Tanks are the cause for unbalance in PvP

[Altheran]

Taunts needs to be locked to tank spec and guard needs to be lowered to 25%.

 

If you do that, you turn tanks into dead weight.

 

Guard do not reduce damage by 50%, it shares it with the guarder. At most, in the case of a weapon-type attack which will be opposed to the tank's avoidance and shield, a tank will tend to take half the damage a DPS would receive. So only half of an half is effectivly avoided, and it this case it is already 25%.

 

In the case it is a Tech/Force attack, ignoring the tanks avoidance, or in the worst case a Tech/Force which is Elemental, which will also ignore shielding and armor, the efficiency of Guard become lower.

In the case of Elemental attacks a tank relative survivability is only around 10% higher than a DPS, and so the guard will lower the ennemy output by only 5%.

 

Halve the amount of redirected damage, and you also halve the Guard efficiency. Having a tool that will help people for only 2.5% to 12.5% is something very weak.

 

And as the amount of protection as it is shown on the scoreboard represent the damage you took, or the damage the guarded one did not took, but not how much damage hasn't been dealt (or has been effectively avoided, as you wish) which is a much lower value, it means that protection numbers are overrated, and tanks contribution is in reality, much more lower than people think. When a score board shows 300K protection, it means the tank has allowed only 150K or 200K at most damage to not be dealt. Even the biggest protections score are nothing compared to an average healer score.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Altheran

[L-RANDLE]

I'm guessing something like this? http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101GrRbdzMZcrMZfbbkrM.3 with DPS gear not tank gear in Soresu form? TBH I'd probably do something more like 23/6/17. Backhand is so good.

 

Pretty close.... Sure you can move a few points around here or there, but the basis is that once you get past no channel choke, go DPS.. I also wear a shield generator and carry some defensive stats on it and me ear/implants, but yeah, it my battle tank build. It's a balanced approach. Tankie enough, with significantly better DPS... I know its outside the box, but hey my guildies said they think its pretty effective and that's enough for me to rubber stamp it...

Edited May 31, 2013 by L-RANDLE

[DimeStax]

Sorry bro, you lost all credibility after you endorsed this statement:

 

20/9/17

As a person PM'd me about this topic said, in relation to the current build on live servers (paraphrase), "If you are not bringing credible DPS to the table, you might as well bring a healer."

 

Not truer words have been spoken.....

Edited May 31, 2013 by DimeStax

[dcgregorya]

Surely, you've met teams that are not up to your standards, with roughly the same composition as your own. Do they manage to fight so long? Unlikely, at least in my experience.

 

Clearly. The last 200 warzones I've played since 2.0 are all flukes. Somewhere out there at the end of the rainbow there's a pug team for regs that can DPS more than I can heal and I'm just magically unaware of it.

[L-RANDLE]

Sorry bro, you lost all credibility after you endorsed this statement:

 

Only to you. I could bother picking you apart, but won't waste my time because your understanding of time and mechanics as it relates to warzones is grammer school level... So ill ask you again.

 

 

 

A simple question, how much does a 30 sec CD decrease on saber ward impact effectiveness in a WZ?

Maybe if you give me a logical argument why it matters, ill continue, but I won't get my hopes up..

[Ridickilis]

A simple question, how much does a 30 sec CD decrease on saber ward impact effectiveness in a WZ?

 

To be honest that's one of the talents I skipped as well, even though I have a 36 point immortal build (I skipped that, vicious retaliate and the ravage buff).

 

But I will say I do think you're really missing out by not having the added damage reduction in dark blood and crushing blow, no sonic wall for teammates, no retaliate on a 4.5 second CD (and I'm guessing you may average less retaliates as you probably have a lower defense rating because of your dps gear), no extra 2 seconds on saber reflect and your rage, while manageable, would be a lot easier if you had revenge and sweeping fury.

[dcgregorya]

... no extra 2 seconds on saber reflect and your rage..y.

 

Minor note here - 2 extra seconds on reflect sounds a lot better than it is outside of 1vs1 - because reflected damage is capped. Biggest thing I'd miss is backhand. Even if you just count it as an additional interrupt, it's going to be useful.

Edited May 31, 2013 by dcgregorya

[L-RANDLE]

To be honest that's one of the talents I skipped as well, even though I have a 36 point immortal build (I skipped that, vicious retaliate and the ravage buff).

 

But I will say I do think you're really missing out by not having the added damage reduction in dark blood and crushing blow, no sonic wall for teammates, no retaliate on a 4.5 second CD (and I'm guessing you may average less retaliates as you probably have a lower defense rating because of your dps gear), no extra 2 seconds on saber reflect and your rage, while manageable, would be a lot easier if you had revenge and sweeping fury.

 

Yeah there are some tradeoffs, but the "extra" stuff in a WZ would only make a slight difference only under optimal conditions. That doesn't factor downtime either... I mean what is the point of having 2sec on a reflect if you killed your opponents? 1 extra saber ward (max) or a 6k master strike all the time its available? Movement speed increase or 7.5% buff on slash/dispatch? Get shield/absorb for spec/gear, when DPS have or are speccing autocrits more due to the crit nerf?

 

Going more than 25 points in the tank tree is questionable at best IMO...

 

I'm not saying its better, but I am not tethered to a healer to be productive, and I am just as effective, if not more, than I was as a full spec.. I got two sets, tried both, tweaked the spec and gear and voila... BATTLE TANK...

[DimeStax]

Only to you. I could bother picking you apart, but won't waste my time because your understanding of time and mechanics as it relates to warzones is grammer school level... So ill ask you again.

 

 

 

A simple question, how much does a 30 sec CD decrease on saber ward impact effectiveness in a WZ?

Maybe if you give me a logical argument why it matters, ill continue, but I won't get my hopes up..

 

This is what you are missing:

 

-Saber Ward and Warding Call timers are reduced to 2:30 down from 3 minutes (probably averages about 1 less of each cooldown per WZ)

-Hilt Strike - a 4 second stun crucial for the survivability of yourself and teammates and controlling the field.

-9 second Free Spammable AOE Snare: This is probably the most important ability for PvP tanks to have because it allows you to snare everyone in the area by 50% for 9 seconds as much as you want making it easier for your healers and DPS to kite. The enemy teams melee DPS should be snared at all times (This won't show up on your protection numbers though so you probably wouldn't understand the value).

-5% elemental and internal damage reduction and 10 seconds longer on Enure: more damage reduction is good for tanks especially against a form of damage that our armor doesn't mitigate. Longer time on Enure buys your healers more time to heal you.

-Daunting Presence: Resets your interrupt every time you force leap and makes your Saber Reflect last 2 seconds longer. This skill is invaluable to tanks since we are already getting our Force Leap reduced just by taking damage, so the more we leap the more we can interrupt. More interrupts = less DPS or heals from opposing teams during critical moments. Longer Saber Reflect is a great defensive cooldown to prevent you from taking spike damage from Ranged classes.

-AOE Bubble on your AOE Taunt

-Guardian Slash is an amazing ability that does a lot of damage and also increases damage reduction on yourself by 4%. In full tank gear in full tank spec I average about 250k dmg in regular warzones and around 350-450k in RWZs.

 

Wall of text, I know, but you asked me to spell it out for you. Until you're beating teams like Hey I'm MVP, Synergy, Strictly Business, and Don't Panic on a regular basis, you should stop advocating builds that you and your team are "comfortable" with because you haven't earned it yet..

 

If you're playing with a competent team then you need all of these abilities. If you're a Solo-Que Rambo, then spec whatever you want, it doesn't matter anyway. The best tanks on the server switched from the previous hybrid spec to full defensive gear/defensive spec, but what do we know right? Understanding how and when to use these abilities is what separates good tanks from great tanks. Anyway that will be my last explanation for you, so if you want to learn, take my advice, if you don't then just stay on farm status.

Edited May 31, 2013 by DimeStax

[L-RANDLE]

Minor note here - 2 extra seconds on reflect sounds a lot better than it is outside of 1vs1 - because reflected damage is capped. Biggest thing I'd miss is backhand. Even if you just count it as an additional interrupt, it's going to be useful.

 

When they change the cc beak, u think it will still be viable?

[L-RANDLE]

This is what you are missing:

 

-Saber Ward and Warding Call timers are reduced to 2:30 down from 3 minutes (probably averages about 1 less of each cooldown per WZ)

-Hilt Strike - a 4 second stun crucial for the survivability of yourself and teammates and controlling the field.

-9 second Free Spammable AOE Snare: This is probably the most important ability for PvP tanks to have because it allows you to snare everyone in the area by 50% for 9 seconds as much as you want making it easier for your healers and DPS to kite. The enemy teams melee DPS should be snared at all times (This won't show up on your protection numbers though so you probably wouldn't understand the value).

-5% elemental and internal damage reduction and 10 seconds longer on Enure: more damage reduction is good for tanks especially against a form of damage that our armor doesn't mitigate. Longer time on Enure buys your healers more time to heal you.

-Daunting Presence: Resets your interrupt every time you force leap and makes your Saber Reflect last 2 seconds longer. This skill is invaluable to tanks since we are already getting our Force Leap reduced just by taking damage, so the more we leap the more we can interrupt. More interrupts = less DPS or heals from opposing teams during critical moments. Longer Saber Reflect is a great defensive cooldown to prevent you from taking spike damage from Ranged classes.

-Guardian Slash is an amazing ability that does a lot of damage and also increases damage reduction on yourself by 4%. In full tank gear in full tank spec I average about 250k dmg in regular warzones and around 350-450k in RWZs.

 

Wall of text, I know, but you asked me to spell it out for you. Until you're beating teams like Hey I'm MVP, Synergy, Strictly Business, and Don't Panic on a regular basis, you should stop advocating builds that you and your team are "comfortable" with because you haven't earned it yet.

 

Lol typical Bastion turd.... All hail the self proclaimed best PVPers Eva! Lol..... Like is said you are speccing useless stuff because warzone events are not consistant. You know when that stuff matters? In a raid boss fight.... PVP? Nope... Encounters don't last long enough in PVP....

[Ridickilis]

Yeah there are some tradeoffs, but the "extra" stuff in a WZ would only make a slight difference only under optimal conditions. That doesn't factor downtime either... I mean what is the point of having 2sec on a reflect if you killed your opponents? 1 extra saber ward (max) or a 6k master strike all the time its available? Movement speed increase or 7.5% buff on slash/dispatch? Get shield/absorb for spec/gear, when DPS have or are speccing autocrits more due to the crit nerf?

 

Hey man, I'm coming from both sides of it. I did the 11/28/2 pre 2.0 in Soresu with a shield and DPS gear and no one could have convinced me there was a better way to do it. But I'm telling you, now that I respecced to full tank in 2.0 I feel miles ahead of the quasi tank/dps hybrid. Even if there are no healers around I can still hold out those extra 7.5-15 seconds alone on a VS door under heavy fire while my team waits out those last one/two clicks on the spawn timer , something I never could have done in dps gear and only 11-20 points in the immortal tree.

 

I don't have any experience with ranked but even for the regular WZ's I feel like a bigger pain in the *** and more valuable to my team then I did when I was doing those ravages every nine seconds with my buffed screams and vicious throws while have decent defenses. I used to feel naked and alone without a healer as a full tank build before (which is why I changed), not so much anymore now. If there is a healer around, fuggetaboutit, we're unstoppable.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Ridickilis

[DimeStax]

Lol typical Bastion turd.... All hail the self proclaimed best PVPers Eva! Lol..... Like is said you are speccing useless stuff because warzone events are not consistant. You know when that stuff matters? In a raid boss fight.... PVP? Nope... Encounters don't last long enough in PVP....

 

L-Randle's Guide for PvP Tanking:

 

Step 1) Apply Guard on random person

Step 2) Throw out random taunts on cooldown

Step 3) DPS IN BATTLE TANK MODE WITH 6k DIPATCHES! HURRRAH!

 

Lol. Completely clueless. GG. I'm out.

Edited May 31, 2013 by DimeStax

[L-RANDLE]

L-Randle's Guide for PvP Tanking:

 

Step 1) Apply Guard on random person

Step 2) Throw out random taunts on cooldown

Step 3) DPS IN BATTLE TANK MODE WITH 6k DIPATCHES! HURRRAH!

 

lol. GG. I'm out.

Oh boy.... U mad now?

[L-RANDLE]

Hey man, I'm coming from both sides of it. I did the 11/28/2 pre 2.0 in Soresu with a shield and DPS gear and no one could have convinced me there was a better way to do it. But I'm telling you, now that I respecced to full tank in 2.0 I feel miles ahead of the quasi tank/dps hybrid. Even if there are no healers around I can still hold out those extra 7.5-15 seconds alone on a VS door under heavy fire while my team waits out those last one/two clicks on the spawn timer , something I never could have done in dps gear and only 11-20 points in the immortal tree.

 

I don't have any experience with ranked but even for the regular WZ's I feel like a bigger pain in the *** and more valuable to my team then I did when I was doing those ravages every nine seconds with my buffed screams and vicious throws while have decent defenses. I used to feel naked and alone without a healer as a full tank build before (which is why I changed), not so much anymore now. If there is a healer around, fuggetaboutit, we're unstoppable.

I know Rik.... I was not really directing that at you so much..., but I am virtually unstoppable when a healer is around too, but it doesnt have much to do with what I'm doing...

[Ridickilis]

I'd be kinda curious to hear from healers on this because a did feel that I needed to be babysat a bit more when I wasn't a full tank. Meaning they needed to give me something like 3 out of every 4 heals where as now if feels like they can go as low as giving me 1 out of 4 or 5 thereby having more heals available for the full DPSers who are doing 10k dispatches instead of 6k, you know?

 

I don't have any proof though, just a feeling on what I've observed. I'm not really knocking your build/idea either. I guess I just always felt comfortable tanking and I'm really happy with the changes to the Guardian/Jugg tree so I don't have to feel like I need to add dps to feel viable.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Ridickilis

[L-RANDLE]

I'd be kinda curious to hear from healers on this because a did feel that I needed to be babysat a bit more when I wasn't a full tank. Meaning they needed to give me something like 3 out of every 4 heals where as now if feels like they can go as low as giving me 1 out of 4 or 5 thereby having more heals available for the full DPSers who are doing 10k dispatches instead of 6k, you know?

 

I don't have any proof though, just a feeling on what I've observed. I'm not really knocking your build/idea either. I guess I just always felt comfortable tanking and I'm really happy with the changes to the Guardian/Jugg tree so I don't have to feel like I need to add dps to feel viable.

 

I don't think I need the DPS to be viable, but I feel I need the some DPS to be a credible deterrent against healer focusing....

[dougiepants]

I will post in here and just say that as a sorc healer with one of my tanks I can live through just about anything. Am I saying that healers and tanks are OP? No because if I'm by myself and my free heal, "god bubble", no instant purple circle, and already used my pvp med stim.... I'm dead when it comes to OP ops, smashers, and hard hitting sorcs. I read alot of these threads that people complain about OP classes, premades, and gear grinding. Everyone can kil another class. Its all in how you play and and practice. Premades arent the problem either because everyone can join a guild and be in a premade. If you arent in one hit me up on PoT5. The gear is basicly thrown at us now and its easy to be completely BIS is no time. Its almost a joke for gear grinding. I find the game more interesting now because it is a challenge to heal everyone forever. I find it more interesting because all the dps is so OP. People complained about pvp since 1.0 and wil complain until this game stops being played. Join a guild, more practice, and get BIS Gear.

[Astarica]

I really don't see what's so important about a class that can't stealth to survive for extended time when you're the only person left, because even if you're unkillable you can often be CCed while the other side caps. And when you're not the only person left, there is basically no reason why the other side should care about your survivality because anybody else is still a more attractive target. The infomercial list of tanking abilities is nowhere near enough to warrant the other side actually attacking you. There are only two situations where you need to focus the tank first:

 

1. He has the Huttball (and even that is doubtful with healers being way overpowered).

2. You're the only person left on your team.

 

And the #2 situation, anybody without stealth is drastically inferior than anyone with stealth.

[Ybini]

I don't see tanks as op. No one I know of avoids them.

[L-RANDLE]

I really don't see what's so important about a class that can't stealth to survive for extended time when you're the only person left, because even if you're unkillable you can often be CCed while the other side caps. And when you're not the only person left, there is basically no reason why the other side should care about your survivality because anybody else is still a more attractive target. The infomercial list of tanking abilities is nowhere near enough to warrant the other side actually attacking you. There are only two situations where you need to focus the tank first:

 

1. He has the Huttball (and even that is doubtful with healers being way overpowered).

2. You're the only person left on your team.

 

And the #2 situation, anybody without stealth is drastically inferior than anyone with stealth.

Pretty much this..... Truth be told healers are the true tanks of PVP right now.... With all immunity flying around now..

[Jadescythe]

Did anyone read the OP? It took 2 sentences to realize this thread was worthless and we still gave him 8 pages?

 

8/10

[Ridickilis]

Did anyone read the OP? It took 2 sentences to realize this thread was worthless and we still gave him 8 pages?

 

8/10

 

Well to be fair the last 3-4 pages weren't even discussing the nonsense in the OP and it turned out to be a pretty good discussion on tanking and builds and whatnot. So I'd say it's all good in spite on the poorly thought out OP.

[Mahael]

Juggs/Guardians are too good. High damage resistance, high damage, lots of utility. Their pretty much the best class in PvP right now in almost all if not all situations besides healing.

 

Oh but Bioware wouldn't dare nerf a lightsaber class. I mean like come on, they gotz a lightsaber so we always make them OP.

 

All Bioware bashing aside, I'd like to refer you to the Elder Game Guide: http://www.swtor.com/info/eldergame

 

Gaurdian/Juggs are listed as a "Tank Damage" class while the other tank classes are simply listed as "Tank". So apparently this setup is intentional. So the question isn't IF this one tree is special it is WHY does this one tree get to be special?

[Khalhazar]

All Bioware bashing aside, I'd like to refer you to the Elder Game Guide: http://www.swtor.com/info/eldergame

 

Gaurdian/Juggs are listed as a "Tank Damage" class while the other tank classes are simply listed as "Tank". So apparently this setup is intentional. So the question isn't IF this one tree is special it is WHY does this one tree get to be special?

 

Of course, WoW had druids listed as "healers" for years, too. ;-)