odawgg Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 I actually felt the pain in that sigh at the end. Go Go guys Yeah that was my sigh lol...so sad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iSeth Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 I believe suckafish is coming very close to killing it and they use a Merc for dps. Even a perfect Merc can't match the dps of a sniper IMO. It's killable. I doubt starwars expected all of the crying to happen by them doing what everyone asked for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vdbswong Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 I believe suckafish is coming very close to killing it and they use a Merc for dps. Even a perfect Merc can't match the dps of a sniper IMO. It's killable. I doubt starwars expected all of the crying to happen by them doing what everyone asked for. I believe if you look at the DPS Leaderboard thread, particularly pertaining to both Suckafish's members Pizza (Merc) and Roovin (Sniper), they're both over 3000 DPS, with Pizza actually ahead by 7 (3024->3015). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylvane Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 I believe if you look at the DPS Leaderboard thread, particularly pertaining to both Suckafish's members Pizza (Merc) and Roovin (Sniper), they're both over 3000 DPS, with Pizza actually ahead by 7 (3024->3015). Go look at boss fights in general on torparse, plenty of classes can do the needed dps its just sniper/slinger can do it easier than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atschai Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 I believe suckafish is coming very close to killing it and they use a Merc for dps. Even a perfect Merc can't match the dps of a sniper IMO. It's killable. I doubt starwars expected all of the crying to happen by them doing what everyone asked for. They are not using a merc. They have Pizza. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iSeth Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 Pizza is by far best Merc I know of. Doesn't mean Mercs can out dps snipers. A dummy parse doesn't mean much. I am drawing an opinion based on torparse logs of the fight. I think snipers can out dps Mercs. Regardless of how amazing the players are. Pizza is best Merc by far, now imagine if he was a sniper. Just through skills he will be capable of another 100-200 dps in that fight. At least that is what I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigheadbrandon Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 I believe suckafish is coming very close to killing it and they use a Merc for dps. Even a perfect Merc can't match the dps of a sniper IMO. It's killable. I doubt starwars expected all of the crying to happen by them doing what everyone asked for. dunno why people think merc dps isnt on the high-end of max dps output it's been a well established fact that merc dps owns for a very , very long time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paowee Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 As we are seeing now that its not impossible at all i really like how they tuned this fight even if it probably was an accident. Imho every Nightmare Encounter should be this hard at first so even the best of the best can't kill it on day one. Once an Encounter has been defeated it could be tuned down after a few weeks so that its accessible to a little more casual players. If they did it like that everyone would have fun. Hardcore Progress Guilds at first and the more casual guilds a little later. hmm i like how you think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy_Karl Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 (edited) Karl, I don't disagree with what you're saying here. However, I'd like to note that your angry, vicious and nasty comments to Tam and some of the others in this thread are among the things that propelled it into flaming and trolling. You could have kept your cool and just tried to make your point instead. Point me to a post where I made these so called "angry, vicious, and nasty" comments. I did not throw the first stone. It was the wording, and then the insulting of people who thought calling it "impossible" in ANY way shape or form was premature. Someone is going to beat the fight in its current form, just like 5 or so guilds managed tanks pre-nerf. I'm sure people would have been more receptive if this whole thing didn't start Day 1 after some guilds gave it all of 15 pulls. I merely confirmed there was a problem, and others (who had not even attempted the encounter) escalated it as such. And as we have seen, our assessment was not premature, but indeed accurate. Every guild who is still banging their heads against the brick wall that is DG have agreed with our so called "premature" assessment. It only took a few dozen pulls for us to realize not only would the RNG gods need to be on our side, but we would need to completely revamp our DPS setup to even see a sub 20% pull. Our group composition was of some of the best players in this game, but who unfortunately don't play classes that were required. Our World 3rd/US 1st Warstalker title should have at least lent us some credibility before everyone decided to tell us to L2P. Regards, KK Edited June 15, 2013 by Krazy_Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkitip Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 (edited) Point me to a post where I made these so called "angry, vicious, and nasty" comments. I did not throw the first stone. I merely confirmed there was a problem, and others (who had not even attempted the encounter) escalated it as such. And as we have seen, our assessment was not premature, but indeed accurate. Every guild who is still banging their heads against the brick wall that is DG have agreed with our so called "premature" assessment. It only took a few dozen pulls for us to realize not only would the RNG gods need to be on our side, but we would need to completely revamp our DPS setup to even see a sub 20% pull. Our group composition was of some of the best players in this game, but who unfortunately don't play classes that were required. Regards, KK Your assessment wasn't entirely accurate though, as you've since admitted right? It is mathematically possible, and the 1st few pages of arguments were based on that. While I won't be one to say you made angry, or vicious comments - if you go back to the start of the thread *edit I won't say your comments in particular but the comments in general* towards people who weren't in agreement (even posts that were worded without any insults of any sort) were extremely condescending and probably qualify as nasty. Edited June 15, 2013 by arkitip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy_Karl Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 (edited) Your assessment wasn't entirely accurate though, as you've since admitted right? It is mathematically possible, and the 1st few pages of arguments were based on that. While I won't be one to say you made angry, or vicious comments - if you go back to the start of the thread your comments towards people who weren't in agreement (even posts that were worded without any insults of any sort) were extremely condescending and probably qualify as nasty. It will be "mathematically possible" when someone does defeat it. I did concede though that I probably should have stated "effectively impossible" and I have admitted being wrong numerous times since then. What was not inaccurate was saying "mathematically impossible" for our group composition. This fight requires a very specific setup to defeat this encounter. And your perception of my wording warranted the trolling/arguments/flaming that went on for 50 pages? Pardon me, but I didn't realize that telling people who were doing paper napkin math to go in and attempt it for themselves before arguing that it was not overtuned is condescending. If it is defeated, I will have been wrong of my generalization of "mathematically impossible". However, the purpose of this thread still was not to have the fight nerfed, but to fix a bug with the enrage timer to match it to current gearing and diversity of DPS composition. Regards, KK Edited June 15, 2013 by Krazy_Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnickerJew Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 Would love to see the enrage timer expanded by anywhere from 30-60 seconds. POSSIBLY take a little off of the HP, but that may be pushing it. I'm thinking maybe a little off the HP due to it being double, if not higher than double, than they are on HM almost. Mechanics are fine, it just needs to be doable for all classes and specs. That's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paowee Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 (edited) the enrage timer to match it to current gearing and diversity of DPS composition. Regards, KK Or have the rest of the instance tuned harder to match NiM DG Council. Op ix, kephess, and TFB in NiM mode cleared in one or 2 days by D&T? Make the fight a nightmare while making it possible for diversity of DPS composition. Suckafish actually have to work hard for a boss kill in this game. Hard mode its understandable. But for that same thing to happen to NiM mode? Where's the challenge in that.. A couple of European guilds have brought the fight to 10 and 8% and that was without pilgrim buff. I think its Down it like its hoth forgot the other one. The nim dg council 11,000 hp video... that was the most fun i've seen or watched in a raid. Truly nim worthy! Edited June 15, 2013 by paowee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy_Karl Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 Would love to see the enrage timer expanded by anywhere from 30-60 seconds. POSSIBLY take a little off of the HP, but that may be pushing it. I'm thinking maybe a little off the HP due to it being double, if not higher than double, than they are on HM almost. Mechanics are fine, it just needs to be doable for all classes and specs. That's all. Leave the HP alone. Leave everything about the fight alone. Just fix the bug with the enrage timer and everyone will be satisfied. Regards, KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigheadbrandon Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 the fight should be tuned so you can do it with 4 assassin dps tia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy_Karl Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 (edited) Or have the rest of the instance tuned harder to match NiM DG Council. But i am with you on How about my jugg, sorc and sin DPS? -_- This is a game. People play the characters they have fun playing, in addition to the fun of progression. Unless all classes are balanced perfectly (for Bioware would be impossible) there has to be wiggle room with enrage timers to accommodate players playing the classes they have fun with. You cannot force a specific group composition without alienating a huge portion of the playerbase (something nobody wants). We had a member of our guild (Jekel) who probably played the best Shadow/Assassin DPS I have ever seen. He rerolled a Gunslinger in order to raid, then quit the game because he didn't have fun with his Gunslinger and his preferred class just cannot keep up with the other classes in DPS. Honestly sad really. Regards, KK Edited June 15, 2013 by Krazy_Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansalem Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuUBkuN2lwQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paowee Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 (edited) This is a game. People play the characters they have fun playing, in addition to the fun of progression. Unless all classes are balanced perfectly (for Bioware would be impossible) there has to be wiggle room with enrage timers to accommodate players playing the classes they have fun with. You cannot force a specific group composition without alienating a huge portion of the playerbase (something nobody wants). We had a member of our guild (Jekel) who probably played the best Shadow/Assassin DPS I have ever seen. He rerolled a Gunslinger in order to raid, then quit the game because he didn't have fun with his Gunslinger and his preferred class just cannot keep up with the other classes in DPS. Honestly sad really. Regards, KK Yeah i think my sorc dps will have to sit out for council and go back after that boss is down rofl EDIT: wait why did he quit ? just because he couldnt keep up with the other classes? Which mmo did he transfer to now? WoW? Edited June 15, 2013 by paowee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vdbswong Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 Pizza is by far best Merc I know of. Doesn't mean Mercs can out dps snipers. A dummy parse doesn't mean much. I am drawing an opinion based on torparse logs of the fight. I think snipers can out dps Mercs. Regardless of how amazing the players are. Pizza is best Merc by far, now imagine if he was a sniper. Just through skills he will be capable of another 100-200 dps in that fight. At least that is what I believe. Without actually having seen logs for Suckafish's attempts, (and i don't believe they showed numbers on the stream?) I wouldn't want to comment on whether Pizza or Roovin were doing higher DPS. I was merely pointing out that in a controlled environment where you could produce numbers for comparison, Pizza was ahead. I also wasn't trying to say that Merc's were better than Snipers, simply that going by Dummy parses, which unlike actual fights are less subject to player execution and potential AoE padding, that Mercs are keeping close to Snipers. Basically... i don't think having a Merc is as much of a hindrance as you made it sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigheadbrandon Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 Yeah i think my sorc dps will have to sit out for council and go back after that boss is down rofl EDIT: wait why did he quit ? just because he couldnt keep up with the other classes? Which mmo did he transfer to now? WoW? he doesnt play video games anymore, bioware made him hate video games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnickerJew Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 This is a game. People play the characters they have fun playing, in addition to the fun of progression. Unless all classes are balanced perfectly (for Bioware would be impossible) there has to be wiggle room with enrage timers to accommodate players playing the classes they have fun with. You cannot force a specific group composition without alienating a huge portion of the playerbase (something nobody wants). We had a member of our guild (Jekel) who probably played the best Shadow/Assassin DPS I have ever seen. He rerolled a Gunslinger in order to raid, then quit the game because he didn't have fun with his Gunslinger and his preferred class just cannot keep up with the other classes in DPS. Honestly sad really. Regards, KK So, In regards to this, not all classes can take the Heirad down before 3 lightening phase. Lowering the HP even 50k or so would balance this a tiny bit as well as a 30 second extension to the enrage timer. Just food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paowee Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 (edited) Without actually having seen logs for Suckafish's attempts, (and i don't believe they showed numbers on the stream?) I wouldn't want to comment on whether Pizza or Roovin were doing higher DPS. I was merely pointing out that in a controlled environment where you could produce numbers for comparison, Pizza was ahead. I also wasn't trying to say that Merc's were better than Snipers, simply that going by Dummy parses, which unlike actual fights are less subject to player execution and potential AoE padding, that Mercs are keeping close to Snipers. Basically... i don't think having a Merc is as much of a hindrance as you made it sound. MM Sniper at top followed by Merc/Mara/Mara. The 3 go back and forth in DPS last time i took a peek in their mox. But idk how the logs look like for that 10,800 hp attempt. According to roovin he feels that fight is 'tailor made' for Snipers You also have to take into account other factors. They drop the green puddles mostly in a neat line. That reduces the time it takes for people to grab them when they get doomed. A Sniper can roll and ideally pick up 5 puddles , run in to 1, in a second and then go back to DPSing. As opposed to a Marauder who will take a little bit more time removing doom stacks. There's also orbital's fluff (AoE) DPS on the other 2 bosses. And ofcourse the red pools (i imagine ) are really a big annoyance for the melee classes but idk. Edited June 15, 2013 by paowee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigheadbrandon Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 (edited) remember that the person in charge of balance for this game mains a sniper lol no bias there!!! Edited June 15, 2013 by bigheadbrandon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paowee Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 (edited) remember that the person in charge of balance for this game mains a sniper lol no bias there!!!Not sure if serious or trolling. OT: RE: snipers topping in dg council and saying its biased because dev is a sniper HM TFB Marauders topTerror From Beyond HM SNV Marauders top Styrak, they do 100,000 more damage than the snipers As a side note, one time my Sorc DPS did 100,000 less than merc and sniper and i was wearing full arkanian gear. lol. 1379785 Gorband Mara (full 72) 1290320 Pizzadahutt Merc, Roov Sniper (full 72) 1104392 boardMuffin sorc http://www.torparse.com/a/244396/33/0/Overview (full 69) ok fine well its 185,000 difference to be exact -___- Edited June 15, 2013 by paowee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigheadbrandon Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 Not sure if serious or trolling. HM SNV Marauders top Styrak and they do 100,000 more damage than the snipers HM TFB Marauders topTerror From Beyond, same thing. the main class balance guy's "favorite" class is a sniper, that's actually true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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