ETA on Advanced Class change?

[Ratajack]

but switching talent trees does. and yet, we can already do that.

 

also... you can buy a chiss unlock. used to be credits only. now its credits or cartel coins. so... you don't have to level up a chiss, to roll a chiss jedi.

 

pay to win!

 

A cosmetic change that does not affect fundamental game mechanics is not P2W. Allowing a player to change their class is P2W.

 

More accurately, allowing a player to purchase a class change is P2W.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Ratajack

[PeterTLJr]

A cosmetic change that does not affect fundamental game mechanics is not P2W. Allowing a player to change their class is P2W.

 

More accurately, allowing a player to purchase a class change is P2W.

 

But its not a class change, its an advance class change.

[Khevar]

But its not a class change, its an advance class change.

Cheezus. Can't you come up with a different approach to this argument?

 

Repeating this over and over is about as effective as "I know you are, but what am I?"

[TridusSWTOR]

...

 

If you need to bring up WoW to prove a point, then you failed totally and utterly. Which you have shown already.

 

You wanted comparisons I gave them to you, stop trying to enforce your rules on to other players. It's rude and arrogant. Nice insults by the way, since that is all you can come back on it seems.

 

When you are done throwing a tantrum and decide to actually answer my questions, come back. I have a feeling I'll be waiting a while.

Edited June 25, 2013 by CommunityDroidFR
repost

[TridusSWTOR]

Does leveling a human unlock the chiss race? No. Why should leveling a shadow unlock the ability to change that character's class to sage?

 

So an AC change for a sage would unlock a jedi knight?

 

Oh that's totally what people were asking.

 

Oh wait...it wasn't.

 

Learn the difference.

[TridusSWTOR]

Cheezus. Can't you come up with a different approach to this argument?

 

Repeating this over and over is about as effective as "I know you are, but what am I?"

 

It's an advanced class change we are talking about.

 

Even in the title it states that. Any mention of class being brought up is a pathetic attempt to move the goal-post since nobody can come up with a relevant argument to be against AC changes.

[Khevar]

It's an advanced class change we are talking about.

 

Even in the title it states that. Any mention of class being brought up is a pathetic attempt to move the goal-post since nobody can come up with a relevant argument to be against AC changes.

The problem is that everything that could ever be said about "it's a class change" and "it's not a class change because it's an advanced class" has been said.

 

There is nothing further that could ever be brought to this discussion in that regard.

 

The last 50 pages are filled with this.

[Savej]

Does leveling a human unlock the chiss race? No. Why should leveling a shadow unlock the ability to change that character's class to sage?

 

For the same reason leveling a sage healer lets you switch to playing a sage dps? I'm sure you would oppose that too if you could.

[Jeweledleah]

Cheezus. Can't you come up with a different approach to this argument?

 

Repeating this over and over is about as effective as "I know you are, but what am I?"

 

and yet, that's exactly what you all are doing? "no, its a completely separate class!"

 

at least we provide logical argument why its more of a specialization then a class.

[Khevar]

and yet, that's exactly what you all are doing? "no, its a completely separate class!"

 

at least we provide logical argument why its more of a specialization then a class.

Seriously?

 

"What you all are doing"

 

Who is "you all"? Do you even know what my viewpoint is in this discussion?

Edited June 23, 2013 by Khevar

[LordArtemis]

<snip>

 

I am biased. I do not want AC change. I try and prevent that opinion from affecting the discussion.

 

I made it pretty clear you and I have nothing further to discuss. That means do not quote my posts. Feel free to comment on them, but you and I are no longer having a conversation.

If you ever decide to stop presenting opinions as facts, painting people as pro AC change when they are con or generally attempting to control the debate perhaps we can talk.

 

But I can tell you that no matter how hard you try we will discuss this peacefully. There is absolutely nothing you can do to prevent that. But you can certainly continue to try.

 

If I were you I would not care. My opinion is about as important as navel lint. Stop giving it more importance than it deserves.

 

Im going to do something here i rarely do....speak for others. I think I'm pretty accurate in the following view.....

 

Guys, people like this community member are NOT representative of the Anti AC change group. We are not trolls...we do not want to force our views on others.

 

I expect most of the Anti AC change folks are just as reasonable as the Pro AC change folks. I think we can all discuss this logically and peacefully if we simply ignore the trolling.

 

Do not allow anyone else, including me (especially me, trust me, I'm an idiot), make up your mind for you. You have a right to either support or not support AC change.

 

Do not let these extreme pro or con folks intimidate you. Do not allow them to stop you from expressing your opinion by spreading falsehoods, being combative, or posting false or inaccurate information. They know exactly what they are doing....they are trying to muscle out those that want to discuss this. They want you to agree with them, and if you do not they will find any way possible to try and discredit you.

 

They do not want reason...reason is their enemy. They want you froth at the mouth as they do. Do not allow them to sway you.

 

But trust me when I say that a troll on either side of the debate has NO reputable position or reputation in this forum...just check their post histories. Compare how much they contribute compared to how much they simply berate others.

 

Then you will see whats going on here.

 

I've seen it plenty of times before.

 

There is only one response for trolling.....shenanigans. Respond enough times with that and they will eventually give up.

Edited June 23, 2013 by LordArtemis

[LordArtemis]

To bring it back to base, here are the current proposals discussed in this thread.

 

 

Option 1

Level 10 to 15 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - 24 hour cooldown - once you reach level 16 AC is permanent - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 2

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 3

 

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - no reduction in level - one month cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 4

 

Level 10 to 30 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 5

Level 10 to 46 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will up to 46 - no reduction in level - no cooldown - once you reach level 47 AC is permanent - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 6

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 7

 

No AC change allowed.

 

 

 

And this is the pro and con list as it stands right now. It is certainly open for more additions or corrections.

 

 

PROS

 

1. breathing life into characters that may have been abandoned and thus extending someone's stay in game, their enjoyment in game.

2. allowing people who only have fun playing through a story once - experiment with their character without having to suffer through the story they already know and aren't having fun replaying.

3. allowing people to keep using unique, no longer acquirable items, that include pets, speeders, crystals, armor shells, as well as legacy perk unlocks on a character they have grown attached to, while enjoying the game play style that works better for them, within the same archetype, rather than having to reroll from scratch and lose all the investment they made into a character.

4. making extra money for bioware by making ac switch purchasable with cartel coins.

 

 

CONS

 

1) I would expect that many folks are not going to react well to this change if implemented.

2) They flirted with the idea before launch, even talked about it publicly, but in the end decided not to allow it. At the time folks were pretty dead set against it. I don't think it's likely the current environment has changed much since then.

3) Some classes could end up underrepresented due to bad design. Right now some folks stick with an AC they choose because they would have to reroll and do not wish to do so I would guess.

4) If restrictions are not in place this could end up being abused or exploited.

5) This will likely further demean AC choice.

6) Could cause FOTM issues.

7) If late game AC change is allowed it could end up causing folks that have an AC but do not know how to properly play it running Raids and Operations, making an existing problem worse.

 

 

There may be more, if others want to add pros and cons I can compile lists for both and add it to the post block for the proposals. Only serious, logical, non-insulting pros and cons please.

 

If I have missed anyone else's proposal or wish please let me know so I can correct or add it.

[TridusSWTOR]

The problem is that everything that could ever be said about "it's a class change" and "it's not a class change because it's an advanced class" has been said.

 

There is nothing further that could ever be brought to this discussion in that regard.

 

The last 50 pages are filled with this.

 

Good point. I was just responding to what was being brought up to me.

 

Valid point nonetheless.

 

There are a lot of other view points to discuss!

[MajikMyst]

But its not a class change, its an advance class change.

 

Which is a class change.. Why do you try so hard to ignore that fact?? Your AC is your class.. Simple as that..

[MajikMyst]

Cheezus. Can't you come up with a different approach to this argument?

 

Repeating this over and over is about as effective as "I know you are, but what am I?"

 

^^^

 

Now that is funny!!!

Edited June 23, 2013 by MajikMyst

[MajikMyst]

and yet, that's exactly what you all are doing? "no, its a completely separate class!"

 

at least we provide logical argument why its more of a specialization then a class.

 

You see dude.. There is no logic to this part.. Bioware has stated that they consider the AC to be our class.. That is all you need to know and there is nothing to dispute.. You do not have the authority to challenge Bioware on what is or isn't a class.. If you look at the game mechanics, our AC is our class.. Our talent trees are determined by our AC or class.. So there is nothing to argue here..

 

Yet I am sure you will continue with your denial.. 'I know you are but what am I?' is a simple argument and you are sticking with it aren't you??

 

Consider the fact that there are no rules as to what is or isn't a class, there is no ruling body that defines a class for all games.. We have to live with what the game publisher says.. That is our ruling body for this game.. Your AC is your class.. Any argument to the contrary is baseless for the following reasons.. No sanctioned rules that would work across multiple games and no ruling body sanctioned to rule over multiple games.. Absent of a formal set of rules as to what defines a class.. We are left with the definition given to use by Bioware.. That is just the end of it.. Reguardless of what you may think..

Edited June 23, 2013 by MajikMyst

[MajikMyst]

So you want someone to level a toon to 55 and then re-level that entire toon that they already put the work into? That makes a lot of sense

 

Are you reading impaired?? I never said that at all.. Go back and reread my post again please...

 

Someone that levels a sage to 55 should not get a level 55 shadow if they AC swap.. They should be forced to level the shadow.. If you are going to change your class, then you should at least level that class..

 

Now what about that do you not understand?? It is pretty simple if you ask me.. Try not to twist my words this time.. It really weakens your own integrity.. It is obvious that what I am saying is different than what you said above.. My previous posts will also reflect that...

[SithKoriandr]

Yes, things can change. The fact that something can be changed does not mean it SHOULD be changed. Some things do not need to be changed. Not allowing class changes is one of these, IMO.

 

Now it's just a matter of opinion, so really this is all...I vote yes. I vote no. And no meaningful discussion can happen.

 

What exactly does rerolling ACs hurt? Nothing. I have 8 ACs going now. I could have 1 of each AC, so it wouldn't matter if I switched ACs as I know all the ACs (since rep and empire are just mirrors of each other).

 

So, the reason not to, is really, what, "Learn to play your class?"

 

That's already said to people and they can't reroll their AC.

 

Allowing this would...

 

1) Make more players happy than upset.

 

2) Make TOR MORE MONEY which judging by the various dye threads and datacube threads makes many players happy.

 

3) Hurts no one.

 

I say we just remember #2...TOR GETS MORE MONEY!

[MajikMyst]

Who is asking for a god mode button? Please quote them.

 

In other words.. You can't deal with the point I maid so you are going to play dumb and act as if I actually said someone asked for that..

 

Seriously dude?? I never said anyone asked for it.. But if people are going to play the 'How does it effect you?' argument.. I am going to nail them with that.. How does an optional god mode button effect them?? If you can't intelligently respond to a point someone makes, maybe you shouldn't respond.. Just saying...

 

That is the problem with logic to those that don't understand it.. It can be used in multiple ways and turned against you..

Edited June 23, 2013 by MajikMyst

[MajikMyst]

if I take my sorc now, with her healing gear and switch to dps, lets say madness since I have no clue how to play that tree right now, despite it being one of the available trees... guess what happens? I screw over my group. because I have zero accuracy on my gear, my abilities will miss 10% of the time. because i don't really know how to play that tree, my dps will crumble even further. all that without even AC switch.:

 

See this is the problem.. You really don't seem to know what your are talking about.. You are talking about Accuracy on a Sorc.?? Really?? You want to be the laughing stock of everyone?? Put accuracy on a sorc.. Of any spec.. You are either a healer or a ranged DPS.. You have no need for accuracy..

 

So.. As for your example?? Well?? You need to learn your classes a little better..

 

The point you are attempting to make actually helps the no AC swapping crowed.. If you can't handle playing just under another spec.. Going from heals to ranged DPS.. How on earth are you going to know how to play a tank or mele dps as an Assassin?? You better just stick to a sorc and roll an assassin and learn it the right way.. Not to mention Assassins can stealth.. It is an entirely different play style than a sorc.. They have about as much in common as an apple and an orange.. But at least they are both still fruits..

[Jeweledleah]

You see dude.. There is no logic to this part.. Bioware has stated that they consider the AC to be our class.. That is all you need to know and there is nothing to dispute.. You do not have the authority to challenge Bioware on what is or isn't a class.. If you look at the game mechanics, our AC is our class.. Our talent trees are determined by our AC or class.. So there is nothing to argue here..

 

Yet I am sure you will continue with your denial.. 'I know you are but what am I?' is a simple argument and you are sticking with it aren't you??

 

Consider the fact that there are no rules as to what is or isn't a class, there is no ruling body that defines a class for all games.. We have to live with what the game publisher says.. That is our ruling body for this game.. Your AC is your class.. Any argument to the contrary is baseless for the following reasons.. No sanctioned rules that would work across multiple games and no ruling body sanctioned to rule over multiple games.. Absent of a formal set of rules as to what defines a class.. We are left with the definition given to use by Bioware.. That is just the end of it.. Reguardless of what you may think..

 

that's the thing. they never did. they said they consider them to be fundamentally different in design and this IS true, they are, but they never came out and said - we have 16 classes in this game and each AC is individual class. YOU are the ones that keep claiming that, interpreting their statement to mean what you want it to mean.

 

instead.

 

we have this. explore the classes page

 

http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes

 

even when you click through to each class there's a general description of base class. nowhere does it say that advanced class is an individual class. impression that you are given is that you get these 8 classes to chose from, 4 per side and then you can chose how to specialize them further. tier gear comes out? its presented as base class sets. you are told that your ac is final, but nowhere you are told that you just switched a class - its presented as choosing specialization.

 

which, lets face it - is not that much different from choosing different talent trees.

 

so the permanence of AC? is entirely arbitrary and allowing it to change will impact very little.

 

"but game mechanics!" you keep saying.

 

ever tried switching to healing after leveling dps? what about switching to tanking? what about the other way around? all these changes the game currently allows at will. unlimited amount of times. completely free as a subscriber. and with one time fee? you can even respec without going to the trainer.

 

healing is a fundamentally different role from dps. tanking is extremely different from dps with only common thread being - you hurt things until they die. so we merely, currently have an arbitrary limitation that tells us - you can switch between 2 roles, but not all 3. yes. arbitrary.

 

switching advanced class - still keeps you the class you chose at character creation. its a branch out.

 

as to your "no you" claim. well... pot meet kettle.

[LordArtemis]

One can certainly say AC change is a class change. That much is reasonable, at least based on everything that Bioware has indicated.

 

Bioware has had plenty of opportunities to say otherwise on many occasions but to my knowledge has not done so. Not to mention the fact that they have very clearly said on more than one occasion that they see your AC as a fundamental class design....It doesn't say verbatim it's a class, Ill concede that as I have in the past. But I think it pretty strongly suggests it.

 

Strong indication it is at least looked at like a class, at least in Bioware's eyes.

 

The idea that it is a class or not a class is not the core issue IMO. Yes, I loath the idea of giving the AC choice even less meaning, but that doesn't mean I'm going to shut the door on the idea.

 

If....IF there is going to be AC change in the future I would like to see it with what I consider common sense restrictions. I have much less problem with it if it is very early after you make the first choice, to allow folks that have a "whoops" or "didn't know this AC was this bad" moment to correct it quickly.

 

I just really can't get behind a late game change, even with restrictions....that doesn't mean I'm not willing to discuss it, I just haven't personally seen any compelling....note I say compelling, not valid....compelling reasons to change my mind yet.

 

The reasons I posted against the idea of AC change still pretty much apply IMO. Well, I'm not so worried about FOTM if it is early game, so that is one that pretty much go away with that choice.

 

It's just hard for me to get behind an idea that changing what was meant as a meaningful choice would be so beneficial as to stand above the negatives.

 

This is just my opinion on the matter. I'm still open to listen.

Edited June 23, 2013 by LordArtemis

[MajikMyst]

To bring it back to base, here are the current proposals discussed in this thread.

 

 

Option 1

Level 10 to 15 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - 24 hour cooldown - once you reach level 16 AC is permanent - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 2

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 3

 

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - no reduction in level - one month cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 4

 

Level 10 to 30 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 5

Level 10 to 46 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will up to 46 - no reduction in level - no cooldown - once you reach level 47 AC is permanent - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 6

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 7

 

No AC change allowed.

 

 

 

And this is the pro and con list as it stands right now. It is certainly open for more additions or corrections.

 

 

PROS

 

1. breathing life into characters that may have been abandoned and thus extending someone's stay in game, their enjoyment in game.

2. allowing people who only have fun playing through a story once - experiment with their character without having to suffer through the story they already know and aren't having fun replaying.

3. allowing people to keep using unique, no longer acquirable items, that include pets, speeders, crystals, armor shells, as well as legacy perk unlocks on a character they have grown attached to, while enjoying the game play style that works better for them, within the same archetype, rather than having to reroll from scratch and lose all the investment they made into a character.

4. making extra money for bioware by making ac switch purchasable with cartel coins.

 

 

CONS

 

1) I would expect that many folks are not going to react well to this change if implemented.

2) They flirted with the idea before launch, even talked about it publicly, but in the end decided not to allow it. At the time folks were pretty dead set against it. I don't think it's likely the current environment has changed much since then.

3) Some classes could end up underrepresented due to bad design. Right now some folks stick with an AC they choose because they would have to reroll and do not wish to do so I would guess.

4) If restrictions are not in place this could end up being abused or exploited.

5) This will likely further demean AC choice.

6) Could cause FOTM issues.

7) If late game AC change is allowed it could end up causing folks that have an AC but do not know how to properly play it running Raids and Operations, making an existing problem worse.

 

 

There may be more, if others want to add pros and cons I can compile lists for both and add it to the post block for the proposals. Only serious, logical, non-insulting pros and cons please.

 

If I have missed anyone else's proposal or wish please let me know so I can correct or add it.

 

It is obvious you spent a lot of time cutting and pasting the post above.. Are you ever going to include something that is actually important or just what you think the issue is??

 

This is why you are bias.. You keep posting this stuff as if there are a lot of people talking about it.. All the suggestions above are crap for a reason that is oddly not included on your cons list..

 

What about the integrity of a class?? Wouldn't swapping classes kind of defeat the point of having a class?? Nobody wants to talk about WOW and how they no longer have talent trees.. Or did anyone even notice that?? WOW has no talent trees.. They really have no spec, at least not in the sense of what we call a spec.. This is a product of dual spec'ing. It made the idea of having a spec pointless because we could change anytime we wanted.. Some classes could go from tanks to heals to deeps, right there in the middle of a raid..

 

The other issue you are ignoring is, if Bioware caves on a single swap or just two?? What makes you think these threads will end there?? They will continue until peeps can swap at will and before long, Bioware will have to do something drastic to rebuild and separate the classes.. Like Blizzard did with their specs.. Every 15 levels you get a single point.. You then can choose from 3 talents.. 15 levels later you get another point and have to choose.. That is the new talent tree..

 

So while you cut and paste like a broken record.. Why don't you do us all a favor and put some thought into your posts.. Do some research.. Ponder this issue.. Because it isn't as simple as people like to think it is.. Allowing Class Swapping can do some real harm to this game and anyone that plays it.. Blizzard is bleeding players and has been for a while now.. Nobody that I have talked to that plays WOW likes the new system.. But you know.. Blizzard had to do something.. They really had no specs anymore.. I would prefer to keep my classes here.. As should everyone else..

 

No offense dude, but you really need to look beyond this issue and look at the big picture.. You have seen me say there is no reason to allow AC swapping.. Well.. There isn't.. You should consider that.. There isn't a point to compromise about this either.. Why should something be allowed for no reason?? Do you really think Bioware is going to make a dramatic change to their game for no reason?? It is pointless to talk about compromise when nobody has come up with a viable reason.. It has been mentioned before.. Why would bioware make it so people didn't have to level up another character to play another class?? Wouldn't allowing AC swapping be a loss in content?? Bioware is already struggling with content as it is.. They don't need to do anything that takes more out of the game.. I never see you talk about any of these things.. Which again is why I say you are bias.. You don't want to look at the issue in a serious and intelligent way.. You don't want to look at it from Bioware's point of view.. You just want to paste your little post and watch everyone talk about that.. Well... Sorry.. You are missing the point.. Again, no offense..

Edited June 23, 2013 by MajikMyst

[Jeweledleah]

See this is the problem.. You really don't seem to know what your are talking about.. You are talking about Accuracy on a Sorc.?? Really?? You want to be the laughing stock of everyone?? Put accuracy on a sorc.. Of any spec.. You are either a healer or a ranged DPS.. You have no need for accuracy..

 

So.. As for your example?? Well?? You need to learn your classes a little better..

 

The point you are attempting to make actually helps the no AC swapping crowed.. If you can't handle playing just under another spec.. Going from heals to ranged DPS.. How on earth are you going to know how to play a tank or mele dps as an Assassin?? You better just stick to a sorc and roll an assassin and learn it the right way.. Not to mention Assassins can stealth.. It is an entirely different play style than a sorc.. They have about as much in common as an apple and an orange.. But at least they are both still fruits..

 

oh. my god.

 

you are seriously behind.

 

sorcs started needing accuracy with 2.0. do look it up, dear.

 

all dps need accuracy now. its a running complaint among dps agents (in my guild they are mostly snipers), that most basic gear they can buy has alacrity, instead of accuracy that they actually need so its difficult to hit cap, unless you craft/buy crafted mods.

 

and honey? learning a new playstyle is learning a new playstyle. but at least many of the abilities are familiar, since you use them as both AC's.

 

edited to add

 

I went to the class forums just to get the information for you and oh look - they are again separated by basic class, with subsections for AC.

 

but still - by basic class. isn't that interesting http://www.swtor.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=13

 

anyways, here's a theorycrafting thread for you, since I have a feeling you will continue insisting that I'm wrong, unless someone else tells you otherwise.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=627473

Edited June 23, 2013 by Jeweledleah

[LordArtemis]

Why don't you do us all a favor and put some thought into your posts..

 

Take your own advice. The post RIGHT ABOVE YOUR POST is an exact example of why you need to really take a step back and get a hold on this "ready, fire, aim" problem you have.

 

Not to mention the fact that you have been told more than once that you and I have nothing to discuss. I hope I don't have to tell you again.

 

I added your suggestions to the list. Next time just post them without the quote, the diatribe and the attempt to control the discussion.

Edited June 23, 2013 by LordArtemis