pulling agro question in raids

[namesaretough]

Protip: you get bigger crits if you LoS your healers.

Yes, but the best way to top dps meters is to figure out who does more damage than you, then slowly convince the healers that person hates them so the healers let them die and you win.

60% of the time, it works every time.

[KeyboardNinja]

I do recall some inconsistencies in my threat logs as a sentinel. Yep found it. Here is a log from NiM EC Progression stuff. I actually have a -9,000,000 threat at one point. I also finish with a -22959.58 TPS.

 

I would often see that in my tank logs as well. If you have agro on Kephess when he leaps, you get a MASSIVE threat debuff. You see the same sort of thing with Bonethrasher (always an issue for 2-man progression). With that said, Force Camo does seem to occasionally do some really weird things. For example: http://www.torparse.com/a/251790/29/0/Threat (disclaimer: not my finest hour for DPS). I'm not sure exactly why it's like that.

[Grimsblood]

I would often see that in my tank logs as well. If you have agro on Kephess when he leaps, you get a MASSIVE threat debuff. You see the same sort of thing with Bonethrasher (always an issue for 2-man progression). With that said, Force Camo does seem to occasionally do some really weird things. For example: http://www.torparse.com/a/251790/29/0/Threat (disclaimer: not my finest hour for DPS). I'm not sure exactly why it's like that.

 

 

My log was from Firebrand and Storm caller.............not sure what would have happened there.

[grallmate]

Dread Guards, Kephess, Dash'roode, Thrasher, Warlords and Styrak

 

Of those, Dread Guards and Warlords you are attacking your own, untanked target for the first however long and if you're blowing your load at the start of Kephess you're wasting DPS potential, you should be waiting for the first pillar which gives both tanks ample time to taunt fluff. Probably the biggest issue there is that Kephess debuffs the highest threat tank as soon as he stands back up so both tanks need to be top.

 

The only specs in the game that benefits from popping everything right off the bat with a cold start are Combat Sentinel (GCD 2), Scrapper Scoundrel (GCD 0), Sharpshooter Gunslinger (GCD 0-3 depending on rotation/group) and possibly Infiltration Shadow and Gunnery Commando but I'm not as familiar with those specs. If you're coming in with procs from clearing trash (namely 30 stacks of Centering) you can add Focus Sentinels (GCD 1) to the list but with a cold start they're looking at GCD 3 before its really useful.

 

Of those, few people raid seriously on a Scrapper but its all about front loaded burst. Fortunately, they have travel time. Combat is my biggest concern and depending on rotation can burst HARD and near instantly. Sharpshooters that pre-cast Flyby during positioning and follow up with Speedshot -> Trickshot can hit ludicrously hard as well but its only really frontloaded if they're pre-casting otherwise you get 2 GCDs leeway or they start with a lower burst.

 

Importantly, unless you have a Combat Sentinel (or a way to start with 30 stacks of Centering like the exhaustion zone before TFB) you get more out of waiting for Inspiration before you pop everything thanks to multiplicity. Rarely will waiting 15 seconds for Inspiration cost you another use of a CD and if you have 2 Sentinels staggering Inspiration the gain is even higher if you wait. A third Inspiration is a DPS gain still but its less significant unless it is synced with your second round of CDs but then threat is a non-issue at that point. Point is, unless the boss is on farm or you have a Combat Sentinel, most pulls won't open with an Inspiration.

 

While I agree that a great tank will have no issues holding threat over bursting DPS, I still fail to see WHY DPS insist on bursting at GCD 0 (without a Combat Sentinel) when waiting a few seconds for an Inspiration window would give them more benefit. If you are in a position where a non-Combat Sentinel can reliably start with Inspiration you are likely already farming the boss or its only applicable to your first pull at which point the argument is largely moot.

 

On a vaguely related note, highest possible threat opener for a Guardian I can come up with is:

0 - Throw (2200)

1.5 - Leap (1300 -> 3500)

3.0 - Sweep + Combat Focus + Saber Reflect (2800 + 8600 -> 14900)

4.5 - Guardian Slash + Riposte + Taunt (4600 + 2000 -> 21500 + 30% -> 27950)

6.0 - Master Strike (10000 -> 37950)

9.0 - Blade Storm + Riposte (2800 + 2000 -> 42750)

10.5 - Hilt Strike + AoE taunt (3300 -> 46050 + 30% -> 59900)

 

Total TPS = 5700

 

Those numbers are using the minimum values from my logs for each of those abilities and since Throw is largely resource gain and the threat battle actually starts at Leap, effective TPS is 6650. Of course, that assumes I can use Saber Reflect for threat purposes (with no reflects I might add) rather than for mitigation. If we discount that the total threat is: 45300 with a gross TPS of 4300 and an effective TPS of 5030.

 

Personally I use a slightly different rotation that focuses more on getting my survivability mechanisms up and seeding my rotation for later but at the 10.5s mark my threat is within 1% of the maximum. I just have a slightly lower curve until the 7.5s mark thanks to the delayed Master Strike.

[Grimsblood]

Le Sigh

 

 

Of those, Dread Guards and Warlords you are attacking your own, untanked target for the first however long and if you're blowing your load at the start of Kephess you're wasting DPS potential, you should be waiting for the first pillar which gives both tanks ample time to taunt fluff. Probably the biggest issue there is that Kephess debuffs the highest threat tank as soon as he stands back up so both tanks need to be top.

 

You do realize I can crit Kephess for 23k (no decimal in there) off the GCD for his burn phase? Add in latent dots, a time cast and CD's............good friggin luck. Nice for the tanks, is that they are used to taunt swapping for this so they should naturally pick him up. The funny thing is that the point of that conversation was to be able to use the extra threat gain on taunts from standing at range vs melee. Please read and understand the conversation.

 

The only specs in the game that benefits from popping everything right off the bat with a cold start are Combat Sentinel (GCD 2), Scrapper Scoundrel (GCD 0), Sharpshooter Gunslinger (GCD 0-3 depending on rotation/group) and possibly Infiltration Shadow and Gunnery Commando but I'm not as familiar with those specs. If you're coming in with procs from clearing trash (namely 30 stacks of Centering) you can add Focus Sentinels (GCD 1) to the list but with a cold start they're looking at GCD 3 before its really useful.

 

Please add in Saboteur Slinger, Hybrid and Dirty Fighting on the 4th GCD which (will shoot their dps through the roof), Focus Guardian, Watchmen Sentinels (The can rip after the 30 centering build if you aren't carefull, they get threat from heals as well), Vanguards, TK Sages (will have some of the best front loaded burst if things proc), Hybrid and Blanace Sages can force crit some burst in the first 2-3 GCD's, Infi Shadows have some very nice on demand burst. So, I have Guardian, Sentinel, Vanguard, Gunslinger, Scoundrel, Commando, Shadow and Sage now......I believe that is all 8 AC's; no?

 

 

Of those, few people raid seriously on a Scrapper but its all about front loaded burst. Fortunately, they have travel time. Combat is my biggest concern and depending on rotation can burst HARD and near instantly. Sharpshooters that pre-cast Flyby during positioning and follow up with Speedshot -> Trickshot can hit ludicrously hard as well but its only really frontloaded if they're pre-casting otherwise you get 2 GCDs leeway or they start with a lower burst.

 

I am not going to go into the openers for all the specs, but suffice to say that your intent is to highlight the classes that can frontload their damage. All the AC's have a way of frontloading massive damage in their openers. If you get the same skill level with each one, they will all rip in the beginning. That is what we are discussing, is a tank bad if he gets pulled off of and what can be done to change it. MY argument is, there is an at LEAST 50% chance that it can happen and the tank will be helpless to control it without the Pull --> Taunt --> Drop Threat scenario.

 

 

Importantly, unless you have a Combat Sentinel (or a way to start with 30 stacks of Centering like the exhaustion zone before TFB) you get more out of waiting for Inspiration before you pop everything thanks to multiplicity. Rarely will waiting 15 seconds for Inspiration cost you another use of a CD and if you have 2 Sentinels staggering Inspiration the gain is even higher if you wait. A third Inspiration is a DPS gain still but its less significant unless it is synced with your second round of CDs but then threat is a non-issue at that point. Point is, unless the boss is on farm or you have a Combat Sentinel, most pulls won't open with an Inspiration.

 

I couldn't agree more about positioning of Inspiration. Please take note that the numbers I was using was without that ability present. It was also with me wasting a GCD for the armor crack (I leave the commandos and the Guardians to apply that for me). My damage would go up considerably with using an Inspiration and outside armor crack......

 

 

While I agree that a great tank will have no issues holding threat over bursting DPS, I still fail to see WHY DPS insist on bursting at GCD 0 (without a Combat Sentinel) when waiting a few seconds for an Inspiration window would give them more benefit. If you are in a position where a non-Combat Sentinel can reliably start with Inspiration you are likely already farming the boss or its only applicable to your first pull at which point the argument is largely moot.

 

We are not discussing dps tactics that you don't understand. The model is isolated to my numbers. I have not gone though adding in a Sentinel or other dps to the mix. That would just further complicate some base observation.

 

 

 

On a vaguely related note, highest possible threat opener for a Guardian I can come up with is:

0 - Throw (2200)

1.5 - Leap (1300 -> 3500)

3.0 - Sweep + Combat Focus + Saber Reflect (2800 + 8600 -> 14900)

4.5 - Guardian Slash + Riposte + Taunt (4600 + 2000 -> 21500 + 30% -> 27950)

6.0 - Master Strike (10000 -> 37950)

9.0 - Blade Storm + Riposte (2800 + 2000 -> 42750)

10.5 - Hilt Strike + AoE taunt (3300 -> 46050 + 30% -> 59900)

 

Total TPS = 5700

 

Those numbers are using the minimum values from my logs for each of those abilities and since Throw is largely resource gain and the threat battle actually starts at Leap, effective TPS is 6650. Of course, that assumes I can use Saber Reflect for threat purposes (with no reflects I might add) rather than for mitigation. If we discount that the total threat is: 45300 with a gross TPS of 4300 and an effective TPS of 5030.

 

Personally I use a slightly different rotation that focuses more on getting my survivability mechanisms up and seeding my rotation for later but at the 10.5s mark my threat is within 1% of the maximum. I just have a slightly lower curve until the 7.5s mark thanks to the delayed Master Strike.

 

First off.........Effective TPS? Seriously? No, just no no no. The ONLY area that would come in is multiple targets and we would have to model it completely different. In any event, your 4300 TPS is dangerously close to not being enough for my damage. Just for you, I adjusted my initial log to show 11 seconds vs 30 here. My TPS at the end is 5452 TPS. You are behind by about 1.1k TPS. I would need 5590 TPS to pull off of you here (best case scenario). However, we account for the fact that you are a Guardian and I have moved into melee range for my abilities we come to 4730 TPS that I need to pull off of you. I am sitting at 5452 TPS.......I pulled. Now what? I am a Saboteur Gunslinger......

 

 

The results of the show, that Guardians have bad Threat generation in the beginning. As result a Guardian can do absoluetly nothing to keep threat. The raid must resort to some other methods of managing the threat (Pulls, leaps aggro drops) or use the Pull --> Taunt --> Drop method. (I will also point out that your taunts are blown and you have about 10 seconds before they are up again ).

 

Now if I use my threat drop at the end I pull my threat down to 4089 TPS. You are sitting at the 4300 and all I need is 700 more TPS to pull again.....Do you think I could do that much more threat in that 10 second window before your taunt comes back? I do, especially with Relics and Adrenals still active. God forbid I get an Inspiration anywhere in there.................................................

[OriginalTomoka]

Here, here! Gotta break those dps records and stand in the red to do so!

 

And this is the reason I despise you and half of our DPS. Terrible people.

 

Yes, but the best way to top dps meters is to figure out who does more damage than you, then slowly convince the healers that person hates them so the healers let them die and you win.

 

60% of the time, it works every time.

 

I fell for this. I am an idiot.

Edited May 31, 2013 by OriginalTomoka

[Grimsblood]

And this is the reason I despise you and half of our DPS. Terrible people.

 

 

 

I fell for this. I am an idiot.

 

No wonder I KEEP dying on trash

[grallmate]

You do realize I can crit Kephess for 23k (no decimal in there) off the GCD for his burn phase? Add in latent dots, a time cast and CD's............good friggin luck. Nice for the tanks, is that they are used to taunt swapping for this so they should naturally pick him up. The funny thing is that the point of that conversation was to be able to use the extra threat gain on taunts from standing at range vs melee. Please read and understand the conversation.

 

Do you understand how the aggro mechanics on Kephess work? If the tanks swap pre-emptively they are building off each other but if they wait until after the debuff goes out they are only building off the next highest threat target. Given how heavily all 3 tanks suffer in the threat department when they aren't actively tanking that probably isn't them. You also realize of course, that the end of the first pillar is a PERFECT time to taunt Kephess... for both tanks.

 

 

Please add in Saboteur Slinger, Hybrid and Dirty Fighting on the 4th GCD which (will shoot their dps through the roof), Focus Guardian, Watchmen Sentinels (The can rip after the 30 centering build if you aren't carefull, they get threat from heals as well), Vanguards, TK Sages (will have some of the best front loaded burst if things proc), Hybrid and Blanace Sages can force crit some burst in the first 2-3 GCD's, Infi Shadows have some very nice on demand burst. So, I have Guardian, Sentinel, Vanguard, Gunslinger, Scoundrel, Commando, Shadow and Sage now......I believe that is all 8 AC's; no?

 

At the 4th GCD tanks are more than halfway through their opening volley and both myself and KBN have just taunted. I am ONLY considering the ones that actively benefit from popping everything on their opening volley. Anything with DoTs or set up benefits from waiting until that set up is achieved.

 

I will admit I overlooked Focus Guardian who should be added to my list, but to be honest its not a build I commonly see except among tanks who use it for the DPS offspec.

 

I am not going to go into the openers for all the specs, but suffice to say that your intent is to highlight the classes that can frontload their damage. All the AC's have a way of frontloading massive damage in their openers. If you get the same skill level with each one, they will all rip in the beginning. That is what we are discussing, is a tank bad if he gets pulled off of and what can be done to change it. MY argument is, there is an at LEAST 50% chance that it can happen and the tank will be helpless to control it without the Pull --> Taunt --> Drop Threat scenario.

 

I am not denying that any class CAN front load its damage. I am arguing that few specs actually benefit from doing so. It also depends on your idea of 'front load'. I consider front loading to be inside the first couple (literally 2) of GCDs, by GCD 4+ tanks are in a reasonable position and most have or will shortly be burning taunt. I don't know why you consider Vanguards to be a 0 GCD burst class unless they are starting the fight with stacks of Pulse Generator, but even then they still need 2 GCDs for set up before they unload with that.

 

Of the specs I listed, I run a Marksman Sniper, Carnage Marauder, Focus Sentinel, Assault/Hybrid Vanguard and TK Sage. I know exactly how hard and when they can and do burst. I also run Guardian and Shadow tanks so I know what their threat generation is like and work my DPS burst around that.

 

I couldn't agree more about positioning of Inspiration. Please take note that the numbers I was using was without that ability present. It was also with me wasting a GCD for the armor crack (I leave the commandos and the Guardians to apply that for me). My damage would go up considerably with using an Inspiration and outside armor crack......

 

Congratulations, you're one of the best geared DPS in the game. What's your point past that? If you're holding off until Inspiration your initial argument is moot if you're not then you're wasting DPS potential simply to make the tanks job harder. If you're getting Inspiration on your opener thanks to a Combat Sentinel then we go back to "Congratulations, you're one of the best geared DPS in the game".

 

First off.........Effective TPS? Seriously? No, just no no no. The ONLY area that would come in is multiple targets and we would have to model it completely different. In any event, your 4300 TPS is dangerously close to not being enough for my damage. Just for you, I adjusted my initial log to show 11 seconds vs 30 here. My TPS at the end is 5452 TPS. You are behind by about 1.1k TPS. I would need 5590 TPS to pull off of you here (best case scenario). However, we account for the fact that you are a Guardian and I have moved into melee range for my abilities we come to 4730 TPS that I need to pull off of you. I am sitting at 5452 TPS.......I pulled. Now what? I am a Saboteur Gunslinger......

 

TPS is a useful measure if you both start at the same point. However, Guardian's essentially get a free Saber Throw before the threat race really starts. As such, my 'effective TPS' is discounting the first GCD and has nothing to do with multiple targets. If you aren't waiting until the Guardian has leaped in (or even if you are pre-casting on the Throw) its not really the tanks fault. If you are knowingly exceeding the possible threat generation of your tanks you need to learn to manage your threat better. There is a big difference between being a good DPS and being a high DPS.

 

I don't know why you are trying to compare to the melee threat threshold as a Gunslinger... Combat is literally the only DPS I am seriously concerned about though. Every second their in combat and delaying their opener they have the chance to proc HoJ and lose a chuck of DPS. Every other spec either gains DPS by waiting a few seconds to blow CDs or at worst, doesn't lose DPS by doing so.

 

The results of the show, that Guardians have bad Threat generation in the beginning. As result a Guardian can do absoluetly nothing to keep threat. The raid must resort to some other methods of managing the threat (Pulls, leaps aggro drops) or use the Pull --> Taunt --> Drop method. (I will also point out that your taunts are blown and you have about 10 seconds before they are up again ).

 

Now if I use my threat drop at the end I pull my threat down to 4089 TPS. You are sitting at the 4300 and all I need is 700 more TPS to pull again.....Do you think I could do that much more threat in that 10 second window before your taunt comes back? I do, especially with Relics and Adrenals still active. God forbid I get an Inspiration anywhere in there.................................................

 

If you discount Saber Reflect all it shows is that Shadows have better initial threat generation than a Guardian. You also need to remember I am assuming I don't miss, but I am also using the minimum numbers for these abilities, not the averages while you are using your higher potentials. Regarding the taunts, yes they are both blown, but at this point I still have 6s of the fixate debuff and only 3 seconds after that before my taunt is available again. If I'm actively tanking much of that time is spent using Focus burners and I've got all my heavy hitters coming off CD right before that fixate buff wears off.

 

You are also working off a largely fallacious (although understandable) argument. You need to surpass the tanks threat TOTAL by 30% not his threat generation. I know the TPS vs DPS argument is used a lot but early on (especially in the first few seconds) it isn't really that accurate for a number of reasons including varying start times and varying threat curves between tanks and DPS. Now if you're waiting 10 seconds before you blow everything and you still rip off the tank I totally agree its the tanks fault. On the other hand, if you're going all out at GCD 0, who has aggro can completely come down to RNG between crits and misses.

 

Most of the time it'll be the tank with aggro but if they miss on a threat bomb or if the DPS crit on a few of their big hitters it can quickly change. Personally, I prefer not to put it up to chance which is why (aside from the mathematical/DPS benefits of waiting) I ask my DPS to hold off a couple of seconds. Literally just count to 2 once I leap/have positioned the boss and then go balls to the wall if they want. I do the same thing for tanks when I'm on my DPS toons, sometimes even then I rip aggro if the tanks don't taunt preemptively and even when they do I still see it swap to me when the fixate expires.

 

Ultimately, if you're capable of generating more threat than is possible from the tank while using a front loaded threat rotation and taunting then YOU need to hold back until the tank has sufficient aggro. Failure to do that does make you a bad (albeit very high) DPS. As an aside, if thats the case you are well and truly above the DPS requirements so you have no risk of hitting the enrage as a result of holding back for 5 seconds, all you are doing is stroking your epeen.

Edited May 31, 2013 by grallmate

[grallmate]

First off.........Effective TPS? Seriously? No, just no no no. The ONLY area that would come in is multiple targets and we would have to model it completely different. In any event, your 4300 TPS is dangerously close to not being enough for my damage. Just for you, I adjusted my initial log to show 11 seconds vs 30 here. My TPS at the end is 5452 TPS. You are behind by about 1.1k TPS. I would need 5590 TPS to pull off of you here (best case scenario). However, we account for the fact that you are a Guardian and I have moved into melee range for my abilities we come to 4730 TPS that I need to pull off of you. I am sitting at 5452 TPS.......I pulled. Now what? I am a Saboteur Gunslinger......

 

Yes I know this is a double post, but just noticed with your logs that you are PRE-CASTING Flyby before the combat starts and I didn't want that to get lost in the wall of text above.

 

This is not a true representation of an Ops encounter opener. You either need to discount the Flyby damage (giving ~4000 DPS over those 11 seconds) or add in 3 seconds of casting it before hand (giving ~4400 DPS over 14 seconds). To be perfectly honest, if I had a DPS like you in my raid that was more interested in numbers and wanted to pre-cast Flyby before I pulled, I'd move the boss out of it (or just let them get destroyed) until they got the point.

 

I'm all for discussions about how high tank threat needs to be to hold over reasonable DPS but when people misrepresent what is possible for no point other than stroking themselves, it defeats the purpose.

[Grimsblood]

I am going to finish raiding, then get to passive aggressively telling you why you are wrong.

[grallmate]

I am going to finish raiding, then get to passive aggressively telling you why you are wrong.

 

I'm glad you managed to take time out of your busy schedule of raiding to post that.

 

BTW, 4400 DPS on the opener isn't that worrying as a tank. Especially since it gives me ~6s before you're actually putting out any appreciable threat. With the Flyby pre-cast it looks a lot more impressive (and worrying) than it actually is.

[Nibbon]

I am going to finish raiding, then get to passive aggressively telling you why you are wrong.

 

The lesson to be learned here is that sages are viable dps

[namesaretough]

The lesson to be learned here is that sages are viable dps

Running 4 gunslingers would have just made it too easy

[deceptweb]

Viably at the bottom of the dps charts

[Panzerfire]

Back to generating threat for tanks.

Is it possible for a tank to always hold aggro on two seperate mobs (adds on Golden Fury) when each is targeted by a 72 geared dps? Even with double guards it was close and sometimes one of the adds would slip away. And no, burning one add and then the second one is easy to manage with threat, I'm talking about a challenge for tanks. Aoe taunt had to be used later in the rotation, which means you have to spam a targeted aoe attack at the start so they start doing their cast on you. Anyway, it seemed doable but I have to refine my rotation (as an Assassin), and you have double the chance to screw up due to misses or strings of crits.

[AAAAzrael]

On Golden Fury HM adds I struggle to target them quickly enough and I end up needing to AOE taunt very often. Dunno if I am doing something wrong there. Both targeting by tabbing or clicking seems to start to work very late about when they start attacking the healers. Just using next target and hitting slow time until it targets them automatically is too slow as well. Maybe I just generally have more lag then everyone else or something but 1/2 of the time I end up needing to burn my AOE taunt at the start which is deeply wrong. Any suggestion here?

 

By the way do you generally use 2 DPS or 1 DPS on them?

[Grimsblood]

Back to generating threat for tanks.

Is it possible for a tank to always hold aggro on two seperate mobs (adds on Golden Fury) when each is targeted by a 72 geared dps? Even with double guards it was close and sometimes one of the adds would slip away. And no, burning one add and then the second one is easy to manage with threat, I'm talking about a challenge for tanks. Aoe taunt had to be used later in the rotation, which means you have to spam a targeted aoe attack at the start so they start doing their cast on you. Anyway, it seemed doable but I have to refine my rotation (as an Assassin), and you have double the chance to screw up due to misses or strings of crits.

 

Yes it is. However, it comes down to two things:

 

1) Proper Timing of your AoE Taunt.

2) What kind of tank you are. (Shadows will have the easiest time, Followed by Vanguards and Guardians are almost hopeless)

 

On Golden Fury HM adds I struggle to target them quickly enough and I end up needing to AOE taunt very often. Dunno if I am doing something wrong there. Both targeting by tabbing or clicking seems to start to work very late about when they start attacking the healers. Just using next target and hitting slow time until it targets them automatically is too slow as well. Maybe I just generally have more lag then everyone else or something but 1/2 of the time I end up needing to burn my AOE taunt at the start which is deeply wrong. Any suggestion here?

 

By the way do you generally use 2 DPS or 1 DPS on them?

 

Not much you can do if a healer pulls. But you can get threat back without using an AoE taunt. Slow Time + Breach should do the trick for you. Project one and TK throw the other. Your biggest concern will be the dps. Since there is all kinds of delay from the adds before you can target them (stupid animation showing them not really there) it may be wise to have the dps hold back until you have initiated combat.

 

 

Do you understand how the aggro mechanics on Kephess work? If the tanks swap pre-emptively they are building off each other but if they wait until after the debuff goes out they are only building off the next highest threat target. Given how heavily all 3 tanks suffer in the threat department when they aren't actively tanking that probably isn't them. You also realize of course, that the end of the first pillar is a PERFECT time to taunt Kephess... for both tanks.

 

Yes, apparently you do not. Let me teach you something. When Kephess puts the debuff on Tank A, he targets the next highest threat on his threat table (Ideally that would be the OT, but OT's tend to be lazy so it is usually a dps). After Tank A Clears his debuff, he then has his full amount of threat again (He never looses his threat, his threat is just ignored for the duration of the debuff). Let's assume Tank B taunts just before the debuff goes out. What will happen is Tank B will be placed on top of the threat table and Tank A will be #2. Tank B will have his threat ignored until his debuff is cleared. Tank A would then have aggro on Kephess; unless Tank A taunts Kephess after he puts the debuff out, odds are Tank B will pull highest threat soon as the debuff is cleared which will cause Kephess to snap in his direction...In any event, it makes no difference. You are arguing the use of taunt stacking to hold threat and not an individual tanks ability to hold threat (skill and class mechanic wise).

 

Please tell me which tank suffers in the threat department when they are not actively tanking the boss. I know of no consistent tanking damage reflects that are vital to threat generation in this game. I mean a case may be able to be made for Guardians for their reflect; BUT that only covers Ranged, Force and Tech attacks. If memory is correct Kephess has 1 ranged "rail shot-like" attack that is normal for him. The only case that can be made is for Shadows. That case is they get force regen when then Dodge, Parry or Shield an attack. Without that regen, they have to use a basic attack in their rotation to sustain force levels. But let's be serious........it doesn't break them. Verdict: OT are lazy and need to play better; but who cares, they have an insta threat button.

 

Yes! I do realize the end of the first pillar is a PERFECT time to taunt Kephess! For soo many tanking mechanic and threat pull reasons. However, we aren't really discussing when a boss should be taunted in relation to mechanics. We are discussing the capabilities of a tank to actually hold threat within the beginning of a fight. I say at least 50% of the time dps can and will rip off of a tank and the tank would not have been able to do anything BEFORE it. Keyboarninja is of the opinion that a tank can do something before it in a static rotation.

 

 

 

At the 4th GCD tanks are more than halfway through their opening volley and both myself and KBN have just taunted. I am ONLY considering the ones that actively benefit from popping everything on their opening volley. Anything with DoTs or set up benefits from waiting until that set up is achieved.

 

You obviously do not dps or push a dps class. It is better for DoT classes to hold back CD's until they can hit their big moves so there are more big moves in the CD window. For Slingers, it is just before the 4th GCD. For Sages, it is at GCD 1 (or two, depends on how they are opening but no later then 2). Just because the Power Boosts are delayed does not mean you will have it easy establishing a threat margin greater then dps. It means you have that amount of time to watch the dps make your life miserable. If you used dps relics and adrenals as a tank, you may have a fighting chance, but that just makes mitigation stats go bye bye...........not the smartest thing in NiM.

 

 

I am not denying that any class CAN front load its damage. I am arguing that few specs actually benefit from doing so. It also depends on your idea of 'front load'. I consider front loading to be inside the first couple (literally 2) of GCDs, by GCD 4+ tanks are in a reasonable position and most have or will shortly be burning taunt. I don't know why you consider Vanguards to be a 0 GCD burst class unless they are starting the fight with stacks of Pulse Generator, but even then they still need 2 GCDs for set up before they unload with that.

 

Of the specs I listed, I run a Marksman Sniper, Carnage Marauder, Focus Sentinel, Assault/Hybrid Vanguard and TK Sage. I know exactly how hard and when they can and do burst. I also run Guardian and Shadow tanks so I know what their threat generation is like and work my DPS burst around that.

 

Front loaded damage is any hard hitting damage that can be done in an instant at the beginning rather then built up. Your whole methodology of GCD 4+ being the safe zone is inaccurate. In a previous post I highlighted what would happen if a "perfect" Shadow rotation was to go up against my dps. The result, me tanking. You may argue your taunt placement will save you. That is right if you use it after I pull threat. Stockstrike + HiB is a hard hitting combo, not to mention if they set up some burst with a grenade when you do your "Free Saber Throw" stacking their burst even more.......

 

 

You say you work your dps rotation around the tanks threat thresholds. That is nice of you, but nerfing the damage you do. Our discussion here assumes dps is doing their BEST rotation by putting out the maximum damage. We agree on the fact that to limit a dps's ability to deal damage, you are forcing them to be infective. We agree that that is bad and we are not going to do it.

 

Congratulations, you're one of the best geared DPS in the game. What's your point past that? If you're holding off until Inspiration your initial argument is moot if you're not then you're wasting DPS potential simply to make the tanks job harder. If you're getting Inspiration on your opener thanks to a Combat Sentinel then we go back to "Congratulations, you're one of the best geared DPS in the game".

 

Why thank you! I probably am. I am only missing 1 Relic (I use a PvP one and there was that bug, but let's not dwell). I am full BiS 72, yes that means all my enhancements are the "good ones". But sadly, that gear doesn't mean a lot if I couldn't handle my class. My point is, I was using an average training dummy parse to give numbers for comparison. I was not stacking the deck in my favor. In an operation, well.............you f****ing stack the deck in favor of your dps by putting Sentinels in their group and not the healers. In my numbers WITHOUT the deck stacked in my favor, I am still ripping of a tank doing their "maximum threat possible" rotation. If you stack the deck in my favor, you just make my case for me due to my increased TPS.

 

Oh btw, what does having a Combat Sentinel have to do with being the best geared dps in the game?

 

 

TPS is a useful measure if you both start at the same point. However, Guardian's essentially get a free Saber Throw before the threat race really starts. As such, my 'effective TPS' is discounting the first GCD and has nothing to do with multiple targets. If you aren't waiting until the Guardian has leaped in (or even if you are pre-casting on the Throw) its not really the tanks fault. If you are knowingly exceeding the possible threat generation of your tanks you need to learn to manage your threat better. There is a big difference between being a good DPS and being a high DPS.

 

I don't know why you are trying to compare to the melee threat threshold as a Gunslinger... Combat is literally the only DPS I am seriously concerned about though. Every second their in combat and delaying their opener they have the chance to proc HoJ and lose a chuck of DPS. Every other spec either gains DPS by waiting a few seconds to blow CDs or at worst, doesn't lose DPS by doing so.

 

I am going to have fun with this one.

 

This "Free Saber Throw" you are talking about is not a benefit to you. It comes from you INITIATING combat. Every tank has an ability they do first. Just the other two tanks can do 8k threat first vs your 2k (maybe)....

 

So, still on the "effective TPS" idea......let's, for a moment, discuss EHPS (Effective Heals Per Second). EHPS is the amount of heals done to a target(s) that fills their health bar up to and no more then 100%. A healer with a massive amount of over heals (heals given to a target that is at full health) is either healing the wrong target or spamming AoE's. A healer will use EHPS to see how much damage they are actually healing and what abilities are not really giving a target health. This is why it is called "Effective". Now back to Threat.............all threat is effect given a single target. The tank must have the MOST effective threat (highest) in order to control the boss. A tanks threat will always be measured in effective threat. Now a dps can have "wasted" threat (if there is such a thing) or rather a lower "Effective" threat then their actual threat. This happens when a dps dot's up a target then tab targets and repeats. It can also happen if a dps uses their higher priority rotation on one target and then their "fillers" on a second target. There are other cases where dps can spread out damage. In the spreading of damage, their overall threat is high but their ETPS is low realative to each individual target.

 

Ok, so in the quote above...the bolded/red statement. Yeah that one.....You admit to a dps being able to generate more threat then a given tank! That was kind of one of my points. It is possible and does happen! You claim a good dps is nice to the tanks, we say a good dps pushes the damage his class can do (and stands in the red and LoS's healers ofc ). I say a good tank knows how to watch the "Target of Target" frame and SOON as it is not on him, he taunts --> DPS threat drops and you win. By your definition of a good dps, you (in effect) ask the dps to do LESS damage then he can/should be doing because YOU can't manage the threat. What does that make you?...asking someone to make your job easier..........................Did you complain about HM LI when it was released? (I apologize, that was taking it too far)

 

 

Now on to that last little bit there about Gunslinger in melee range. I play a Saboteur Gunslinger. We have this nifty thing called Scatter Bombs that I get 25% of my damage from. I need to be in melee range, position, time and then roll 18 meters and get all 5 bombs to hit the boss (I have to perform tricky roll in places on humanoid or small hit box targets). Because of this, I am in melee rage a good portion of the time; especially on the open when I roll twice.

 

On to the bit about Combat! You are inaccurate saying "every second they're (Spelling? ) in combat and delaying their opener they have a chance to proc HoJ and loose a chunk of dps". You literally imply that HoJ has a chance to proc on a timer and not an action.............might want to read the tooltip again buddy. HoJ actually procs off of Ataru Stikes. If they are not attack, they are not getting Ataru Strikes. Yes, their dps is going to suffer, they are not doing damage!

 

"Every other spec either gains DPS by waiting a few seconds to blow CDs or at worst, doesn't lose DPS by doing so."................................................Didn't we already agree that Focus Guardians are in there? Not to mention Scoundrels, Shadows, Gunslingers, Sages and Vanguards? I mean really!? The "Push this button to do more damage" should NOT be used ASAP? Those buttons (under "normal" circumstances) should be used any time you are able to push them. The few cases where you do not are for specific burn phases or delaying for Inspiration. Since we assume no outside interference for our dps to tank threat comparison, we do not have to worry about holding back.

 

 

If you discount Saber Reflect all it shows is that Shadows have better initial threat generation than a Guardian. You also need to remember I am assuming I don't miss, but I am also using the minimum numbers for these abilities, not the averages while you are using your higher potentials. Regarding the taunts, yes they are both blown, but at this point I still have 6s of the fixate debuff and only 3 seconds after that before my taunt is available again. If I'm actively tanking much of that time is spent using Focus burners and I've got all my heavy hitters coming off CD right before that fixate buff wears off.

 

Saber Reflect can not be depended on due to its reliance on a boss doing a specific attack. You have to wait for that attack and use it there for it to be effective. I classify Saber Reflect under the "Special" category with Sage Pulls and Guardian Leaps for threat management. Since that is out of the way and we agree that Guardian INITIAL threat generation is lower then a Shadows and I win vs a Shadow 50% of the time we can assume that I shouldn't have to address Guardians again, no?

 

I am not using my higher potentials. I am using average. I could factor in a lucky string of crits and skew everything in my favor.....Your rotation may be in a good place, but there is still a strong chance I am going to pull threat somewhere in there. That is kinda the point. DPS can outclass tank threat generation if taunts are not used when a dps pulls threat.

 

You are also working off a largely fallacious (although understandable) argument. You need to surpass the tanks threat TOTAL by 30% not his threat generation. I know the TPS vs DPS argument is used a lot but early on (especially in the first few seconds) it isn't really that accurate for a number of reasons including varying start times and varying threat curves between tanks and DPS. Now if you're waiting 10 seconds before you blow everything and you still rip off the tank I totally agree its the tanks fault. On the other hand, if you're going all out at GCD 0, who has aggro can completely come down to RNG between crits and misses.

 

Where is the fallacious part? All I need is 110% of the tanks threat to pull off of him (standing in melee range, like I would) or 130%( standing at range) at most. Go back and look at the numbers and do the math between my average TPS and the tanks in different scenarios (I am also assuming the tanks hits 100% of the time, even though we all know that if a tank misses..........they don't have a leg to stand on). Varrying start times can cause a problem with the numbers; however, we assume that the tank gets the first hit followed milliseconds by the dps attacking (Ideally both at the same time, but for practical reasons the tank should have the first hit to pull initial threat followed by the dps begining). Now, as far as varying threat curves between tank classes and dps specs...I agree and that is the point. The initial threat curve of a dps can outclass that of a tank (especially Guardians). As a result of the (and to help the OP out), I suggest doing the Pull -> Taunt --> Drop Threat "rotation" in order to assist in his tanks threat establishment. Keyboardninja is saying that if a tank looses threat at any point, he is bad. I am disagreeing due to the capability of dps to outclass threat generation (assuming a standard and not special circumstances).

 

Most of the time it'll be the tank with aggro but if they miss on a threat bomb or if the DPS crit on a few of their big hitters it can quickly change. Personally, I prefer not to put it up to chance which is why (aside from the mathematical/DPS benefits of waiting) I ask my DPS to hold off a couple of seconds. Literally just count to 2 once I leap/have positioned the boss and then go balls to the wall if they want. I do the same thing for tanks when I'm on my DPS toons, sometimes even then I rip aggro if the tanks don't taunt preemptively and even when they do I still see it swap to me when the fixate expires.

 

You are nerfing the dps, wouldn't it be better to create a situation where dps can start and tanks can get a good baseline threat? Hint, hint................. Pull -> Taunt --> Drop Threat is not a bad thing and a very good tool that is effective in all scenarios.

 

Ultimately, if you're capable of generating more threat than is possible from the tank while using a front loaded threat rotation and taunting then YOU need to hold back until the tank has sufficient aggro. Failure to do that does make you a bad (albeit very high) DPS. As an aside, if thats the case you are well and truly above the DPS requirements so you have no risk of hitting the enrage as a result of holding back for 5 seconds, all you are doing is stroking your epeen.

 

16 man NiM Firebrand and Stormcaller pre-nerf..................that is all i really need to say. Who here can attest to that enrage timer being tight? I know I can, heh....you guys think 8 Man HM Styrak is bad....pft.

 

You are simply making excuses for bad tanking now. It is never a dps's fault for pulling threat. By numbers they can outclass tank threat generation. That is why tanks have the "Gib Threat Naow" button.....learn to use it at the right time and there is never an issue in a raid. Good tanks think ahead and plan. Quite simply, if you have a strong dps with you, save your bloody taunt until he pulls you ding dong!

 

 

Yes I know this is a double post, but just noticed with your logs that you are PRE-CASTING Flyby before the combat starts and I didn't want that to get lost in the wall of text above.

 

This is not a true representation of an Ops encounter opener. You either need to discount the Flyby damage (giving ~4000 DPS over those 11 seconds) or add in 3 seconds of casting it before hand (giving ~4400 DPS over 14 seconds). To be perfectly honest, if I had a DPS like you in my raid that was more interested in numbers and wanted to pre-cast Flyby before I pulled, I'd move the boss out of it (or just let them get destroyed) until they got the point.

 

I'm all for discussions about how high tank threat needs to be to hold over reasonable DPS but when people misrepresent what is possible for no point other than stroking themselves, it defeats the purpose.

 

And finally, this......................................................

 

If you are a gunslinger and NOT pre-casting Flyby and/or Aim Shot, you are doing it wrong. It is the equivalent of a tank deciding he should never use a taunt. Idk what you do in your raids, I know we here at Severity Pre-Cast about 5-7 Flybys on ALL of our pulls. Our tanks can hold threat not only againts me, but 2-3 MORE Gunslingers that are just as good (Total of 3-4 if you can't count. That also means at least one of us is not Guarded). Furthermore, we have 1 Combat Sent, 1 Hybrid AND some great Vanguards. Our kill times are some of the fastest in game. We have cleared ALL current content the week it released (most of it in one night). Am I measuring an E-Peen here!?.................YES. We are good and our tanks can do their job and not QQ about threat. It is tanks like you that make tanks look bad.

 

If I was on my healer healing you, I would just not cast a heal on you because you are no using your defensive CD's on CD (special cases aside). All so you you would die and get the point to mitigate as much damage as possible! Now, tell me that isn't just the stupidest thing you have heard and go reread your comment and adjust your newbness. (Not gonna apologize for this one, L2P rings bells here)

 

Now if you want to discuss numbers, please come back with something viable besides conjecture and hearsay. I gave my data assuming dps is able to do their job and not cater to a bad tank. Keyboardninja gave his. What it boils down to for our individual argument is the taunt placement or rather the intent of the taunt (assume dps is going to pull, or assume you are going to do more then dps). We have our supporting arguments........you sir have nothing but "please don't attack the boss because I can't tank".

Edited May 31, 2013 by Grimsblood

[Nibbon]

On Golden Fury HM adds I struggle to target them quickly enough and I end up needing to AOE taunt very often. Dunno if I am doing something wrong there. Both targeting by tabbing or clicking seems to start to work very late about when they start attacking the healers. Just using next target and hitting slow time until it targets them automatically is too slow as well. Maybe I just generally have more lag then everyone else or something but 1/2 of the time I end up needing to burn my AOE taunt at the start which is deeply wrong. Any suggestion here?

 

By the way do you generally use 2 DPS or 1 DPS on them?

 

You could totes use a Sage, totally viable, DPS to burst damage up front and taunt off them.

[Grimsblood]

You could totes use a Sage, totally viable, DPS to burst damage up front and taunt off them.

 

roflol........................where is the "Sage DPS is Viable (For Bottom of the meter)" thread you were going to put up?

[Nibbon]

roflol........................where is the "Sage DPS is Viable (For Bottom of the meter)" thread you were going to put up?

 

I'm hijacking this one, more visibility.

[Grimsblood]

I'm hijacking this one, more visibility.

 

Oh, ok. Just don't ruin Smugglin's entertainment.

[AAAAzrael]

You could totes use a Sage, totally viable, DPS to burst damage up front and taunt off them.

 

LOL I'll do that

 

Thanks for advise above too. I thought it was me doing something wrong, but it seems targetting issue is general here.

 

I can tank GF in this fight all day long and have fun, but adds I hate. I can do it but I hate them.

[namesaretough]

On Golden Fury HM adds I struggle to target them quickly enough and I end up needing to AOE taunt very often. Dunno if I am doing something wrong there. Both targeting by tabbing or clicking seems to start to work very late about when they start attacking the healers. Just using next target and hitting slow time until it targets them automatically is too slow as well. Maybe I just generally have more lag then everyone else or something but 1/2 of the time I end up needing to burn my AOE taunt at the start which is deeply wrong. Any suggestion here?

 

By the way do you generally use 2 DPS or 1 DPS on them?

It takes a lot longer than you'd think to be able to target these adds (it's not just you, they simply can't be targeted), and it's not much time at all between when they are able to be targeted and when they start attacking. I'm not entirely sure the best way to handle it, but I know I usually end up tanking the last half of the first droid we kill (on my gunslinger) with a defensive cooldown, so if it dies quickly enough maybe that's a viable way for your group to do it. It would be easier to do this with 2 dps, as the first droid will die faster. I lead with a flyby as often as possible, so healers typically aren't the ones to pull initial aggro, I am. Any sort of AOE from your dps would probably keep your healers from getting hit.

 

Oh, ok. Just don't ruin Smugglin's entertainment.

I'm a sucker for essay wars.

Edited May 31, 2013 by namesaretough

[AAAAzrael]

It takes a lot longer than you'd think to be able to target these adds (it's not just you, they simply can't be targeted), and it's not much time at all between when they are able to be targeted and when they start attacking. I'm not entirely sure the best way to handle it, but I know I usually end up tanking the last half of the first droid we kill (on my gunslinger) with a defensive cooldown, so if it dies quickly enough maybe that's a viable way for your group to do it. It would be easier to do this with 2 dps, as the first droid will die faster. I lead with a flyby as often as possible, so healers typically aren't the ones to pull initial aggro, I am. Any sort of AOE from your dps would probably keep your healers from getting hit..

 

I usually do it like this - I keep spamming my Slow time button until they get auto-targeted, if i getthem then I go into my AOE rotationbut after first round and interrupt I use AOE taunt to boost aggro. When I concentrate on AOE rotation (plus a TkT to get some self-healing if healer is struggling) and maybe halfway through I switch target to second one I am not targetting and I single taunt. I then go back to normal rotation until one of them dies. I will still occasionally loose one of them if there is a gunslinger there. Also in the beginning healer or rDPS tends to eat one attack from thena s I cannot target them and then I have to waste my AOE taunt. In any case this fight does not let you feel like a good tank.

Also I struggle a bit with containers on this fight. The debuff seems to run out quicker then when I am tanking the boss and I sometimes end up not having it through 1/3 of second fight. I don't entirely understand why. Timers should be the same and I actually destroy the container just before first set of adds not when MT destroys his.

Anyway I have yet to clear this fight as I have tanked boss and adds to 50-40-30% on the boss but never to the final phase It seems it needs more 72 geared DD's or some insane tricks (a guild I know has sentinels use 'Guarded by the force' and stay in the laser beam through the lasr phase).

[namesaretough]

(a guild I know has sentinels use 'Guarded by the force' and stay in the laser beam through the lasr phase).

That's kind of funny, the boss is immune while he's shooting the laser (at least in 16m, I guess 8m could be different)