How many are giving up on Shadow tanks?

[Kitru]

Apart from the HPS issue I think there's room for improvement in damage ratios, especially Force/Tech balance. Shadows, with Resil and 19% (I think?) base resist chance, and self-healing, have the best defenses against otherwise unmitigatable damage. EC NIM's Stormcaller was a good example of a point where Shadows did well, while other tanks crumpled before him.

 

Shadows have and had a 2% Resistance chance (VGs are the same, thanks to set bonus; Guardians used to not have any Resist chance, but now they have 5% so... ya). The reason why they did better than the other tanks was because they had a *slightly* higher I/E DR of 23% (Guardians had 21% and VGs had 19%; Guardians now have 24% so, another... ya) coupled with substantial self healing (which applies to all incoming damage; Guardians had their absorb shield which fulfilled much the same role to a lesser degree thanks to the smaller contributions of it) and Resilience (which allowed the Shadow to ignore the big hit when jumping back on and bought time for the healer to move).

 

On Vanguard cooldowns:

 

The arguments you make about what you can do with your Vanguard to "make up" for your lack of additional CDs isn't stuff unique to a VG. Everything you list except for Riot Gas (which is less "tank CD" as it is, "upgraded and consolidated 5% acc debuff other tanks get") is stuff universally available to all tanks. Bringing it up as if it justifies the lack of CD for VGs makes no sense whatsoever. It's like arguing that, because Shadows have DR CDs that can be used for spike occasions, they don't need to have their spikiness addressed (which is the argument provided to me by Jesse Sky; once again, dumbstruck): you're arguing that, because it's *possible* to work around a major weakness by blowing through resources that other tanks don't have to bother with, it's not a concern. If one tank has to sacrifice specific capabilities that *all* tanks should nominally be able to for common scenarios (i.e. not just a single gimmick for a fight), then it's not really a balanced construct. Any fight that requires/encourages CD use, VGs are at a pretty substantial disadvantage (especially now that Guardians have the same incoming damage profile and loads more CDs) because they don't have nearly as many to use.

 

Shadow Battle readiness gives +25% damage reduction, as does Vanguard Reactive Shield, both with a 2 min cd.

 

You're using a fallacious comparison. Just because both provide 25% additive DR doesn't mean that they contribute the same amount. 25% DR for a Shadow equates to a 39% reduction in K/E damage taken. 25% DR for a VG equates to ~51% reduction in K/E damage taken.

 

Shadow's Battle readiness also gives +25% health on 2 min cd

 

You need to get your numbers right. Battle Readiness provides 15% immediately and then a further 5% over 15 seconds, thanks to increased self healing, not 25%.

 

Vanguard's +20% health/1.583 min cd

 

If you're talking about Shoulder Cannon, you've got the CD wrong. Shoulder Cannon doesn't load all 4 of the missiles right off the bat. It takes 18 seconds for all 4 missiles to get loaded, which means that, if you blow through all of your missiles as soon as they're avail, you're looking at a 109 second CD (takes a second for you to fire off that last missile when it loads), which is only *slightly* faster than Battle Readiness. It's also predicated on you actually *hitting* the target so you've got a 22% chance of missing at least once (which is a pretty decent chance of losing a missile).

 

Despite the Vanguard's abilities being superior, as a Vanguard I am much more loathe to hit my Reactive Shield so I'd be willing to call this a tie.

 

Reactive Shield is better based more upon the higher natural DR of VGs than it is thanks to the longer duration, especially since that longer duration actually has a questionable contribution to ops survivability (the best use of a tank CD is to mitigate spikes of incoming damage, which an extra 3 seconds of duration on a 15 second duration isn't going to matter much for).

 

Shoulder Cannon, on the other hand, is essentially a break even. 94% accuracy for that 20% healing brings the contribution down to 18.8%. If you use all of your missiles within the 18 second load time, it'll equate to roughly 8% more than Battle Readiness. Of course, in doing so, you're likely to either end up wasting a good portion of that healing by being pressured based upon time or extending the CD. Either way, you're not likely to get everything you think you're getting out of it.

 

Of course, I wouldn't really consider Shoulder Cannon to be a CD. It's on a longish CD so I *guess* you could view it as such, but since it's multiple iterations of a small value it's more akin to a constant self healing benefit than it is a CD, like HSx3 TkT on a 2 min CD rather than the healing from Battle Readiness. Adrenaline Rush is more appropriately compared to the self healing from Battle Readiness. Shoulder Cannon is more just trying to provide something akin to what Guardians and Shadows get (Blade Barrier and all of the Shadow self healing).

 

Shadow's Deflection gives +50% def for 12 seconds on 2 min cd, against Vanguard Riot gas (30% acc debuff for 17 seconds on 1 min cd; or over 2 minutes, Vanguards get 34 seconds of 30% acc debuff).

 

Once again, let's look at actual contribution rather than flat values. A Shadow has a functional Defense chance of 27%. While Deflection is active, this gets brought up to 77%, which equates to a 68.5% decrease in incoming damage. A VG is going to have a 19% Defense chance. While Riot Gas is active, this gets brought up to 49%, which is a 37% decrease in incoming damage.

 

Normalize them for uptimes (10% for Deflection, 28.3% for Riot Gas), and you get 6.85% for Deflection and 10.47% for Riot Gas.

 

The Vanguard has no answer to Resilience (200% resist for 5 seconds, 30-60 second cooldown), though let's remember that Shadow has no answer to Adrenaline Rush (essentially lock yourself at 30% hp unless you're taking huge damage, 3 min cd). Resilience has much greater utility (let's be generous and say it can block up to 40k damage in some situations). I discussed self-healing in the top of this post, but I hope it should suffice to say Shadow wins this round hands down.

 

Once again, you're playing fast and loose with the numbers here. First off, Resilience is pretty much *never* going to have a 30 second CD. Normally, it'll average ~40-45 seconds. At best, it can get down to 36 seconds (1.5 * (60 / (1.5 + 1)) if you get a def/shield *every GCD* *as soon as* the ICD from Elusiveness ends, which is pretty much never gonna happen.

 

Secondly, Adrenaline Rush has a 3 minute CD which only activates as soon as you're sub-30% (which means that it's only useful for situations where you spike down to below 30%, which is a lot less likely for VG than it is for a Shadow thanks to the VG incoming damage profile). I'm not sure what the explicit healing value of Adrenaline Rush is while you're sub-30% (it feels like 5%/sec, but I'm not entirely sure about that since I've only had it proc as such whenever I drop that low and a healer is around), but, even then, the value is highly variable since you're only getting 2%/sec whenever you're *above* 30%.

 

Assuming you do actually drop below 30% every 3 minutes (not very likely), you're very unlikely to get more than just 2-3 ticks of the big healing while in an ops environment thanks to healers. The contribution is likely closer to ~20% every 4-5 minutes (and that's giving a likelihood of being sub-30% *way* higher than is likely; my VG pretty much never drops below 50% except whenever the healers are dead) than it is to what you seem to be describing.

 

So comparing armor adrenals, my Vanguard's Rakata absorb adrenal (+1575 armor) pushes him from 50.81% DR to 56.86 = +6.05 armor. Whereas using an exotech absorb adrenal (+1675 armor) pushes my undergeared Shadow from 32.15 DR to 42.79 = +10.64 DR.

 

As it should be said, flat values don't matter. Contributed values do. For a VG at ~51% K/E baseline, 6% more K/E DR equates to 12.25% less damage taken. For a Shadow at 35.5% K/E DR, 9% more K/E DR equates to only 8.6% less damage taken. Shadows actually get *less* out of the armor adrenal than VGs do (mainly because we don't have the same passive +DR that VGs do; Shadows get +4%, VGs get +9%).

 

What I mean to illustrate is that Vanguards do have cooldowns, and they're actually quite similar to those of the Shadow. The "Vanguards have bad cooldowns" narrative is another vast exaggeration, something that people use to distill the game's mechanics to a level that they can understand. And don't even get me started on "Shadow utility."

 

In order for you to make your argument, you're operating under a non-standard interpretation of the given abilities. You're assuming that Riot Gas should be treated as a CD whereas most people would treat it as a constant benefit averaged over time (thanks to the high uptime), balanced against the 5% acc debuff provided by Guardians and Shadows (especially since said debuffs don't actually stack). You're treating the Shoulder Cannon as a CD rather than as a tangential self heal on a bonus damage/threat mechanism, which is, honestly, how it gets used almost every time in my experience. Even if you use it as a CD, it's all kinds of wonky when you get healers involved since there's a delay between its use and when you get the effects. Adrenaline Rush is *drastically* different than you seem to be gauging it, especially since VGs are almost *never* sub-30% and the only times they ever get that low is whenever there's heavy burst damage (which is when it's next to useless).

 

If you remove Shoulder Cannon and Riot Gas (which most people *would* considering the given effects and use constructs), VGs have only Adrenaline Rush (a substandard self heal CD; Battle Readiness is going to trash it, honestly) and Reactive Shield (excellent DR, but, compared to Deflection, not as useful). The only way you can make a convincing argument is by twisting the interpretation of "tank CD".

 

But until I see parses showing otherwise, I think a Vanguard who cycles his cooldowns can achieve lower dtps than a Guardian who holds all of them in reserve.

 

As grall already pointed out, you're making an inconsistent comparison to validate your argument. If you're talking about a VG who cycles CDs constantly, you should make the same case for a Guardian (or Shadow) that does the same. A VG who behaves in the same manner as a Guardian or Shadow (either no CD use or constant CD use) is going to have a more stable incoming damage profile but end up requiring more healing over time (the former demonstrated by the mean mitigation calculations and the latter demonstrated by the VGs CDs themselves operating by increasing static mitigation as opposed to RNG mitigation).

 

Here's some abilities that still are lackluster and could use refinement: Storm

 

Storm is the VG version of Force Leap. The free Explosive Surges are the functional derivation of the Focus that Knights generate with Force Leap. Since VGs already *start* the fight with full resources (rather than having to generate it), there isn't much need to provide a similar benefit, hence the free Explosive Surges (and, btw, before you start talking smack about Explosive Surge, be thankful you're not a Shadow because Whirling Blow is *way* worse than Explosive Surge).

 

I also think that the new trend is for AOES to be elemental (TFB's scream, Thrasher's roar) and this is a good place to give Vanguards a buff.

 

I have to wonder *** you were smoking when you came up with this argument. You already recognize that VGs are the explicit best tanks against K/E AoEs (because, you know, high Shield/Abs and high K/E DR) and now you want them to be the best against I/E AoEs as well? The advantage of VGs is that they're simple. You're now trying to provide other advantages like "best AoE damage tanks" for no real reason other than an arbitrary desire to get buffs.

 

the final place where I can see room for changes is with Reactive Shield.

 

Your change here is... not likely to happen.

 

First off, Reactive Shield is the only *true* tank CD available to VGs. Turning it into a pseudo-CD would prevent them from having any kind of burn phase mitigation mechanism (for stuff like the TfB Tantrum) which is kind of *required* for tanks to have. Secondly, there are no talents in the game that completely change an ability (reducing CD while reducing effectiveness in order to change the fundamental use paradigm of it). Unless you can manage to convince the developers to alter *multiple* explicit design choices (no talents that completely rebuild an ability and tanks all have at least 1 true tank CD), I wouldn't hold my breath.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Kitru

[Vaidinah]

I can't believe the "skill" argument regarding Guardians and Shadows is happening again. It's a complete joke that people are talking about Shadows being the "skill" tanks, regardless of how the intent of their design. Anyone who has read design documents for pretty much any game knows that the initial design diverges greatly from the end result.

 

The fact of the matter is that for optimal (or near-optimal) play, Guardians have a much higher skill cap than Shadows. Anyone who plays both these tanks at that level knows this and it was especially evident pre-2.0. It's ironic that the only people who seem to think that Shadows were ever actually "skill" tanks are those who wouldn't be able to cut it pre-2.0 as a hybrid Guardian/Juggernaught tank, much less play anywhere near optimally. Such people don't have a *clue* on what constitutes difficulty.

 

For all you Shadow/Assassin tanks who want to give up on your favorite class because you think it's gimped, the problem is *you*. Do not attempt to blame Bioware for your inability to rise to an actual challenge. The worst part is that Shadows aren't even a challenge after 2.0; they are simply not superior to every other option and are still very effective and yet this is what happens. This thread and others like it just shows that when the playing field is close to being balanced (and post-2.0, class balance is remarkably even), those players who were carried by their class fall straight on their face.

[throwdownj]

I really dont get all the arguing. It really just comes down to: if played right some things outright can kill shadows with no player fault what so ever where I dont think there is one situation that if played right has anything close to a decent chance to kill the other 2. It doesnt matter which is best tank or worst tank cause no one really cares as long as you are not causing wipes and shadows being played correctly are still causing wipes while the other 2 are not. This is the problem and thats it.

[MGNMTTRN]

I do appreciate people poring over my long post, and thanks for revising my posted values. I am not interested in spreading misinformation, and if that means my whole post must be dissected in the public arena, so be it.

 

As grall already pointed out, you're making an inconsistent comparison to validate your argument. If you're talking about a VG who cycles CDs constantly, you should make the same case for a Guardian (or Shadow) that does the same. A VG who behaves in the same manner as a Guardian or Shadow (either no CD use or constant CD use) is going to have a more stable incoming damage profile but end up requiring more healing over time (the former demonstrated by the mean mitigation calculations and the latter demonstrated by the VGs CDs themselves operating by increasing static mitigation as opposed to RNG mitigation).

I compared a cooldown-cycling Vanguard to a non-cycling Guardian, and I claimed that the cycling Vanguard would take less damage. I am sorry if I appeared duplicitous when I broached this topic; what I meant to argue was that the "least damage taken" medal should not always be awarded to the Guardian. Depending upon playstyle, it may be the Guardian or the Vanguard. When I was writing that section of my post. I was attempting to head off the developing myth that Guardians strictly take less damage.

 

Which brings me to my next point: obviously I disagree strongly with some of you on what constitutes a "cooldown" and when you should be using your cooldowns. I think abilities with long cooldown times (45+ sec) and significant damage reduction/healing should all be considered cooldowns (and I even consider the Sniper roll, 200% resist for 1 second every 20 seconds, to be a defensive cooldown). And I do think this game's design invites creative thought, and one way in which this is achieved is by having a spectrum of abilities, and by setting up themes that are varied and in some cases outright broken; some abilities are clearly archetypal "cooldowns" (Guardian 3 minute CDs) and some are on the borderline between cooldown and... whatever other class of damage mitigation/healing abilities apparently exist (Guardian threat drop, Guardian group shield from AOE taunt). To be sure the Vanguard has a shortage of panic buttons, and their one panic button (if it can even be called that) is also the AC's only predictive mitigation mechanism (Reactive Shield).

 

As mentioned, Adrenaline Surge is unreliable and to simplify things I'd be willing to pretend it doesn't even exist. I wish we got the +15% hp on 2 min cooldown back because overall it gave much higher self-healing in PVE, even for tanks. Because I hit it whenever I was at 90% health.

 

Shadows have and had a 2% Resistance chance (VGs are the same, thanks to set bonus; Guardians used to not have any Resist chance, but now they have 5% so... ya). The reason why they did better than the other tanks was because they had a *slightly* higher I/E DR of 23% (Guardians had 21% and VGs had 19%; Guardians now have 24% so, another... ya)

Oh. That is terrible. They shouldn't have taken I/E mitigation away from you people. Seriously.

 

The arguments you make about what you can do with your Vanguard to "make up" for your lack of additional CDs isn't stuff unique to a VG. Everything you list except for Riot Gas (which is less "tank CD" as it is, "upgraded and consolidated 5% acc debuff other tanks get") is stuff universally available to all tanks. Bringing it up as if it justifies the lack of CD for VGs makes no sense whatsoever.

No, that was not my argument. My argument was this:

1) the Vanguard and Shadow abilities outlined in my post are variations on a theme, apart from Resilience and Adrenaline Surge

2) If Vanguards and Shadows have similar abilities, apart from Resilience and Adrenaline Surge, then how can only Vanguards have bad cooldowns?

Your points about what constitutes a "cooldown" are unaffected by this straw man, and I did address (though not really diminish) them above. The disagreements we have on cooldown usage are captured in two questions which we apparently disagree on: 1) whether a tank should use all but 1-2 panic buttons, and 2) and whether long-term mitigation/healing can be called a cooldown. I accept that I am in the minority here and some of you consider me outright wrong, but again... look at my dtps.

 

Storm is the VG version of Force Leap. The free Explosive Surges are the functional derivation of the Focus that Knights generate with Force Leap. Since VGs already *start* the fight with full resources (rather than having to generate it), there isn't much need to provide a similar benefit, hence the free Explosive Surges (and, btw, before you start talking smack about Explosive Surge, be thankful you're not a Shadow because Whirling Blow is *way* worse than Explosive Surge).

I'll give you Explosive Surge if you give me Force Breach and Slow Time; I'd even trade Explosive Surge for Smash. I just want instant aoe threat that isn't gimped, and in my opinion this is actually a real problem in HM FP pulls. Specific examples: In the trash before 16man HM Firebrand and Stormcaller I've thrown my sticky, then a Slinger threw his frag grenade and immediately got two aoes centered on himself and therefore all the healers and most of the ranged dps. 4 casualties because frag grenade is almost instant, and sticky has a delay before it generates appreciable threat. Also in the rat pack before Thrasher: throw sticky, sent jumps in and doesn't even need to smash; he's in melee range and I'm not, and we're both at 1 threat. He is vaporized.

 

I guess I should be Storming in, then spamming explosive surge until I get Pulse Cannon procs. Ugh.

I have to wonder *** you were smoking when you came up with this argument. You already recognize that VGs are the explicit best tanks against K/E AoEs (because, you know, high Shield/Abs and high K/E DR) and now you want them to be the best against I/E AoEs as well? The advantage of VGs is that they're simple. You're now trying to provide other advantages like "best AoE damage tanks" for no real reason other than an arbitrary desire to get buffs.

The TFB's blast is apparently a single-target attack but I did leave out the Dread Guard's lightning field. I'm not being tactically ignorant when I say this: Thrasher's internal roar and the Dread Guard's elemental lightning field are the only attacks I can think of in modern content that will be significantly changed. And that was my explicit problem when I was trying to do the nightmare Dread Guard; I used my Reactive Shield in the first lightning phase, and had no cooldowns up to mitigate the second lightning field. Similarly, Thrasher's roar is another phase when I would have popped a light elemental/force/aoe-reducing cooldown, if I had had one. This passive buff removes a phase when Vanguards would have needed a cooldown, so it reduces the Vanguard's need for more cooldowns. It's also in the passive Vanguard spirit. It's also in line with the thematic/RP idea of a Vanguard, handling high explosives in melee range. As buffs go, this is one of the weakest that could be possibly added. In a thread where we're talking about Guardian buffs, you take issue with THIS buff? The suggestions of HtL modifications are vastly more unlikely because that would, in my opinion of BioWare's opinion, push clickers past their apm limits.

Edited June 17, 2013 by MGNMTTRN

[hobbesmaster]

I really dont get all the arguing. It really just comes down to: if played right some things outright can kill shadows with no player fault what so ever where I dont think there is one situation that if played right has anything close to a decent chance to kill the other 2. It doesnt matter which is best tank or worst tank cause no one really cares as long as you are not causing wipes and shadows being played correctly are still causing wipes while the other 2 are not. This is the problem and thats it.

 

Yeah. So as far as I can tell the best solution is something that allows you a guaranteed absorb for one attack. Perhaps change dark ward so that the first hit on dark ward is always absorbed.

[kwestone]

For all you Shadow/Assassin tanks who want to give up on your favorite class because you think it's gimped, the problem is *you*. Do not attempt to blame Bioware for your inability to rise to an actual challenge. The worst part is that Shadows aren't even a challenge after 2.0; they are simply not superior to every other option and are still very effective and yet this is what happens. This thread and others like it just shows that when the playing field is close to being balanced (and post-2.0, class balance is remarkably even), those players who were carried by their class fall straight on their face.

 

Vaidinah while I agree with some of your points, I have to disagree with this part in particular. I know your raid team, and have some DPS that ran with you pre-2.0 so I do know you are a quality tank, however, you dont run an assassin as far as I know and therefor your opinions in this thread dont make a lot of sense to me. Are you arguing that all these tanks and mathematicians are incorrect and just really bad at the game and you are so good you can say so without any actual math?

 

I run both an assassin and a juggernaut and can say that the assassin is too spikey. Pre-2.0 I would agree that Juggernaut/Gaurdians were more skill capped, post 2.0 its a joke. No more worries about threat or rage, more cooldowns that PTs or assassins, and solid mobility with intercede and force leap. The only gripe juggs really have now is no CC which I think is lame but overall your mitigation is just better. Next post put up some numbers as KBN and Kitru have that back up their points or stop trolling the thread.

[dipstik]

so now the tank with the most damage reduction and highest pre heals/absorb mitigation is qq'ing.

 

we are trying to get shadow changes and all this does is make it seem like we are crying wolf.

[Docmal]

I have mained a shadow in all progression content since release. I love the class/spec. However, I have all 3 tanks and play them all regularly. I am switching my main to the Guardian. It is a better class for progression raiding at the moment.

[Hockaday]

Once again, it's not that Shadows need a boost to our *mitigation*. It's that we need our mitigation *shifted around*, which is a completely different thing. It may seem like I'm talking semantics here, but it's a *very* important distinction.

 

You are talking semantics. Shifting Mitigation which would provide a real world boost...is a boost.

 

Also, I don't believe Hybrid tank jug was ever better. As much as that was preached, I have never seen it work. Agro was lower as a hybrid, I've seen jugs wipe raids in that spec pre 2.0 I tried it myself, and switched back to full immortal as agro was indeed better. Still terrible. But better.

 

My co-tank in my OP is a PT, it -seems- to me PTs are fine. Don't quote me per se, I don't know the NM Mode numbers...but I believe jugs have the same damage profile as PTs (in real world, PTs need much higher dtps to come ahead). So it seems that Jug mitigation needs to be reduced. I won't say how, as I am not studied enough in this to suggest something other than raw stat decrease...I'm sure others could create better ways with proof behind it.

 

I believe a boost to Sins and PTs would be a mistake. Not game breaking, but a mistake. I would rather them balance Jug / Sin than the Boost total mit of PT and Sin. As it stands most things seem in balance...besides Sin dps (from the parses I've seen, they're 300-500+ dps behind)

Edited June 18, 2013 by Hockaday

[Vaidinah]

Vaidinah while I agree with some of your points, I have to disagree with this part in particular. I know your raid team, and have some DPS that ran with you pre-2.0 so I do know you are a quality tank, however, you dont run an assassin as far as I know and therefor your opinions in this thread dont make a lot of sense to me. Are you arguing that all these tanks and mathematicians are incorrect and just really bad at the game and you are so good you can say so without any actual math?

 

I run both an assassin and a juggernaut and can say that the assassin is too spikey. Pre-2.0 I would agree that Juggernaut/Gaurdians were more skill capped, post 2.0 its a joke. No more worries about threat or rage, more cooldowns that PTs or assassins, and solid mobility with intercede and force leap. The only gripe juggs really have now is no CC which I think is lame but overall your mitigation is just better. Next post put up some numbers as KBN and Kitru have that back up their points or stop trolling the thread.

 

I'm not sure who you are, but you are incorrect in saying that I don't have an Assassin tank. I have had one for several months now and I actually use it over my Juggernaught most of the time for my team. This is because my co-tank is a Juggernaught so there are great benefits to having both of these tanks. I also play with another team that does 16 man every week where spikiness is far more of a danger than 8 man and both our Shadow and Vanguard tanks randomly explode due to bad RNG. Yes, the Shadow blows up a bit more, but that should be an acceptable trade-off for that particular class.

 

I have looked at this thread and the other ones discussing tank spikiness and it's clear that while the math people are putting up is actually good, the conclusions people draw from them are not. The argument that Shadow/Assassin tanks *specifically* have a real problem with spikiness that needs to be addressed by Bioware is not supported by the evidence provided. Tank spikiness is not a significant problem for any tank in any 8 man raid and is only an issue for 16 man groups. Even then, that is a problem mostly with the new Nightmare difficulty content with any tank and again, in 16 man groups only. The real issue is that the damage in the new Nightmare mode content in 16 man is not broken up into enough attacks to give tanks a better chance at not exploding due to bad RNG. Regardless, that is a discussion for another thread.

 

The problem with *this* thread is people giving up on a class because it is no longer very effective with minimal skill needed. Worse yet, some of these same people preach to their choir about how they are "skill" tanks and think of themselves as superior to other classes when they don't have a clue how to play at least one of the other classes they deride. This discussion is akin to pre-2.0 Pyrotech Powertech DPS players calling out pre-2.0 Operative DPS players for not being as "skilled" as themselves because they did not put out the same amount of damage. The sheer level of arrogance and misinformation from fanboys like Kitru is appalling.

 

To put it simply, it is not appreciated when there are people discussing matters when they don't have a clue and then being a jerk on top of it just takes the cake.

[SamuelAU]

I don't want to give up on my shadow tank. It was my first 50 and I still enjoy playing it. However, seeing my raid tank (shadow) run in and get hit for almost 17k on our first pull of NiM TWH doesn't look good.

[Kitru]

IThe problem with *this* thread is people giving up on a class because it is no longer very effective with minimal skill needed. Worse yet, some of these same people preach to their choir about how they are "skill" tanks and think of themselves as superior to other classes when they don't have a clue how to play at least one of the other classes they deride.

 

First off, I've not said *anywhere* that I'm giving up on my Shadow tank. It's still my main, and it will continue to be as long as I play TOR. I love the Shadow playstyle. My problem is that the Shadow playstyle is no longer tenable since, whenever I die, it wasn't due to a lack of skill; it was due *entirely* to bad RNG. It's not fun to play a tank that will die randomly.

 

Acting as if we're getting uppity because we're no longer top dogs and comparing us to DPS PT/VGs and Op/Scoundrels is patently wrong. Those DPS were still capable of DPS, if at a substandard level (that should still have been addressed). Stuff would still die *eventually* and things were still within their control. It wasn't as if they were only randomly capable of pushing their attack buttons. Shadow tanks are in a state where it's entirely likely that, in a night of raiding, you're going to drop dead with no warning and no capability to counteract it (since it's not like we can influence the RNG). Shadows aren't upset that we're substandard. We're upset that we have *no control over it*.

 

Secondly, Shadows were not "very effective with minimal skill needed". Shadows were only ever effective when you actually know how and when to abuse the tools given to Shadows. You're also conflating the *this* issue (i.e. "skill tanks should be explicitly better from a theoretical standpoint to provide a reward for the higher skill requirement) with the explicit issue that, right now, Shadows are, explicitly, underperforming entirely due to the spikiness issue. You can claim that it's due to the shift on content design (which partly it is, but that's only half of the problem; as stated before, the other half is that the gulf between Shadows and the other tanks has only gotten larger with the stabilization of Guardians), but, first off, the devs are *way* less likely to go back and modify content explicitly to correct for problems with a single class that could be fixed more effectively by changing the class itself and, secondly, it still doesn't address the actual math demonstrating that there is an explicit imbalance. Even if they *fixed* the content, even splitting attacks, it wouldn't be reducing said spikiness; instead it would just be making it less likely. You're still going to have Shadows killed entirely due to RNG thanks to the spike heavy model of current content design (which is pretty much *required* to pressure the absurdly stable incoming damage profiles of VGs and Guardians).

 

Third, I find it kind of offensive that you think that I don't have a Guardian or a VG. I have both. I've tanked with both of them *extensively*, both before and after 2.0 landed. I can make the arguments about them because I've actually *played* them. Guardians and VGs, compared to Shadows, are incredibly simple; Guardians especially so since the 2.0 changes.

 

Fourth, it's also not as if Shadows are coming out of nowhere and describing ourselves as the "skill tanks". Multiple devs have called Shadows the "skill tanks" multiple times, citing their superior performance in top end content as the logical extension of their role as skill tanks: the *reason* Shadows were awesome up until 2.0 released was a conscious design decision. Hell, Shadows kept pushing the envelope so much that they had to continually *nerf* Shadows since they hadn't properly accounted for how much we could break the game. They *continue* to refer to Shadows as the "skill tanks" even after 2.0 released, which means that the concept hasn't changed (unless they decided to redefine "skill tank" as "rewards skill with RNG death"). They have *also* admitted that they don't (or, at least, didn't) have the tools to properly calculate and model the impact of spikiness, and there's a *lot* of highly compelling evidence that Guardians are *massively* overpowered at the moment. Jesse Sky even told me that he honestly thought that Saber Reflect was pushing the envelope on overpowered. That's pretty damned good evidence when a *developer* thinks that an ability might be just a *bit* too good (not to mention all of the mitigation math that can't really be argued with about how Guardians are just disgustingly awesome).

 

The stuff we're referencing is either based off of math or explicit developer commentary/statements. Even more so, the math we're using is actually supported on multiple fronts by community feedback (and not just from Shadows; even Guardian/PTs who tank with Shadows notice that Shadows in better gear than them will die when they'll be totally fine) so it's not just theory: it's theory supported by practice. We're not pulling it out of thin air. The only piece of conjecture we're using is that assumption that "skill tank" is still supposed to confer superior top end capability, which is a logical construct that has a historical basis.

 

Also, as to your comment that tank spikiness is only a problem in 16m content, I'd suggest you actually check out how Shadows perform in the relevant spike situations when said Shadows *aren't* tremendously overgeared. Thrasher and Operations Chief spike just as hard in 8m as they do in 16m so it's not simply an 8m problem. 16m gets referenced because, in NiM TfB, where the spikes aren't *nearly* as intense as in S&V, that's where the problem is. Of course, in NiM TfB, Shadows are having problems for more reasons than just spikiness (not having a leap for mechanics that are pretty much *designed* around the assumption that you have one). I'd also suggest you look at performance in HM FPs (once again, look at people that are *appropriately geared* rather than horribly overgeared for it); Shadows spike *way* harder and are *way* more likely to die in those. Spikiness isn't just a 16m issue unless the only way you're capable of looking at content is if you're always in BiS gear rather than the appropriate level of entry grade gear that it's actually designed around.

[Leafy_Bug]

Against my better judgement, I invested my unclaimed underworld tokens in my shadow and crafted a few things for my sentinel. I gave my shadow even more mitigation and now I regret it because of how I died on thrasher the other day due to bad RNG and how Sunder killed me through all my cooldowns (no resilience) with a 57k hit. I explained the whole scenario in the shadow tank spikiness thread.

 

 

What yanks my chain even more is that in BIS 72 underworld I cannot offer a safety net to the inexperienced healers in my guild. I have guildies who want to try the hardest content and we mix and match our progression teams. They come to the top tier raiding team, they heal my tank and the guardian tank I raid with. The first thing I have to tell them is this :' I am a shadow tank, while I take less damage than the guardian tank, please be careful when you see me dropping badly in HP, i am in my spiky phase and if you don't focus on me I will die'. Of course, they are not used to the incoming damage in these types of raids and I die 2-3 times per boss or even on trash. Do you think they have issues healing the BIS 72 guardian tank? Not at all, I remember in one SV HM with two new healers, I died in total of 7 times before we got to the final boss because the shadow does not forgive and is not 'hardcore raiding 101 for healers' suitable. The healers got frustrated because they thought they had no skill and I was getting annoyed after my 5th death as well. So enjoyment when raiding was not at its highest and it was because of my shadow tank.

 

 

 

Another example comes to mind Operator IX in TFB HM. I was the best geared tank in that ops, I had another shadow tank with me who had some arkanian and things were not easy. The same inexperienced healers healed me and of course they thought they are okay because I am BIS 72. I will describe a few of my attempts. First attempt, after yellow phase, with two regulators on me, the boss spawns, i had 25% HP, the other tank had even less, I pull the whole room, aoe taunt, i pop all my cool downs, resilience, deflection, adrenal, battle readiness, I tell the other tank to take the boss of me, what happens? I get killed with 2k by a stupid add. Message was something with maul. We try this fight again, same scenario, i am still low on HP, but saved all my cooldowns, I pull the whole room, other shadow takes the boss, its a MIRACLE!!!! I survived!Of course, with more experienced healers, you will not pull two regulators, 1 boss, all the adds on you at less than 30% of your hp.

 

 

While some who read that will blame the healers and say learn to play, these runs were intended for the healers to learn to play and see what our regular healers have to deal with. Of course, with practice and lots of repairs on my part they will get the experience to heal me and not lose me as much but I ask myself is this really necessary because nobody will say that healers who finish content with a shadow tank are better than those who don't use a shadow tank. Content cleared is content cleared no matter the composition.

 

 

 

BioWare you have to address your shadow tank. I understand that you will lose credibility after all the nerfs you did to this class but you know what they say, you have the noodle of doom, you also suffer the consequences. WE ARE NOT ASKING FOR GAME BREAKING CHANGES! We do not want other tanks to be crap and shadows to be uber gods. We want to stay spiky compared to the other tanks but not like we are now. We also want you to test your ops with shadow tanks as well and keep personal bias, hey Jesse, out of your design.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[Kitru]

BioWare you have to address your shadow tank.

 

Considering all of the threads about Shadow tank spikiness, all of the new tools and ideas that have been put out, and the sheer volume of people talking about how bad the situation is and demanding/recommending changes, I would be surprised if Shadow tank spikiness wasn't at least *addressed* in 2.2.1. If not, then 2.2.2. There's just too much evidence and too much community blowback *not* to.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Kitru

[Vaidinah]

Acting as if we're getting uppity because we're no longer top dogs and comparing us to DPS PT/VGs and Op/Scoundrels is patently wrong. Those DPS were still capable of DPS, if at a substandard level (that should still have been addressed). Stuff would still die *eventually* and things were still within their control. It wasn't as if they were only randomly capable of pushing their attack buttons. Shadow tanks are in a state where it's entirely likely that, in a night of raiding, you're going to drop dead with no warning and no capability to counteract it (since it's not like we can influence the RNG). Shadows aren't upset that we're substandard. We're upset that we have *no control over it*.

 

The analogy is pre-2.0, the PTs were Shadows and the Operatives were hybrid Juggernaughts. That is the massive level of skill difference between them in terms of being able to play their role both effectively and optimally. Pre-2.0, Operatives had to be extremely disciplined with resource management and play at a far higher level than most other DPS to do anywhere near as much damage as them. The same was true for hybrid Juggernaughts to perform their role. Shadows had an extremely simple rotation and resource management just like Pyrotech PTs did and could do their jobs very well with almost no thought involved.

 

Third, I find it kind of offensive that you think that I don't have a Guardian or a VG. I have both. I've tanked with both of them *extensively*, both before and after 2.0 landed. I can make the arguments about them because I've actually *played* them. Guardians and VGs, compared to Shadows, are incredibly simple; Guardians especially so since the 2.0 changes.

 

I know you have a Guardian. So what? Having a class and being actually *good* at it are completely different things. Based on your comments in this thread and in the one in the "Fixing Shadow Spikiness" one, you are not anywhere near being a skilled Guardian. Thus, you don't have any qualifications to discuss whether that class takes skill or not because you lack anything but a superficial understanding how to play the class. You played the inferior version of the Guardian (full defense over hybrid) because the hybrid was beyond your skill level.

 

The stuff we're referencing is either based off of math or explicit developer commentary/statements. Even more so, the math we're using is actually supported on multiple fronts by community feedback (and not just from Shadows; even Guardian/PTs who tank with Shadows notice that Shadows in better gear than them will die when they'll be totally fine) so it's not just theory: it's theory supported by practice. We're not pulling it out of thin air. The only piece of conjecture we're using is that assumption that "skill tank" is still supposed to confer superior top end capability, which is a logical construct that has a historical basis.

 

The community has yet to come with a good argument as to why Shadows need a buff over any other tanking class. Cherry picking data and ignoring anything that contradicts people's pre-conceived notions does not make for a strong case. There are plenty of Shadow/Assassin tanks that have no significant issues and have reported as such. Both kills on Nightmare TFB Dread Guards had an Assassin tank and that is the hardest content in the game by far. Even if you want to make an exception for that particular fight, both guilds that did this went through and beat the rest of Nightmare TFB with the same tanks as far as I saw. Thus, if the top guilds in the world can do this for a world first, the argument falls apart (at least for 8 man).

[WheresMyWhisky]

The problem with *this* thread is people giving up on a class because it is no longer very effective with minimal skill needed. Worse yet, some of these same people preach to their choir about how they are "skill" tanks and think of themselves as superior to other classes when they don't have a clue how to play at least one of the other classes they deride.

 

I have all 3 tanks and will not be giving up on my shadow unless I have to as its been my main since launch i.e. the rest of the raid team ask me too. (I do raid on my Guardian every week for one of our other raid groups)

 

As has been said pre 2.0 the Guardian was lot of fun you actually had to play it well to keep threat. However post 2.0 I don't think either the shadow or the guardian is hard to play for players that actually understand the classes so I really don't see a need for an argument over what's harder to play at this point.

 

With regards to the spike damage I have to disagree about you saying its not an issue as I can literally lol my way through SnV on my Guardian but have practically worn out the key my med pack is bound to when playing my shadow. Terminate is a great example of this as we have discovered its a ranged attack so I cannot resilience it so if I get unlucky it hits my shadow for 32.5k but guardian for about 22.5k that's an insane difference its almost certain death for my shadow but my guardian laughs it off. The attack chains on thrasher are another good example where RnG can just wipe out a Shadow but I cannot remember ever dying there on my Guardian. I am not suggesting Shadows cannot clear the content or even do it well its just we die way too often to bad RnG if it was down to me being an idiot I wouldn't mind

 

I don't know the best solution to this but I could live with the attacks being broken up like they were pre 2.0 on Kephess where we could get very unlucky and one shotted by Kephess due to RnG on EC Nim but it was a very rare occurrence. I for one in no way want a return to the situation pre 1.3 where Shadows were so over powered t wasn't funny but its just no fun dying to bad RnG for me or the raid team.

Edited June 18, 2013 by WheresMyWhisky

[throwdownj]

@Vaidinah if you have a point beyond you are a total douche you are doing a piss poor job of making it. Your defense is nothing but assumptions and name calling. No one said Shadows are not capable tanks the entire point is sometimes and it is a rather often sometimes we die with no control over that, while the other 2 tanks do not have this problem. Fights either consist of us taking very little dmg or way to much dmg regardless of playstyle. If you are lucky you can get thru an ops with taking less dmg then other 2 tanks but if you are unlucky which i have been you can take huge dmg and die doing the exact same things. A skilled guardian or vanguard will live while a skilled shadow its really down to luck if you live or die. Thats the ******** everyone is talking about not getting buffs.

[Leafy_Bug]

Isnip.

 

 

I am sorry but I have to ask, do you read what we post or you formulate your answers while quoting a poster? There have been numerous threads in the PTS section, one started by me, where Friendly Fire, Carnage Gaming, said they will not use Shadow Tanks anymore in 16 man nim runs as it increases the level of difficulty and even with a perfect run, RNG may wipe the tank/raid. FriendlyFire and Carnage Gaming are top guilds who know a few things about the game.

 

 

I think I said this 50 times already, we are aware that you can cover content with a shadow tank and people do so. I myself am a BIS 72 shadow tank and have covered all content (TFB NiM still in progress). We are aware people cleared TFB NiM 8 man with a shadow tank. Are you aware that 16 man guilds are using guardian/vanguard or guardian/guardian to do so? Are you aware that operations are easier with other tanks than with shadow tanks because shadows are too damn spiky? Are you aware that a BIS 72 shadow performs worse than an poorly optimized guardian/vanguard on a lower tier of gear? Are you aware that shadow tanks raise the level of difficulty when used and there are no extra points for using a shadow tank ?

 

 

 

Please stop insulting our intellect and have the courtesy of reading what we say. Shadow tanks are broken, they are too spiky, and will cause a wipe in 16 man NiM TFB/SV runs. Any content that does not tailor all classes is not content that should be on live.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[hobbesmaster]

While some who read that will blame the healers and say learn to play, these runs were intended for the healers to learn to play and see what our regular healers have to deal with.

 

Not perhaps the best argument - thats what SM is for after all. Whats important is you can get away with it on a jug or PT.

 

I really do think the fix can be a relatively small change.

Edited June 18, 2013 by hobbesmaster

[Leafy_Bug]

Not perhaps the best argument - thats what SM is for after all. Whats important is you can get away with it on a jug or PT.

 

I really do think the fix can be a relatively small change.

 

Story mode can only take you so far and the damage cannot be compared. You have a solid point about the PT and jugg being more forgiving. Shadow tanks are not reliable tanks when the **** hits the fan. Resilience is also broken, we are taking 3k DPS from certain bosses, hits that take 32k hp from our health pool, packs of trash that force us to use 3 cooldowns to survive, etc. We do not ask the impossible, again, we ask BioWare to fix what they broke, I am sorry but this is true. The constant nerfs, some were needed, should not have made the Shadow what it is today. Good RNG+Good healers = Shadow Tanks FTW. Bad RNG+Good Healers = Shadow tank dead. Bad RNG+Bad healers=Take a guardian.

 

 

Take out the healing form Combat Technique, increase armour and damage reduction, make kinetic ward a passive skill and redesign to reduce spikiness on stacks consumed, make force breach increase damage reduction or give us an oh **** cooldown that is more reliable than resilience. Retweak deflection as it seems to fail sometimes as well.

 

 

Deflection : Increases your ranged and melee defenses by 50% for 12 seconds. Requires a melee weapon

Saber Ward: Raises a lightsaber ward, increasing melee and ranged defense by 50% and reducing the damage taken from Force and tech attacks by 25%. Lasts 12 seconds.

 

 

Again, due to bad RNG with 75% defence chance, I can die and I have done so many times.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[WheresMyWhisky]

@leafy

 

I said we were too spikey. I am sorry if I wasn't clear in the way I put my point. I was basically trying to say I can clear SnV easy on my Guardian but on my Shadow I get wiped out due to bad RnG too often. I was disagreeing with Vaidinah not the others in this thread. I then gave examples of where we get wiped out due to no fault of our own i.e. the Operations Boss and Thrasher.

 

I also made the point that I don't think either the Guardian or Shadow is hard to play if you understand the classes so I don't think we should be getting into an argument over that

 

I was also trying to make the point I don't want us to be overpowered again like we were pre 1.3.

[throwdownj]

@leafy

 

I said we were too spikey. I am sorry if I wasn't clear in the way I put my point. I was basically trying to say I can clear SnV easy on my Guardian but on my Shadow I get wiped out due to bad RnG too often. I was disagreeing with Vaidinah not the others in this thread. I then gave examples of where we get wiped out due to no fault of our own i.e. the Operations Boss and Thrasher.

 

I also made the point that I don't think either the Guardian or Shadow is hard to play if you understand the classes so I don't think we should be getting into an argument over that

 

I was also trying to make the point I don't want us to be overpowered again like we were pre 1.3.

 

I think they just hit the wrong quote

[Kitru]

The analogy is pre-2.0, the PTs were Shadows and the Operatives were hybrid Juggernaughts. That is the massive level of skill difference between them in terms of being able to play their role both effectively and optimally. Pre-2.0, Operatives had to be extremely disciplined with resource management and play at a far higher level than most other DPS to do anywhere near as much damage as them. The same was true for hybrid Juggernaughts to perform their role. Shadows had an extremely simple rotation and resource management just like Pyrotech PTs did and could do their jobs very well with almost no thought involved.

 

That's still a flawed analogy. DPS VGs were stupidly easy to play an took no skill whatsoever. They had the barest resource management required and just used stuff on CD otherwise. Dirty fighting, in general (so it wasn't just unique to Operatives), only required the resource discipline until you got into good enough gear to have reliable crits with your DoTs, wherein the resource management became *way* easier. You still had to watch your resources, but it wasn't *all* that bad. It was more of gear dependency issue forcing resource management than the actual *spec* forcing it.

 

You're acting as if the *only* difficulty in playing a tank is in the rotation and resource management. If that were true, I'd agree with you. Shadows have a very easy resource management and attack construct, once you've learned it. Of course, the exact same was true for hybrid Guardians so... not really a valid argument?

 

Tanking difficulty isn't dependent upon rotation and resource management since, unless you're completely obtuse, threat generation in TOR is a *stupidly* simple part of the game. You can taunt spam and never have any kind of threat problems. If you define "skill" as "maintaining threat", tanks require no skill whatsoever. You just taunt spam and you're done.

 

Tanking difficulty, insofar as anyone discussing Shadows as "skill tanks" is concerned, references the impact of personal skill and knowledge upon survivability. Guardians, even pre-2.0, required very little in the way of knowledge or skill in order to be as survivable as possible. The same was true with VGs. In 2.0, Guardians now have the *simplest* rotation to maintain their survivability: Guardian Slash once every 20 seconds (which is, you know, *so* hard since it only comes up once every 12 seconds when the rest of your 12 sec CDs do) and Riposte every 10 seconds (which, once again, *so* very hard what with Guardian Slash allowing you to use Riposte and the chances of not getting at least 1 dodge every 10 seconds is almost ludicrously low; hell, the chances of not getting at least 1 dodge while Riposte is on CD is crazy low). Their CDs are general in application and their spikiness is something that you *never* have to worry about while all of their mitigation is proactive. Shadows have to deal with high spikiness, reactive mitigation, and specific CDs. Battle Readiness, even with the changes is one of the weaker CDs thanks to Shadows having terrible baseline damage reduction. The only thing that makes it nice is the self heal aspect. Shadows have, comparatively, weaker CDs that are only justified in being effective thanks to their potency. If you misuse one, you get nothing out of it. If you misuse a CD as a Guardian or a VG, you get... pretty much what you would have gotten otherwise. They work in all situations. As mentioned before, skill and knowledge to use the abilities properly.

 

I know you have a Guardian. So what? Having a class and being actually *good* at it are completely different things. Based on your comments in this thread and in the one in the "Fixing Shadow Spikiness" one, you are not anywhere near being a skilled Guardian. Thus, you don't have any qualifications to discuss whether that class takes skill or not because you lack anything but a superficial understanding how to play the class. You played the inferior version of the Guardian (full defense over hybrid) because the hybrid was beyond your skill level.

 

I find it amusing that you feel the need to cast aspersions on my knowledge of how to play a Guardian tank effective without actually having *any* real argument to indicate that *exactly* what I've been saying about Guardians has *ever* been wrong. You brought up *ridiculously* superficial aspects of Guardian tanking (Guardian Leap! Wow, that'll be useful in like 2 fights and it'll have such little effect no one will notice it! Amazing effect of skill there!) as "skill" aspects while having nothing to say on the topic of "herp derp surviving is easy!". Bring up some points where I've actually been *wrong* and you'll actually have a case for saying that I don't know what I'm talking about.

 

As to me using a full Defense Guardian pre-2.0, it wasn't because I found the spec too hard to play. Honestly, it wasn't all that hard after I played it for 30 minutes and learned the rotation and attack use paradigm. I played it long enough to learn it and use it effectively. I just didn't *enjoy* it, and the difference in performance between a hybrid Guardian and a full Defense Guardian wasn't enough for me to make the change for an alt. I knew *exactly* how to play a hybrid Guardian. Once you got around the resource issue (which, once again, not really how I would define "skill" beyond just learning the basics), it still required less skill than a Shadow to survive. Threat was the only real issue and, as I said before, threat is a joke in TOR.

 

The community has yet to come with a good argument as to why Shadows need a buff over any other tanking class. Cherry picking data and ignoring anything that contradicts people's pre-conceived notions does not make for a strong case. There are plenty of Shadow/Assassin tanks that have no significant issues and have reported as such. Both kills on Nightmare TFB Dread Guards had an Assassin tank and that is the hardest content in the game by far. Even if you want to make an exception for that particular fight, both guilds that did this went through and beat the rest of Nightmare TFB with the same tanks as far as I saw. Thus, if the top guilds in the world can do this for a world first, the argument falls apart (at least for 8 man).

 

You're making the mistake of assuming that a *single* event proves the general case. Shadows are RNG tanks. It's entirely possible for a Shadow to get lucky (it's just not *likely*). Rather than stating that "hey, it's possible!", you need to look at the actual average performance of the class. Even running top tier content, most guilds recognize and admit that Shadows are *stupidly* risky and unreliable. There were clears of NiM EC with Operative DPS. Just because they *can* be part of a group that clears the hardest content in the game doesn't mean that the class is balanced. The specific case doesn't disprove the general case: a single datapoint is not something you *ever* want to base a conclusion off of (unless your conclusion is "this is impossible", which no one has claimed). Apparently, you never learned basic statistics.

 

Also, I'd have to ask those guilds that managed those world firsts whether they'd have been willing to bring in a Guardian or VG tank instead of a Shadow tank had they had the option (i.e. an equally knowledgeable, equally geared, and played by a friend of theirs). I'm pretty sure that the answer would have been "yes". Numerous top tier guilds have referenced the fact that Shadows are a massive liability and that they're looking to phase them out for Guardians. It was one of the big issues on the PTS when the content was being tested. Shadows just weren't viable to bring along if you didn't want to risk a wipe on an otherwise excellent run just because the Shadow got a string of bad RNG and fell over dead without any ability to avoid it.

[TridusSWTOR]

I agree that shadows need to get a look at in regards to their spikyness.

 

I strongly disagree with that translating to jugg tanking nerfs.

 

That's where the selfishness comes in.

 

I need to ask, why do you need a buff and to nerf another class? Isn't a buff and fix to assassin tanks enough? It's coming off very arrogant.

 

I play all three tanking classes, like everyone else in this game apparently.

[Leafy_Bug]

@leafy

 

I said we were too spikey. I am sorry if I wasn't clear in the way I put my point. I was basically trying to say I can clear SnV easy on my Guardian but on my Shadow I get wiped out due to bad RnG too often. I was disagreeing with Vaidinah not the others in this thread. I then gave examples of where we get wiped out due to no fault of our own i.e. the Operations Boss and Thrasher.

 

I also made the point that I don't think either the Guardian or Shadow is hard to play if you understand the classes so I don't think we should be getting into an argument over that

 

I was also trying to make the point I don't want us to be overpowered again like we were pre 1.3.

 

 

OMG my sincere apologies, it was the wrong quote! Sorry mate!!! . I blame my iphone!