Scoundrel healers impossible to kill

[Jorojus]

you do realize he siad "played another game" in there right? as in played vengeance in one and tank in the other?

 

And where do you see this person writing that he plays tank .

[Ovan_Oh-One]

And where do you see this person writing that he plays tank .

 

I play jug vengeance and one match I was just attacking one healer the entire game...he didnt die once..

 

I know my class, i know how to play, i'm fully geared/augmented but I cant kill them

 

They have heal

They have roll

They can go invisible

They can stun me and heal up

They can stun me and go invisible, run around a corner and heal up

 

We played another game again, same scoundrel was there...he survived longer than me when i wore my fully augmented tank gear. Its ridiculous

 

Here.

[Skylancewalker]

This is the single most stupid premise I've ever heard in my 40-year life.

 

It doesn't make sense from a game mechanics perspective, and it doesn't make sense from a story perspective.

 

I guess in your world the Navy SEAL should always get the crap beat out of him by the trauma nurse...

 

Anyone can bring a small quote out of context...of course I was talking about in this game as of now. Good job though you might have a job in media bro..

[Arkerus]

When healers are better tanks than actual tanks then there is a serious balance issue. Why even bring a tank class when you can bring a bunch if DPS and some healers? At the point were at now, tanks in PvP are near worthless because you can put a healer out in the "middle" and self/cross heal him while DPS can't do anything about it.

 

If you believe this is ok I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

[Arkerus]

Why don't you try coming up with solutions for the issue instead? That really goes for most people, I see a lot of QQ about healers, but very few people actually giving proper suggestions as to how they could fix healers outside of 'ZOMG NERF OPS THEY ROLL AWAY FROM MY SMASH Q_Q'.

 

Also:

1v1, the healer should not die. The healer should not be able to heal his team a lot (outside of splash healing from aoe heals), but he shouldnt die. If he did, why would you bring a healer over a dps to rated, or in pvp in general for that matter. If 1 dps not only negates a healer, but also kills him, wouldnt another dps be more helpful?

 

However, 2v1, the healer should die. I find myself dying to good players 2v1 (the ones that doesnt come on these forums and QQ about healers beeing overpowered), but I can also kite 3-4 players around for quite a long time because, well, most players are terrible. Sorry, but that's the state of it at this time. Terrible dps can not, and should not, kill a healer. Period.

 

Ah, the ever classic excuse:

 

 

I die to pro players. That's why I never die because there are no pro players around. I can last forever against the shivering masses because they are dumb and I am a modern Einstein.

 

LOVE that excuse. It's so easy to pick out.

[Scotland]

When healers are better tanks than actual tanks then there is a serious balance issue. Why even bring a tank class when you can bring a bunch if DPS and some healers? At the point were at now, tanks in PvP are near worthless because you can put a healer out in the "middle" and self/cross heal him while DPS can't do anything about it.

 

If you believe this is ok I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

 

/facepalm

[Cretinus]

Operative healers are actually balanced. But because operative is such a difficult class to master, only extremely good players play it. And extremely good players will always own other players, this has nothing to do with the class.

 

My suggestion: Make operative healer easyer to play! Give him roll while in cover + stealth while rolling + cover while in stealth, for example! And a combat self-rezz directly into cover + stealth, so that he can visit us twice! This way the class would be accessible to bad players too -> problem solved.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Cretinus

[Skylancewalker]

Operative healers are actually balanced. But because operative is such a difficult class to master, only extremely good players play it. And extremely good players will always own other players, this has nothing to do with the class.

 

My suggestion: Make operative healer easyer to play! Give them roll while in cover + stealth while rolling + cover while in stealth, for example! And a combat self-rezz directly into cover + stealth, so that they can visit us twice! This way the class would be accessible to bad players too.

 

Agree and Disagree. Operative healer is not "balanced" it is by far the best healing class in the game. You can put the "good players" on any of the healing classes and they will be good at it. The good players play this class because it is the best healing class. It is not that difficult to play. No adv class on this game takes much skill to play.

[Jorojus]

Here.

 

He says he wore fully augmented tank gear, I am not so sure he was playing tank, comprehensive reading I know, its hard.

 

And if he was, I do wonder if he had a healer on him

 

Oh wait maybe this guy tried killing this healer 1 v 1

Edited June 6, 2013 by Jorojus

[Kovaos]

Dang I didn't realize Scoundrel healers don't die. They must get a butt ton of medals each game.

[jolleebindu]

That is NOT good game balance. In fact it is the complete opposite of good game balance. If you can solo a healer as a DPS there is absolutely NO point in playing a healer.

 

Think about what you're saying. Just because you want to solo a healer doesn't mean it's good for the game (which it isn't).

 

the idea of support class is that it is more beneficial in group settings... in a 1v1 the support class should fall to the classes that are better "dueling" or single target damage classes (more often than not, all else being equal) - eventually this would turn around say 2 dps vs 1 dps +1 heal or 1 heal replacing a player in the 4v4

The idea of support class is that you make other players around you stronger, in the case of healing/tanking harder to kill - if you are also given an advantage in solo encounters then the balance is skewed favoring the supporting classes - as is currently the case with ops heals

[jolleebindu]

When healers are better tanks than actual tanks then there is a serious balance issue. Why even bring a tank class when you can bring a bunch if DPS and some healers? At the point were at now, tanks in PvP are near worthless because you can put a healer out in the "middle" and self/cross heal him while DPS can't do anything about it.

 

If you believe this is ok I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

 

they bring guard and are able to pass it around to the healers being "focused"

[jolleebindu]

Why don't you try coming up with solutions for the issue instead? That really goes for most people, I see a lot of QQ about healers, but very few people actually giving proper suggestions as to how they could fix healers outside of 'ZOMG NERF OPS THEY ROLL AWAY FROM MY SMASH Q_Q'.

 

Also:

1v1, the healer should not die. The healer should not be able to heal his team a lot (outside of splash healing from aoe heals), but he shouldnt die. If he did, why would you bring a healer over a dps to rated, or in pvp in general for that matter. If 1 dps not only negates a healer, but also kills him, wouldnt another dps be more helpful?

 

However, 2v1, the healer should die. I find myself dying to good players 2v1 (the ones that doesnt come on these forums and QQ about healers beeing overpowered), but I can also kite 3-4 players around for quite a long time because, well, most players are terrible. Sorry, but that's the state of it at this time. Terrible dps can not, and should not, kill a healer. Period.

 

all situations are not equal - 1v1 a healer should either die or kill the dps, the fight should not go on indefinitely

the healer should be able to counter >1 players dps, but that amount should be lessened by the use of escapes/slows and exposure to stuns/interrupts/healing debuffs. In a 1v1 the healer should be needing to use escapes/defensive cd's/change rotation due to interrupts to survive and this isn't the case, they can just stand there and take it if they want to (from > a few of the dps specs).

 

And in a 2v1 once they are "forced" to use their "surviveability" cd's/abilities they can survive much longer than they should be able to - much longer than any other class, including other healers/tanks.

[kweassa]

Ah, the ever classic excuse:

 

 

I die to pro players. That's why I never die because there are no pro players around. I can last forever against the shivering masses because they are dumb and I am a modern Einstein.

 

LOVE that excuse. It's so easy to pick out.

 

... and the ever classic 'conditioning'.

 

Whenever a certain complaints come up, for some reason its always the 'OP' guy being piloted by a 'pro'. You give the complainers a tip, an option, alternatives, etc etc.. and its always, "that will never work on a good/pro XXX player".

 

The answer's quite simple ain't it. If you are up against a pro, then become a pro yourself.

 

Otherwise, in a REAL fight -- unlike the hypothetical assumptions we all love to make in this boards (especially PuGs) -- skill level vary widely between different people, and therefore, killing or neutering healers is actually much more often possible than not -- because, in accord with the logic stated, "not all healers are pros".

 

Hence, L2P naturally is the best answer one can give in most situations, since PvP is about skill, after all.

Edited June 6, 2013 by kweassa

[bsmolke]

DPS trees give buffs to damage that healers dont get (keeping in mind that the only healer class i believe is OP is the op/scoundrel) while the healer does not. yes they get boosts to healing and they can self heal which is all well and good, if this self healing kept them from healing the whole rest of the team, which it does not.to be able to heal yourself and the rest of the team while under pressure from DPS who's damage buffs from skill trees match or exceed your healing buffs is without a doubt OP. I'd be fine with not being able to kill them if it meant hindering their healing to the rest of their team, but it doesn't even do that.

 

From another standpoint, lets look at 1v1 just for the hell of it.

 

sorc healer vs. any competent DPS, the DPS wins or the sorc has to run away and focus heavily on healing himself back up due to lengthy cast times he cant heal the team nearly as efficiently as he should.

 

merc healer vs. any DPS, the commando/merc is dead. well, the merc's have always been in 3rd place for healing, and have the least defensive abilities of any class ive seen, so no way their healing for crap while under pressure.

 

Operative healer vs DPS, the Operative actual has a very high chance of winning any 1v1 fight even as healer, seeing as they can just put up HoTs, slice you up, get down to under 30% stun you, heal back up for free, and repeat. keep in mind that this is without any damage buffs like the DPS get, meaning operatives can basically facetank and be perfectly fine. This alone makes the Op class live up to its abbreviation as OP, as no healer should be able to tank, and operatives can tank in their sleep.

 

Now as for balance, i think the sorc class has it perfect. they can put up big numbers, but when fire starts coming their way, they have to kite away, LoS, heal up and come back, meaning by focusing them even without killing them, you've accomplished the goal of stopping them from putting out mass heals. (mercs i wont even get into cause imho i think mercs need more Defensive CD's to even be on the same scale as sorcs let alone Op's). The operative on the other hand as i said earlier can facetank your dps throw up some HoT's on himself, heal the whole team, then just spam the free under 30% heal and come out no worse for the wear. that means to actually accomplish your goal of stopping any heals from the Op you HAVE to kill them, and even then youve spent the better part of 3-5 minutes chasing this guy down while it takes him maybe 30 seconds to get back on the field healing again, less if its CW or attackers on voidstar.

 

 

in short, Operative/Scoundrels are definitely OP, you can see this clear as day even by just comparing the healers against each other without even bringing DPS into the equation. All the people saying L2play or "ur just bad DD" are the ones playing the Ops facetanking their asses off all the while having the time to type emotes at your futile attempts to kill them.

 

Completely agree. I find that Merc and Sorc healers seem to be in a decent spot. Unsupported and they will die, but supported they can put up so great numbers. On the other hand Operative healers seem to be able to kite indefinitely and when they get low they e-stealth, dodge, or combat roll away while their HoTs heal them back up. With so many instacast HoTs they are far too mobile and difficult to disrupt. When you do manage to disrupt them, they have far to many mechanics to escape.

[UncelSam]

The whole game is ****ed up tbh.

 

Seems theres a big drop in players again. Seems less and less are playing. Thats a good healthy sign.

[kweassa]

Completely agree. I find that Merc and Sorc healers seem to be in a decent spot. Unsupported and they will die, but supported they can put up so great numbers. On the other hand Operative healers seem to be able to kite indefinitely and when they get low they e-stealth, dodge, or combat roll away while their HoTs heal them back up. With so many instacast HoTs they are far too mobile and difficult to disrupt. When you do manage to disrupt them, they have far to many mechanics to escape.

 

Admittedly, Ops/Scoundrels have the element of "survival" to their side. They put up both rapid and highly potent healing. They also have great maneuverability and are literall "slippery as a greased pig".

 

However, that simply means you need to adapt to their actions appropriately. A lot of the folks confuse the difference between "focusing" a target, and simply just latching on to it and mashing attacks buttons and throwing CCs blindly. The same inherent weaknesses of the healer applies to Ops/Scoundrels as well -- when they are bent on surviving the barrage of attacks heading their way, they can't heal anyone else.

 

Also, while many claim Ops/Scoundrels don't run out of E, in my experience I've personally witnessed, as well as forced, their situation so hard that they manage to survive -- but at the expense of E cost so high that their E bar runs down to near bottom. At that point the Ops/Scoundrel usually chooses to vanish -- but then, that's already the object accomplished -- they ain't healing anyone at that state, and until their E comes back to full.

 

Again, I recommend mixing in Combat/Carnage Sent/Maras into the focus squad -- they're capable of countering almost all escape attempts Ops/Scoundrels put out, and makes it a lot easier for melees to focus them down.

[kweassa]

The whole game is ****ed up tbh.

 

Seems theres a big drop in players again. Seems less and less are playing. Thats a good healthy sign.

 

Based on what evidence?

[Arkerus]

they bring guard and are able to pass it around to the healers being "focused"

 

The point being healers, right now, don't even need guard. Their healing through-put is so high guard isn't even necessary.

 

Guard would be needed if healers were semi-soft with strong heals but that isn't the case, not by a long shot.

[jolleebindu]

Admittedly, Ops/Scoundrels have the element of "survival" to their side. They put up both rapid and highly potent healing. They also have great maneuverability and are literall "slippery as a greased pig".

 

However, that simply means you need to adapt to their actions appropriately. A lot of the folks confuse the difference between "focusing" a target, and simply just latching on to it and mashing attacks buttons and throwing CCs blindly. The same inherent weaknesses of the healer applies to Ops/Scoundrels as well -- when they are bent on surviving the barrage of attacks heading their way, they can't heal anyone else.

 

Also, while many claim Ops/Scoundrels don't run out of E, in my experience I've personally witnessed, as well as forced, their situation so hard that they manage to survive -- but at the expense of E cost so high that their E bar runs down to near bottom. At that point the Ops/Scoundrel usually chooses to vanish -- but then, that's already the object accomplished -- they ain't healing anyone at that state, and until their E comes back to full.

 

Again, I recommend mixing in Combat/Carnage Sent/Maras into the focus squad -- they're capable of countering almost all escape attempts Ops/Scoundrels put out, and makes it a lot easier for melees to focus them down.

 

not saying that they can't be killed, but that they are the hardest of the healing classes to kill - and capable of the greatest healing throughput

 

also, as to your comment that keeping them from healing is the goal... not always - if you are trying to cap a node and it comes to the point where you have to kill them, well you get my point

[AlrikFassbauer]

Seems theres a big drop in players again. Seems less and less are playing. Thats a good healthy sign.

 

For the Pros who rather want the bad players to drop and the good ones to remain - and eventually end up within their (the Pro's) closed circles ?

Edited June 7, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer

[Anearion]

Well now we can see true thing about heals.

 

Op/Scoundrel is very hard to kill, nothing to interrupt (most of his skills are instant), he can run into stealth, heal from 10% to 100% in second and still be focused on healing his mates, while commando/sorc are useless... I can alone make commando heal useless for his team, and sorc can be killed in 2 sec. If we have a guarded scoundrel heal, only way to lose is being an idiot... All ppl that said "everything is ok" also said that they play as scoundrel/operativ so there is no point in asking them, they will always say that everything is ok, and its you who sucks in pvp. What did you expect? "Yes pls nerf us, because we are too powerfull"

[bsbrad]

Scoundrels are fine.

 

Nerf operatives

 

No nerf scoundrels.....operatives are fine

[bsbrad]

No nerf scoundrels.....operatives are fine

 

Honestly Scoundrels/Operatives are a lot harder to kill than the other healers (spoken as someone who mains an operative in PVP) as they have a lot of oh **** buttons plus their hots can heal even if they are dead or have gone to help the other objective point.

 

The best thing to do with an Operative is to have one of your DPS (preferably a dotter, pyros are the best for this) to sit on them the entire match so they spend most of their time keeping themselves alive. If you do manage to get them to 30% stun them and call a hard switch.

[Purre]

Of course you should be able to kill an unsupported operative by yourself as a dps. You should be able to kill any healer by yourself if they get no help. It should take longer than killing another player, but all things being equal the final outcome should not be in doubt. The idea that a support class should just shrug off a single dps is completely ridiculous. Again, all things being equal.

 

agree with this 100%