ETA on Advanced Class change?

[Ratajack]

Just about every popular swtor site has the 8 classes listed as Jedi Knight, Jedi Consular, Trooper, Smuggler, Sith Warrior, Sith Inquisitor, Bountyhunter, Imperial Agent. Now, if these sites are wrong, I suppose somebody should fix them. Until then, my trooper would like to respec into commando instead of vanguard, thanks.

http://swtor.wikia.com/wiki/Classes

http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes

http://www.torhead.com/player-classes

 

Once again, I refer to the earlier quote from the devs regarding AC's being different classes. Your vanguard would like to change his CLASS to commando.

[PeterTLJr]

Once again, I refer to the earlier quote from the devs regarding AC's being different classes. Your vanguard would like to change his CLASS to commando.

 

pretty sure the dev that was quoted from the beginning of this thread referred to them as ADVANCE class, not just class.

[Ratajack]

pretty sure the dev that was quoted from the beginning of this thread referred to them as ADVANCE class, not just class.

 

The quote in the OP is NOT the quote in which the devs said they were different classes. The quote in the OP is the quote in which they say that AC changing will "likely happen" at some undetermined point in the future.

 

Once again, here is the quote regarding AC's being different classes:

 

 

 

Quote: Originally Posted by Yvin View Post

Hey folks,

 

Please be sure to read the Community Blog section, where weekly Q&As are posted. The one from February 10th answers this question:

 

 

Quote:

Aurozia: Will there be a dual specialization system in the future? Will there be a possibility of changing advance classes as well?

 

Daniel Erickson: We have no plans for switching advanced classes - which we see as fundamentally different class designs- but dual spec is in the works and coming soon.

 

 

 

You may find the full Q&A here and the discussion thread here. Check back on Friday to see what questions were selected this week!

 

Please also remember that our Developer Tracker is a great way to find out what the developers are posting!

[PeterTLJr]

The quote in the OP is NOT the quote in which the devs said they were different classes. The quote in the OP is the quote in which they say that AC changing will "likely happen" at some undetermined point in the future.

 

Once again, here is the quote regarding AC's being different classes:

 

 

 

Quote: Originally Posted by Yvin View Post

Hey folks,

 

Please be sure to read the Community Blog section, where weekly Q&As are posted. The one from February 10th answers this question:

 

 

Quote:

Aurozia: Will there be a dual specialization system in the future? Will there be a possibility of changing advance classes as well?

 

Daniel Erickson: We have no plans for switching advanced classes - which we see as fundamentally different class designs- but dual spec is in the works and coming soon.

 

 

 

You may find the full Q&A here and the discussion thread here. Check back on Friday to see what questions were selected this week!

 

Please also remember that our Developer Tracker is a great way to find out what the developers are posting!

 

Obviously they dont seeing as how a newer post said it will likely happen.

[ForsakenKing]

does it matter? this feature in any shape or form will not be added to the game. why? go to dev posts for reasonable answers. ill just say that it is the in the top 3 dumbest swtor feature ideas of all times

 

now if yall can let this thread die like it should have when it was created, that would be lovely

Edited June 12, 2013 by ForsakenKing

[Ratajack]

Obviously they dont seeing as how a newer post said it will likely happen.

 

For the intentionally obtuse:

 

Hey folks,

 

Please be sure to read the Community Blog section, where weekly Q&As are posted. The one from February 10th answers this question:

 

 

Quote:

Aurozia: Will there be a dual specialization system in the future? Will there be a possibility of changing advance classes as well?

 

Daniel Erickson: We have no plans for switching advanced classes - which we see as fundamentally different class designs- but dual spec is in the works and coming soon.

 

 

You may find the full Q&A here and the discussion thread here. Check back on Friday to see what questions were selected this week!

 

Please also remember that our Developer Tracker is a great way to find out what the developers are posting!

 

fundamentally different class designs

 

In that quote they did say that they had no plans to allow switching AC's. They have since made a statement that AC changes will "likely happen" at some undetermined point in the future. They have NOT uttered one peep since about AC changes, despite several massive threads about AC's.

 

While it remains to be seen if they actually will allow changing class, they have NEVER contradicted or gone back on their stance that different AC's are DIFFERENT CLASSES.

[branmakmuffin]

does it matter? this feature in any shape or form will not be added to the game. why? go to dev posts for reasonable answers. ill just say that it is the in the top 3 dumbest swtor feature ideas of all times

 

now if yall can let this thread die like it should have when it was created, that would be lovely

Nothing's worse than being forced to read and participate in a thread which topic you disagree with.

[branmakmuffin]

why do you guys keep twisting my words, your trying to say i want to allow base class change, no i dont want that, i want AC change.

It's easier to refute a strawman of their own making.

 

Advanced Classes ARE different classes, period, end of story, get over it.

In your opinion. End of story. Get over it.

Edited June 12, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Grayseven]

So what exactly is the problem with someone who has a Jedi Shadow changing that character to a Jedi Sage? It's not like it takes longer than, say, one day's worth of Makeb dailies to learn the class considering the sheer amount of spec, rotation and gearing guides available online...

 

I'd have a problem changing from Commando to Jedi Knight as they are completely different classes, story lines and the like, but don't have an issue with Advanced Class change.

 

People seem to be making a big ado about nothing with this topic. It's a non-issue. Especially considering something like this wouldn't be like re-spec and would likely cost a large hunk of CC's.

[Ratajack]

So what exactly is the problem with someone who has a Jedi Shadow changing that character to a Jedi Sage? It's not like it takes longer than, say, one day's worth of Makeb dailies to learn the class considering the sheer amount of spec, rotation and gearing guides available online...

 

I'd have a problem changing from Commando to Jedi Knight as they are completely different classes, story lines and the like, but don't have an issue with Advanced Class change.

 

People seem to be making a big ado about nothing with this topic. It's a non-issue. Especially considering something like this wouldn't be like re-spec and would likely cost a large hunk of CC's.

 

A class change is a class change, whether that be from a shadow to vanguard or from a shadow to sage. I do not think that is a can of worms that is worth opening.

 

Sometimes it is better not to give that mouse his cookie, or to set foot upon the slippery slope.

 

In the words of a very wise being:

The dark side is "Quicker, easier, more seductive", but "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will..."

[Tragamite]

One big reason it will not happen, warrior/knight armor difference in ac. While other AC only change a weapon and switching would just need to unequip M/OH a warrior/knight would need to switch everything.

 

If it happens it should be a permanent change. Just like when you initially select your AC you should be told it is a perma change

[LordArtemis]

While it remains to be seen if they actually will allow changing class, they have NEVER contradicted or gone back on their stance that different AC's are DIFFERENT CLASSES.

 

Dev quotes have already been provided in this very thread that proves that is not true. They very clearly originally described the AC as a "playstyle choice", did not design it as an individual class, and only started inferring it as an individual class after being pressed because they chose to remove the ability to change AC.

 

It is accurate to state that since launch they have been consistent in inferring that AC is like an individual class. It is not accurate to say they have never contradicted or gone back on their stance.

[Ratajack]

Dev quotes have already been provided in this very thread that proves that is not true. They very clearly originally described the AC as a "playstyle choice", did not design it as an individual class, and only started inferring it as an individual class after being pressed because they chose to remove the ability to change AC.

 

It is accurate to state that since launch they have been consistent in inferring that AC is like an individual class. It is not accurate to say they have never contradicted or gone back on their stance.

 

Did I say that the AC's were designed from the start as different classes? No. I said that the devs have never contradicted nor gone back on their stance that the different AC's were different classes. There is a difference.

 

During development the AC's may have been originally designed to be "play style choices". That changed before release (long before, if I am not mistaken) and once that changed, the devs have been steadfast about the AC's being different classes.

 

While I respect your opinions, have you once seen anything from the devs since that change in design philosophy during beta in which they have contradicted or gone back on their stance of AC's being different classes? My statement is entirely accurate.

[LordArtemis]

Did I say that the AC's were designed from the start as different classes? No. I said that the devs have never contradicted nor gone back on their stance that the different AC's were different classes. There is a difference.

 

During development the AC's may have been originally designed to be "play style choices". That changed before release (long before, if I am not mistaken) and once that changed, the devs have been steadfast about the AC's being different classes.

 

While I respect your opinions, have you once seen anything from the devs since that change in design philosophy during beta in which they have contradicted or gone back on their stance of AC's being different classes? My statement is entirely accurate.

 

They did not change the design. The design remains the same to this day, other than some adjustments to abilities. They designed them as playstyle choices or "advanced roles" and that design remains to this day.

 

They simply decided to start inferring that they are like separate classes to defend their decision to remove the ability to change AC and have held that stance ever since.

 

The new dev staff may or may not look at ACs that way but they definitely are not in the "no AC changes" category any longer.

 

At any rate it is splitting hairs. There are many broad statements being made on both sides that simply are not completely accurate. I am just trying to keep people from running with things that are not entirely true.

[Ratajack]

They did not change the design. The design remains the same to this day, other than some adjustments to abilities. They designed them as playstyle choices or "advanced roles" and that design remains to this day.

 

They simply decided to start inferring that they are like separate classes to defend their decision to remove the ability to change AC and have held that stance ever since.

 

The new dev staff may or may not look at ACs that way but they definitely are not in the "no AC changes" category any longer.

 

At any rate it is splitting hairs. There are many broad statements being made on both sides that simply are not completely accurate. I am just trying to keep people from running with things that are not entirely true.

 

As I said, I respect your opinions, and I recognize that latest quote gives some reason to believe that the new devs may no longer be in the "no Ac changes" category. That said, I do not believe that the new devs are as far out of the "no AC changes" camp as you think, nor do I think we will see AC changes anytime within the next year or two at least, unless this game takes a severe downward spiral. I really believe that if the devs had any intention of even seriously considering AC changes we would have heard at least something further after that latest quote. This is especially true, as I said, given the numbers of lengthy threads about this very topic.

[Pietrastor]

One big reason it will not happen, warrior/knight armor difference in ac. While other AC only change a weapon and switching would just need to unequip M/OH a warrior/knight would need to switch everything.

 

If it happens it should be a permanent change. Just like when you initially select your AC you should be told it is a perma change

Very true. A Marauder/Sent changing to Jugg/Guardian would automatically lose more than half of the gear. Edited June 12, 2013 by Pietrastor

[Ratajack]

They did not change the design. The design remains the same to this day, other than some adjustments to abilities. They designed them as playstyle choices or "advanced roles" and that design remains to this day.

 

They simply decided to start inferring that they are like separate classes to defend their decision to remove the ability to change AC and have held that stance ever since.

 

The new dev staff may or may not look at ACs that way but they definitely are not in the "no AC changes" category any longer.

 

At any rate it is splitting hairs. There are many broad statements being made on both sides that simply are not completely accurate. I am just trying to keep people from running with things that are not entirely true.

 

As I said, I respect your opinions, and I recognize that latest quote gives some reason to believe that the new devs may no longer be in the "no Ac changes" category. That said, I do not believe that the new devs are as far out of the "no AC changes" camp as you think, nor do I think we will see AC changes anytime within the next year or two at least, unless this game takes a severe downward spiral. I really believe that if the devs had any intention of even seriously considering AC changes we would have heard at least something further after that latest quote. This is especially true, as I said, given the numbers of lengthy threads about this very topic.

[LordArtemis]

As I said, I respect your opinions, and I recognize that latest quote gives some reason to believe that the new devs may no longer be in the "no Ac changes" category. That said, I do not believe that the new devs are as far out of the "no AC changes" camp as you think, nor do I think we will see AC changes anytime within the next year or two at least, unless this game takes a severe downward spiral. I really believe that if the devs had any intention of even seriously considering AC changes we would have heard at least something further after that latest quote. This is especially true, as I said, given the numbers of lengthy threads about this very topic.

 

I think that is a reasonable viewpoint. I also think you and I agree on a few concerns.

 

Please don't take my comment as an attack. It was not intended as such. I am simply trying to make sure that all sides of the conversation remain reasonable as far as contentions and accuracy are concerned.

 

I think your point certainly has merit and is a sensible view to have. I'm not sure if I agree completely but I think any sensible person has to concede a few points from both sides of the discussion coin....

 

1) They have pretty clearly inferred that AC's are considered unique classes...though they have rarely eluded to this directly, they have insinuated that view many times since launch. They have only stopped short in stating in direct terms that there are 16 classes in the game....that contention comes from the community.

 

2) The original dev staff was pretty clearly against free and open respecs, AC change and character re-customization and race change since they felt all of these things were and should always be permanent choices and choices need to matter.

 

They even went so far as to state that no AC change allowance will likely ever be allowed, the game did not support character re-customization and probably never would and allowing free and open respecs would trivialize spec choices and they feel that is contrary to original design intent. Direct dev posts to that effect have been posted. They were definitely anti-choice, catering to the hardcore WoW crowd.

 

3) The current dev team seems much more open to changing former permanent decisions. Character re-customization, race change, free respecs and cross class gear appearance have all been added.

 

4) AC change is much more controversial than any of the prior change reversals and would likely have an impact on the game that is much more obvious than the changes made so far, with F2P market perhaps being the only exception.

 

5) Regardless of original design intent, Bioware views on the matter, or even other games, the ACs are unique enough that one could view them as separate classes.

 

6) Whether considered class change or role change the problems and benefits remain the same, and therefore it is probably a moot point. It is an attempt to redefine the characters role in the game....how it is labeled does not diminish or promote the effect of this proposed change on the game.

 

In other words whether or not it is a class is a moot point. It only frames whether or not it has "moral" implications. Otherwise the impact is the same as when any change in role is suggested.

 

Just my views on the matter.

Edited June 12, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Khevar]

I paid my 5 pounds.

First of all, +100 internets for you.

The gear shouldnt affect this decision. If you change AC, you know your going to have to get new gear, well in some cases.

 

And I agree, bringing in this feature might cause some people to QQ on forums, I doubt itll be any worse then people complaining about their AC now.

Plus no matter what is allowed or disallowed in the game, people will QQ. Thus "level of QQing" should never be a consideration regarding what changes to make (or not to make) to the game.

I've been thinking about this particular point, the one of gear changing.

 

On the one hand, I agree that QQ shouldn't drive developer decisions.

 

On the other hand, I firmly believe that to come up with an AC swapping implementation without taking into account how it would affect gear is sloppy development work.

 

If you were a Bioware dev, and you were to architect the implementation of AC swapping, you would look at the situation of gear changing. You would try, if possible, to come up with a bright idea to make it work. If the sum total of your dev attention were to add a popup that said "You might not be able to wear your gear once you swap", that is poor planning and no imagination.

 

Now, I think (my opinion only) that it's fair to ignore the tanking gear situation, because that exists when re-speccing a skill tree already. As well, most dps gear can be swapped with healing gear (accuracy notwithstanding), So I think a fair comparison is to just look at what would happen with dps gear on both sides.

 

(Republic names for simplicity)

 

Commando / Vanguard - This is straightforward. Both use heavy armor, and secondary stats are comparable.

Sage / Shadow - Ditto. Light armor, similar stat priority.

Scoundrel / Gunsligner - Medium armor, good on stats.

Sentinel / Guardian - Suddenly we have a problem. While the secondary stat targets for dps are close enough, the Guardian's heavy armor can't be worn by sentinels.

 

So 7 directions of swapping are pretty much fine. One isn't (Guardian -> Sentinel)

 

I posit that saying "too bad" is crappy architecture for an implementation of AC swapping.

 

Don't be lazy. Think it through. Suggest a solution for this gear problem on a swap that's better than "too bad, he saw a popup message"

Edited June 12, 2013 by Khevar

[Ratajack]

3) The current dev team seems much more open to changing former permanent decisions. Character re-customization, race change, free respecs and cross class gear appearance have all been added.

 

These things have all been added to the game. Not one of them affects the fundamental mechanics of any class. The armor and weapons do not change. The skill sets do not change. Also, with the exception of free respecs, they are all cosmetic changes only, and free respecs only saves a player credits.

 

Allowing AC changes, or class changes, would alter the fundamental mechanics of a given character. The armor type may change or it may stay the same, but if a player wants to min/max, the stats change. The weapons most certainly will change. The play style will change, as most classes differ in that regard as well, whether that be melee vs ranged, mobile vs stationary, stealth vs non-stealth, or any of the other myriad differences.

[Grayseven]

A class change is a class change, whether that be from a shadow to vanguard or from a shadow to sage. I do not think that is a can of worms that is worth opening.

 

Sometimes it is better not to give that mouse his cookie, or to set foot upon the slippery slope.

 

In the words of a very wise being:

The dark side is "Quicker, easier, more seductive", but "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will..."

 

I have to disagree on this. Class change is a completely different set of circumstances if for no other reason than the class story line. Advanced classes, while different, aren't such a big change to inspire such negativity.

 

Creating a new character means going back through the same exact story line...again. Allowing advanced class changes wouldn't upset anything. Yeah, some classes would have to re-gear but that isn't hard to do. Learning new rotations is simple as well so I can't see any justification in opposing AC changes.

 

There isn't any slippery slope or worm cans involved in allowing AC. It wouldn't lead to allowing regular class changes if, again, only because of the story lines for each class.

[branmakmuffin]

A class change is a class change, whether that be from a shadow to vanguard or from a shadow to sage. I do not think that is a can of worms that is worth opening.

If you're going to equate Shadow -> Sage with Shadow -> Vanguard (or similar), your arguments are going to look even sillier than they already do.

 

Don't be lazy. Think it through. Suggest a solution for this gear problem on a swap that's better than "too bad, he saw a popup message"

It's not a big deal because the only person affected is the player doing the AC change. If he or she can't be bothered to be aware that going from Guardian to Sentinel will require different armor (and that's assuming the character is not wearing adaptive armor), why should anyone else care? It's still just a game. No one's gonna die because their computer game character is poorly equipped.

Edited June 12, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[spectreclees]

I have to disagree on this. Class change is a completely different set of circumstances if for no other reason than the class story line. Advanced classes, while different, aren't such a big change to inspire such negativity.

 

Creating a new character means going back through the same exact story line...again. Allowing advanced class changes wouldn't upset anything. Yeah, some classes would have to re-gear but that isn't hard to do. Learning new rotations is simple as well so I can't see any justification in opposing AC changes.

 

There isn't any slippery slope or worm cans involved in allowing AC. It wouldn't lead to allowing regular class changes if, again, only because of the story lines for each class.

 

It doesn't mean you have to do the story again. There are alternative methods to leveling now and with Double XP weekends coming back. You don't even have to touch it. Stop making excuses to make them allow you to change your class.

[branmakmuffin]

It doesn't mean you have to do the story again. There are alternative methods to leveling now and with Double XP weekends coming back. You don't even have to touch it. Stop making excuses to make them allow you to change your class.

Stop stating that "advanced class" is the same as "class" as if that matter is totally settled when it clearly is not. Brushing aside a highly debatable proposition to make your argument doesn't earn you any points in the Argument Clinic.

[PeterTLJr]

for those who care, i started a new thread to get more opinions on this as im starting to see more and more of the same names

id like you guys to continue debating about this if youd like

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=649896