ETA on Advanced Class change?

[MajikMyst]

It is not a free anything. You are not gaining an additional character, you are gaining the ability to play the character in a slightly different way.

 

Wrong.. You are getting a totally different character with an entirely different set of abilities.. It is a free character because you did not earn it.. You leveled a sage.. If you want a shadow then you must roll one and level it..

 

There are 16 classes in this game.. Not 8..

 

Whether someone else switches their AC has zero impact on me, and I imagine zero impact on the game (with the proviso of the limitations I outlined) beyond allowing a certain portion of the player base a chance to refresh their interest in a character or switch over to a preferred playstyle.

 

Someone having a god mode switch in an Op wouldn't effect you either.. That is false logic you are using.. There are always effects.. Just because you refuse to see them or consider them doesn't mean they aren't there..

 

They can refresh their play style by rolling another character.. Instead of asking Bioware to cut the number classes in half to appease laziness in their players.. Changing your class in this game is a bad idea.. It doesn't benefit bioware to allow people to be lazy.. You want to try out another class... Fine.. Roll that class..

 

Some times you just got to live with your own choices.. Nobody is so entitled to have everything given to them on a silver platter.. Nobody is so entitled that Bioware needs dramatically change to game so someone can look at the other class.. Leveling in this game is easy.. If someone it to lazy to level another character to see the other class, then I guess they didn't want to see it that bad..

 

I have both a shadow and sage.. Leveled them both up.. It fun.. But then I like playing the game.. I wish others did too.. Instead of looking for short cuts or anything that helps them not play the game..

Edited July 3, 2013 by MajikMyst

[Vhaegrant]

Apples and oranges, race is purely cosmetic choice that changes nothing, except maybe how some people react to you.

 

I think LordArtemis' point was that a precedent has already been set that change of initial plans can change, not the specific game mechanics between species and class. But I'm sure they can point this out in a clearer manner than me

 

Changing class is changing most of your abilities, how you play (in major way, yes, there is a difference between healing and DPSing, but the basic playstyle, like range, used items (generator, focus, second weapon, etc), etc remain same), etc.

 

You use the example of Healing to DPS which is fine. Different kettle of fish if you consider Tank to DPS as that requires a full switch out of used items.

And the way you use your character can varymore in playing PvE or PvP. PvE stand still most of the time concentrate on perfect rotation, move out of AOE. PvP move around like a lunatic and respond as quickly as possible to the opposition. No disrespect to either side here as I dabble in both. Just pointing out that any considerations in changing playstyle of one AC to the other solely in PvE mode is less dramatic than the switch from playing the same AC in PvE or PvP.

 

 

Advanced class should be, for all intents and purposes, your class, and it should not be possible to change. Race is not used anywhere in game statistics, and gives no bonuses, therefore, changing it changes nothing.

 

I still fail to understand why class is placed on such a high pedestal? Just because other games do it this way? Because that's the way it's always been done?

Given the nature and investment of resources required to put in another class story I can't honestly see any on the immediate horizon. However it would be a more reasonable idea to consider the possibility of future Advanced Classes that slot into the existing Class structure.

For example ACs that use the animations from the other faction, ACs that are focused on a different weapon type, ACs that start to use a more hybrid variety of abilities (shock horror I know some folk would keel over at the thought of A bounty hunter having any force abilities available to them).

While some players would want to level a new character to explore these hypothetical new ACs many more would prefer to try them out or maybe just swap over.

Justification of this based on game mechanics is fine, and I can understand this viewpoint. I just don't have to agree with it. I think this option would bring more flexibility and choice into the hands of the average gamer and open up the possibilities of future expansion of ACs within the original class story.

 

Now, I know you are claiming to be against changing, but you still insist on keeping this thread alive...

 

And there was me thinking the best way of letting a thread die is to not respond and provoke more argument

[MajikMyst]

I think LordArtemis' point was that a precedent has already been set that change of initial plans can change, not the specific game mechanics between species and class. But I'm sure they can point this out in a clearer manner than me

 

They haven't set any precedent.. We knew in the beta that a barber shop element would be added.. The only change that has been made to the game that was not planned was Free to play.. Other than that nothing..

 

There is nothing to be pointed out.. Some people just don't have all the information.. Just like in the beta we talked about AC swapping as well.. A lot of changes were made to the game to prevent that from happening.. Not to mention a bunch of in game warnings that their choice was permanent.. Which of course now gets ignored by selective hearing..

[MajikMyst]

I still fail to understand why class is placed on such a high pedestal?

 

A class is what makes all our characters somewhat different.. If there were no classes, then all our characters would be the same.. Our class defines our character.. To allow that to change diminishes the need for a class and what it's purpose is.. What is the point of a class if we all can just change it.. It will become as meaningless as our spec..

 

I don't know if you played WOW at all.. But WOW messed around with dual spec'ing.. They did the full job.. One button changed your gear, and your talent tree specs.. Pressing it again, changed you back.. There were even people that wanted triple spec'ing for the classes that could heal, tank, and DPS..

 

With the release of Mists of Panderia, WOW no longer has skill trees.. They still have a basic spec that you can change.. But nothing compared to the skill trees they used to have..

 

Class swapping needs to just be left alone.. Or would you prefer not having a class at all??

[Vhaegrant]

Wrong.. You are getting a totally different character with an entirely different set of abilities.. It is a free character because you did not earn it.. You leveled a sage.. If you want a shadow then you must roll one and level it..

 

There are 16 classes in this game.. Not 8..

 

There are 8 unique classes in this game not 16 (the opposite faction are just mirror classes with different animations). I identify more with the class story than the Advanced class. I see the Advanced Class as little more than a choice in what equipment/skills to utilise to get the job done. Again no real difference than the three skill trees. However I realise that you probably don't want to have core tanking abilities available for use at the same time as you have core healing abilities and thus the need to separate the Healer/ Tank roles into separate ACs

 

Someone having a god mode switch in an Op wouldn't effect you either.. That is false logic you are using.. There are always effects.. Just because you refuse to see them or consider them doesn't mean they aren't there..

 

I don't think it is. Having God mode allows someone to gather resources or gear that puts them at a direct advantage to other players. Changing from Powertech to Mercenary has no impact on my ability to gather resources or gear over any other Mercenary in the game.

 

They can refresh their play style by rolling another character.. Instead of asking Bioware to cut the number classes in half to appease laziness in their players.. Changing your class in this game is a bad idea.. It doesn't benefit bioware to allow people to be lazy.. You want to try out another class... Fine.. Roll that class..

 

I dislike your use of Lazy. It is not lazy to level a character to 55 and then want to see how the other AC plays before you decide to sink more time into actually levelling a character in that AC. It is not lazy to level the 8 unique class stories to max and not want to have to level a duplicate. It is not lazy to want to stick with a single character put have that classes skills and abilities at your fingertips (again with suitable restrictions).

Edited July 3, 2013 by Vhaegrant

[MajikMyst]

There are 8 unique classes in this game not 16 .

 

I will take bioware's word over you any day.. There is 16.. The game doesn't bend to your words.. This Bioware's game and they make the rules..

 

I dislike your use of Lazy. It is not lazy to level a character to 55 and then want to see how the other AC plays before you decide to sink more time into actually levelling a character in that AC. It is not lazy to level the 8 unique class stories to max and not want to have to level a duplicate. It is not lazy to want to stick with a single character put have that classes skills and abilities at your fingertips (again with suitable restrictions).

 

So you don't like the use.. It is true and you know it.. It is easy to level to 55.. It is insanely easy to level in this game.. You should try leveling in WOW.. Typically speaking, under an average amount of play time.. We will say 24 hours a week.. It could take you about 2 months to get to level 70, which was level cap for BC.. Current level cap is 90 I think.. The higher levels are a drag.. 70-80 could take you a month.. 80-85 was another month.. I am figuring low here as well.. 50-55 is really just a matter of hours to just over a week, again depends on play time.. I did it in 3 days on my shadow.. Most of that time was spent looking for a group for the last macrobinocular and seeker droid quests..

 

Stories does not dictate class.. This game is voiced.. There was no way they could do 16 stories.. So seriously.. Get off it already.. If you are to lazy to go through it again to get the other class then you are to lazy.. Simple as that..

 

It is lazy.. There is nothing else to call it.. You don't dictate terms here.. If you want another class then you are going to have to roll it.. If you asked Bioware how many classes were in the game, they would say 16.. Everyone should know that..

Edited July 3, 2013 by MajikMyst

[Vhaegrant]

A class is what makes all our characters somewhat different.. If there were no classes, then all our characters would be the same.. Our class defines our character.. To allow that to change diminishes the need for a class and what it's purpose is.. What is the point of a class if we all can just change it.. It will become as meaningless as our spec..

 

First of all I would say that with such a small palette of classes to draw from you are always going to be in a pretty large pool of players of the same class, in other words you really aren't that unique or special within the scope of the game. Certainly not unique enough to get frustrated by those players with the temerity to suggest they get to change to the same class. This plays into some of the comments I made way back in my first post about how players tie in-game achievements into a sense of real life validation.

I would say in SWTOR you are defined by the class story you chose to play first and foremost. I am not suggesting at anypoint a player should be allowed to switch from Bounty Hunter to Sith Warrior.

Then it comes down to character concept and how you visualise the character, this drives much of the desire to get unique or cool looking stuff and a big drive behind the sort of vanity items you will find on the Cartel Market.

Then you have the role you play within a group. DPS, Healer or Tank. Advanced Class choice causes an unnecessary separation at this point. I know plenty of players that like to fulfil Tank or Healer but no desire to DPS. And many more that dip into DPS when soloing content rather than doing dailies as a tank or healer.

 

I don't know if you played WOW at all.. But WOW messed around with dual spec'ing.. They did the full job.. One button changed your gear, and your talent tree specs.. Pressing it again, changed you back.. There were even people that wanted triple spec'ing for the classes that could heal, tank, and DPS..

 

I played WoW for about 4 months a year into its launch and then went back for another year with the release of 'The Burning Crusade' expansion. I'm not sure what dual spec has to do with a discussion about AC switching? I am not asking for a single button option but the chance to add the flexibility that classes suchas the Druid and Paladin already had. At the time I plaed both of these classes had a spec that allowed them to DPS, Heal or Tank without a significant need to change out gear.

 

With the release of Mists of Panderia, WOW no longer has skill trees.. They still have a basic spec that you can change.. But nothing compared to the skill trees they used to have..

 

No idea how WoW do things now I left a little over 5 years ago and have never had any desire to go back. But an argument just based on how a different game does things isn't really the strongest.

 

Class swapping needs to just be left alone.. Or would you prefer not having a class at all??

 

Interesting point. I grew up playing tabletop roleplaying games and you have two basic distinctions. You have the class centric rulesets such as the eponymous 'Dungeons and Dragons' and the points based systems such as 'Steve Jackson's Gurps'. Personally I much prefer the point based construction system of a GURPS like game where you get to pick what skills and abilities the character has over a period of time rather than a fixed set of abilities.

However I understand the danger of a free system in Flavour of the Month builds and also the complexity of choices deters the more casual player.

Essentially class based systems are a points based system where the game designers have presented the best builds of abilities. This reduces player confusion and allows developers to balance the ability synergy easier.

 

For me the bottom line is my character is defined by me and the choices I have made with regards to class story choice, appearance and the role I can play while grouped. The two Advanced Classes and five unique skill trees per class are tools that allow me flexibility to carry out those roles as I like, I have never felt they define my character.

[Ratajack]

Species and appearance was permanent and I knew it was permanent. It is no longer permanent.

 

Bioware decided to make species and appearance permanent because, according to their words (as has been posted more than once in this thread) ".....we felt that you should feel invested in your character, your choice should have meaning".

 

It is no longer permanent.

 

The argument that the prior dev staff made it a permanent choice is a moot point. If anything can be gleaned by the recent changes to the game, it is likely everything is on the table.

 

Not to mention a dev specifically stated this was likely..."We have had serious talks recently about offering an Advanced Class change option – I think that one will likely happen eventually.", also posted many times in the thread.

 

The writing is on the wall. Like it or not it may be coming soon.

 

You keep posting that they are now allowing species changes and appearance changes. Yet, every time you do, you fail to make the distinction between a cosmetic change and a change in fundamental game play mechanics of classes. The two cannot be considered the same.

 

Add to that the fact that we have heard absolutely nothing since that ambiguous statement, not one peep or hint of a whisper about class changing. I'm not so sure that we're going to see class changes anytime soon.

[Holinyx]

why is this thread 199 pages? make another character ! geez.

[Ratajack]

There are 8 unique classes in this game not 16 (the opposite faction are just mirror classes with different animations). I identify more with the class story than the Advanced class. I see the Advanced Class as little more than a choice in what equipment/skills to utilise to get the job done. Again no real difference than the three skill trees. However I realise that you probably don't want to have core tanking abilities available for use at the same time as you have core healing abilities and thus the need to separate the Healer/ Tank roles into separate ACs

 

The devs apparently feel differently, as they are on record as having said that they see the AC's as fundamentally different CLASS designs.

 

 

 

I don't think it is. Having God mode allows someone to gather resources or gear that puts them at a direct advantage to other players. Changing from Powertech to Mercenary has no impact on my ability to gather resources or gear over any other Mercenary in the game.

 

If I play solo, then my having a god mode should not affect you at all. So what If I have better gear than you. Raiders have better gear than non-raiders. Raiders have access resources that non-raiders do not. Is it ok that raiders have better gear than non-raiders and access to resources that non-raiders do not?

 

 

I dislike your use of Lazy. It is not lazy to level a character to 55 and then want to see how the other AC plays before you decide to sink more time into actually levelling a character in that AC. It is not lazy to level the 8 unique class stories to max and not want to have to level a duplicate. It is not lazy to want to stick with a single character put have that classes skills and abilities at your fingertips (again with suitable restrictions).

 

Lacy is being averse to work or effort. Effort put forth in the past toward one goal does not absolve someone of the possibility of putting forth effort toward another goal in the here and now, or in the future. The fact that I was not too lazy to do something yesterday does not mean I cannot be too lazy to do something very similar today.

[Vhaegrant]

I will take bioware's word over you any day.. There is 16.. The game doesn't bend to your words.. This Bioware's game and they make the rules..

 

Please if you are going to quote me at least have the respect to quote in full.

 

There are 8 unique classes in this game not 16 (the opposite faction are just mirror classes with different animations).

 

You keep using WoW as your sounding board, they have 11 classes last time I looked that the various factions draw from. A warrior is a warrior whether you play Horde or Alliance. I was just pointing out that by this definition of class SWTOR only has 8 as the other factions classes are mirrors without their own mechanics. A Bounty Hunter Powertech plays no differently mechanically than a Trooper Vanguard.

 

 

So you don't like the use.. It is true and you know it.. It is easy to level to 55.. It is insanely easy to level in this game.. You should try leveling in WOW.. Typically speaking, under an average amount of play time.. We will say 24 hours a week.. It could take you about 2 months to get to level 70, which was level cap for BC.. Current level cap is 90 I think.. The higher levels are a drag.. 70-80 could take you a month.. 80-85 was another month.. I am figuring low here as well.. 50-55 is really just a matter of hours to just over a week, again depends on play time.. I did it in 3 days on my shadow.. Most of that time was spent looking for a group for the last macrobinocular and seeker droid quests..

 

Congratulations you win the who has more time to play a game competition. I really hate the fact that early MMOs hid lack of playable content behind a level grind that requires very little skill but lots of time. Yes I know the business argument states that you should make people play longer as that means they will subscribe for longer but we all saw how well that worked out.

 

Stories does not dictate class.. This game is voiced.. There was no way they could do 16 stories.. So seriously.. Get off it already.. If you are to lazy to go through it again to get the other class then you are to lazy.. Simple as that..

 

This is a difference of opinion I do not feel we will step down from. You are tied into your character as a collection of abilities governed by game mechanics. I on the other hand associate my character first and foremost as a Bounty Hunter, the story comes first in defining what that means.

 

I'm lucky I have plenty of time to sink into SWTOR. I have made no secret about the fact that my defence of this option is more because I feel it would afford more opportunity and flexibility to the average gamer than I myself might derive. I have completed all eight core class storylines, levelled a powertech, sniper, marauder, sorcerer, commando, scoundrel, guardian and shadow to 55 and unlocked all 40 companions to max affection. I feel it would still be a useful option to allow gamers additional flexibility.

 

It is lazy.. There is nothing else to call it.. You don't dictate terms here.. If you want another class then you are going to have to roll it.. If you asked Bioware how many classes were in the game, they would say 16.. Everyone should know that..

 

I'm not asking for another class. I'm asking for the flexibility to play the class I have chosen in all of its roles. Still not a short cut if you want to do this across all eight unique class storylines.

[LordArtemis]

Uncalled for diatribe

 

Shenanigans.

Edited July 3, 2013 by LordArtemis

[LordArtemis]

Apples and oranges, race is purely cosmetic choice that changes nothing, except maybe how some people react to you. Changing class is changing most of your abilities, how you play (in major way, yes, there is a difference between healing and DPSing, but the basic playstyle, like range, used items (generator, focus, second weapon, etc), etc remain same), etc.

Advanced class should be, for all intents and purposes, your class, and it should not be possible to change. Race is not used anywhere in game statistics, and gives no bonuses, therefore, changing it changes nothing.

 

Now, I know you are claiming to be against changing, but you still insist on keeping this thread alive...

 

Lol claiming. I'm surprised you would sink to that low Aries, shame on you.

 

I post the truth. Seems folks on my side of the fence have a problem with that. The truth should be no threat to us if we are on the right side.

 

As to the post...response to the claim that permanent means permanent. It does not.

[Vhaegrant]

The devs apparently feel differently, as they are on record as having said that they see the AC's as fundamentally different CLASS designs. .

 

I think I know the quote you are referring to. Made about three months after the games release by a developer that no longer works with the company.

A more recent quote by a developer that still works on the game said that Advanced Class switching was a future possibility although not imminent.

 

If I play solo, then my having a god mode should not affect you at all. So what If I have better gear than you. Raiders have better gear than non-raiders. Raiders have access resources that non-raiders do not. Is it ok that raiders have better gear than non-raiders and access to resources that non-raiders do not?

 

To be honest I don't care what gear you have that makes no difference to me at all. But the fact you can vendor the gear having put in no effort makes the distinction, effectively you get credits for free. Raider have better gear and resources because they coordinate and raid not because they have a hypothetical God mode.

 

 

Lacy is being averse to work or effort. Effort put forth in the past toward one goal does not absolve someone of the possibility of putting forth effort toward another goal in the here and now, or in the future. The fact that I was not too lazy to do something yesterday does not mean I cannot be too lazy to do something very similar today.

 

Wanting to play one character and experience all the potential roles of that character is not lazy. I am not advocating a player gets anything for free or that it would be a simple flip switch. You would still need to unlock the option and pay everytime you switched (enough to make it feasible, not enough to make it an unrealistic proposition).

In many ways only having one character that can flip between ACs is less beneficial as you only have the inventory space of one character and you can only do dailies and other lock outs once in any time period.

However not everyone has vast amounts of time to sink into an MMO to just level characters, no matter how easier that task is in this game to others.

 

This feels very similar in effect to the arguments made against the ewok being purchasable through cartel coins. Somehow you find it offensive that someone could possibly pay for something you have spent time acquiring.

[LordArtemis]

You keep posting that they are now allowing species changes and appearance changes. Yet, every time you do, you fail to make the distinction between a cosmetic change and a change in fundamental game play mechanics of classes. The two cannot be considered the same.

 

Add to that the fact that we have heard absolutely nothing since that ambiguous statement, not one peep or hint of a whisper about class changing. I'm not so sure that we're going to see class changes anytime soon.

 

I don't need to make that distinction when it is a response to the silly notion that permanent means permanent. It does not...period.

 

It does not matter that they are not considered the same. Bioware has made no such distinction and BIOWARE is the only opinion that matters here.

[LordArtemis]

They haven't set any precedent.. We knew in the beta that a barber shop element would be added.. The only change that has been made to the game that was not planned was Free to play.. Other than that nothing..

 

There is nothing to be pointed out.. Some people just don't have all the information.. Just like in the beta we talked about AC swapping as well.. A lot of changes were made to the game to prevent that from happening.. Not to mention a bunch of in game warnings that their choice was permanent.. Which of course now gets ignored by selective hearing..

 

Like folks ignore or dismiss actual recent Bioware quotes.

 

The hypocrisy is astounding. I fail to understand the fear here, so much fear that folks will flat out do anything to avoid the truth, even when it is presented over and over again.

 

Again, folks like this DO NOT represent the anti-AC change community. We are far more reasonable than folks like this.

[LordArtemis]

I think I know the quote you are referring to. Made about three months after the games release by a developer that no longer works with the company.

A more recent quote by a developer that still works on the game said that Advanced Class switching was a future possibility although not imminent.

 

To be fair, that quote was quite clear and Bioware has made no public statement that I am aware of that contradicts that statement. They see them as fundamentally different class designs...until someone says something is different, if we are giving credence to all quotes we have to accept that one as valid.

[Aries_cz]

So, saying that you claim to be on the side of "no change" is somehow offensive? If so, I do apologize, but I obviously missed the part of English where claiming was meant as something different than "making a statement" or "taking something as your own". You made the statement that you are on the "no change"side of the fence many times in his thread.

[Vhaegrant]

To be fair, that quote was quite clear and Bioware has made no public statement that I am aware of that contradicts that statement. They see them as fundamentally different class designs...until someone says something is different, if we are giving credence to all quotes we have to accept that one as valid.

 

As I'm sat on a friends laptop waiting for a delivery I have a little spare time to dig a bit deeper

 

First quote by Daniel Erickson dated 10th February 2012 from the official SWTOR Community Q&A

Aurozia: Will there be a dual specialization system in the future? Will there be a possibility of changing advance classes as well?

 

Daniel Erickson: We have no plans for switching advanced classes - which we see as fundamentally different class designs- but dual spec is in the works and coming soon.

Original source here: http://www.swtor.com/blog/community-qa-feb-10th-2012

 

Second quote by Damion Schubert dated 16th November 2012 on Dulfy.net

18. Will be there any faction or Advanced Class change option available for purchase in the future?

 

We have had serious talks recently about offering an Advanced Class change option – I think that one will likely happen eventually. Species is likely as well. Doing a faction switch is considerably more difficult for us, though, due to the various quest flags set throughout the level up process, so this isn’t on the horizon anytime soon.

Original source here: http://dulfy.net/2012/11/16/swtor-f2p-future-content-interview-with-damion-schubert/

 

I would say more recent carries more importance but that's only because it favours my side of the discussion (be it a 'soft no' or not )

[LordArtemis]

As I'm sat on a friends laptop waiting for a delivery I have a little spare time to dig a bit deeper

 

First quote by Daniel Erickson dated 10th February 2012 from the official SWTOR Community Q&A

 

Original source here: http://www.swtor.com/blog/community-qa-feb-10th-2012

 

Second quote by Damion Schubert dated 16th November 2012 on Dulfy.net

 

Original source here: http://dulfy.net/2012/11/16/swtor-f2p-future-content-interview-with-damion-schubert/

 

I would say more recent carries more importance but that's only because it favors my side of the discussion (be it a 'soft no' or not )

 

I don't think it's a soft no. And the second quote does not state ACs are not a class. That is the point that is being made....they have not, to this date, said anything to contradict the idea that they see them as fundamentally different class designs.

 

Saying a change is on the way is not a contradiction of the idea that they see them as they stated IMO. It is saying they are willing to allow change. Class change if you want to say that. Or at least discussing it.

[Vhaegrant]

I don't think it's a soft no. And the second quote does not state ACs are not a class. That is the point that is being made....they have not, to this date, said anything to contradict the idea that they see them as fundamentally different class designs.

 

Saying a change is on the way is not a contradiction of the idea that they see them as they stated IMO. It is saying they are willing to allow change. Class change if you want to say that. Or at least discussing it.

 

I think we're starting to split very fine semantic hairs on this point. The main reason I presented the quotes in full again was to highlight the time at which they were made and the outlook at the chance of an Advanced Class change.

 

Quote 1 made 2 months after SWTORs release, absolutely no chance of Advanced Class switching.

 

Quote 2 made around the time of the F2P transition, Advanced Class switching probable in the future.

 

Yes I fully understand that in SWTOR an Advanced Class is a mechanically defined separate entity (all be it one that shares a core set of abilities). However the Class is also integral with it providing the base appearance choices (scars, tattoos, etc), items, companions, legacy unlocks, achievements.

[LordArtemis]

I think we're starting to split very fine semantic hairs on this point. The main reason I presented the quotes in full again was to highlight the time at which they were made and the outlook at the chance of an Advanced Class change.

 

Quote 1 made 2 months after SWTORs release, absolutely no chance of Advanced Class switching.

 

Quote 2 made around the time of the F2P transition, Advanced Class switching probable in the future.

 

Yes I fully understand that in SWTOR an Advanced Class is a mechanically defined separate entity (all be it one that shares a core set of abilities). However the Class is also integral with it providing the base appearance choices (scars, tattoos, etc), items, companions, legacy unlocks, achievements.

 

Again, my only point was to state how they see the AC based on their comments, not to set a precedent as to whether or not AC change should or will be allowed.

 

The point was, within this discussion I think we should try and remain factual and accurate with respect to Bioware quotes.

 

I too think the winds of change are in the air. The most recent post about AC change stands in evidence, despite claims to it being a "soft no" (a silly wishful contention at best IMO).

 

I am disappointed that AC change may be coming to this title for personal reasons....I like my AC change to have meaning, what little meaning it has now, and this would mean it would be even less meaningful.

 

But that is just my personal preference. I defer to the majority of players and what they desire, and unfortunately it looks like the majority desire AC change. Also unfortunately the nut jobs we have on the anti AC change side have made our standing in the discussion even weaker IMO....making us look like frothing at the mouth maniacs.

 

I'm frankly embarassed that the loudest Anti-AC change folks are also the most dishonest, underhanded and unreasonable folks in this thread....and a bit loopy to boot.

 

This makes me believe it is likely the change is coming. We just don't have the logical guys on our side, and that is a shame IMO.

[Vhaegrant]

The point was, within this discussion I think we should try and remain factual and accurate with respect to Bioware quotes.

 

Agreed.

 

I'm interested in the decision making process behind game mechanics, unfortunately we rarely get to glimpse the process until after the major choices have been made. It is fun to speculate on what could be

 

As I stated earlier I'm more into open format games where you are presented with a toolbox of opportunities to train your character up any way you so desire. I also appreciate the nightmare this would descend into with aggressive focus on the perfect build destroying the fragile synergy built up between abilities. Even in a rigid class based mechanic it is frequent to see exploits develop that make it past the eyes and testing of the actual games designers. I should know I spent many evenings eeking out every point I could in games such as Rolemaster, All Flesh Must be Eaten and GURPS. It was always far easier to make a character in D&D it's pretty much done for you.

 

As I tend to identify far more with the characters story than the mechanics associated with a specific class there are days when I wish I could take my Bounty Hunter out for a spin using a snipers rifle rather than just a blast pistol and a backpack full of rockets. Although that starts to move frighteningly close to asking for the ability to swap class rather than advanced class. And also the cries that if you give them an inch with the ability to switch out Advanced Class they'll try to take a mile with the desire to swap basic class.

 

It would be nice to consider a future where through additional Advanced Class choices or the possibility of high level legacy unlocks some flexibility and additional character customisation could be attained. Again all just speculation and personal preference.

[LordArtemis]

Agreed.

 

I'm interested in the decision making process behind game mechanics, unfortunately we rarely get to glimpse the process until after the major choices have been made. It is fun to speculate on what could be

 

As I stated earlier I'm more into open format games where you are presented with a toolbox of opportunities to train your character up any way you so desire. I also appreciate the nightmare this would descend into with aggressive focus on the perfect build destroying the fragile synergy built up between abilities. Even in a rigid class based mechanic it is frequent to see exploits develop that make it past the eyes and testing of the actual games designers. I should know I spent many evenings eeking out every point I could in games such as Rolemaster, All Flesh Must be Eaten and GURPS. It was always far easier to make a character in D&D it's pretty much done for you.

 

As I tend to identify far more with the characters story than the mechanics associated with a specific class there are days when I wish I could take my Bounty Hunter out for a spin using a snipers rifle rather than just a blast pistol and a backpack full of rockets. Although that starts to move frighteningly close to asking for the ability to swap class rather than advanced class. And also the cries that if you give them an inch with the ability to switch out Advanced Class they'll try to take a mile with the desire to swap basic class.

 

It would be nice to consider a future where through additional Advanced Class choices or the possibility of high level legacy unlocks some flexibility and additional character customisation could be attained. Again all just speculation and personal preference.

 

I really think this was all an unintended side effect of wanting to give us choice and diversity. They probably could not afford 16 different story lines (just a guess) so they decided to go the AC route to give you role variety. They called them roles and playstyle choices more than once.

 

I don't think they initially set out to create this much discourse...in fact at one time they considered allowing AC change before launch, but of course players campaigned back then and it was withdrawn.

 

IMO they should have had us choose our AC at level 1 and just shared the stories. Then there would have been no doubt that your AC was, in fact a class. Instead they had us choose a "new" class at level 10, silly IMO.

[Aries_cz]

I really think this was all an unintended side effect of wanting to give us choice and diversity. They probably could not afford 16 different story lines (just a guess) so they decided to go the AC route to give you role variety. They called them roles and playstyle choices more than once.

 

I don't think they initially set out to create this much discourse...in fact at one time they considered allowing AC change before launch, but of course players campaigned back then and it was withdrawn.

 

IMO they should have had us choose our AC at level 1 and just shared the stories. Then there would have been no doubt that your AC was, in fact a class. Instead they had us choose a "new" class at level 10, silly IMO.

 

It is probably not about affording, it is about even thinking them up. Even now, some classes have a bit dull stories. And I imagine each story must have a script thick as a shorter book.

And several games (both from MMO verse and Single Player verse) let you choose a advanced class and to not have to option to change it.