Dread Guards Nightmare overtuned

[Afieri]

yeah you posted this as I was editting:P Also we do have a sin tank

 

800 health is not going to improve your tank's mitigation that much, rough numbers 0.06*800 = 4.8hp/force lightning, which is used roughly once every 7.5-9s? which gives 0.5444-0.644 HPS which is kind of negligible. Especially seeing as your problem is not the healing, but the dps.

 

idk if trading 800 health for 82 power is gonna up a tank's dps significantly

 

Well if you are a Guardian/VG there is no downside to dropping 800hp for 82 power. Unless if you are dropping down to 800 health regularly in the fight, then having the 800hp is essentially wasted power. May as well go for a useful stat as opposed to a useless stat.

[arkitip]

What we have learned:

 

• The fight cannot be done without a very specific combination of DPS.
  
• RNG must be perfect in order to even have a viable attempt, let alone a kill.
  
• The NP buff is required which also equates to the establishment that more gear is required to beat the enrage.
  
• Specific Tanking classes are needed in order to position the bosses in such a way that allows the tank to DPS.
  
• Craftable grenades will be mandatory for all players.
  
• This fight is only meant to be defeated by .01% of all active SWTOR raiders.
  

 

I think that about sums it up.

 

So if Suckafish manages to defeat them, I will eat crow as I will admit I was wrong about our "mathematical impossibility" statements. However I will use different language from here on out: "effectively impossible".

 

If it takes 100 pulls of flawless execution of mechanics with the ideal group composition to finally get the perfect RNG to achieve the kill AND that was Bioware's intention, then everyone else was correct. But that still categorically puts this fight soundly in the realm of effective impossibility.

 

And none of the armchair raiders posting in this thread pleading for it to be left alone will ever achieve the kill until the enrage timer is fixed (as this is clearly a bug).

 

Regards,

KK

 

Funny thing is - you're describing NiM 16m EC tanks pre-nerf. If you go back and dig those threads up though you'll see the 16m guilds actually hoping the fight wasn't going to get nerfed, rather than the opposite.

[umbak]

I agree on the RNG aspect of dooms making a significant portion of the fight. However i don't believe the pilgrim buff or grenades are infact mandatory (with some of our quickest atttempts been without either).

That said we were using grenades to keep up dps when doomed and i think they actually constitute a minor dps loss when used in any other phase but heriad due to the arkwardness of placing the reticule.

If it needs to be changed i'd propose about 25s-30s onto the timer.

It keeps the fight tuned enough that it requires top play but mitigates some of the needed RNG on P2.

P3 itself i don't think it too problematic, the crux lies in beating the 3rd surging (doable without the pilgrim and grenades) and getting through ciphas as soon as possible (a little trickier but possible with good tanking/positioning)

[ErosGyne]

I realy dont care if the the top guild kill or not this guys, my problem like many already said, its group composition, now to have a change to beat this fight you have to take the op,fotm classes,we all now some classes performe better that others ,what will that do to the raid group that really play the classes because they like it, not because they performe better

from the complaints on this forum, what will happen if if took 2 commando helears and 2 scoundrel dps?

[Ansalem]

I have

waiting on standby to be posted if someone actually does kill this before next reset...

[bigheadbrandon]

hey guys can i do this fight with an assassin dps???

LOL

Edited June 14, 2013 by bigheadbrandon

[Zyntharion]

I realy dont care if the the top guild kill or not this guys, my problem like many already said, its group composition, now to have a change to beat this fight you have to take the op,fotm classes,we all now some classes performe better that others ,what will that do to the raid group that really play the classes because they like it, not because they performe better

from the complaints on this forum, what will happen if if took 2 commando helears and 2 scoundrel dps?

 

The problem with this fight is that the doom mechanic on a Melee essential means they're providing no dps for the duration of that debuff while they're running and collecting circles like a retard. This applies to all melee regardless of class. I will agree that this fight requires certain composition needs that are Quality of life changing and help the ecounter by a big or small margin. Having 2-3 ranged is optimal with 1 marauder as the melee dps. DiLiH's run healing Comp involves an Operative healer and a Merc healer, that's right a merc healer. I'm quite confident that if we had second merc healer that were as good as our current one we'd have no problem with the healing. The only cheese I see here is the bubble from Sorcerors but it's not required, but it does help out alot together with their AoE heal. Tanking wise I would suggest a Powertech and a Juggernaut for this fight, but again Suckafish and DiLiH who've been the closest so far to claim a kill are both running an assassin tank, so that's fair.

 

You have to keep in mind that in an MMO you'll always have composition requirements for some fights. Hell Paragon didn't have a single Shaman in their Ragnaros 25 Heroic kill which was world first, yet other guilds that managed to beat him later actually had shamans in both healing and dps roles.

 

After reading all pages I think both the Community and DnT are acting retardedly hostile towards each other over something as silly as a fight in this game. Both have points that actually are legit, while other points are moot. The bottom line is that you should stop bashing each other and work together or leave it at be now that there's been a 40 ish page long thread about the problem. If Suckafish, DiLiH or any other guild manages to kill the DG's you'll prove DnT wrong and that's it. Nothing more or less. I really don't see the reason of being so hostile.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Zyntharion

[Lacedemon]

Our comp (DiLiH) could be more than argued as being far from optimal in-terms of the classes we took. The Comp is:

 

Jugg Tank

Sin Tank

Anni Mara

Vengeance Jugg

Lightening Sorc (although on Some attempts this has been an Arsenal Merc)

MM Sniper

Merc Healer

Op Healer

 

Although for the video'd attempt I was rage because it's dmg is less subject to RNG than Vengeance and because I can cheese the adds in P3 by pretty much solo'ing down the affliction one and splash dmg'ing the others

Edited June 14, 2013 by Lacedemon

[Korse]

When threads get this long people typically forget the essence of the original posts, or even the conversations that happened from pages 1-10, 10-20, etc. This thread (and the progression thread) turned into mudslinging because of people from other guilds attacking our character/our determination/our internet morals - whatever you want to call it.

 

No where did we claim that we cleared NiM TFB world first (this can be confusing, since TFB is the name of the instance as well as the final boss - maybe we should just call it Asation). But we sure as heck will claim world first (according to your chart here) WH, Op9, Kephess & TFB. We made a tactical choice by skipping DG - effectively forfeiting the ability to claim world first Asation clear if anyone gets DG since the other fights aren't as difficult.

 

We felt that the fight was overtuned and moved on - in the progression thread we even stated what we did and if you listen to our Mumble you can hear us discussing wanting to see if the rest of the instance was overtuned. What was a discussion turned into some haters/bitter people slinging mud, and then arguments and flame wars ensued. I won't be able to convince anyone to read the entire thread I'm sure, but there was a real discussion in there...somewhere.

 

To discredit our accomplishments because of some misguided e-morals or adhering to the unspoken rule of "linear progression" (which doesn't exist in any other MMO with NM/HM capabilities) comes off as petty.

 

I didn't lose the original purpose of the thread. One guild arrogantly claimed that because they couldn't beat a boss after a couple hours, it was mathematically impossible (a term that is not subjective). Apparently unable to cope with not being as perfect as they claimed, they chose to move on so they got points in a thread, exalting in celebration after defeating a bugged boss. I think those two points sum it up nicely. Having beaten 16M NM EC tanks pre-nerf (US First since you guys like to toss that kind of stuff out) and working on this fight for a few hours, I can draw parallels. At no point in that progression did I ever question whether or not it was mathematically impossible and give up. We kept at it, beat it.

[FridgeLM]

Do i ride my high horse and dismiss everyone and tell them to st***qmaor That I think is what's ticking everybody off. People have "legitimate" disputes and they do not deserve any trolling at all.

 

No, but you do ride in on your high horse and try to take some kind of laughable nerd moral high ground when, when you quote my post, I was responding to your astoundingly butthurt GM (I think?) making his dozenth or so astoundingly butthurt sarcastic post about us.

 

Don't act like we threw the first stone.

[Ansalem]

I didn't lose the original purpose of the thread. One guild arrogantly claimed that because they couldn't beat a boss after a couple hours, it was mathematically impossible (a term that is not subjective). Apparently unable to cope with not being as perfect as they claimed, they chose to move on so they got points in a thread, exalting in celebration after defeating a bugged boss. I think those two points sum it up nicely. Having beaten 16M NM EC tanks pre-nerf (US First since you guys like to toss that kind of stuff out) and working on this fight for a few hours, I can draw parallels. At no point in that progression did I ever question whether or not it was mathematically impossible and give up. We kept at it, beat it.

 

You apparently didn't watch any of the stream or videos. I would not refer to our reaction on the terror kill as anything even close to exalting in celebration. As more the mathmatically impossible statement its pretty easy to see. based on hps, mechanics, RNG of the fight in rank 72 gear the fight is absolutely impossible. Even using every lil extra its impossible as the best shot was a 10% wipe. Now if they were hitting enrage at 10% with all their guys alive Id say sure they have a shot. But that 10% is when the last guy dies...thats a solid 15-20% of dpsing while the boss is enraged. And that is squeezing everything possible out of it. Maybe when people get a few drops or farm nightmare WH on alts to transfer over the mods from drops they can do it, but first week in there it would take an absolute miracle of RNG to get this down. That is where probability factors in. Look at the number of wipes from all the guilds still trying this encounter. Assume there are 500 wipes going on during this first week per guild that is still trying this encounter...it is literally a 1 in a million shot and last I looked there arent 1 million players doing 1 million attempts at this boss in swtor.

[Aerro]

A lot of people have been stating the same thing pretty frequently, which I do agree with to an extent:

 

All bosses should be in-line with each other.

 

 

Now, that doesn't necessarily mean DG should be nerfed. This is *Nightmare*. We have 3 difficulty settings. Since the launch of the game, all the top guilds who love progression have been disappointed with each and every patch. The only thing stopping a lot of progression was generally a single boss with terrible scaling. Here is the list of raiding that we all ended up complaining about on these very forums:

 

Nightmare Eternity Vault: An absolute joke. The only problems were Pylons bugging out and causing a wipe or Soa platforms not respawning, which lead to another wipe. This instance was a joke and the only difficulties were the bugs it carried.

 

Nightmare KP: No real challenges provided except for 16 Jarg and Sorno. Their railshot was one shot members. You had 0.5sec to cleanse the debuff off the target and hope the railshot doesn't go off. Guilds claimed it was impossible on 16 as well. We did it and then got our 2 HR title that same night. Again, no real challenge provided.

 

Nightmare EC: Now, this was more towards the 8man guilds since they were the ones complaining about the easy difficulty. With multiple 2 hour clears the first week and a dozen following the next week- this was a great indication that the current content was a joke. However, for 16 is was extremely difficult due to overtuning (again). NiM 16 Tanks was, of course, deemed impossible. We (as well as other guilds) persevered despite it being wipe after wipe. (

20min of us wiping. Attempts were about 10sec long in the video). We didn't give up and finally got it, despite DPS requirements being insane. We considered this to be what true nightmare difficulty should be. It was nerfed. Vorgath was a joke and Kephess was once again bugged.

 

I guess I can put in the Hardmode variants that surfaced, but none of them are even remotely noteworthy.

 

What is progression if a boss dies the same night you attempt them? Anyone remember H LK? H Rag? Those weren't killed over night. The World First H Rag kill was over 400 attempts. It was because it was challenging, not impossible. It required precision in terms of DPS, awareness and a lot of other factors.

 

To walk in and do a few attempts on a boss and demand a nerf is maybe something for Hardmode content. Hardmode content is supposed to be accessible by a majority of high end guilds, but not all guilds. If you look at some casual guilds- they are still progressing through HM SV and they are *fine* with that. Nightmare content, as stated at release and up to now, is for those wanting to test themselves. Its not any sort of test to dedication or skill if you kill it in a handful of attempts. 14 attempts shouldn't kill 1 of the 5 bosses. Sure, if there were 13 bosses to go through, then I can understand a boss taking 14-20 attempts... but there are only 5. Its supposed to be content that lasts. If content lasts 3 days, then whats the point? We pay $15 a month to wait for new content to come out and kill immediately as it comes? That feels somewhat depressing in my mind. Its just the same gear grind... just with a different flavor. No true challenges. Nothing.

 

Sure, a lot of guilds could just skip and go kill the remaining 3 bosses whom seem to be easy... but whats the fun there? Don't we all play this for enjoyment? I know I personally don't get enjoyment from killing a boss after 2 attempts. It feels lackluster. I feel skimped.

 

If any of you are true progression raiders, you will understand how I feel. I crave for content to punch me back full force when I just tap at it. I want to be tested to my very limits and excel with what I am. Up until now, I feel my skills diminishing because there has been *nothing* to push me or any of you. We've all become used to this easy grind as if its just like waking up in the morning. That needs to change.

[Ansalem]

Aerroh keep in mind we have seen these encounters for hte last 9 months. Thats a huge advantage that you dont see in other games. So preparing for a nightmare mode over that insanely long period of time even with changes people are going to be very comfortable with the fights going in and adjust. DG is different because of the short enrage though. Even with people pulling out every single trick in game they arent getting this down. All the continued wipes do is justify and prove what we said from the start. Granted this fight allows you more dps time on kel while enraged but if 10% is the best people can do before the last guy is dead that means they are having the boss enraging at like 25-30% and that is just too much to deal with considering the boss speeds to 1 shot people. When people were wiping to tanks it wasnt a huge gap like that it was still possible. I mean honestly look at everything people are listing they are trying...tanks in power crystals/main stat armorings/grenades/NP buff etc...I mean come on surely that isnt how BW intended it. Now there is that faint and I mean faint chance that someone downs this before gearing up with 75s or a change to enrage timer, but the chance at that is so great that it would take divine intervention and a perfect RNG run to get it done. If someone does it they should get double the points for DG clear.

[Krazy_Karl]

I really wish people would stop comparing this to the "other" game. Things were different then and the number of players needing to work together were much much larger.

 

We are talking about an encounter for eight players. EIGHT.

 

There are FotM classes. There is a significant DPS disparity between classes. When you are designing an encounter, it cannot be for a finite set of combinations to be feasible, and the rest not, especially when you are talking about an encounter which is for eight players.

 

DnT and TGO have conceded we may have jumped to our conclusion hastily and will eat crow for it by using the term "mathematically impossible" given current gearing. However, the statement still stands, that it is "effectively impossible". It is the SECOND boss in the instance. There is no other boss to farm gear from!

 

If DG were the final boss in the instance, I would have zero issues with it.

 

Regards,

KK

Edited June 14, 2013 by Krazy_Karl

[umbak]

Given the number of mistakes we made and the rate Kel'sara's Hp goes down in that last phase It's perfectly plausable we can be 6% on enrage if we push it. On our enrage attempts we usually manage to push an extra 4% so that is cutting it incredibly fine but im confident with work it can be killed. I hope to actually kill it before any sort of nerf is given purely becouse of the amount of progress the group has made from 50% enrages on good attempts to 16% on incredibly messy and poor attempts.

[FridgeLM]

I'm willing to grant that there's a chance.

 

A chance analogous to running a marathon at the fastest pace you can manage while balancing a tray full of water glasses without spilling a drop through a minefield and at the end you get struck by lightning.

 

That's what killing this boss would be like. If the stars align for a guild and they're able to maintain near-perfect performance, they deserve everyone's accolades.

 

That doesn't mean the fight isn't broken as hell. Only someone willfully stupid could claim otherwise especially after having seen all the other nightmare bosses in this instance.

Edited June 14, 2013 by FridgeLM

[umbak]

IDD its not impossible just unprobable if it has to be changed and extra 25-30s on the enrage would do it.

[jasonthelamb]

in 46 pages did anyone actually look to see what the DPS has to be per DPS in order to down them before enrage?

[FridgeLM]

in 46 pages did anyone actually look to see what the DPS has to be per DPS in order to down them before enrage?

 

Come on dude. Think (or check) before you post.

[jasonthelamb]

Come on dude. Think (or check) before you post.

 

I just don't feel like going through forty-six pages of (probable) back-and-forth QQ/banter between people... I'd just like to know if someone determined it, which is why you said it was mathematically impossible.

[umbak]

People say around 2.9k per dps though given current tries i "think" about 2.7ish sustained with high burst on heriad and ciphas's shields "should" manage it. A better way of saying it is around 11.9-12.5k raid dps minimum (though that was with certain aoe abilities inflating the numbers) in my opinion at least.

I think other guilds will have more precise numbers.

Edited June 14, 2013 by umbak

[Sinbary]

After reading all the whine in this thread about it beeing to hard, or impossible, I realy do hope one of the guilds that stuck with it kills it before reset! Guilds have progressed from 70% ish wipes to 6%! And the so called best guilds (which seems to add down to the ones taking a day off to grind the instance) have given up.

 

I root for the people that stays on it! BW, please don't ruin their fun for the sake of the whiners!

 

For my own guild, we're a casual guild.So we'll probably cheat and skip to get the edge of gear. We'll see on Monday

[KeyboardNinja]

I just don't feel like going through forty-six pages of (probable) back-and-forth QQ/banter between people... I'd just like to know if someone determined it, which is why you said it was mathematically impossible.

 

It has been determined to *not* be mathematically impossible, just incredibly unbelievably difficult. It requires sustained DPS uptime from not only all four damage dealers but also the tanks, and sustained at a level which is very, very difficult to achieve given the movement and downtime mechanics in the fight.

 

Impossible? No. Overtuned? Probably. Overtuned relative to the rest of the instance? Without a doubt.

[Ansalem]

well they already put Nightmare SV up on PTS to start testing. Wonder how many guilds will skip DG now so they can get testing in before we end up with another broken encounter.

[paowee]

To the following participants and more: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Amw9QCWD3lrKdDJLc2VubW1KQVI5LU1SUHBhYXFkc2c#gid=0

Revenge

Unleashed

Suckafish

Lethal Dose Fifty

HATRED

Ambassadors

Saga

Origine-online

Unnecessary Girth

Nox Inferna

Notorious Synergy

Loom

Ewok'alypse Now

Solstice

Nightmare Council

Memories of Xendor

Ashen Orders

Space Wolves

Night's Radiance

Republic Gentlemen

House Stark

The Underworld Alliance

 

 

Is the new swtor hardcore end-game raiding progression standard and given and unspoken or spoken rule for:

 

when NiM SnV comes out, is to do Thrasher in HM and then continue through the rest of the instance in NiM? If we let what happened to NiM TFB push through.. well why not just do the same for every NiM operation that will come out LIVE in this game.

 

Genuine question For the sake of "the spirit of fun and competitive raiding" (whatever is LEFT of it in SWTOR at least.

 

HM Thrasher has the potential to mess up the tanks if it remains the same from the previous PTS.

Edited June 14, 2013 by paowee