Please nerf Flash Bang insta-AOE "mez"!

[NoTomorrow]

Our force speed gives us a little extra distance (I think) over covered escape, and can be talented to break roots. Meanwhile, covered escape not only breaks roots, it also DODGES EVERYTHING THAT OCCURS during its execution and provides 3s of entrench afterwards. On top of that, you also get 50% speed boost after leaving cover for 6s.

 

I never considered your posts worth replying to simply because you either lack knowledge or just tell lies to back up your arguments. Here is a hint: Covered escape is unable to break roots, it only ignores snares. . I wasn't sure if your place in my ignore list was warranted, but after this, I don't plan to read anything from you.

 

CC means "crowd control" or "control." snares and roots are every bit as much forms of CC as stuns and mezzes. And the classes with the most combat CC are the tanks, particularly the guardian tanks. shared tree sorcs/sages also have a boat load of CC (I haven't played the sin version to judge).

In this game crowd control and movement impairment are defined as two different things. If you want to include them both in your arguments just say: "CC + movement impairment stuff"

 

I don't object to snipers having a 30m aoe in-combat mezz that lasts a considerably long time (but not necessarily long for that kind of CC). what I object to is the fact that they -- alone of all the ranged dps ACs -- got to keep their ranged mezz (which was already the best in game for its aoe and/or instant aspects). how the hell is 30m flash more important to a sniper (any spec) than a gunnery commando? I can kind of understand its uselessness to a dot sage, but again...what about the lightning spec? they're ALL turrets. they ALL need to sit there and cast. the most laughable thing of all is that snipers are the least vulnerable ranged dps EVEN WITHOUT A MEZZ. argue that. I dare you. tell me how much more difficult it is to interrupt or approach a mando or sage than a sniper. yeah. right. you cannot. again. explain to me exactly how a sniper's play style -- what he's trying to do and what he needs to do in order to accomplish said goal -- is so fundamentally different from a middle tree mando or sorc. I dare you. and you cannot.

 

BW gutted every other ranged dps's CC. sniper's, who already had it best, were the only ones NOT to be nerfed. what sane human being WOULDN'T see this as favortism? this was a 1.4 event, btw. mandos didn't even have electro net at the time. what a joke. BW, you're a joke. go back to single player games.

 

I don't give a damn about what tools sorcs and commandos have, they can have whatever the devs desire to give them. Neither I cared about 1.4 commando and sorc CC range nerf because I was usually entrenched so their CC was useless anyway against me.

 

I know you don't like this disparity and I can relate to your feelings. If sniper has to be brought in the line with other ranged DPS solely based on this, I am ok with that. If the other RDPS are being brought to sniper performance i am ok with that too.

 

Since you are asking for an argument in defense of sniper uniqueness, i can give you one: our stun is melee range. See? 10m vs 4m might not seem a big deal, however, we snipers are often entrenched so quite often it would be a waste to close that extra distance just to get into melee stun range. Sorcs and Mandos however can stun from 10m.

Edited June 12, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[foxmob]

Since you are asking for an argument in defense of sniper uniqueness, i can give you one: our stun is melee range. See? 10m vs 4m might not seem a big deal, however, we snipers are often entrenched so quite often it would be a waste to close that extra distance just to get into melee stun range. Sorcs and Mandos however can stun from 10m.

rofl - a mando has to burn his stun just so he can cast his 1.5s abil or make use of the channeled snare (useless when a melee reaches 4m -- although a rooting punt would work better if avail). a sniper doesn't have that problem. he's in cover. better yet, he's ENTRENCHED. you don't NEED range to pull off your most basic rotational attacks. you cannot be interrupted (for the most part). maintaining range is actually LESS important to you (in MM) than to mr. gunnery mando. try again.

Edited June 12, 2013 by foxmob

[cashogy_reborn]

flashbang *is* the most powerful mez in the game. i would like to see concussion missile (merc's mez) be made into at least an AOE mez, and preferably instant but id take a 1.5s cast.

[NoTomorrow]

rofl - a mando has to burn his stun just so he can cast his 1.5s abil or make use of the channeled snare (useless when a melee reaches 4m -- although a rooting punt would work better if avail). a sniper doesn't have that problem. he's in cover. better yet, he's ENTRENCHED. you don't NEED range to pull off your most basic rotational attacks. you cannot be interrupted (for the most part). maintaining range is actually LESS important to you (in MM) than to mr. gunnery mando. try again.

 

LOL so you took it seriously then. I know you guys have been jealous of us since 1.2. I understand that, being a commando is difficult. The question you should ask yourself is what was the original purpose of commando DPS. I don't think you or anybody else wants commando be become a carbon copy of snipers.

 

You do often seem to discard those heals, because in the actual DPS racing that's nothing. But you cannot deny that you have those spells and we do not. Whether they are a good substitue for what snipers have, that's entirely a different topic.

Edited June 12, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[foxmob]

You do often seem to discard those heals, because in the actual DPS racing that's nothing. But you cannot deny that you have those spells and we do not.

 

/5char

 

edit: if I were you, I'd have mentioned the cleanse. that is actually useable -- although nothing close to balancing the disparity in interrupt/cc immunity and maintaining range. I actually think mando ability to maintain range is as it should be in 2.0. I also think sniper ability to maintain range AND ignore interrupts/cc is too much. and the fact of this flash bang thing on top of all of that is just proof positive that some dev is sucking on some sniper's big, black blaster rifle.

Edited June 12, 2013 by foxmob

[NoTomorrow]

/5char

 

That's your problem, you are fighting the snipers in the territory/domain where we are supposed to be the kings. You come and play by our rules and you wonder why you have a disadvantage. If you insist on staying in our line of sight, I don't need flashbang to make short work of you.

 

As a sniper i don't solo guard nodes for example. Because i know that's an assassin/concealment territory.

 

Edit:

The cleanse actually works very well against legshot. And since you have hydraulic overrides as well, that pretty much makes you completely indifferent to our movement impairment abilities.

 

maintain range AND ignore interrupts/cc is too much

I am not an expert on commando rotations. But for sniper regardless of spec, activation/channeling abilities are the main core of DPSing. Deny an ambush, and with it Followthrough is wasted, and probably even a later takedown.

 

As for range maintaining: the 2.0 brought to every kid in the worn a root breaker, root cleansing, root immunity ability. Hell, even rage can now break roots with obliterate. How much more ridiculous does that get? We were basically forced to get the covered escape to compensate for this.

Edited June 12, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[foxmob]

That's your problem, you are fighting the snipers in the territory/domain where we are supposed to be the kings. You come and play by our rules and you wonder why you have a disadvantage. If you insist on staying in our line of sight, I don't need flashbang to make short work of you.

 

As a sniper i don't solo guard nodes for example. Because i know that's an assassin/concealment territory.

 

luls. no. this isn't commando dpsing sniper 1v1. this is commando dpsing anyone and sniper dpsing anyone. they function THE SAME. stationary casters. their requisites for successful execution of their rotation are the same.

[NoTomorrow]

luls. no. this isn't commando dpsing sniper 1v1. this is commando dpsing anyone and sniper dpsing anyone. they function THE SAME. stationary casters. their requisites for successful execution of their rotation are the same.

 

Ok so you agree that even you as a commando ranged DPS class, the game does not intend for you to DPS race snipers while staying in their LOS. That's already a start.

 

As for their requisites for successful execution, there are different approaches. You could say the electronet is an active version of force leap denial compared to our passive cover system. The list can go on an on. The differences are many.

 

And you are trying to aggregate all this bunch of different abilities vs another bunch of different abilities and then say: THIS IS WHERE commando is UP compared to snipers. I don't know if that is the right thing to do to focus your attention on one specific ability when behind this is the synergy sniper abilities vs synergy of commando abilities.

 

PS: It's almost midnight in europe. See you tomorrow, IF there will be a tomorrow

Edited June 12, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[foxmob]

You could say the electronet is an active version of force leap denial compared to our passive cover system. The list can go on an on. The differences are many.

 

stop. I'm done listening to you. you're being ridiculous. electro net actively denies exactly one enemy from leaping to you once every 90s. cover -- not even entrench, mind you, simply cover...a stance that snipers need to be in ANYWAY to use most of their rotation -- denies multiple targets from leaping for an infinite period of time.

 

electro net is a devastating ability. it should NOT be on a shorter cd. I have argued against reducing the cd many times. however, to argue, as you do, that they work analogously is insulting.

 

as for hold the line? 6s. the equivalent of 1.5 stuns. entrench, 20s and stuns cannot neutralize anyway. once again, both classes work the same way: stationary (turret) casters. one class has vastly superior tools to do so than the other class. still waiting for exactly how their play styles are fundamentally different so as to account for snipers keeping that instant, aoe, 30m mezz. you just go ahead and sleep on it. my sub doesn't expire until sunday.

[BraaxusKun]

lol@people attacking the flashbang ability and claiming assassin has no cc compared to operatives/sniper

 

fact is they're different classes for a reason and something has to give them an advantage over the other classes - seriously concealment v deception in a wz the only advantage operative has over the assassin is aoe cc and airstrike, operative is bad enough compared to assassin as it is and now assassins crying about flashbang makes me lol

[Seireeni]

Maybe flashbang is Bioware's way to say "Hey, operative dps, you're not that bad! Okay, an assassin dps can do almost everything better than you can, but hey, you are far better at ninjacapping with that flashbang of yours!".

[Polymerize]

I'll say this again - NoTmrw is an awful poster child.

 

Snipers are OP. /thread

[Jadescythe]

Why is mez in quotes? Are you insinuating it's not a mez?

[cashogy_reborn]

You could say the electronet is an active version of force leap denial compared to our passive cover system. T

 

um.............

 

like really.... this is an actual, serious part of your post? b/c you have some mental capacity issues if you are even attempting to remotely compare electronet to the cover system.

 

does cover last for only 9s? does cover have a 90s cooldown? can the effects of cover be resisted by your opponent having a full resolve bar? does electronet provide us with interrupt immunity? does electronet prevent multiple opponents from leaping to you?

 

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[jedcjedcjedc]

You speak easily refutable nonsense:

 

Deception Assassin:

whirlwind

stun

lowslash

mindtrap

overload

spike

 

Oh and legshot is not a CC. so that's basicaly 4 CC vs 6 CC.

 

CC isnt just stun/mez, crowd control consists of anything keeping the "crowd" away from or otherwise unable to hit the party. ergo crowd "control". rooting them in place is a definite form of control. meanwhile mind trap cant even be used in combat or out of stealth, and ill laugh my *** off if you try to start channeling whirlwhind against me (also, snipers is an AoE from 30m away, while sorc/sins hit 1 from much closer.) not to mention that your KB doesn't knock them back nearly as far as a slinger, and doesnt root (slingers dont even have to spec for that like sorcs do IIRC)

 

so that's basically you don't know what your talking about. anything else you want to add, good sir?

 

@dcgreggorys, i havnt even added any slows to that list, not to mention the whole channeled mez thing just isnt gonna work in combat with decent players.

Edited June 12, 2013 by jedcjedcjedc

[foxmob]

CC isnt just stun/mez, crowd control consists of anything keeping the "crowd" away from or otherwise unable to hit the party. ergo crowd "control". rooting them in place is a definite form of control. meanwhile mind trap cant even be used in combat or out of stealth, and ill laugh my *** off if you try to start channeling whirlwhind against me. not to mention that your KB doesn't knock them back nearly as far as a slinger, and doesnt root (slingers dont even have to spec for that like sorcs do IIRC)

 

so that's basically you don't know what your talking about. anything else you want to add, good sir?

 

@dcgreggorys, i havnt even added any slows to that list, not to mention the whole channeled mez thing just isnt gonna work in combat with decent players.

I've actually successfully baited a ranged guard on ahg with crushing darkness and then whirlwinded him. it's not going to work on a good player, but it is a 3rd 8s mezz that a sin can apply. iunno how many times vanish has been down but I was still able to cap with WW. it's no flash bang, for sure. but how many good guards (i.e., in rated) are you going to ninja cap on anyway?

[JP_Legatus]

lol@people attacking the flashbang ability and claiming assassin has no cc compared to operatives/sniper

 

fact is they're different classes for a reason and something has to give them an advantage over the other classes - seriously concealment v deception in a wz the only advantage operative has over the assassin is aoe cc and airstrike, operative is bad enough compared to assassin as it is and now assassins crying about flashbang makes me lol

 

We've already done the comparison and sniper has more cc. Difference is mainly that our cc fills resolve bars and snipers does not.

Do dps operatives need some help? Absolutely. I'm all for dps operative buffs. But saying that operatives as a class couldn't use nerfing is also bs, since they have been the desired pvp rated healers for well over a year and are continuing to receive healing buffs. The healing needs to be toned down and the dps needs to go up.

In the case of sniper, they just need all kinds of nerfs, period.

And in the case of sins (my class of choice), I'd be all for a deception fix. Problem is people think deception is OP when it's really just OP in regs where you can exit combat every 15s. In rateds it is the EXACT same as it was on the PTS, the lowest dps spec of all the 8 classes. Because the recklessness talent will never come into play. And it was the LOWEST dps spec, the measurements were all out there for everyone to see.

Edited June 12, 2013 by JP_Legatus

[Volxen]

stop. I'm done listening to you. you're being ridiculous. electro net actively denies exactly one enemy from leaping to you once every 90s. cover -- not even entrench, mind you, simply cover...a stance that snipers need to be in ANYWAY to use most of their rotation -- denies multiple targets from leaping for an infinite period of time.

 

electro net is a devastating ability. it should NOT be on a shorter cd. I have argued against reducing the cd many times. however, to argue, as you do, that they work analogously is insulting.

 

as for hold the line? 6s. the equivalent of 1.5 stuns. entrench, 20s and stuns cannot neutralize anyway. once again, both classes work the same way: stationary (turret) casters. one class has vastly superior tools to do so than the other class. still waiting for exactly how their play styles are fundamentally different so as to account for snipers keeping that instant, aoe, 30m mezz. you just go ahead and sleep on it. my sub doesn't expire until sunday.

 

Maybe if people like you wouldn't fight against mercs getting any sort of buff (e.g., reducing the CD on electronet), mercs would actually be on par with snipers. Mercs are less powerful than the other 2 ranged classes, and all you suggest in every thread is bring the other ranged classes down to the level of mercs. All of your suggestions essentially amount to "I want all melee classes to be able to easily kill snipers".

 

If you are against buffing your own underpowered class that you supposedly main, then you certainly have no right to complain about the disparity between mercs and snipers.

[foxmob]

Maybe if people like you wouldn't fight against mercs getting any sort of buff (e.g., reducing the CD on electronet), mercs would actually be on par with snipers. Mercs are less powerful than the other 2 ranged classes, and all you suggest in every thread is bring the other ranged classes down to the level of mercs. All of your suggestions essentially amount to "I want all melee classes to be able to easily kill snipers".

 

If you are against buffing your own underpowered class that you supposedly main, then you certainly have no right to complain about the disparity between mercs and snipers.

 

listen to you. capt. bitter because I don't want to give mandos an iwin button. did you just happen to completely ignore the other ways I suggested buffing mandos that DOESN'T turn them into snipers with bigger guns? or are you still butthurt because I don't want telekinetics and gunnery to free cast for 20s straight with absolutely no recourse for anyone except run away?

 

• reduce cd on tech override OR make mando's mezz an instant (ikr? totally game breaking!)
  
• restore 30m range to cryo grenade
  
• make the medic version of reactive shield specable by the middle tree (uninterruptable but still stun/puntable for 15s).

 

but no. you're right. I don't think reducing the cd on electro net or giving mandos their own "entrench" is the right way to go. I must hate mandos and only pretend to play one so I can kill them on all my melee toons. you're pathetic.

Edited June 13, 2013 by foxmob

[Polymerize]

listen to you. capt. bitter because I don't want to give mandos an iwin button. did you just happen to completely ignore the other ways I suggested buffing mandos that DOESN'T turn them into snipers with bigger guns? or are you still butthurt because I don't want telekinetics and gunnery to free cast for 20s straight with absolutely no recourse for anyone except run away?

 

• reduce cd on tech override OR make mando's mezz an instant (ikr? totally game breaking!)
  
• restore 30m range to cryo grenade
  
• make the medic version of reactive shield specable by the middle tree (uninterruptable but still stun/puntable for 15s).

 

but no. you're right. I don't think reducing the cd on electro net or giving mandos their own "entrench" is the right way to go. I must hate mandos and only pretend to play one so I can kill them on all my melee toons. you're pathetic.

 

Boom goes the dynamite.

[mandoforlife]

alexsamma

those are general truths most of people on the forum know. That team work aspect was already very good in 1.7. Good healing + tanking combos were already in a very decent spot before if everybody knew what they were doing.

 

Even you acknowledge how we need the CC to separate the tank from the healer. But guess what, you are suggesting it in a thread that asks for the flashbang nerf. All the healers can cleanse my legshot without any problem, the stun is melee range only, flashbang is my only option for keeping them a little longer in my LoS.

 

Besides, flash bang can be cleansed by friendly tech healers, just as sorc can cleanse the warrior mezz from his team mates. It's not just a CC that can broken by damage and CC breaker only.

 

BTW, I am betting that quite many players didn't know that mezzes can be cleansed.

 

As a Merc, I always cleanse a friendly of flashbang. Usually the healer. I'm suprised at how few people actually know this can be done, but its been a little trick of mine for a long time now. I always cleanse leg shot from myself, but that Marksman slow is killer. It's well deserved though. I try to tell PUGs that they can cleanse flashbang when I don't have my stun breaker up, but.. you know how well PUGs listen

[Zunayson]

BTW, I am betting that quite many players didn't know that mezzes can be cleansed.

 

That's because quite many players don't have cleanse on their bars....

[cashogy_reborn]

That's because quite many players don't have cleanse on their bars....

 

sad but true.

 

i'll cleanse mezzes or slows/roots from allies if i can on my commando. its part of the classes group utility.

[Helig]

sad but true.

 

i'll cleanse mezzes or slows/roots from allies if i can on my commando. its part of the classes group utility.

Even ignoring team utility, I can't fathom Commando play without field aid. That's my primary tool for breaking physical/tech roots, which are the majority of roots in the game.

[NoTomorrow]

um.............

 

like really.... this is an actual, serious part of your post? b/c you have some mental capacity issues if you are even attempting to remotely compare electronet to the cover system.

 

does cover last for only 9s? does cover have a 90s cooldown? can the effects of cover be resisted by your opponent having a full resolve bar? does electronet provide us with interrupt immunity? does electronet prevent multiple opponents from leaping to you?

 

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

I think you are the one that took the post a little too seriously, not me. I bet you think that a Commando that just cleansed the mezz from his team mate is worse than a sniper and a mezzed partner which sniper cannot cleanse of. For you 2 vs 1 is still in favor of sniper because hey, sniper is better than commando.

 

Are you jealous of our cover system? The class asymmetry is here for the reason to provide more variety in gameplay. If you cannot use the tools that you have at your disposal with a class then perhaps you should drop that class in favor for another one.

 

I am not saying that elctronet is comparable to cover in its overall set of advantages, but the cover certainly won't deny stealthers from vanishing, reduce the mobility of healers, stop huttballers from leaping and so on.

Edited June 13, 2013 by NoTomorrow