ETA on Advanced Class change?

[MajikMyst]

Those stating that ACs are completely different classes are conveniently ignoring the fact that AC pairs share an entire set of base class skills, use the same main stat pair (END+something else) and share one of the three roles.

 

It's a lot easier to make an argument when you ignore inconvenient facts.

 

We are not ignoring anything.. We are acknowledging that Bioware says they are different classes.. Base class is irrelevant and doesn't determine anything.. It is just how Bioware designed this game..

 

Your problem is that you are attempting to define something that really can't be defined.. You can't use the same rules across multiple games and say it defines a class... In WOW a warlock and mage are almost exactly identical.. There are a few token differences.. But both wear the same gear, use the same main stats, use mana, perform the same role, and both have fire trees.. Yet a mage and warlock are a different class.. The game publisher defines what is or what isn't a class in their own games.. SWTOR is no different.. All we as players have to do is accept that..

 

There is no point in attempting to devalue the AC.. First your wrong, and second you are only doing it, in attempt to get what you want..

 

Your AC is your class..

Edited June 20, 2013 by MajikMyst

[Truga]

^^

 

Yes it makes getting a new class in this game very unlikely.. The whole story thing does kind of lock them into the position of not being able to add new classes..

 

Well, I hope we get more branches. They've already started them with at level 10, no reason not to add a 2nd advanced class at level 50 or so later on.

[Aries_cz]

^^^

 

I would like to know this as well.. Why in this game do people think it is ok to change classes.. People should just live with the choices they make and be done with it.. There is no need to change classes..

 

Because some people are behaving like overly entitled lazy slobs

 

Those stating that ACs are completely different classes are conveniently ignoring the fact that AC pairs share an entire set of base class skills, use the same main stat pair (END+something else) and share one of the three roles.

 

It's a lot easier to make an argument when you ignore inconvenient facts.

 

See my reply to LordArtemis (page 154) why this argument makes no sense

Edited June 20, 2013 by Aries_cz

[astrobearx]

Because some people are behaving like

 

 

yup because anyone who want AC change is clearly acting like as you say "overly entitled lazy slobs"

 

 

there couldnt be any other reasoning why someone may want to switch AC...nope there is no other reason at all beside of course being "overly entitled lazy slobs"

[MajikMyst]

Well, I hope we get more branches. They've already started them with at level 10, no reason not to add a 2nd advanced class at level 50 or so later on.

 

The only problem I see with that is when do we level them and earn talent points?? I am not sure I like the idea of them just dropping 3 new talent trees on us at level 50.. People don't know how to play their characters now as it is..

[MajikMyst]

yup because anyone who want AC change is clearly acting like as you say "overly entitled lazy slobs"

 

 

there couldnt be any other reasoning why someone may want to switch AC...nope there is no other reason at all beside of course being "overly entitled lazy slobs"

 

Actually there isn't.. I have yet to see anyone come up with a reason to allow AC.. Rolling a new character accomplishes the same thing..

 

Why are people in this game so determined to redefine what is or isn't a class.. Played WOW for over 5 years.. I have never seen a discussions about changing classes in their forums.. Let alone questioning what is or isn't a class..

 

In the simplest of terms.. There is no reason to allow AC swapping in this game.. People just need to come to terms with what the word permanent means and live with the consequences of their choice..

 

Not being to lazy to roll a new character would also help.. I have both a shadow and a sage.. It really isn't that hard to do.. It is actually quite fun, especially since the tactics used with my shadow won't work with my sage..

 

So in many respects, he is right.. Read this thread.. They don't care about what Bioware has said.. They don't care about what the game says.. All they care about is what they want.. You can't talk to them with logic and intelligence.. Some feel they are so entitled that they can just redefine what a class is in this game.. Bioware makes the rules around here.. How about that one guy that doesn't know what the EULA is.. You know.. The one that constantly says he pays for his characters so he can do what he wants.. How can anyone address this issue with logic and intelligence when faced with such a lack there of??

 

There is no reason for AC swapping.. AC is your class.. The game says your choice is permanent.. Now all anyone needs to settle this issue is a dictionary and the intelligence to use it properly..

Edited June 20, 2013 by MajikMyst

[astrobearx]

Actually there isn't.. I have yet to see anyone come up with a reason to allow AC.. Rolling a new character accomplishes the same thing..

 

There is no reason for AC swapping.. AC is your class.. The game says your choice is permanent.. Now all anyone needs to settle this issue is a dictionary and the intelligence to use it properly..[

 

:in your opinion you mean? i can see multiple reason to allow it, just as well multiple reasonable reasons to not to. the difference between i and most of the people on this thread is the fact, that you are too entrench into your position. you only desire what you want and damn those who differ in opinion as "lazy" "entitled" and etc., while i can see all the angles without letting my personal views affect the argument

 

 

lol, saying that your choice is permanent is such a moot point, that i cant believe anyone is still using that as the core of their argument. since f2p, all i seen things that was once permanent or gated in a way that couldnt be reached until a certain level been open up via cartel market

 

after looking the quotes lord posted, it is clear that the original intention of the original devs is moot now.using the original devs ideas in a world post their involvement is silly. i mean, you wouldnt expect your former high school to still be performing the same ethics and rules from the previous principal of your time there i school, correct?

 

 

anyways, if you guys vehemently want or oppose AC change cant even at least considering the middle ground and want to stay within your own world , i say just leave the thread to THOSE who can see a potential compromise of the two parties.

Edited June 20, 2013 by astrobearx

[LordArtemis]

LordArtemis, removing basic class is downright stupid.

If I use real military as an example, all soldiers are still soldiers, they still have the same basic training, and they still train those basic skills to be better at them, or just to keep their skills from deteriorating.

Now, a real life soldier can choose a specialization he want to focus on (in our case, AC). For example, he can apply to be a sniper, gaining access to some specialized training. But he still remain a soldier, with all he learned in basic training, and he hones those skills along with sniper skills. And people still refer to him a a soldier, or by his rank.

 

Now, the game refers to you in all stats as your advanced class (everywhere except PvP scoreboard, something for BW to consider changing). Guild window - advanced class. Character selection screen - advanced class. Friend list - advanced class. Class icon - advanced class. Class shown on selecting - advanced class.

The only thing that does not differentiate your specialization is the storyline (see above, you are still a soldier)

 

Is it.

 

Tell me...what type of damage would the game suffer if you became your AC choice entirely, leaving the original class behind?

 

Not to mention that you keep your original class abilities, they just drop in under the AC heading from that point forward.

 

It seems odd to me that you would argue against the SMART idea of making an AC change more meaningful. I was under the impression you were against AC change.

 

See my reply to LordArtemis (page 154) why this argument makes no sense

 

Once again someone makes the foolish mistake of thinking that I am in the Pro AC change column simply because I am willing to discuss it...ignoring the FACT that I have stated on MULTIPLE OCCASIONS the following....

 

AC is different enough to be looked at as a separate class IMO. I think Bioware has also made it clear in the past they feel the same way.

 

I am not wild about any AC change option and would prefer for it to remain as it is.

 

What I DO want is for the game to stop treating the AC change as a trivial thing. I want to transform into my AC, to completely become that class.

 

Then this entire argument becomes moot. I also want Bioware to come straight out and say YOUR AC IS YOUR CLASS. That will really put it bed.

 

I'm really tired of repeating myself to the anti-change crowd. Take some time to do some reading before you throw around silly misinformed opinions.

 

This is not the first time you have made this mistake Aries_cz. Cut it out.

Edited June 20, 2013 by LordArtemis

[LordArtemis]

lol, saying that your choice is permanent is such a moot point, that i cant believe anyone is still using that as the core of their argument. since f2p, all i seen things that was once permanent or gated in a way that couldnt be reached until a certain level been open up via cartel market

 

after looking the quotes lord posted, it is clear that the original intention of the original devs is moot now.using the original devs ideas in a world post their involvement is silly. i mean, you wouldnt expect your former high school to still be performing the same ethics and rules from the previous principal of your time there i school, correct?

 

 

anyways, if you guys vehemently want or oppose AC change cant even at least considering the middle ground and want to stay within your own world , i say just leave the thread to THOSE who can see a potential compromise of the two parties.

 

I think I might know what it is. They may already feel it is not a meaningful choice like it should be and do not want it to be demeaned further by allowing AC change, but can't admit it for some reason.

 

The more these guys rage and present opinions as facts the more I suspect that is the case.

 

I also find it odd that an effort to make the choice even MORE meaningful and encourage Bioware to state, in no uncertain terms that AC is your class, period is resisted by the vehement anti-AC crowd.

 

This just gets more bizarre as time passes. It is as if these guys have no sense of what they are arguing about. Very odd behavior.

 

I restate it again, with some fixes for errors pointed out by a few folks.

 

My view on what they could do to make the AC choice more meaningful and pretty much put this whole argument to bed, so to speak.

 

1) Come out and publicly state, in no uncertain terms, that an AC IS A CLASS. Period. Leave no room for doubt.

 

2) Remove all base class abilities when you choose your AC, the ability to wear base class armor, etc. Provide AC abilities and armor from that point forward. The only exception would be adaptive gear.

 

To be clear, just delete the base class in your abilities panel and move all abilities into the AC column instead. Put all abilities in the trainer under your AC. No more abilities listed to train under your base class.

 

3) Make sure all listings, all references, everything (except perhaps class story, nothing can be done about that now) is changed to refer to you by your NEW CLASS....the AC you chose. There should not be one single remaining reference aside from story that refers to you by your original base class.

 

4) Work on and release, some time in the future, an short AC quest line that brings real meaning to the role you chose. Perhaps a bit of VO work where they directly call you by your new class name.

Edited June 20, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Superman_AZ]

I've stated before that I support AC changes, as long as it is only in exchange for the other AC in the same class. So an OP could change to sniper, or PowerTech change to Merc, or JK Guardian to a Sentinel. These make sense to me since the class is essentially the same and would have similar items in their arsenals. At the core, you are still a Bounty Hunter, but you should be able to "re-train" with a Bounty Hunter trainer and learn how to be a healer instead of a tank, or even a damage dealer.

 

The inherent issue is the advanced class. If we put the Tank / DPS / Heal trees from the ACs into just the main level of the class, and remove the idea of an Advanced Class, this proposition would not seem so foreign. So if you roll a Bounty Hunter, you either spec into a Power Tech tree, A Mercenary Tree, or Field Medic Support Tree (as an example). Then, you could either tank, dps, or heal based on your tree, much the same way every other major MMO works. I think the biggest hang up is the word "Advanced" and the choice you are forced to make at lvl 10.

 

It would be much easier to implement an Advanced Class reset than it would be to remove the AC and all of it's training. This way, there is minimal effort for the Development team, and everyone can "respec" their class from tank, to dps, to healer as they see fit. Maybe they tried tanking and hated it, and want to try healing. They now have to reroll the exact same class and redo the entire 55 levels of gameplay just to try tanking. Pretty bad, and it needs to have an AC change option added at some point.

 

People who have played WoW with respeccing knows this is a benefit to the game, and not a detriment.

[branmakmuffin]

See my reply to LordArtemis (page 154) why this argument makes no sense

Whether ACs are separate classes or simply sub classes of base classes is a matter of opinion. Your argument is simply a long-winded expression of your opinion.

[LordArtemis]

I'd like to make it clear that my contention that AC is unique enough to be considered a class is just my opinion. The contention that Bioware seems to feel the same way based on the comments they have made is also just opinion from me.

 

There are many ways to interpret what was said, my take is not the only one.

 

As I have stated before, the issue is not really whether or not it is a class, though some folks seem stuck on that argument. The issue is whether or not it would be good for players, for the game, and the effect it may have on the game overall.

 

Just my thoughts on it.

[Ratajack]

I've stated before that I support AC changes, as long as it is only in exchange for the other AC in the same class. So an OP could change to sniper, or PowerTech change to Merc, or JK Guardian to a Sentinel. These make sense to me since the class is essentially the same and would have similar items in their arsenals. At the core, you are still a Bounty Hunter, but you should be able to "re-train" with a Bounty Hunter trainer and learn how to be a healer instead of a tank, or even a damage dealer.

 

The inherent issue is the advanced class. If we put the Tank / DPS / Heal trees from the ACs into just the main level of the class, and remove the idea of an Advanced Class, this proposition would not seem so foreign. So if you roll a Bounty Hunter, you either spec into a Power Tech tree, A Mercenary Tree, or Field Medic Support Tree (as an example). Then, you could either tank, dps, or heal based on your tree, much the same way every other major MMO works. I think the biggest hang up is the word "Advanced" and the choice you are forced to make at lvl 10.

 

It would be much easier to implement an Advanced Class reset than it would be to remove the AC and all of it's training. This way, there is minimal effort for the Development team, and everyone can "respec" their class from tank, to dps, to healer as they see fit. Maybe they tried tanking and hated it, and want to try healing. They now have to reroll the exact same class and redo the entire 55 levels of gameplay just to try tanking. Pretty bad, and it needs to have an AC change option added at some point.

 

People who have played WoW with respeccing knows this is a benefit to the game, and not a detriment.

 

The devs intentionally designed this game so taht no single character could perform all three roles, tank, DPS and heals. Some characters can perform two of those roles, but not all three. This is by intentional design. Allowing AC (class) changes would undermine that design, as would eliminating the AC's and just giving the base class three talent trees.

 

There have been many suggested compromises as to how an AC could possibly be implemented with enough restrictions to hopefully address the concerns of those against class changes, while at the same time giving the option to change classes to those who want to change their AC's. In my opinion, the best two of these options both involve resetting the character to level 10, the biggest differences in those two suggestions being the maximum level at which a class change would be permitted and the number of maximum changes allowed.

[Grayseven]

The devs intentionally designed this game so taht no single character could perform all three roles, tank, DPS and heals. Some characters can perform two of those roles, but not all three. This is by intentional design. Allowing AC (class) changes would undermine that design, as would eliminating the AC's and just giving the base class three talent trees.

 

There have been many suggested compromises as to how an AC could possibly be implemented with enough restrictions to hopefully address the concerns of those against class changes, while at the same time giving the option to change classes to those who want to change their AC's. In my opinion, the best two of these options both involve resetting the character to level 10, the biggest differences in those two suggestions being the maximum level at which a class change would be permitted and the number of maximum changes allowed.

 

Players would still be limited to the roles that they could perform at any one time, as long as changing AC has a restriction that prevents changing it as much as we can currently change spec as subscribers.

 

Resetting the level completely negates the reasoning some have behind allowing AC change. After 13 characters, I'm tired of leveling. I flat out hate it so much that once I've capped my current characters I will not do it again. After so many times, it becomes boring. And yes, I've done everything from using Group Finder to just grinding out mobs instead of doing the same quests over and over and the replay ability of the leveling in this game wears thin after the first few times.

 

Changing AC's should only be restricted by how often they can be done as well as either restricting it with a high credit cost or (and I hate saying this) through a CM cost equivalent of 15 to 20 bucks. I'm also good with an unlock requirement. Changing AC should NOT be easy, but neither should it be excessively restrictive to the point no one would use it. It should be nothing more than a change of pace option for those who have grown tired of the current AC and want to try the specs on the "other side" while keeping their "main" in action.

[Hizoka]

Players would still be limited to the roles that they could perform at any one time, as long as changing AC has a restriction that prevents changing it as much as we can currently change spec as subscribers.

 

Resetting the level completely negates the reasoning some have behind allowing AC change. After 13 characters, I'm tired of leveling. I flat out hate it so much that once I've capped my current characters I will not do it again. After so many times, it becomes boring. And yes, I've done everything from using Group Finder to just grinding out mobs instead of doing the same quests over and over and the replay ability of the leveling in this game wears thin after the first few times.

 

Changing AC's should only be restricted by how often they can be done as well as either restricting it with a high credit cost or (and I hate saying this) through a CM cost equivalent of 15 to 20 bucks. I'm also good with an unlock requirement. Changing AC should NOT be easy, but neither should it be excessively restrictive to the point no one would use it. It should be nothing more than a change of pace option for those who have grown tired of the current AC and want to try the specs on the "other side" while keeping their "main" in action.

 

TDLR: you want free characters at max level because you are too entitled to earn a new character.

[Grayseven]

TDLR: you want free characters at max level because you are too entitled to earn a new character.

 

Wrong, which you would see if you even bothered to read the post instead of just show up to insult people because you have no valid argument against the topic.

 

A free character at max level would be if I clicked on the character selection screen and instead of creating a level one character I would create a level 55 character.

 

All the AC change does is allow a person to take a character they have already leveled up and try out the other set of specs for their chosen class. Something you'd realize if you'd bury your ignorant and childish behavior on these forums and actually engaged in thoughtful dialog...but I should expect such behavior from a child.

 

Your continued insistence on insults instead of debate just further fuels my belief that you have no argument.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Grayseven

[TridusSWTOR]

Show the quote from BioWARE or your argument is forfeit and your Trolling for attention.

 

You are a troll and have been deemed to have bad ideas and views on what this game should offer.

 

I have spoken, now obey.

[Hizoka]

Wrong, which you would see if you even bothered to read the post instead of just show up to insult people because you have no valid argument against the topic.

 

A free character at max level would be if I clicked on the character selection screen and instead of creating a level one character I would create a level 55 character.

 

All the AC change does is allow a person to take a character they have already leveled up and try out the other set of specs for their chosen class. Something you'd realize if you'd bury your ignorant and childish behavior on these forums and actually engaged in thoughtful dialog...but I should expect such behavior from a child.

 

Your continued insistence on insults instead of debate just further fuels my belief that you have no argument.

 

What you do not comprehend is that a powertech is not the same class as a mercenary. So getting a mercenary at anything but level 1 is a new class you have NEVER PLAYED. You want a new class for no reason other then childish want. Sorry if you simply lack the intelligence needed to understand it but that is the fact of this game. There are 8 classes on each side 2 classes each share the same story. You need different weapons and a different skill set to play each class.

 

A guardian is not a sentinel any more then an assassin is a mercenary. You are just not capable of grasping that fact because you want something you did not earn due to being lazy and childish.

[TridusSWTOR]

We are not ignoring anything.. We are acknowledging that Bioware says they are different classes.. Base class is irrelevant and doesn't determine anything.. It is just how Bioware designed this game..

 

Your problem is that you are attempting to define something that really can't be defined.. You can't use the same rules across multiple games and say it defines a class... In WOW a warlock and mage are almost exactly identical.. There are a few token differences.. But both wear the same gear, use the same main stats, use mana, perform the same role, and both have fire trees.. Yet a mage and warlock are a different class.. The game publisher defines what is or what isn't a class in their own games.. SWTOR is no different.. All we as players have to do is accept that..

 

There is no point in attempting to devalue the AC.. First your wrong, and second you are only doing it, in attempt to get what you want..

 

Your AC is your class..

 

What a player does with the character they PAY for can't be dictated by you, unless you are paying for that players sub.

 

With a AC change option, you have the choice to use it or if you don't believe in it, you don't use it.

 

It's that simple. Sorry but end of story, you can't counter-debate that fact. I dare anyone to try.

[TridusSWTOR]

What you do not comprehend is that a powertech is not the same class as a mercenary. So getting a mercenary at anything but level 1 is a new class you have NEVER PLAYED. You want a new class for no reason other then childish want. Sorry if you simply lack the intelligence needed to understand it but that is the fact of this game. There are 8 classes on each side 2 classes each share the same story. You need different weapons and a different skill set to play each class.

 

A guardian is not a sentinel any more then an assassin is a mercenary. You are just not capable of grasping that fact because you want something you did not earn due to being lazy and childish.

 

How did they not earn it if they already leveled/geared the character to begin with?

 

How can you even compare getting a "free level 55" character, when they did all the leg work? You are making zero sense and offering no logical reasoning behind why someone would even think that way.

 

The price people pay for a AC switch, is learning a new class and probably re-gearing. That's more than fair and suitable. Since they did the work, stop trying to tell other players how they should play THEIR game. Do you pay for their sub? No? Then stop trying to control people on how they play THEIR game.

 

It's as simple as that.

[MajikMyst]

What a player does with the character they PAY for can't be dictated by you, unless you are paying for that players sub.

 

With a AC change option, you have the choice to use it or if you don't believe in it, you don't use it.

 

It's that simple. Sorry but end of story, you can't counter-debate that fact. I dare anyone to try.

 

Read the EULA and get back to me when you are familiar with reality..

 

Nobody pays for a character.. Nobody owns a character and nobody gets to do what they want.. Bioware owns your character and gets to make all the rules.. Such is the reality of every MMO on the market today.. See what happens when you don't read that page of words you agree to when you install the game??

 

The game says your choice is permanent.. Live with it and deal with it.. Let me know if you need me to look up the word permanent??

 

There is no need for an AC change.. They can roll a new character and accomplish the same things.. The only reason is simply, people are to lazy to roll another character..

 

As for you knowing fact.. Not hardly.. You are just plain wrong on everything..

 

As for daring someone?? Well.. Since you haven't read the EULA and you don't know anything about what it says.. How about I just leave it as you made a fool of yourself and stuck your foot in your keyboard.. Because your post is wrong on all accounts..

Edited June 21, 2013 by MajikMyst

[MajikMyst]

Players would still be limited to the roles that they could perform at any one time, as long as changing AC has a restriction that prevents changing it as much as we can currently change spec as subscribers..

 

The problem with your argument?? AC swapping has a restriction now that some people don't care about.. What makes you think they are going to care about your restrictions??

 

There is no need to change your AC.. It wouldn't be in Bioware's best interest anyways.. Taking away the need to level another character is a huge loss of content.. If people don't want to play the game then they shouldn't play it.. Not to mention pollute the forums with their demands for short cuts and making things easier..

 

Bioware doesn't want a single class (AC) to be able to both tank and heal.. Tanks and healers need to be separate characters.. Bioware was very specific about that when this issue came up during the beta.. It really should stay that way..

[MajikMyst]

Wrong, which you would see if you even bothered to read the post instead of just show up to insult people because you have no valid argument against the topic.

 

A free character at max level would be if I clicked on the character selection screen and instead of creating a level one character I would create a level 55 character.

 

All the AC change does is allow a person to take a character they have already leveled up and try out the other set of specs for their chosen class. Something you'd realize if you'd bury your ignorant and childish behavior on these forums and actually engaged in thoughtful dialog...but I should expect such behavior from a child.

 

Your continued insistence on insults instead of debate just further fuels my belief that you have no argument.

 

That is getting a free character for free... Your AC is your class.. Each class is a character.. Changing your AC is getting a new character...

 

Get it now??

[Hizoka]

That is getting a free character for free... Your AC is your class.. Each class is a character.. Changing your AC is getting a new character...

 

Get it now??

 

hes as bad as the other guy. It does not suit his agenda so therefore he will never comprehend that your AC is your final class.

[LordArtemis]

Ok, I think at this point I have them all. Let me know if I missed any or if any need correction.

 

 

Option 1 - This is the one I am currently willing to begrudgingly support

Level 10 to 15 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - 24 hour cooldown - once you reach level 16 AC is permanent - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 2

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 3

 

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - no reduction in level - one month cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 4

 

Level 10 to 30 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 5

Level 10 to 46 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will up to 46 - no reduction in level - no cooldown - once you reach level 47 AC is permanent - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 6

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 7 - This is the one that would be my preference, though I'm reasonably open to option 1

 

No AC change allowed.