Why there are a lack of tanks

[Elzen]

Your raw percentages went down, however you can now shield more attack types. As for healers/DPS, they went from 35% crit and 75% surge to 25% crit and 70% surge. So if you want to compare the percentages shown on the character sheet, every single person got 'nerfed'.

[Kitru]

You folks all say tanks arent nerfed but overnight the 30 50 50 defense shield and absorb plunged thru the floor..

 

There are 2 reasons that you saw your percentages dropped. The first is the modified DR curves at levels 51-55, which were designed to create a more balanced progression of mitigation profiles as gear advances as well as to balance out the fact that Shield/Abs now apply to F/T attacks as well as M/R attacks (which I don't think *anyone* would call a nerf). The second is that there's the gear reset that comes with any level increase. Even if you're in BiS gear *now* (72s and 75s), you're not in the level 55 equivalent of Dread Guard gear. You're in the level 55 equivalent of Rakata/Campaign. Comparing listed percentages in BiS for 1.7 to current BiS for 2.X is an inconsistent comparison until we get another 1-2 tiers ahead (as I said before, gear progression is going to be slower thanks to the new DR curves).

 

Its just a game loosen up.

 

So why are you going on and on about how horribly you've been nerfed, at least according to you? If it's just a game and we need to loosen up, you may want to take up that very same advice yourself (and before you tell me to stop crunching numbers and overanalyzing the game, that's how *I* enjoy the game).

[drtnap]

So why are you going on and on about how horribly you've been nerfed, at least according to you? If it's just a game and we need to loosen up, you may want to take up that very same advice yourself (and before you tell me to stop crunching numbers and overanalyzing the game, that's how *I* enjoy the game).

 

Thank you for the information.

I didnt understand all of that.

Crunch away if thats what you like.

There is no question that tanks take more damage in the new content though that is to be expected.

And that with a gear reset comes a whole new "arms race"

Besides the in your face number downgrades i suppose its more of a feel of being the whipping boy in the newer content.

Of only being alive because of constant incoming heals and cooldowns always in use.

I suppose that is what the devs want.

I meant no insult to those who did not insult me.

[Kynesis]

This is my point, tanking in pve makes you a plaything for even weak mobs, and grabbing and keeping aggro is a pain in the ***.

Also there were already a lack of tanks queing for hmfp at 50.

Then devs nerfed the **** out of tanks AND buffed the crap out of dps and heals on the way to 55.

Why would i want to run on my underpowered totally dependant tank when i can be on an overpowered self sufficient healer or commando?

And to be clear i define power in tanking as the ability to resist damage and to grab and keep aggro.

 

I'm actually totally with drtnap on most of his points & point of view on this issue, particularly about the 'weakness' (not quite the word I'm looking for but you get the gist) of tanks outside flashpoints & operations.

 

However, speaking for myself - the reason I don't tank FP's is that there's really no reason to put myself through it - my tanks are raid geared and pugging for the sake of it is pure masochism.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Kynesis

[Noctari]

And this is why people despise tanks, stopping between every damn pull going at a turtles pace. Then again I guess this is how you have to play with you keyboard turning and clicking ya know

 

people like you should never que up, or for that matter play a game that involves general interaction with other people.

if you don't like they way the tank is proceeding...*********** leave. there are plenty of DPS out there willing to take over where you so shamefully left off.

 

Encase you haven't realized it, ****tards like you are the reason there are a shortage of tanks...

[Atramar]

Damn. I didn't know healing annoyed tanks since they lose threat...

 

No , realy, I never had any one complaining (nor I ever complained on my tanks) that some one put a HoT on me... better taunt then die imo.

[quirez]

Id agree with more or less 60-70% of what was said before, but personally my biggest issue as a full tank is the solo gameplay...

 

Example:

 

i got 2 chars at 55- Operative Healer min/maxed+augmented heal gear (aka no accuracy, alot of alacrity) for 69 gear and Powertech Tank close to min/maxed 69+augmented tank gear (missing 3 augments, set bonus)

 

i respec dps on operative and run with heal companion as operative and do a full run of section X, black hole, makeb dailies in lets say 1,5h (number out of nothing, just to compare)

 

i then go on my poweretch, respec dps and get a dps companion (in 66/69 gear) and full run takes me more or less 2,5h and takes alot more effort.

 

"you can always invite some1 to help you with dailies etc etc" - no you cant always do this, in fact if you have a full time job and want to also run HMs and ops you often find yourself in a situation where all your friends have done dailies few hours ago, or cannot join you for whatever other reason

 

Hard mode flashpoints drops are also frustrating, i remember when i got back on my powertech after playing a healer for a month and started running HMs i got a first tank drop at my 13th run (yes i counted it...)

 

and for all those crying that being a tank in group content is hard, and not rewarding and the dps wont listen, and the healers wont heal and etc etc etc BOOOOORRRRIIIIING!!! L2P, or stop tanking. Thank you.

[Hockaday]

Damn. I didn't know healing annoyed tanks since they lose threat...

 

No , realy, I never had any one complaining (nor I ever complained on my tanks) that some one put a HoT on me... better taunt then die imo.

 

If you heal a tank before a LoS pull, it screws things up. I hate healers who do that, don't do that.

[Hockaday]

Id agree with more or less 60-70% of what was said before, but personally my biggest issue as a full tank is the solo gameplay...

 

Example:

 

i got 2 chars at 55- Operative Healer min/maxed+augmented heal gear (aka no accuracy, alot of alacrity) for 69 gear and Powertech Tank close to min/maxed 69+augmented tank gear (missing 3 augments, set bonus)

 

i respec dps on operative and run with heal companion as operative and do a full run of section X, black hole, makeb dailies in lets say 1,5h (number out of nothing, just to compare)

 

i then go on my poweretch, respec dps and get a dps companion (in 66/69 gear) and full run takes me more or less 2,5h and takes alot more effort.

 

 

Your problem here, is most likely stealth and CC. On my Sin tank it doesn't take that long at all...but I can skip everything. Same as your op.

[Kitru]

i then go on my poweretch, respec dps and get a dps companion (in 66/69 gear) and full run takes me more or less 2,5h and takes alot more effort.

 

Don't respec DPS when doing dailies. Seriously. If you're trying to run around as a DPS using your full tank gear, you're shooting yourself in the foot because pretty much *all* of your itemization is wasted. It's no surprise that you took 2.5 hours to do your dailies; you were doing it in pretty much the most idiotic way possible. I don't even bother respecing my healers to DPS when doing dailies because I can eliminate downtime while still dropping reasonably decent DPS to go along with my companion's.

 

On my tanks, doing those dailies, I actually performed some time trials with guildies and I *always* beat them out by 15-20 minutes (they finished in ~1:40, I finished in ~1:20): running with a DPS companion (as long as it's not HK; his lack of AoE renders him suboptimal), you can chew through groups of enemies, especially now that all tanks have much better AoE, with virtually negligible downtime, which, while you kill *slightly* slower, you won't have to rest nearly as much (or at all, in the case of my Shadow) which more than makes up for it.

 

If you're taking longer on your tank, you're doing something wrong. If you're taking *a lot* longer on your tank, you're doing something *really* wrong.

[Icebergy]

2.) The incentive is an insta pop.

 

This is not an incentive when the idea of dealing with the random DPS in this game makes you cringe.

[Atramar]

If you heal a tank before a LoS pull, it screws things up. I hate healers who do that, don't do that.

 

depends on a LoS pull. sometimes before you hide, you still get hit, and I'm sorry if I throw a heal when you are on 50%, mobs will still come to us as I stand next to you on LOS pull. you do 2 aoe's and mobs are back on you. I can throw 2 def cd's, they reset soon enouth, throw aoe heal and we'r good.

Usualy if I see tank doing aoe pulls on every trash I ask them to stop, as 'mate, I can heal that, don't worry'.

 

that 18s HoT on you can sometimes mean life over death

[Icebergy]

Isn't that proof enough, that by the long queue times waiting on tanks. It's the least desirable role to fill. Just because you play it and maybe enjoy it, doesn't speak for everyone else. Stop being self-centered.

 

Also as far as pulling off threat. My op DPS friend does a 4k DPS on her burst, you won't hold threat on that, I promise.

 

You have been debunked.

 

According to Torparse I spike 6-7k TPS at the start of boss fights. The average comes down over the course of the fight, but that means I can hold aggro on almost double your friend's DPS.

 

Trash and AoE is a much different story, but it is usually not an issue unless the DPS are being ridiculous.

[Icebergy]

If you heal a tank before a LoS pull, it screws things up. I hate healers who do that, don't do that.

 

As long as the healer LoSes with you, it won't matter.

 

To any healers reading this thread. Ignore the 'don't HoT me' people. Keep HoTing me up before pulls, I appreciate the steady heals right from the start of combat. If by some chance you get aggro, just LoS so the mobs run to me and I will take care of it.

[Atramar]

As long as the healer LoSes with you, it won't matter.

 

To any healers reading this thread. Ignore the 'don't HoT me' people. Keep HoTing me up before pulls, I appreciate the steady heals right from the start of combat. If by some chance you get aggro, just LoS so the mobs run to me and I will take care of it.

 

Phew. I thought I was doing something wrong there.

You have my HoT.

[Mazikeen]

Damn. I didn't know healing annoyed tanks since they lose threat...

 

No , realy, I never had any one complaining (nor I ever complained on my tanks) that some one put a HoT on me... better taunt then die imo.

 

If a tank need s aheal so quickly after the initial pull that you have to pre-HoT them, you need a new tank. Can a tank taunt off the stupid healer? Yes. Should we have to? No. And sometimes I don't just to make a point.

 

People not following simple rules and thinking they are, somehow, magically better than the mechanics of the game are why things have gotten so out of hand.

[Mazikeen]

As long as the healer LoSes with you, it won't matter.

 

To any healers reading this thread. Ignore the 'don't HoT me' people. Keep HoTing me up before pulls, I appreciate the steady heals right from the start of combat. If by some chance you get aggro, just LoS so the mobs run to me and I will take care of it.

 

This right here is part of the problem.

 

Smart tanks plan for stupid. The general rule is simple: plan for the worst, hope for the best. Always assume you're running with morons (and many tanks do. There is no shortage of tanks, there is a shortage of tanks willing to run in a PuG), plan around it and you'll be fine. Saying 'do THIS, but only if you do THIS' is a path to failure. Half those people won't do it, they'll get aggro, you'll be bust with 3-4 other mobs and that one stray will kill your healer and wipe your group. All because you decided 'hurhur, screw the 13 year tanking vet, let's do it my way, I know better'.

 

And as DPS I have seen this happen. In fact, on my DPS Jug I have to offtank more often than not because the actual tank is a tool and can't get their &%@$ together.

[Furiel]

There is no shortage of tanks, there is a shortage of tanks willing to run in a PuG.

 

This.

 

I won't tank in a PuG anymore. Been through too much BS with stupid people over the years that I keep my tanks reserved for guildies and runs with other friends. On the off chance I need gear on my tank I do it the old fashioned way...save up the comms on my healer or DPS, buy the piece I want with them then legacy transfer the mods. My tank still gets geared and I don't have to practically have an aneurism because people can't follow simple instructions like don't have the DPS pull the next 2 groups simultaneously while the healer is AFK.

[Illiyana]

If a tank need s aheal so quickly after the initial pull that you have to pre-HoT them, you need a new tank. Can a tank taunt off the stupid healer? Yes. Should we have to? No. And sometimes I don't just to make a point.

 

People not following simple rules and thinking they are, somehow, magically better than the mechanics of the game are why things have gotten so out of hand.

 

While I certainly can't speak for Ops (and so, my following comment doesn't apply to them to the best of my knowledge), I would be tremendously embarrassed if I couldn't get enough threat on and/or disable 80% to 100% of the mobs on a given pull within the first 3 to 4 GCD's of going into combat to counteract a pre-HoT cast on me by the healer. A pre-hot thrown by a healer helps them with both resource and GCD management which can be intense on certain trash pulls. Furthermore, certain HoTs are of long duration and, unless manually removed by the tank, could simply still be on the tank from the previous pull.

 

"Punishing" healers for "not following simple rules" is completely unjustified for when tanks have such fantastic tools to cement their threat in this game. I can understand a degree of frustration at dps that don't follow the weak, strong, elite, champ, boss approach of squishing mobs (since there is literally no better way that to lower incoming damage than following that kill order in most cases), but not making use of your toolset to keep your healer safe just seems odd to me.

[Mazikeen]

"Punishing" healers for "not following simple rules" is completely unjustified for when tanks have such fantastic tools to cement their threat in this game. I can understand a degree of frustration at dps that don't follow the weak, strong, elite, champ, boss approach of squishing mobs (since there is literally no better way that to lower incoming damage than following that kill order in most cases), but not making use of your toolset to keep your healer safe just seems odd to me.

 

You're focusing on SWTOR tanking. You're focusing on certain healers. I set my own rules for ALL MMOs, and for ALL classes. Teach people how to play one game and they'll excel, but fall when faced with a new one. Teach them basic rules to follow that focus on common mechanics of all games and they'll be above average in every one of them.

 

Arguing with me on this is pointless. I have enough people backing me up across enough MMOs to be justified. Tanks exist, they will not run with most PuGs. PuGs do not typically follow a core set of rules. Because of the resulting chaos, tanks hate randoms and randoms can't find tanks.

 

When I played Everquest there were accepted standards EVERYONE followed. You followed them or got blacklisted and eventually quit because no one would group with you. People have &%$$ed out and now there are no set standards. If we had a core path to follow things would get much more organized and much more pleasant.

 

A tank should not have to put in extra effort because people cannot follow common-sense rules. Do not draw aggro early (this includes HoTs). Give them 3-5 seconds to get aggro. Do not break CC. These are simple rules we can all follow with no detraction from the fun of the game. Accept this, or suffer the lack of tanks. I am a tank. I have always been a tank, and I will always be a tank. I am not suffering from this.

[Icebergy]

This right here is part of the problem.

 

Smart tanks plan for stupid. The general rule is simple: plan for the worst, hope for the best. Always assume you're running with morons (and many tanks do. There is no shortage of tanks, there is a shortage of tanks willing to run in a PuG), plan around it and you'll be fine. Saying 'do THIS, but only if you do THIS' is a path to failure. Half those people won't do it, they'll get aggro, you'll be bust with 3-4 other mobs and that one stray will kill your healer and wipe your group. All because you decided 'hurhur, screw the 13 year tanking vet, let's do it my way, I know better'.

 

And as DPS I have seen this happen. In fact, on my DPS Jug I have to offtank more often than not because the actual tank is a tool and can't get their &%@$ together.

 

Not sure if you are insulting me or agreeing with me...if the former, please see my sig. Its about 90% certain that I am as good if not better than you at tanking.

 

And judging by the fact that you can't out-threat pre-HoTs, I would push that number closer to 100. Even if the healer does pull aggro on 1-2 mobs, if you pulled correctly those aren't the mobs that are going to be any threat to the healer anyways so the healer will be fine until they die or you can pick them up. And even if the healer somehow does die, there are very few trash pulls that I cannot survive without a healer up with my cooldowns, so its not going to be a wipe either way.

 

If the latter, ignore the above and I mostly agree with what you are saying.

[Icebergy]

If a tank need s aheal so quickly after the initial pull that you have to pre-HoT them, you need a new tank. Can a tank taunt off the stupid healer? Yes. Should we have to? No. And sometimes I don't just to make a point

 

Then you are OK with the healer not healing you to make their point? If I was on my healer healing you and you pulled this, I would let you die every single pull and then just heal the DPS while they tank.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Icebergy

[Hockaday]

As long as the healer LoSes with you, it won't matter.

 

To any healers reading this thread. Ignore the 'don't HoT me' people. Keep HoTing me up before pulls, I appreciate the steady heals right from the start of combat. If by some chance you get aggro, just LoS so the mobs run to me and I will take care of it.

 

You are incorrect. If a healer heals you while you're los pulling, they have agro automatically. So you start the fight off with near 0 agro, while theirs is already built. Don't heal tanks when LoS'ing.

[Hockaday]

Phew. I thought I was doing something wrong there.

You have my HoT.

 

You are, if a tank is being hit on a LoS pull, something went wrong. Don't heal on a proper LoS pull where the tank isn't hit. Standard affair here. If something goes wrong, plan changes on the fly.

[Hockaday]

You're focusing on SWTOR tanking. You're focusing on certain healers. I set my own rules for ALL MMOs, and for ALL classes. Teach people how to play one game and they'll excel, but fall when faced with a new one. Teach them basic rules to follow that focus on common mechanics of all games and they'll be above average in every one of them.

 

Arguing with me on this is pointless. I have enough people backing me up across enough MMOs to be justified. Tanks exist, they will not run with most PuGs. PuGs do not typically follow a core set of rules. Because of the resulting chaos, tanks hate randoms and randoms can't find tanks.

 

When I played Everquest there were accepted standards EVERYONE followed. You followed them or got blacklisted and eventually quit because no one would group with you. People have &%$$ed out and now there are no set standards. If we had a core path to follow things would get much more organized and much more pleasant.

 

A tank should not have to put in extra effort because people cannot follow common-sense rules. Do not draw aggro early (this includes HoTs). Give them 3-5 seconds to get aggro. Do not break CC. These are simple rules we can all follow with no detraction from the fun of the game. Accept this, or suffer the lack of tanks. I am a tank. I have always been a tank, and I will always be a tank. I am not suffering from this.

 

This guy. My tanking twin.

 

Problem is, most people who play MMOs, didn't play when we started.. They started later on games like WoW or even EQ2. Which is far from the MMO world We started in. The simple rules of MMO and MMO grouping aren't taught anymore, but rather "i'll do what I want, because I rock solo" is prevalent. Since MMOS aren't really MMOs as much, but co-op games with lobbies these days.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Hockaday