Scoundrel/Operative Roll

[Laurreth]

OK, here's my take. Look at Huttball. The Rollers can get the ball while the rest of the team, or more importantly, everyone in the other team is just dropping down the first walkway. IMO that shows a certain clash between at least that warzone's design and the new feature, since it is a massive change in balance and reliance on group composition.

 

The rollers are also the only class that can bypass the fire traps with little or no damage, thereby negating that element's design purpose, namely, timing traversal of the walkways. Also, not a good thing design-wise.

 

IMO the ability should be slowed down, be it through careful application of a cooldown or some other means (application of a stacking slowdown?), to a point where it gives a momentary advantage that doesn't exceed a certain maximum. Roughly speaking in Huttball terms, even the most berserk roller shouldn't reach the dratted ball before other characters from a group with a single sentinel/mara group buff or a sorc/sage Flee can at least get into range of the CC skills.

 

(Huttball: litmus test for skill changes.)

[Vikassi]

This is most likely a L2P issue for the original poster. Eventually, you'll be able to overcome the power of the darkside.

[Kovaos]

The only way to stop it is to have another operative/scoundrel roll right in to them causing a collision and popping the huttball free for grabs.

[Alkazarr]

Geez. We've been nerfed since 1.2. Give us a break.

 

Pretty much this. And I do love my roll.

I feel like a frigging hero when I burst a guy down, then roll to LOS the other guy thenn come bk and burst the otther guy down. Saves me using my vanish which I'm happy to keep as a defensive CD.

 

Besides I think the new skill classes learn at lvl51 are pretty balanced and quite a few counter each other.

Electro net kills the roll, etc...

[Seireeni]

Not this again...

 

The first person to tell me that a 30m leap that also interrupts is a same thing as 6/12m roll with high energy cost gets a free /facepalm. Yeah, wouldn't even be the first time.

[Mackeyla]

The rollers are also the only class that can bypass the fire traps with little or no damage, thereby negating that element's design purpose, namely, timing traversal of the walkways. Also, not a good thing design-wise.

 

Incorrect. As I previously stated most if not all classes get some sort of way around/through traps. For example, as I also previously stated- Sorcs can spec into the immune to movement effects for their speed boost and even if they don't go up that tree they can bubble and run super fast. Juggs can leap, Assasins have a nice speed boost, etc.

 

Aren't the forums here for me to voice my opinion? Oh wait... yes they are.

 

You are entitled to voice your opinion as am I. It is my OPINION that you should spend some time learning to play instead of crying on the forums because Scoundrels/Sniper finally got a "movement" talent.

 

Have a fantastic day!

Edited May 29, 2013 by Mackeyla

[FROIDBUSTER]

You can get 5 rolls as an operative with a full energy bar.

 

If you aren't snared you roll 12 meters/roll.

 

If you are snared you roll 6 meters/roll.

 

That really doesn't seem overpowered to me compared to some of the other movement skills other classes get...like Sorcs who can spec into being immune to CC effects while using their force speed.

 

Maybe you should try to learn how to more effectively and intelligently cc people to get around their abilities instead of crying about things on the forum.

 

 

Its' worth mentioning three things in particular, one is how the ingame physics deal with rolling over ledges or through obstacles. Depending on what you roll off the cumulative distance is actually much longer (specifically huttball ledges).

 

The stealth and CC mechanics built into the Operative/Scoundrel class greatly benefit their mobility. Many other classes have mobility, many CC breaks, or CCs, but few have all three in the variety and numbers that Operative/Scoundrels have.

 

And lastly while this is more situational, and tied to client-server sync anomalies. The roll is very glitchy. Now for Inquisitors/Consulars this same anomaly has always been very annoying, ask any Sorc/Sage about it and they'll have numerous examples of how rubberbanding (being snapped back to their original location) wasted or diminished the effect of their Force Speed.

 

This holds true for Operative/Scoundrel as well, with one major difference, they can roll multiple times. While a rubberbanding Sorc/Sage who force sped the exact moment they were lep-to/pulled may be annoying for a bit, they can't do it again. However, the disorienting nature of trying to gap close to or pull a rolling Operative/Scoundrel greatly works in their favor since they can continue to roll.

 

Also the most prominent and disruptive movement impairing effects tied to ranged damaging abilities, are the ones Operatives can cleanse.

Edited May 30, 2013 by FROIDBUSTER

[XxPizzaBoyxX]

SO wow i thought the whole nerf operatives thing was a a forum joke but here it is. nerf operatives that healing class is waaaaayyyy to good at healing especially when everyone would rather run after a sorc get some good dps numbers on the board instead of the clearly marked operative healer. but no seriously l2p

[FROIDBUSTER]

SO wow i thought the whole nerf operatives thing was a a forum joke but here it is. nerf operatives that healing class is waaaaayyyy to good at healing especially when everyone would rather run after a sorc get some good dps numbers on the board instead of the clearly marked operative healer. but no seriously l2p

 

Its' less about healing and more about how their mobility affects every map.

 

All of the Healers (with Sorc/Sage leading the charge) are incredibly good in pvp at the moment. The difference is even cross-healing can be dealt with and worked around over the natural course of gameplay.

 

Depending on the circumstances of Huttball, Voidstar, Hypergate, etc.. situations arise where Operative/Scoundrels can use their immense mobility for huge gains, with almost no counterplay available to enemies, unless they also have an Operative/Scoundrel.

 

It's very similar to the old bubblestun Sorc/Sage spec. There were ways to somewhat mitigate its' effectiveness, but at the end of the day, the only way you were really going to counteract it was just use a bubblestunner of your own. Which wasn't that fun. (Although Bioware also kept it aorund for 6+ months despite the discussions and complaints around it, so you really shouldn't get your panties in a wad just because people are talking about Operative roll being strong).

Edited May 30, 2013 by FROIDBUSTER

[FROIDBUSTER]

Incorrect. As I previously stated most if not all classes get some sort of way around/through traps. For example, as I also previously stated- Sorcs can spec into the immune to movement effects for their speed boost and even if they don't go up that tree they can bubble and run super fast. Juggs can leap, Assasins have a nice speed boost, etc.

 

!

 

The difference being after you disrupt a Sorc force speed, or a Jugg intercede... they can't do it again. They are incredibly potent for traversing the pvp maps, and can be sued to great effect, but they're counterable because of their longish cooldowns.

 

The fact you're willing to even admit Force Speed or Intercede into the conversation as a comparison to a move like Exfiltrate is promising though, since you're at the very least recognizing it to be on the same level as skills with 20~ second cooldowns as far as mobility goes. Maybe eventually that awareness will put you in the camp with the rest of us who think Exfiltrate needs a cooldown instead of a cost.

Edited May 30, 2013 by FROIDBUSTER

[Mel_the_Jedi]

The rollers are also the only class that can bypass the fire traps with little or no damage, thereby negating that element's design purpose, namely, timing traversal of the walkways. Also, not a good thing design-wise.

 

Not true, Sorcs and Sins both have been force speed jumping past the fires since release and both can force speed straight thru the fire with a sorc bubble on. Hell, a PT with his shield and a wz adrenal can HO run through and pop a medpack on the other side to get back to full health. Mercs can probably do this now with those same abilites. I bet Snipers can get through with no problems, too. Middle tree snipers can do it twice in a row. The only class that might have problems strolling throught the fire are Juggs, but hey they never worry about the traps anyway with two leaps.

[Mel_the_Jedi]

Its' worth mentioning three things in particular, one is how the ingame physics deal with rolling over ledges or through obstacles. Depending on what you roll off the cumulative distance is actually much longer (specifically huttball ledges).

 

Snipers can do this, as well, and their's travels a larger distance. Middle tree gets two in row. Sorcs and Sins have always been able to time a force speed jump to take advantage of game physics to leap farther off ledges, too.

[falgarr]

I saw an op launch across the rocks on Novare Coast like superman and disappear.]

 

Still not as ridiculous as Juggs/Guardians. But Bioware won't dare to nerf them because they wield lightsabers.

Edited May 30, 2013 by falgarr

[Philelectric]

My idea for roll

 

Cost no energy (or a very low amount ) and dont have a CD (or a very low CD) when in stealth to help them catch a target.

 

Cost 10-15 energy when NOT in stealth and can be used 2-3 times before a 6-10 sec CD is applied.

[Syberduh]

Warrior leap:

 

15-seconds-or-less cooldown

30 meters

can jump up to higher platforms

automatically interupts

automatically roots

generates energy

 

You want to give exfiltrate some of those features, we can start talking about cooldowns. The more features, the longer the cooldown.

[Astarica]

The game considers roll as a teleport which means you never take any damage for rolling across hostile terrain because you're never in that hostile terrain. Even Force Speed generally takes a tick of damage, and if not it's merely luck since the server only checks for damage every second so if you ran past at the exact time before the server checks for damage again you wouldn't take damage.

 

This means it's never possible to stun someone in mid roll like you can with Force Speed, because the Operative was never at any point between his initial position and his final position. Rather, you can stun him, but the Operative will always magically appear at his destination stunned, as opposed to a point in between the initial position and the final position. Due to this, it has a tendency to beat grapple because if you grapple someone in mid roll, they immediately reappear at their destination as soon as the roll is done, negating the grapple completely. This issue seems to come from the fact of design issues that makes roll more powerful than intended. That is, one would expect grapple to always work on roll (you should grab someone and in the worst case they roll 12m ahead of where you grabbed them), but this isn't true.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Astarica

[RodneyMcNeely]

1 person shouldn't be able to slow an operative 100% of the time.

 

Multiple people can tho.

Bet you're the guy that also says one person should never be able to kill a healer on his own.

 

[Campaigner]

The game considers roll as a teleport which means you never take any damage for rolling across hostile terrain because you're never in that hostile terrain. Even Force Speed generally takes a tick of damage, and if not it's merely luck since the server only checks for damage every second so if you ran past at the exact time before the server checks for damage again you wouldn't take damage.

 

This means it's never possible to stun someone in mid roll like you can with Force Speed, because the Operative was never at any point between his initial position and his final position. Rather, you can stun him, but the Operative will always magically appear at his destination stunned, as opposed to a point in between the initial position and the final position. Due to this, it has a tendency to beat grapple because if you grapple someone in mid roll, they immediately reappear at their destination as soon as the roll is done, negating the grapple completely. This issue seems to come from the fact of design issues that makes roll more powerful than intended. That is, one would expect grapple to always work on roll (you should grab someone and in the worst case they roll 12m ahead of where you grabbed them), but this isn't true.

 

When I'm stunned or rooted in the middle of a roll I always get sent backwards to my original position. Roll is easy to counter.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Campaigner

[Sziroten]

..............

 

Advice coming from a guy playing an operative and doesn't know basic functions of his class

 

Pretty much this. And I do love my roll.

I feel like a frigging hero when I burst a guy down, then roll to LOS the other guy thenn come bk and burst the otther guy down. Saves me using my vanish which I'm happy to keep as a defensive CD.

 

oh yes... and that's totally how it should be, own 2-3 guys without problems because your lvl 51 skill and it's totally the same for all classes right?..

 

Incorrect. As I previously stated most if not all classes get some sort of way around/through traps. For example, as I also previously stated- Sorcs can spec into the immune to movement effects for their speed boost and even if they don't go up that tree they can bubble and run super fast. Juggs can leap, Assasins have a nice speed boost, etc.

 

Operatives have stealth, heal, gap closer/ increaser, "leap" (due to cover options are not restricted to the same level in huttball for example)... I totally don't see how any other class and healer for that matter could say anything like this. Force Speed does have a cooldown, Force Leap does have a cooldown..... the roll needs one as well.

 

Warrior leap:

 

15-seconds-or-less cooldown

30 meters

can jump up to higher platforms

automatically interupts

automatically roots

generates energy

 

You want to give exfiltrate some of those features, we can start talking about cooldowns. The more features, the longer the cooldown.

 

You can "jump" to higher platforms already, using the cover mechanics and you being able to heal yourself + stealth is an advantage you don't seem to grasp.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Sziroten

[Campaigner]

Do what you want, i really don't care what happens to it. I will adjust, like all good players do. I wont come here and cry about something being broken, that clearly isnt broken when countered by GOOD players.

 

Well I wouldn't expect an op healer to care about a gap closer designed for us DPS ops...

[JackNader]

Operative roll needs a definite adjustment. Back when this was being tested on the PTS, myself and others detailed ways it could be abused. Sure enough, the devs didn't listen and now we have several broken warzones because of it.

 

I'll admit that I do like the roll. When I am healing and my target leaps out of my heal range I can instantly roll in and continue to heal. It's also great for getting away from people. Where it's broken is in places like voidstar and huttball. The advantage that it gives in those instances is just obscene.

 

To be frank, i'd rather it have a cooldown of 10 - 15 seconds and no energy cost. For concealment, i would have preferred sneak give its 50% speed boost out of combat so that you can close on a target moving away from you while in stealth.

[Sziroten]

Well I wouldn't expect an op healer to care about a gap closer designed for us DPS ops...

 

In case you would give it a cooldown (like other gap closers have....) how would your DPS ops be screwed when you didn't have a gap closer prior to this? They should allow you to skill for a "better" gap closer (2 rolls instead of 1) in your DPS tree but not as a general rule for any kind of operative.

[ronniehenlau]

You can "jump" to higher platforms already, using the cover mechanics and you being able to heal yourself + stealth is an advantage you don't seem to grasp.

 

That's kind of like saying 'You beeing able to use loldefensive cooldowns is an advantage you dont grasp' to a marauder.

 

We know about it, however:

As a healer, that's kind of the point; you heal people and yourself.

As a dps, your heals are lol. They heal for meh, and have a long cast time. It -can- be a lifesaver if you are vs someone at low health, but most likely you are dead by the time those 2.5 (2 if specced) seconds cast time have passed. If not, the dps on you is bad, and he should feel bad.

 

Stealth is nice, yes, but again, not a lifesaver. Well, vanish is. Once every 2 minutes (every 1.5 minutes as conc). Other than that, stealth as a healer is meh, and stealth is required offensively as concealment.

 

The socalled 'Leap' you speak about, I've never seen it, so wont comment on it. If I can roll into cover up on a ledge, that's clearly a bug. Balacing an ability arond a bug is just silly. That would be like balancing sorcs around lightning effusion bug. 'Well, they can in theory if they exploit this bug get a 75% reduction on the cost of all force skills. Lets increase force cost on everything with 75%.' See the issue balancing around that? People not exploiting the bug will get hit superhard.

 

Would you be fine with the ability beeing changed to this:

"Scamper will now move a character to any selected location within 30m of current location. Using exfiltrate now recovers 25 energy, and interrupts and roots the target closest to where you land, within 4m. This ability now has a 15 second cooldown (can be specced to 12 seconds in concealment)."

 

Sounds fair, yes?

[Sziroten]

That's kind of like saying 'You beeing able to use loldefensive cooldowns is an advantage you dont grasp' to a marauder.

 

We know about it, however:

As a healer, that's kind of the point; you heal people and yourself.

As a dps, your heals are lol. They heal for meh, and have a long cast time. It -can- be a lifesaver if you are vs someone at low health, but most likely you are dead by the time those 2.5 (2 if specced) seconds cast time have passed. If not, the dps on you is bad, and he should feel bad.

 

Stealth is nice, yes, but again, not a lifesaver. Well, vanish is. Once every 2 minutes (every 1.5 minutes as conc). Other than that, stealth as a healer is meh, and stealth is required offensively as concealment.

 

The socalled 'Leap' you speak about, I've never seen it, so wont comment on it. If I can roll into cover up on a ledge, that's clearly a bug. Balacing an ability arond a bug is just silly. That would be like balancing sorcs around lightning effusion bug. 'Well, they can in theory if they exploit this bug get a 75% reduction on the cost of all force skills. Lets increase force cost on everything with 75%.' See the issue balancing around that? People not exploiting the bug will get hit superhard.

 

Would you be fine with the ability beeing changed to this:

"Scamper will now move a character to any selected location within 30m of current location. Using exfiltrate now recovers 25 energy, and interrupts and roots the target closest to where you land, within 4m. This ability now has a 15 second cooldown (can be specced to 12 seconds in concealment)."

 

Sounds fair, yes?

 

any heal > no heal

 

stealth > no stealth (this includes vanish)

 

gap closer without a cooldown > gap closer on a cooldown

 

So since marauder are not heal classes, you can spec for stun/ root immunity along with being able to make an equivalent number of rolls as sorcs force speed can run before it's put on a cooldown.

 

Pointing out a bug which is still used by some cover classes players currently doesn't make it any less of an advantage on life servers. (needs to be fixed)

Edited May 30, 2013 by Sziroten

[Syberduh]

Against competent teams, Jugg tanks are still much better ball carriers than ops. Ops have a horrible time getting away from warrior roots and can't take focus fire.