was actually weak against Windu.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Girdeux]

That isn't contradicting anything given in the novel states the lighting was also be turned back on him.

 

 

 

If you watch the scene, Windu is clearly struggling against the Lighting regardless hence this...

 

 

 

The bending of Windu's blade was just a small detail, but Windu was clearly struggling against the Lighting in that scene. So he was going to lose, Palps was just playing the weak old man card....how could he be weak if only seconds after Anakin cut Windu's hand off he goes from..

 

"I...I'm too weak...help."

 

then all of a sudden...

 

"POWER! UNLIMITED POWER!"

 

Also the novel states this too(abit differently but still the same.)

 

 

 

Yes...that clearly is showing the signs that Palpatine was actually weak against Windu.

 

Thats the original script. The scene was changed after Coppola, Spielberg and Howard convinced Lucas to change it. Was Anakin watching the fight the entire time? No. He only saw the end result of Palpatine on the floor, the novel completely contradicts the film on many occassions.

 

That's because Sidious was using his weakness to lure in Anakin. And obviously its easier to lightning someone after there is 0 resistance. Similar to benching 225 on the bar for reps, then benching nothing.

 

The novel also stated Windu destroyed Palpatines lightsaber which is impossible because its Lightsaber resistant. Does this happen in the movies? NO. Films > Novel.

 

I direct you to this thread and you can read through it yourself. http://boards.theforce.net/threads/official-thread-mace-windu-vs-darth-sidious-discussion-v3-0.22236958/

 

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/did-mace-windu-really-defeat-palpatine.50011931/

Edited June 28, 2013 by Girdeux

[Beniboybling]

I direct you to this thread and you can read through it yourself. http://boards.theforce.net/threads/official-thread-mace-windu-vs-darth-sidious-discussion-v3-0.22236958/

 

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/did-mace-windu-really-defeat-palpatine.50011931/

Read a few posts down this thread and found this:

Had Anakin not arrived however, I imagine that Sidious would still have come out on top, since there would be no reason for him to feign weakness and he could have blasted Mace's lightsaber out of his hands (if he can do it to Yoda, he can do it to Mace) and fried him.

 

Let's revisit the scene. One zap, one zap and the lightsaber of the Grand Master of the Jedi Order, the most powerful Jedi in galactic history up until that point, gone. Not even Vaapad could prevent Windu from suffering a similar fate. If Sidious had brought his full powers to bear, Windu would have died. The novel itself makes clear that Sidious' lightning was too much for him. Now you say that this contradicts the movies, but this is clearly not the case. See

Does it look like Windu is not struggling - who's the guy who is crying out in gosh darn pain? I'd say that lightsaber is pretty close to his face, closer to his face than Palpatine's.

 

Really the whole thing was an act. Sidious is too smart to be tactically outmaneuvered in any situation. This is the man who orchestrated the downfall of the Jedi Order and transformation of the Galactic Republic into a Galactic Empire. And don't tell me they are not compatible. A tactical mind is a tactical mind. Are we forgetting how Thrawn exploited and understood the tactics of his enemies through studying their art? Sidious was clearly feigning weaknesses, or are we to believe he just 'happened' to have his lightsaber knocked out of his hand so just as Anakin entered the room Sidious was scrambling away from Windu's lightsaber utterly defenseless. Just a coincidence right? Despite the fact that Sidious sensed Anakin's arrival and deliberately projected Anakin's fear to throw Windu off? Off what? The fact he threw the duel. I'm sure it was just a coincidence. Wait, what was that that Qui-Gon once said? "Our meeting was not a coincidence. Nothing happens by accident." Ah yes. I rest my case.

[Beniboybling]

Was Windu dead before he got flew out the window? No.

Well... he looked pretty dead to me.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Read a few posts down this thread and found this:

 

 

Let's revisit the scene. One zap, one zap and the lightsaber of the Grand Master of the Jedi Order, the most powerful Jedi in galactic history up until that point, gone. Not even Vaapad could prevent Windu from suffering a similar fate. If Sidious had brought his full powers to bear, Windu would have died. The novel itself makes clear that Sidious' lightning was too much for him. Now you say that this contradicts the movies, but this is clearly not the case. See

Does it look like Windu is not struggling - who's the guy who is crying out in gosh darn pain? I'd say that lightsaber is pretty close to his face, closer to his face than Palpatine's.

 

Really the whole thing was an act. Sidious is too smart to be tactically outmaneuvered in any situation. This is the man who orchestrated the downfall of the Jedi Order and transformation of the Galactic Republic into a Galactic Empire. And don't tell me they are not compatible. A tactical mind is a tactical mind. Are we forgetting how Thrawn exploited and understood the tactics of his enemies through studying their art? Sidious was clearly feigning weaknesses, or are we to believe he just 'happened' to have his lightsaber knocked out of his hand so just as Anakin entered the room Sidious was scrambling away from Windu's lightsaber utterly defenseless. Just a coincidence right? Despite the fact that Sidious sensed Anakin's arrival and deliberately projected Anakin's fear to throw Windu off? Off what? The fact he threw the duel. I'm sure it was just a coincidence. Wait, what was that that Qui-Gon once said? "Our meeting was not a coincidence. Nothing happens by accident." Ah yes. I rest my case.

 

I find that a bit lol worthy. The Force Lighting is being directed back into Palps face, and yet Mace seems to be the one in pain.

 

I also just realized, that moment with Anakin shouting "No!" and taking out his lightsaber and removing Windu's hand was just awesome, the movement in that was just so nice.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Girdeux]

Read a few posts down this thread and found this:

 

 

Let's revisit the scene. One zap, one zap and the lightsaber of the Grand Master of the Jedi Order, the most powerful Jedi in galactic history up until that point, gone. Not even Vaapad could prevent Windu from suffering a similar fate. If Sidious had brought his full powers to bear, Windu would have died. The novel itself makes clear that Sidious' lightning was too much for him. Now you say that this contradicts the movies, but this is clearly not the case. See

Does it look like Windu is not struggling - who's the guy who is crying out in gosh darn pain? I'd say that lightsaber is pretty close to his face, closer to his face than Palpatine's.

 

Really the whole thing was an act. Sidious is too smart to be tactically outmaneuvered in any situation. This is the man who orchestrated the downfall of the Jedi Order and transformation of the Galactic Republic into a Galactic Empire. And don't tell me they are not compatible. A tactical mind is a tactical mind. Are we forgetting how Thrawn exploited and understood the tactics of his enemies through studying their art? Sidious was clearly feigning weaknesses, or are we to believe he just 'happened' to have his lightsaber knocked out of his hand so just as Anakin entered the room Sidious was scrambling away from Windu's lightsaber utterly defenseless. Just a coincidence right? Despite the fact that Sidious sensed Anakin's arrival and deliberately projected Anakin's fear to throw Windu off? Off what? The fact he threw the duel. I'm sure it was just a coincidence. Wait, what was that that Qui-Gon once said? "Our meeting was not a coincidence. Nothing happens by accident." Ah yes. I rest my case.

 

Too bad this completely contradicts what Lucas said. Palpatine was TRYING to kill Windu but couldnt. Clearly Sidious wasnt in any pain when his face was being melted off.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Girdeux

[Beniboybling]

I find that a bit lol worthy. The Force Lighting is being directed back into Palps face, and yet Mace seems to be the one in pain.

I know, I'm also taking into account the 'mask' technique. Sidious wasn't harmed by his lightning in any way, it merely 'melted away' the Sith alchemy he had used to change his facial appearance.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I know, I'm also taking into account the 'mask' technique. Sidious wasn't harmed by his lightning in any way, it merely 'melted away' the Sith alchemy he had used to change his facial appearance.

 

Wasn't that disproven the whole mask thing? Unless its just never been brought up again as a point so....eh guess it hasn't.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Girdeux]

I know, I'm also taking into account the 'mask' technique. Sidious wasn't harmed by his lightning in any way, it merely 'melted away' the Sith alchemy he had used to change his facial appearance.

 

and ..........no.

 

"These close up shots where Palpatine is getting the force lightning reflected back and he’s getting zapped, and the strain of all this exertion is what’s transforming him into the Emperor that we see later in Return of the Jedi..."

[Aurbere]

Quotes from Lucas also say that Mace Windu overwhelms Palpatine.

[Beniboybling]

Too bad this completely contradicts what Lucas said. Palpatine was TRYING to kill Windu but couldnt. Clearly Sidious wasnt in any pain when his face was being melted off.

You seem to have completely misinterpreted the quote:

"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

 

Originally the reality was that Mace overpowered Palpatine, fair and square. But Lucas changed that so Sidious was feigning weakness in order to turn Anakin to the dark side by making Windu look the aggressor.