ETA on Advanced Class change?

[LordArtemis]

Since the latest quote from Bioware is being interpreted as doublespeak or lip service and we are expected to accept that possibility, it is only fair to also accept the possibility that this quote does not mean what it infers either....

 

Aurozia: Will there be a dual specialization system in the future? Will there be a possibility of changing advance classes as well?

 

Daniel Erickson: We have no plans for switching advanced classes - which we see as fundamentally different class designs- but dual spec is in the works and coming soon.

 

Fundamentally different class designs does not necessarily mean completely different classes. It could be inferred that they meant very different designs WITHIN the class.

 

I think it is likely they meant exactly what they said...but then again we are prone to making our own definitions here. The argument can be made they did not DIRECTLY state there are 16 classes in the game. To my knowledge this is a community contention only.

 

I could be wrong naturally. I am open to posts from Bioware that state there are 16 classes if anyone has them.

[PeterTLJr]

Then I guess you know more than the devs, because as has been stated and quoted many times, they have stated otherwise. Why is it called advanced CLASS and not advanced spec?

 

Maybe when you write tht letter, you should ask EA to fire all the devs and let you do all the work on this game, since you know better than the devs.

 

ok, i will do that.

[PeterTLJr]

Since the latest quote from Bioware is being interpreted as doublespeak or lip service and we are expected to accept that possibility, it is only fair to also accept the possibility that this quote does not mean what it infers either....

 

Aurozia: Will there be a dual specialization system in the future? Will there be a possibility of changing advance classes as well?

 

Daniel Erickson: We have no plans for switching advanced classes - which we see as fundamentally different class designs- but dual spec is in the works and coming soon.

 

Fundamentally different class designs does not necessarily mean completely different classes. It could be inferred that they meant very different designs WITHIN the class.

 

I think it is likely they meant exactly what they said...but then again we are prone to making our own definitions here. The argument can be made they did not DIRECTLY state there are 16 classes in the game. To my knowledge this is a community contention only.

 

I could be wrong naturally. I am open to posts from Bioware that state there are 16 classes if anyone has them.

 

According to the actual site, and every other site, theres 4 classes on each faction, not 8 or 16. That is what im going off, unless im told different from a post that isnt older then a year, that is what ill stand by.

Edited June 11, 2013 by PeterTLJr

[TangledDruid]

troopers the class, commando and vanguards are specs.

 

Sorry.

 

Specs are:

Combat Medic

Gunnery

Assault

 

Edit:

ZOMG, I fell for it again.

 

You are either a Grade A Troll, or we need to talk to your helper.

Edited June 11, 2013 by TangledDruid

[PeterTLJr]

Sorry.

 

Specs are:

Combat Medic

Gunnery

Assault

 

those are just trees, not specs.

[Ratajack]

Since the latest quote from Bioware is being interpreted as doublespeak or lip service and we are expected to accept that possibility, it is only fair to also accept the possibility that this quote does not mean what it infers either....

 

Aurozia: Will there be a dual specialization system in the future? Will there be a possibility of changing advance classes as well?

 

Daniel Erickson: We have no plans for switching advanced classes - which we see as fundamentally different class designs- but dual spec is in the works and coming soon.

 

Fundamentally different class designs does not necessarily mean completely different classes. It could be inferred that they meant very different designs WITHIN the class.

 

I think it is likely they meant exactly what they said...but then again we are prone to making our own definitions here. The argument can be made they did not DIRECTLY state there are 16 classes in the game. To my knowledge this is a community contention only.

 

I could be wrong naturally. I am open to posts from Bioware that state there are 16 classes if anyone has them.

 

If they meant different designs within the class, then the term used would have been fundamentally different spec designs and not fundamentally different class designs. The choice made at level 10 would have been advanced spec and not advanced CLASS.

[LordArtemis]

According to the actual site, and every other site, theres 4 classes on each faction, not 8 or 16. That is what im going off, unless im told different from a post that isnt older then a year, that is what ill stand by.

 

And as far as I am aware...and that doesn't mean it's not out there...Bioware has not stated there are 16 classes in the game as far as I can tell.

 

All posts I find so far indicate that they feel the AC choice is important and should not be trivial (something they came up with after the uproar for removing AC change) but all descriptions of ACs so far that I have found describe them as either class refinements or playstyle choices....not individual classes in their own right.

 

I think I remember one quote from DE that stated an AC is ALMOST like a new class, as it has a very different feel...I'll see if I can find that.

[Ratajack]

According to the actual site, and every other site, theres 4 classes on each faction, not 8 or 16. That is what im going off, unless im told different from a post that isnt older then a year, that is what ill stand by.

 

Sticking your head in the sand or putting your fingers in your ears going "NAHNAHNAHNAHNAH" doesn't change the facts.

[PeterTLJr]

Sticking your head in the sand or putting your fingers in your ears going "NAHNAHNAHNAHNAH" doesn't change the facts.

 

cool story.

[LordArtemis]

If they meant different designs within the class, then the term used would have been fundamentally different spec designs and not fundamentally different class designs. The choice made at level 10 would have been advanced spec and not advanced CLASS.

 

Now wait a moment Ratajack. Your taking the quote verbatimn. You can't do that without conceding that it could have had other meanings since the argument is made in this thread by con people that the MOST RECENT quote indicating clearly they are discussing AC change and it is likely to happen is not what they meant. The contention is made that it is doublespeak or lip service. It has also been made clear, based on developer comments that the ACs were NOT designed as individual classes nor presented that way, and the contention that they were different classes was INFERRED after being pressed about removing AC change.

 

This is not saying YOU are making the contention that they meant something different in that recent quote...you may not have that view. To be honest Ive lost track as to who has taken that view in this thread. You are of course speaking to whether or not AC is a class.

 

I think you are right. I am simply stating that if we infer other meanings one has to do so with this one as well to be fair.

Edited June 11, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Khevar]

those are just trees, not specs.

I have to ask, what do you expect to accomplish by this line of argument?

 

We've established that a Vanguard and a Commando are different. In a thread that is largely devoted to whether or not AC respec is something that belongs in a game, you're focusing on semantics. Class. Tree. Spec.

 

Whatever you call it, you currently CANNOT change from a Vanguard to a Commando.

 

If you think you should be able to, make an argument as to why this would be a good thing, and beneficial for the game. The fact that you keep arguing about nomenclature speaks as to a lack of a REASON as to why you want this.

[PeterTLJr]

I have to ask, what do you expect to accomplish by this line of argument?

 

We've established that a Vanguard and a Commando are different. In a thread that is largely devoted to whether or not AC respec is something that belongs in a game, you're focusing on semantics. Class. Tree. Spec.

 

Whatever you call it, you currently CANNOT change from a Vanguard to a Commando.

 

If you think you should be able to, make an argument as to why this would be a good thing, and beneficial for the game. The fact that you keep arguing about nomenclature speaks as to a lack of a REASON as to why you want this.

 

Fair enough, but in my defense I was trying to explain why it would benefit the game until others started comparing other games then the whole argument broke if ACs were there own classes or not.

 

Getting back on topic, I think AC swapping would be great for the game, with some restrictions. That way it keeps it fair without making it P2W or having a FOTM. We have all put time into our characters, some of us are unhappy with them. In other games its simple, reroll. But in this game theres another option, to switch AC which isnt a stretch. Its not like switching classes. You still get your default abilities from selecting your class you picked at 1 then unique abilities for picking your AC, that being said you lose the unique abilities from picking that AC to gain different unique abilities for picking the other AC but all within the same base class.

 

Sorry, I forgot to answer your first question. I wasnt hoping to accomplish anything, I was just explaining my point of view, as well as taking in others. I like this subject, and wanted to hear more opinions is all.

Edited June 11, 2013 by PeterTLJr

[LordArtemis]

I wanted to make it clear that IMO I think the Advanced Class is unique enough to be considered a different class. Though perhaps not designed that way, nor directly presented that way (debatable) I think the playing style is different enough that all arguments to this point are moot...In my eyes they are unique enough to be considered a class.

 

That does not mean I am against the early change, or even the late change, though I'm not wild about the late change idea. Early change, however, is something they allowed in the past and have indicated they will probably add back in soon. Hopefully it will be early on IMO.

 

I think it's fine to correct a mistake in the choice. I'm not sure it's ok to allow it in the late game.

 

I would also add that they could have saved quite a bit of confusion if they had called this an advanced ROLE, which is probably how it was designed. Poorly named, much like calling alignment "light or dark side" instead of "light or dark alignment".

 

So you would have had Class, Advanced Role and Spec within that advanced role.

Edited June 11, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Jeweledleah]

Is a vanguard a class? YES

 

Is a commando a class? YES

 

Are they the same class? NO, they are most definitely not.

 

Changing from a vanguard to a commando is NOT simply changing spec. It is changing class. That is the latest word from the devs and they have not once said anything to the contrary since that quote. If you want to tell the devs that they are wrong just because you want to change your class, then be my guest.

 

and yet again, you are conveniently forgetting the more important distinction that is somewhat unique to this game.

 

STORY.

 

this game is extremely character centric, story centric.

 

this is why changing between stories let alone factions is not even in the same ballpark as changing within the same story, but different specializations. call them classes if you want, but just like orange and apple is not the same fruit - comparing vanguard and jugg is not even close to the same as comparing jugg and marauder.

 

aka - your argument is flawed. yet again.

[Khevar]

Fair enough, but in my defense I was trying to explain why it would benefit the game until others started comparing other games then the whole argument broke if ACs were there own classes or not.

 

Getting back on topic, I think AC swapping would be great for the game, with some restrictions. That way it keeps it fair without making it P2W or having a FOTM. We have all put time into our characters, some of us are unhappy with them. In other games its simple, reroll. But in this game theres another option, to switch AC which isnt a stretch. Its not like switching classes. You still get your default abilities from selecting your class you picked at 1 then unique abilities for picking your AC, that being said you lose the unique abilities from picking that AC to gain different unique abilities for picking the other AC but all within the same base class.

 

Sorry, I forgot to answer your first question. I wasnt hoping to accomplish anything, I was just explaining my point of view, as well as taking in others. I like this subject, and wanted to hear more opinions is all.

Thank you.

 

One point that others have made, which I feel bears repeating here, is the idea of the "slippery slope"

 

Let's say we come to an accord on what would be an adequate restriction for AC swap to be implemented. Immediately following that implementation would be people arguing that the stipulated restrictions were too much and should be relaxed. This is a nature of an internet forum and MMOs.

 

Now, being an altoholic, I find the leveling process too easy to require an AC swap. Such a thing would be of no benefit for me. For this reason, I try to not argue too hard against the AC swap, because it comes from a biased position (i.e. "I don't need one").

 

However, I believe that most people would agree that unrestricted AC swapping has many downsides. Some would say that the moment you relax the restriction of "can't swap" to "sometimes swap", more people will pile on that and argue in favor of "sometimes more frequently swap", eventually landing on "swap anytime"

Edited June 11, 2013 by Khevar

[PeterTLJr]

Thank you.

 

One point that others have made, which I feel bears repeating here, is the idea of the "slippery slope"

 

Let's say we come to an accord on what would be an adequate restriction for AC swap to be implemented. Immediately following that implementation would be people arguing that the stipulated restrictions were too much and should be relaxed. This is a nature of an internet forum and MMOs.

 

Now, being an altoholic, I find the leveling process too easy to require an AC swap. Such a thing would be of no benefit for me. For this reason, I try to not argue too hard against the AC swap, because it comes from a biased position (i.e. "I don't need one").

 

However, I believe that most people would agree that unrestricted AC swapping has many downsides. Some would say that the moment you relax the restriction of "can't swap" to "sometimes swap", more people will pile on that and argue in favor of "sometimes more frequently swap", eventually landing on "swap anytime"

 

I see, and I am too an "altoholic" so I would have no problem rerolling, the only thing that drives me away from it is the fact that all my hard work and fancy things I have on one character wouldnt be on my new one. And I just have a hard time seeing why its a big deal to allow atleast 1 AC change per character so people can find joy in a character they spent time in already. There has been no hard statements on if AC swaps will happen or not, so thats why Im fighting for it right now.

[LordArtemis]

I see, and I am too an "altoholic" so I would have no problem rerolling, the only thing that drives me away from it is the fact that all my hard work and fancy things I have on one character wouldnt be on my new one. And I just have a hard time seeing why its a big deal to allow atleast 1 AC change per character so people can find joy in a character they spent time in already. There has been no hard statements on if AC swaps will happen or not, so thats why Im fighting for it right now.

 

Well that depends on what you consider a "solid" statement.

 

There is the statement made by Bioware in the Duffy interview shortly after the F2P launch in which they state they have talking seriously about allowing AC change recently and they feel it is going to happen. They do not think faction change will happen any time soon however.

[PeterTLJr]

Well that depends on what you consider a "solid" statement.

 

There is the statement made by Bioware in the Duffy interview shortly after the F2P launch in which they state they have talking seriously about allowing AC change recently and they feel it is going to happen. They do not think faction change will happen any time soon however.

 

My guess is they are waiting and paying attention to these forums about it and seeing if it'll be good or bad.

[branmakmuffin]

Juggernaut vs Marauder/Guardian vs Sentinel

[...]

 

Those are just the first few that came to mind. Those also do not even begin to include the different rotations, etc. that each class uses.

You seem to think that your list of which AC has what makes some points. All it leads to is "Yeah, so?"

[Jeweledleah]

Thank you.

 

One point that others have made, which I feel bears repeating here, is the idea of the "slippery slope"

 

Let's say we come to an accord on what would be an adequate restriction for AC swap to be implemented. Immediately following that implementation would be people arguing that the stipulated restrictions were too much and should be relaxed. This is a nature of an internet forum and MMOs.

 

Now, being an altoholic, I find the leveling process too easy to require an AC swap. Such a thing would be of no benefit for me. For this reason, I try to not argue too hard against the AC swap, because it comes from a biased position (i.e. "I don't need one").

 

However, I believe that most people would agree that unrestricted AC swapping has many downsides. Some would say that the moment you relax the restriction of "can't swap" to "sometimes swap", more people will pile on that and argue in favor of "sometimes more frequently swap", eventually landing on "swap anytime"

 

I'm basically in a similar boat. I currently have 14 characters. with a minimum of one per each advanced specs, some of the favorites - twice. leveling a new character is NOT an issue for me. and I don't see myself changing ac even if it gets implemented EVEN on my shadow (whom I'm thinking of maybe having another go, probably change her appearance completely and play her differently) but just because its not particularly useful for me is no reason to deny it to others.

 

yes we should be careful with a slippery slope, especially since bioware have shown themselves capable of going down that path, however... some things are simply not feasible (like changing from one story to the other, they can't/won't even implement gender change within the same story due to multitude of flags, changing stories is out of the question)

 

but the thing about advanced class is that for the most part - its pretty arbitrary. it changes your playstyle, but so does using a different skill tree. its technically a different class because it comes with different talents, but its the same story, the same basic class, using the same main stat and majority of the secondary stats (in fact - I'd have easier time switching from dps operative to sniper, then I would switching from dps operative to healing one - gearwise) and with exception of warriors/knights - same armor rating. even some of the same shared abilities (orbital strike and death from above being personal favorites)

 

so the only reason I'm pro limitations, including it not being available at max level is BECAUSE of possibility of a slippery slope. in my opinion at least, it should be about second chances, not min maxing and/or chasing FOTM

Edited June 11, 2013 by Jeweledleah

[gorstram]

I don't see this discussed. What happens to the gear that you're wearing? Commando switches to a vanguard and they need to replace their assault rifle, but what if a Jugg switches to a mara? Their armor immediately goes red since they can't wear heavy armor.

 

These are the things they'll have to consider when creating this change. I see this creating some serious gripe threads about people shelling out the cash and then going, "BUT WHAT ABOUT MY GEAR?!"

[Jeweledleah]

I don't see this discussed. What happens to the gear that you're wearing? Commando switches to a vanguard and they need to replace their assault rifle, but what if a Jugg switches to a mara? Their armor immediately goes red since they can't wear heavy armor.

 

These are the things they'll have to consider when creating this change. I see this creating some serious gripe threads about people shelling out the cash and then going, "BUT WHAT ABOUT MY GEAR?!"

 

if they are wearing adoptive armor - it changes rating automatically.

 

if they are wearing non-adoptive armor - they can still rip out and reuse the mods.

 

still, there could be a warning telling people that switching their AC's means different type of armor - mandatory warning before hitting ok. if they don't read it and come back raging? call me mean, but i'd just point and laugh.

[PeterTLJr]

I don't see this discussed. What happens to the gear that you're wearing? Commando switches to a vanguard and they need to replace their assault rifle, but what if a Jugg switches to a mara? Their armor immediately goes red since they can't wear heavy armor.

 

These are the things they'll have to consider when creating this change. I see this creating some serious gripe threads about people shelling out the cash and then going, "BUT WHAT ABOUT MY GEAR?!"

 

The gear shouldnt affect this decision. If you change AC, you know your going to have to get new gear, well in some cases.

 

And I agree, bringing in this feature might cause some people to QQ on forums, I doubt itll be any worse then people complaining about their AC now.

Edited June 11, 2013 by PeterTLJr

[branmakmuffin]

The gear shouldnt affect this decision. If you change AC, you know your going to have to get new gear, well in some cases.

 

And I agree, bringing in this feature might cause some people to QQ on forums, I doubt itll be any worse then people complaining about their AC now.

Plus no matter what is allowed or disallowed in the game, people will QQ. Thus "level of QQing" should never be a consideration regarding what changes to make (or not to make) to the game.

[Ratajack]

and yet again, you are conveniently forgetting the more important distinction that is somewhat unique to this game.

 

STORY.

 

this game is extremely character centric, story centric.

 

this is why changing between stories let alone factions is not even in the same ballpark as changing within the same story, but different specializations. call them classes if you want, but just like orange and apple is not the same fruit - comparing vanguard and jugg is not even close to the same as comparing jugg and marauder.

 

aka - your argument is flawed. yet again.

 

And yet again, you are ignoring a basic fact. That changing from a vanguard to a commando is changing CLASS.

 

They may share the same story, but they are different classes.

 

AKA-your argument is flawed, yet again.