Scoundrel healers impossible to kill

[Zohkar]

I've had many people solo my healer down. So you must specify which healer's your saying can't be taken down as easy. The only time I can survive against a dps wailing on me is if he doesn't have high expertise, new to 55 pvp or I am being cross healed / guarded. Otherwise my sorcerer is toast when I get knowticed by just 1 skilled dps. What makes it worse for me is any class that can stealth remains stealthed to me all the time, all I ever see is there weapons or knifes sticking me in the back or blasting me from a distance. Honestly this sounds more like a scoundrel / operative issue when your trying to take one down.

[RodneyMcNeely]

Sorry but pure DPS (Sniper or Marauder) in any tree should drop any healer 1v1: Period.

You know, I don't agree with this viewpoint, either. Although I have to say you're the only person I've heard say it. It's usually, "ZOMG, healers should win every 1v1 EVAR"!

 

All I want is a level playing field. In a 1v1, developers should do their best to make sure that every Advanced Class and spec has an equal chance to win or lose. Character creation shouldn't be your "IWIN" button.

 

Yeah, I know life isn't fair. But I expect people to at least make a token attempt at it. That includes the people I pay for entertainment.

 

[RakeshZeal]

Roll with a class that uses an extra truama. 'Nuff said.

[jedcjedcjedc]

DPS trees give buffs to damage that healers dont get (keeping in mind that the only healer class i believe is OP is the op/scoundrel) while the healer does not. yes they get boosts to healing and they can self heal which is all well and good, if this self healing kept them from healing the whole rest of the team, which it does not.to be able to heal yourself and the rest of the team while under pressure from DPS who's damage buffs from skill trees match or exceed your healing buffs is without a doubt OP. I'd be fine with not being able to kill them if it meant hindering their healing to the rest of their team, but it doesn't even do that.

 

From another standpoint, lets look at 1v1 just for the hell of it.

 

sorc healer vs. any competent DPS, the DPS wins or the sorc has to run away and focus heavily on healing himself back up due to lengthy cast times he cant heal the team nearly as efficiently as he should.

 

merc healer vs. any DPS, the commando/merc is dead. well, the merc's have always been in 3rd place for healing, and have the least defensive abilities of any class ive seen, so no way their healing for crap while under pressure.

 

Operative healer vs DPS, the Operative actual has a very high chance of winning any 1v1 fight even as healer, seeing as they can just put up HoTs, slice you up, get down to under 30% stun you, heal back up for free, and repeat. keep in mind that this is without any damage buffs like the DPS get, meaning operatives can basically facetank and be perfectly fine. This alone makes the Op class live up to its abbreviation as OP, as no healer should be able to tank, and operatives can tank in their sleep.

 

Now as for balance, i think the sorc class has it perfect. they can put up big numbers, but when fire starts coming their way, they have to kite away, LoS, heal up and come back, meaning by focusing them even without killing them, you've accomplished the goal of stopping them from putting out mass heals. (mercs i wont even get into cause imho i think mercs need more Defensive CD's to even be on the same scale as sorcs let alone Op's). The operative on the other hand as i said earlier can facetank your dps throw up some HoT's on himself, heal the whole team, then just spam the free under 30% heal and come out no worse for the wear. that means to actually accomplish your goal of stopping any heals from the Op you HAVE to kill them, and even then youve spent the better part of 3-5 minutes chasing this guy down while it takes him maybe 30 seconds to get back on the field healing again, less if its CW or attackers on voidstar.

 

 

in short, Operative/Scoundrels are definitely OP, you can see this clear as day even by just comparing the healers against each other without even bringing DPS into the equation. All the people saying L2play or "ur just bad DD" are the ones playing the Ops facetanking their asses off all the while having the time to type emotes at your futile attempts to kill them.

[alexsamma]

in short, Operative/Scoundrels are definitely OP, you can see this clear as day even by just comparing the healers against each other without even bringing DPS into the equation. All the people saying L2play or "ur just bad DD" are the ones playing the Ops facetanking their asses off all the while having the time to type emotes at your futile attempts to kill them.

 

o.O well, I wouldn't say it is that easy, and I think you're a bit to harsh on mercs (they really shine with a tank), but otherwise /golfclap.

[Aelaias]

That is NOT good game balance. In fact it is the complete opposite of good game balance. If you can solo a healer as a DPS there is absolutely NO point in playing a healer.

 

Think about what you're saying. Just because you want to solo a healer doesn't mean it's good for the game (which it isn't).

 

Yeah, the pvp is going great in this game after 2.0, sure. Healers cannon be a power unto themselves -- they should need help to survive, far more than they need now. Much of the dps in this game is where they should be. But CC, resolve and healers are completely out of whack and messing everything up. Combine immortal healers with all the cc and newly buffed tanks and Bioware can stuff their game up the sunless recesses of their bodies.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Aelaias

[DharmaPolice]

These threads often come down to irrelevant discussions about 1 dps vs 1 healer in isolated sustained encounters. This is representative of a tiny proportion of warzone fights. In most cases there'll be other players involved - both players will have buffs/debuffs on them and even in a true 1 vs 1 one or both sides will be expecting help from their team very shortly (unless both sides are playing with utter cretins).

 

It's like arguing about chess balance by saying a knight should be able to win 1 vs 1 against a bishop.

 

Anyway, I agree good Scoundrels/Operatives are hard to kill but clearly "impossible" is hyperbole if you know what you're doing. Unfortunately in most pugs at least 2 of the (notional) dps will spend the whole match attacking the Juggernauts or Powertechs, end up with less than 300k damage and then complain that healing needs a nerf.

Edited June 6, 2013 by DharmaPolice

[-DarK-HorsE-]

Let me just weigh in here. I que with a Scoundrel heals on my Tank. She is guarded, your *** is taunted. Everyone else hitting her is taunted. They are pulled, stunned and innterupted religiously. It's easy to blame the heals (and they are bad *** heals) but we get accused of hacks all the time and people just aren't aware whats going on around them.

[Vladnar]

I play jug vengeance and one match I was just attacking one healer the entire game...he didnt die once..

 

I know my class, i know how to play, i'm fully geared/augmented but I cant kill them

 

They have heal

They have roll

They can go invisible

They can stun me and heal up

They can stun me and go invisible, run around a corner and heal up

 

We played another game again, same scoundrel was there...he survived longer than me when i wore my fully augmented tank gear. Its ridiculous

 

Healers hate being ganged up on and is always a simple answer for any player that has a problem being knocked down OBLITERATE THEM WITH A FRIEND is easy done then......then hound them around the wz if you so wish to teach them for being so well geared/good a player/op class whatever.

[Cretinus]

Anyway, I agree good Scoundrels/Operatives are hard to kill but clearly "impossible" is hyperbole if you know what you're doing. Unfortunately in most pugs at least 2 of the (notional) dps will spend the whole match attacking the Juggernauts or Powertechs, end up with less than 300k damage and then complain that healing needs a nerf.

 

To argue that operative healers never die because the DPS are all bad would only make sense if all operative healers were good (cause otherwise you'd have those bad DPS fighting bad operatives too and here the outcome should be balanced).

 

However, the player base having 100% bad DPS and 100% good operative healers is so unlikely as to contradict the second law of thermodynamics.

 

To expect is much rather that there are good and bad DPS and good and bad operative healers as well. Accordingly, the outcome of fights involving operative healers should be more open.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Cretinus

[jedcjedcjedc]

Let me just weigh in here. I que with a Scoundrel heals on my Tank. She is guarded, your *** is taunted. Everyone else hitting her is taunted. They are pulled, stunned and innterupted religiously. It's easy to blame the heals (and they are bad *** heals) but we get accused of hacks all the time and people just aren't aware whats going on around them.

 

its easy to see when your taunted, as you start glowing bright blue/red. thats not part of the issue with op/scoundrel OP'ness here.

[Jorojus]

I play jug vengeance and one match I was just attacking one healer the entire game...he didnt die once..

 

I know my class, i know how to play, i'm fully geared/augmented but I cant kill them

 

They have heal

They have roll

They can go invisible

They can stun me and heal up

They can stun me and go invisible, run around a corner and heal up

 

We played another game again, same scoundrel was there...he survived longer than me when i wore my fully augmented tank gear. Its ridiculous

 

Clearly a troll.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Jorojus

[jedcjedcjedc]

Clearly a troll.

 

you do realize he siad "played another game" in there right? as in played vengeance in one and tank in the other?

[-Esper-]

Scoundrel healer can't survive with sure against snipers, maraders, asassins and sorcs in duel 1 vs 1. Maybe he can survive sometimes agains mercs, powertechs and operatives, with some little probability, but when he has identical gear lvl. In the same time scoundrel as DPS is very bad in comparison with other classes, is very slow, because of global cooldown and energy cost, and untill patch 2.0 he was very slow in movement too, in the same time he hasn't good shiled, defense and armor, and has very heavy mechanics to get necessary position to attack, must to sit down and spend time for this in the same time, must be with good alacrity stats to use Charged Burst, and he has difficulty to get position to stay behind the moving enemy and to use backblast or shoot first. Now scoundrel can be only healer but not effective DPS like it was untill version 1.2 of the game, and in role of healer without support of others he is very unsurvivable, and if he has enough of energy in this time he can only run, or with emergency to become invisible, if cooldown of this ability permits it, and dots on him doesn't unmask him again in shorter time, or good detection lvl of enemy. And he always can be stunned, sleeped or interrupted, hasn't personal CC immunity, like other classes have and has only the same for all classes resolve bar immunity system. This is real life of scoundrels ) Edited June 6, 2013 by -Esper-

[DharmaPolice]

To argue that operative healers never die because the DPS are all bad.

I never said that. Firstly, operatives die all the time. Saying they never die is silly. Look at the screenshot posted in the PTS match of Reality Check vs Infinite Darkness (http://i.imgur.com/AHTaxN1.jpg) RC's Operative healer (who I can assure you is not a bad player) died 14 times.

 

Secondly, the games where I play my Scoundrel healer and don't die can be split into the following:

 

1. The enemy team has multiple good dps who just don't focus me for some reason (often because they don't need to - they win by persuing a different strategy). This is rare, but does happen.

 

2. The enemy team has maybe 2 (or sometimes 3) good dps who try to focus me, but because of cross healing + guard and my team generally peeling them off me I survive. Sometimes I'm lucky to be paired with a Sage healer or another Scoundrel who is a well known healer. They therefore take the brunt of the damage.

 

3. The enemy team has 1 good dps who do their best to focus me but because the rest of their team are incompetent they can't do enough damage quickly enough to kill me.

 

4. The enemy team's dps are generally muppets who either don't focus or who lose concentration 2 minutes into the match and go and do their own thing.

 

Number 4 is by far the most common scenario. In pugs at least, the number of terrible DPS has increased dramatically since 2.0 or just as bad - teams with no real dps (or more commonly just one) at all. One of the reasons why healing is so viable now is because a lot of teams you go up against have no real damage dealing ability. When you go against a dps heavy team then you're very likely to die repeatedly (even as an immortal Scoundrel healer).

 

Anyway, as I have said - I agree that Scoundrel healers are damn strong at the moment and probably too strong. Personally, I think an increase in energy costs for the core abilities would be worth trying. Alternatively, if you wanted to leave resource management the same then reduce the threshold for free heals to 25% not 30% (sounds a small change but would be significant in PVP I think).

[ronniehenlau]

Don't expect any sort of operative healer nerfs before EA goes bankrupt. Just accept the current PvP reality that healers have returned to pre SWTOR 1.2 performance.

Ranged DPS cannot kill operative healers. PT has been nerfed to be less of a threat against healers. The rest, the melee DPS are far from hard countering operative healers, which balance wise should be the case btw.

 

Why don't you try coming up with solutions for the issue instead? That really goes for most people, I see a lot of QQ about healers, but very few people actually giving proper suggestions as to how they could fix healers outside of 'ZOMG NERF OPS THEY ROLL AWAY FROM MY SMASH Q_Q'.

 

Also:

1v1, the healer should not die. The healer should not be able to heal his team a lot (outside of splash healing from aoe heals), but he shouldnt die. If he did, why would you bring a healer over a dps to rated, or in pvp in general for that matter. If 1 dps not only negates a healer, but also kills him, wouldnt another dps be more helpful?

 

However, 2v1, the healer should die. I find myself dying to good players 2v1 (the ones that doesnt come on these forums and QQ about healers beeing overpowered), but I can also kite 3-4 players around for quite a long time because, well, most players are terrible. Sorry, but that's the state of it at this time. Terrible dps can not, and should not, kill a healer. Period.

[Master-Nala]

I know my class, i know how to play, i'm fully geared/augmented but I cant kill them

 

Has it ever occurred to you that the Operative/Scoundrels you face know how to play BETTER than you? I will accept your premise that you know how to play your class and spec. But what if you're against a player with superior skill?

[Tankqull]

Has it ever occurred to you that the Operative/Scoundrels you face know how to play BETTER than you? I will accept your premise that you know how to play your class and spec. But what if you're against a player with superior skill?

 

nah DDs are the pride of creation...

[AlrikFassbauer]

Has it ever occurred to you that the Operative/Scoundrels you face know how to play BETTER than you? I will accept your premise that you know how to play your class and spec. But what if you're against a player with superior skill?

 

Oops, do there still exist Operatives/Scoundrels who are actually bad players ?

 

Doesn't sound like this from your post.

Instead, it sounds as if all Scoundrels/Operatives were played by naturally born superior players.

Edited June 6, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer

[Master-Nala]

Oops, do there still exist Operatives/Scoundrels who are actually bad players ?

 

It's not a binary position. They aren't either BAD or GOOD. Some might just be better at the game than Vassise. I would gather that observation bias prevents Vassise from remembering the times when she/he did kill a bad Operative/Scoundrel.

 

Doesn't sound like this from your post.

Instead, it sounds as if all Scoundrels/Operatives were played by naturally born superior players.

 

Not sure how anyone could have read that into my post, but this is the internet.

[skotish]

All I can say op/scoundrel have a very good toolbox to work

With as have sorcs merc heals need help

[cycao]

All I can say op/scoundrel have a very good toolbox to work

With as have sorcs merc heals need help

 

Only healing tree that needs help is mercs/commandos. Sorcs/sages do fine.

[MotorCityMan]

Only healing tree that needs help is mercs/commandos. Sorcs/sages do fine.

 

Not really. The "Hey call the med center, the sorc is going to be 10 seconds late" bubble really didn't do much for sorc survivability.

[cycao]

Not really. The "Hey call the med center, the sorc is going to be 10 seconds late" bubble really didn't do much for sorc survivability.

 

Their heals are fine and they have tools to escape and have utility which merc healers do not. Op healers are the best no question but the only healing class that needs real help is mercs.

[kweassa]

I play jug vengeance and one match I was just attacking one healer the entire game...he didnt die once..

 

There are classes/builds that are killers, and then there are classes/builds that are fighters. In rare cases, with a lot of "human factor" put in, there are PLAYERS who can be both a fighter and a killer.

 

In this case, Vengeance builds are definately fighters, capable of putting up high levels of steady stream of damage and maintaining it, but it lacks any real burst quality to really bring down a target with high defenses or heals (or, players who know how to 'dance along') within a short span of time.

 

If you want to take down healers in a 1vs1 situation, as quickly as possible, Combat/Carnage Sent/Maras would be a more viable option. (Focus/Rage is a one-trick pony that relies on one massive hit every 15 seconds or so, and thus better used as a quick "finisher" on targets with low health, rather than as a "fighter")

 

 

I know my class, i know how to play, i'm fully geared/augmented but I cant kill them

 

Sir, with no intention of disrespect, please excuse me as I really cannot take this comment at face value. I've played MMOGs long enough to realize that perhaps around 90% of the PvP player base all want to think that they really do know their character/class.

 

I've been playing a Jedi Guardian as a main character since launch, and I still have yet to fully grasp what I can do. Literally, everyday you learn something new -- whether I discover it myself, or observe someone better than me do things I did not think of.

 

Try think carefully if you really do know "how to play." Because, IMO, if you really did know how to play, you'd have had better results.

 

 

They have heal

They have roll

They can go invisible

They can stun me and heal up

They can stun me and go invisible, run around a corner and heal up

 

We played another game again, same scoundrel was there...he survived longer than me when i wore my fully augmented tank gear. Its ridiculous

 

My friend and I met a pair of Ops healers at the grass node in Alderaan. We've already decisively lost, and thus realized they came to the node to taunt us.

 

After the 2vs2 fight, one of them was forced to run away with 35% health or so, and the other didn't make it back home.

Two Ops cross-healing each other, and we killed one, and forced the other to run. I was a Combat/Ataru Sentinel, my friend was a Shield Vanguard.

 

And yes, I know a thing or two in shutting healers down.

Edited June 6, 2013 by kweassa