Official BC Progression Thread 2.2

[Regnar]

Hey all, finally found this post. I'm so happy.

 

REIGN downed Nightmare Dash last night. Unfortunately I was unaware of the screenshot requirements, i.e. inside the instance, probably because I have never seen this thread before . But I did take a screenshot of the chat log showing all 8 individuals achievement post as well as my own achievement in my legacy window. Those 2 photos will be uploaded in about 9 hours when I get home from work. I hope they count. If not when we do it again next week I will post the required photos.

 

We have also fully cleared:

8m/16m Story, Hard, Nightmare Mode Eternity Vault

8m/16m Story, Hard, Nightmare Mode Karagga's Palace

8m/16m Story and Hard Mode Explosive Conflict

8m/16m Story Mode Terror from Beyond

8m/16m Story Mode Scum & Villainy

8m/16m Story mode Toborro's

16m Hard Mode Toborro's (8 REIGN and 8 No More Raids)

 

Progression

8m Hard Mode Terror From Beyond: Writhing Horror and Dread Guards (Operator is proving to be difficult)

8m Hard and Nightmare Mode Scum & Villainy: Dash

 

I will start frapsing everything we do again so that I can pull screenshots from all of our runs.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Regnar

[SweetMegan]

Hey all, finally found this post. I'm so happy.

 

REIGN downed Nightmare Dash last night. Unfortunately I was unaware of the screenshot requirements, i.e. inside the instance, probably because I have never seen this thread before . But I did take a screenshot of the chat log showing all 8 individuals achievement post as well as my own achievement in my legacy window. Those 2 photos will be uploaded in about 9 hours when I get home from work. I hope they count. If not when we do it again next week I will post the required photos.

 

We have also fully cleared:

8m/16m Story, Hard, Nightmare Mode Eternity Vault

8m/16m Story, Hard, Nightmare Mode Karagga's Palace

8m/16m Story and Hard Mode Explosive Conflict

8m/16m Story Mode Terror from Beyond

8m/16m Story Mode Scum & Villainy

8m/16m Story mode Toborro's

16m Hard Mode Toborro's (8 REIGN and 8 No More Raids)

 

Progression

8m Hard Mode Terror From Beyond: Writhing Horror and Dread Guards (Operator is proving to be difficult)

8m Hard and Nightmare Mode Scum & Villainy: Dash

 

I will start frapsing everything we do again so that I can pull screenshots from all of our runs.

 

Here is a link to our "Raiding" page on our site.

 

Our home page can be found at http://reign-swtor.com/home

 

 

I would love to screenshot for this.

 

I would also like to say that my personal opinion is that this progression on NiM S&V should not count, as they used an exploit (see H&R's strategy of pulling the boss away from the sandstorm so that all fight mechanics can be ignored, making the fight very simple). I've uh. heard this from multiple sources. The best way to prove me wrong on this would be a screenshot of the boss's location. Shouldn't be hard, just take a screenshot of it next week when you guys down it again.

 

I just don't want our first NiM S&V progression to be because of an exploit. I don't feel this is true progression.

Edited July 17, 2013 by SweetMegan

[Radzkie]

I don't feel this is true progression.

 

I feel the same way.

 

Though I wouldn't be too upset if it did get counted. I just hope this exploit is fixed at some point.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Radzkie

[raidmac]

As much as I would like to say that killing Dash in an unorthodox way shouldnt count, they did down nim dash, I can confirm this because I have seen the achievements, and I spoke with two of the members in that group. We have set no prior rules about this so if reign claims the kill they should have it.

 

Now Regnar, knowing that you guys downed Dash with an unorthodox method, I will kindly ask that you rescind your claim on the kill as it is unfair to the guilds that have been progressing through the content the correct way. Its totally up to you, but I believe a lot of people will be upset if you do decide to keep your claim. Guilds that killed Hm/Nim Zorn and Toth using the rock exploit never claimed a kill and I believe you guys should do the same.

Edited July 17, 2013 by raidmac

[raidmac]

I would love to screenshot for this.

 

I would also like to say that my personal opinion is that this progression on NiM S&V should not count, as they used an exploit (see H&R's original strategy of pulling the boss away from the sandstorm so that all fight mechanics can be ignored, making the fight very simple). I've uh. heard this from multiple sources. The best way to prove me wrong on this would be a screenshot of the boss's location. Shouldn't be hard, just take a screenshot of it next week when you guys down it again.

 

I just don't want our first NiM S&V progression to be because of an exploit. I don't feel this is true progression.

 

Errmm Megan, WE cleared Hm Dash the correct way first, and after a few weeks we decided to do it a different way for fun. We no longer kill dash that way though as we know its an obvious exploit.

[SweetMegan]

Errmm Megan, WE cleared Hm Dash the correct way first, and after a few weeks we decided to do it a different way for fun. We no longer kill dash that way though as we know its an obvious exploit.

 

Okay, my bad on the original part. >< I just recall seeing your video on the forums, and I made a bad assumption. I apologize.

[SweetMegan]

As much as I would like to say that killing Dash in an unorthodox way shouldnt count, they did down nim dash, I can confirm this because I have seen the achievements, and I spoke with two of the members in that group. We have set no prior rules about this so if reign claims the kill they should have it.

 

Unorthodox would be like in the Cartel Warlords fight, and killing them in a different order than is usual. Playing monopoly and not purchasing Boardwalk.

 

This is avoiding all fight mechanics. Reached the same end result, but by doing something that was not intended in the game. That isn't unorthodox, that's exploiting. Like playing monopoly and never going to jail or never having to pay for landing one someone else's property. It makes it super easy to beat and someone who went through the fight in the way it was meant to play out would not be able to do it that easily. That's why I don't think it's true progression.

 

I am not saying that Reign didn't kill Dash in S&V NiM. This is a progressions thread and not a kill thread (during raiding progression, killing bosses out of order does not count towards the progression), and in my opinion, exploits shouldn't count. But it's not up to me. That is why I mentioned it, so that Maris can understand why some people may be upset if it were to count.

 

But until there is a screenshot, this is a moot point anyways.

Edited July 17, 2013 by SweetMegan

[Radzkie]

We have set no prior rules about this so if reign claims the kill they should have it.

 

Well, my thoughts on this is: is it REALLY necessary to write down, "exploiting aka cheating wont count"? You'd think that everyone would already understand that it is not a acceptable thing, be it in a hobby, sport or any legit competition setting.

 

Just my opinion anyway.

 

*shrug*

Edited July 17, 2013 by Radzkie

[raidmac]

deleted -.- Edited July 17, 2013 by raidmac

[raulguerreroote]

No More Raids has cleared:

 

8m SM TFB 5/5

8m SM S&V 7/7

8m SM TC

8m HM TFB 4/5

http://s1330.photobucket.com/user/raul_guerrero1/media/Screenshot_2013-07-17_17_44_47_846602_zps86748e28.jpg.html

[Regnar]

Ok all, back from my lunch break and it seems this thread has blown up quite a bit.

 

First of all I would like to say that there were no rules on how we have to kill a boss. The question is, "Did you kill Dash on NiM"? The answer is, "Yes". Whether it is done with 8 healers or using crafted grenades or Nightmare Pilgrim buff shouldn't matter. A kill is a kill, and we at REIGN were successful at completing this task.

 

Secondly, I COMPLETELY AGREE with all of you. That would not be a legit progression through the mechanics. It's up to the collective to "recognize" that as a legitimate kill or not. Either way doesn't matter to me much.

 

In summation, it was completed and will remain as cleared on our "Raid Progression Tracker" and our thunder will not be stolen.

 

P.S. I get off in 3 hours. Screenshots will be on in 4.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Regnar

[soowonlee]

Unorthodox would be like in the Cartel Warlords fight, and killing them in a different order than is usual. Playing monopoly and not purchasing Boardwalk.

 

This is avoiding all fight mechanics. Reached the same end result, but by doing something that was not intended in the game. That isn't unorthodox, that's exploiting. Like playing monopoly and never going to jail or never having to pay for landing one someone else's property. It makes it super easy to beat and someone who went through the fight in the way it was meant to play out would not be able to do it that easily. That's why I don't think it's true progression.

 

I am not saying that Reign didn't kill Dash in S&V NiM. This is a progressions thread and not a kill thread (during raiding progression, killing bosses out of order does not count towards the progression), and in my opinion, exploits shouldn't count. But it's not up to me. That is why I mentioned it, so that Maris can understand why some people may be upset if it were to count.

 

But until there is a screenshot, this is a moot point anyways.

 

While I honestly couldn't care less about what counts as progression, I thought I'd mention something that struck me about your argument, Megan.

 

You stated that killing Dash'Roode outside of the sandstorm is an exploit. I agree. Do you also think that standing in the sweet spot during the EC Kephess fight is an exploit? If so, then do you agree that all groups downing Kephess using it should not have their kill counted towards progression? If not, then why not?

 

You might point out that killing Dash'Roode outside of the sandstorm allows a group to ignore at least four mechanics (i.e. howling sandstorm debuff, transits from station to station, lost/womp rats, knockbacks out of the shield), whereas the sweet spot only ignores one mechanic (saturation fire). If you go this route however, then you'll have to explain how this difference of degree matters when counting something as an exploit. Why is it that some strategy that allows a group to ignore four or five mechanics counts as an exploit, but some strategy that allows a group to ignore one doesn't? What about a strategy that allows a group to ignore three mechanics? How about two? Do these count as exploits?

 

If we are defining "exploit" in terms of the number of mechanics that can be ignored, then the term admits of vagueness. There doesn't seem to be any non-arbitrary way of dividing the two above mentioned strategies such that one counts as an exploit and the other doesn't. It follows, then, that the two strategies stand and fall together. Either they are both exploits, or neither are.

 

Of course, there might be another distinction to draw between these two strategies which provides a reason to think that one is an exploit and the other isn't.

 

Ultimately I think it just goes to show that these sorts debates rest on arbitrary notions. Like I said before, I really don't care about whether or not Reign or anyone else gets their kills counted towards progression. I just thought it was interesting to point out what might be a problematic line of reasoning.

[Regnar]

You stated that killing Dash'Roode.....these sorts debates rest on arbitrary notions.

 

Yeah ^^^ What he said!!

 

No More Raids has cleared:......

http://s1330.photobucket.com/user/raul_guerrero1/media/Screenshot_2013-07-17_17_44_47_846602_zps86748e28.jpg.html

 

Ash is that the run you guys took Wocc on? And when the heck are you guys gonna be ready for another HM TC? We need to nail down a firm schedule, I caught SOOOO much grief from my wife last night for playing on a non-sanctioned night and you guys didn't even show up!!!

 

Also, do you think we could get thrown up there on that main post? I had posted all our clears in my first post on this thread. Our progression team's name is "The Heathens". All clears belong to the guild as a whole but the HM+ TfB, S&V, and TC are by "The Heathens" only, with the exception of TC which was with No More Raids.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Regnar

[soowonlee]

I should also add that it may be the case that guilds use progression as a way of "legitimizing" themselves, i.e. demonstrating that they are competent at challenging PvE content and perhaps a worthy destination for potential raiders.

 

My personal opinion is that HM Operator IX is the benchmark for determining whether a raid group is legit. It requires situation awareness (color deletion, black obtuse), good tanking (keeping adds off the person channeling, tanking regulators, taunting off to absorb disinfectant), competent healing (healing through orange and yellow phases, as well as the transition from yellow to phase two), and dps competancy (killing cores and adds in time during each color sub-phase).

 

So, if you can't down HM Operator IX, then you are not a legit raid group, in my opinion. Of course, that's just my opinion.

[Regnar]

I should also add that it may...... legit raid group, in my opinion. Of course, that's just my opinion.

 

We are super close to completing this. Just waiting on our last progression member to get back from vacation. Better hurry up D'redd...

[raidmac]

Ok all, back from my lunch break and it seems this thread has blown up quite a bit.

 

First of all I would like to say that there were no rules on how we have to kill a boss. The question is, "Did you kill Dash on NiM"? The answer is, "Yes". Whether it is done with 8 healers or using crafted grenades or Nightmare Pilgrim buff shouldn't matter. A kill is a kill, and we at REIGN were successful at completing this task.

 

Secondly, I COMPLETELY AGREE with all of you. It is not a legit progression through the mechanics. It's up to the collective to "recognize" this as a legitimate kill or not. Either way doesn't matter to me much.

 

In summation, it was completed and will remain as cleared on our "Raid Progression Tracker" and our thunder will not be stolen.

 

P.S. I get off in 3 hours. Screenshots will be on in 4.

 

 

Regnar, you are always saying that you want people to respect DJO/Reign, and through all the trolling your guild has done to me, I still continue to help your members when they ask me for help, because at the end of the day I want people to have fun. By still claiming to have downed Dash, after admitting to cheating/exploiting the boss, is not something that I believe any of the raiding guild here on this server will respect you for. If you are okay with the current image of your guild, then I say go head and continue what you are doing, but if you actually want to earn respect from the raiding guild here, then I would not claim that kill

[Zenithan]

Saturation fire is still a factor for at least three people even when part of the raid group is standing behind the walker. It's also a factor for the rest of the fight (until the walker falls.) The mechanic is only mitigated, not removed.

[soowonlee]

Saturation fire is still a factor for at least three people even when part of the raid group is standing behind the walker. It's also a factor for the rest of the fight (until the walker falls.) The mechanic is only mitigated, not removed.

 

The sweet spot that I'm talking about is about ten or so meters in front of the walker (between the walker and the center siege droid). Healers and ranged dps can stand there during the siege droid phase. Depending on the strategy, the majority of the raid group can stand there during the add phase. The entire raid group can stand there while fighting the first and second Baradium Bomber (7 out of 8 for the third bomber) and completely ignore saturation fire.

 

Also, would using a sage's Rescue on someone who is zip-lining up a walker count as an exploit? It allows the raid group to ignore what seems to be the developers' intended mechanic, i.e. having to heal through the damage that results from planting the bomb in the walker.

[Regnar]

Regnar, .... then I would not claim that kill

 

No one said that I was making a legitimate claim to the kill and we should be recognized here as the first guild to complete it. I AGREED that it wasn't a legit mechanic completion and that Bartemaeus is making solid points to what is considered "exploitation". I merely stated for my own peace of mind and that of my guildmates and groupmates, I am not removing the downed boss from my site's Ops Tracker. That is my site on which I make the decisions. That has nothing to do with the community as a whole and nothing to do with trolling. So let's keep the conversation to a positive and stay on point, pretty please.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Regnar

[soowonlee]

Here's another way to think about the issue. The degree to which respect should conferred to a group for downing a boss should be positively correlated with the difficulty of the boss fight. How much respect should be given to a group of 24 level 55s that downs the Tatooine world boss? Not much, I would presume. It's plausible to think that more respect should be given to a group of 24 level 50s that down 10 stack Dreadtooth prior to 2.0.

 

Now, my question to those who downed Dash'Roode using the strategy of fighting it outside of the sandstorm: Was the fight difficult? Do you think that you guys should be given respect for downing the boss in the manner that you did? From what I hear, using that strategy allows a group of three to down the boss, and that it is nothing more than a tank and spank. Is that worthy of respect?

 

Ultimately, it seems to me that our norms regarding exploits are grounded in certain commonly shared principles regarding the aforementioned relationship between esteem held by others and the difficulty of the task at hand. Of course, this applies to many things outside of SWTOR. Should Reign get respect for downing Dash'Roode in the way that they did? Perhaps, but certainly much less respect than a group that downed the boss by going from station to station. Likewise, should a raid group get respect for downing NiM EC Kephess while using the sweet spot? I think so, since the fight is still difficult. But, I also think that it is a more impressive achievement for a group to down Kephess without relying on that strategy.

[Regnar]

Here's another way to think about.... without relying on that strategy.

 

I'm not to sure if this was aimed towards us but I will reply to it anyhow. No one is saying that you need to respect us, no one is saying that we are the best. I merely found this thread and wished to have my guild added to it and try to get REIGN more integrated into the community. We are getting off point about whether or not REIGN deserves respect. Is this or this not an ops progression tracker thread? My guild has completed what I stated earlier and if using a certain tactic* in downing a boss is not considered "legitimate", then so be it. No skin off my back.

 

But there should be something in black and white that states that "only completing full mechanics will be counted". But now how do we know you completed full mechanics? Fraps the whole fight? This could go round and round for years. It is an arbitrary argument as you stated before.

 

*I don't like the word exploit

[-JeremytheJedi-]

You weren't the first guild to complete it anyway, No more Raids has the achievement about 3hrs before you guys. They didn't wanna post it in the progression thread as they used the "Strategy" of pulling him out of the sandstorm. Edited July 18, 2013 by -JeremytheJedi-

[Regnar]

You weren't the first guild to complete....

 

If you noticed NmR didn't even know this thread was here until today, or didn't care, as Ash didn't even post SM TfB or S&V until I made my initial post. And no one is claiming server first. We completed it, we got the gear, we got the achievement, so... what's the issue here?

[Radzkie]

so... what's the issue here?

 

The original issue(before all the random posts mumbling about whatever else) was that you posted it in the progression thread, and some people do not consider what you did as legit progression.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Radzkie

[Regnar]

The original issue(before all the random posts mumbling about whatever else) was that you posted it in the progression thread, and some people do not consider what you did as legit progression.

 

Then don't count it. GEEZ. How many times have I said it? I'm trying to be patient here but it's not being made very easy. We have progress in HM TfB downed HM TC and Dash in HM. Please add those that do "count" according to the rules that don't exist and let's move on.