ETA on Advanced Class change?

[branmakmuffin]

Yeah I agree, and it's nonsense too. I've played other MMOs where you started with a base class and then picked your spec class after you finished a starter area. It was this way in DAoC, and it was a permanent choice, irrevocable, and if you wanted a different spec class.. then you rolled a new character...end of discussion.

Goodness knows nothing about an MMO can ever be changed. TOR itself has not changed one little tiny bit since it launched, for example.

[LordArtemis]

Again, here is the problem with quoting DE when it comes to establishing how Bioware viewed classes and advanced classes in the beginning.

 

For example, he said this....

 

Each of the advanced classes is a full, flexible class with various trees that allow specialization.

 

but he also said this...

Inquisitor is your class, that is the class you have for the entire storyline. Your advanced class offers you a specialized set of ability trees and determines the weapon you use.

 

and this....

At one time we wanted 16 classes to provide better balance in combat, but in the end the game was designed with only 8 classes to choose from.

 

Not to mention comments like....

 

....every class has their own story

...but your class is defined by your individual story

...8 class choices that define your game experience

 

Confusing. It seems the conversation he was having determined how HE viewed ACs...he was rather loosy goosy about it, they all were IMO.

 

This is exactly why just about anything DE said, IMO, about the game should be dismissed at this point. He was simply offering his opinion, which seemed to change quite often. Many of them did.

 

AND THIS....from Georg Zoeller just makes it more confusing.

[W]e wanted to ensure that we had the flexibility to support several play-styles within each of these eight classes. So we built Advanced Classes into the game from the ground up to provide us with the ability to create and support different gameplay and roles inside each class.

Edited November 23, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Ratajack]

Goodness knows nothing about an MMO can ever be changed. TOR itself has not changed one little tiny bit since it launched, for example.

 

Goodness knows that the simple fact that something can be changed means that it MUST be changed.

[branmakmuffin]

Goodness knows that the simple fact that something can be changed means that it MUST be changed.

Goodness knows even more that no one is suggesting AC change be added just because it can. And goodness knows most that "It's never been this way before" is not a good enough reason to not do something.

Edited November 23, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[ZeroPlus]

How does a trooper go from 22 abilities without an AC but "lose those" abilities when he chooses his AC as vanguard? Are you saying that a vanguard has different skills than a trooper or a commando? That would lead me to believe that they were <GASP> DIFFERENT CLASSES, not the same class. That is, of course, unless I had a vested interest in them being seen as the same class, such as the desire to change from one class to another.

 

Hmmm... I see you missed the point. Let me try and explain it better...

At 55 the Trooper Vanguard has 22 abilities that belong to the BASE CLASS and only about 15 that belong to the ADVANCED CLASS. Notice how the Bounty Hunter (the mirror of the Trooper) Mercenary has those same 22 abilities in the BASE CLASS and only about 17 that belongs to the ADVANCED CLASS.

 

Are they different? Yes they are different.

However, if you are basing your argumente on this statement of yours: "Are you saying that a vanguard has different skills than a trooper or a commando? That would lead me to believe that they were <GASP> DIFFERENT CLASSES, not the same class.", then let me pick that apart for you.

First of all, I'm not saying that a Vanguard has different skills than a Trooper or a Commando. What I am saying is that the Vanguard and the Commando have 22 skills that are EXACTLY THE SAME because they are both Troopers. They only differ in about 15 - 17 skills depending on the Skill Tree they are using.

Second of all, are you trying to state that just because some skills are different, that it make for a different class? If so then a Tactics Vanguard is a different Class from an Assault Vanguard? Is that what you are saying? (OR am I just twisting your words they way you enjoy doing?)

 

The point I was making is that the Advanced Classes share the same foundation. They are essentially the base class with a specialization that sets them apart from the other specialization in some way.

 

I'm not trying to convince you of that. It is a plain fact. You may try and deny it all you want; you may say that others are grabbing onto that as the basis for wanting to be able to change ACs; the fact of the matter is that at the end of the day, all the advanced classes are in essence just a specialization of the base class. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

Being able to change your advanced class is as game breaking as being able to reset your skill points.

In other words it breaks nothing! No matter how much doom and gloom you and others post, it breaks nothing.

Players won't suddenly become overpowered because they were able to switch from Sentinel to Guardian.

Raids aren't suddenly going to start to fail because Jack the Tactics Vanguard is now Jack the Combat Medic Commando.

Your enjoyment of the game will not be affected in any way by someone else being able to switch their AC. However, I can guarantee you one thing, it will have an effect on the enjoyment of the game for the person who now can switch their AC.

 

At the end of the day, it isn't your decision to make or even influence. Just as it isn't my decision to make or influence either. Bioware will do it if they want to and won't if they don't.

 

Personally I have a feeling that they will allow the switching of ACs in another year or two's time. Why? Because the game will have matured enough for it to happen by then and because they will actually have had the time to implement it by then. Will it kill the game/end the world/prevent you from enjoying the game? No, not at all.

[Andryah]

Again, here is the problem with quoting DE when it comes to establishing how Bioware viewed classes and advanced classes in the beginning.

 

For example, he said this....

 

Each of the advanced classes is a full, flexible class with various trees that allow specialization.

 

but he also said this...

Inquisitor is your class, that is the class you have for the entire storyline. Your advanced class offers you a specialized set of ability trees and determines the weapon you use.

 

and this....

At one time we wanted 16 classes to provide better balance in combat, but in the end the game was designed with only 8 classes to choose from.

 

AND THIS....

[W]e wanted to ensure that we had the flexibility to support several play-styles within each of these eight classes. So we built Advanced Classes into the game from the ground up to provide us with the ability to create and support different gameplay and roles inside each class.

 

Not to mention comments like....

 

....every class has their own story

...but your class is defined by your individual story

...8 class choices that define your game experience

 

Confusing. It seems the conversation he was having determined how HE viewed ACs...he was rather loosy goosy about it, they all were IMO.

 

This is exactly why just about anything DE said, IMO, about the game should be dismissed at this point. He was simply offering his opinion, which seemed to change quite often. Many of them did.

 

If you try to make sense of all of this as design philosophy outside the context of "marketing speak", it's confusing. If however you read it in the context of marketing the appeal of the game to a broad player base... it's really not confusing at all IMO.

 

Their design philosophy clearly (at least to me) was to use ACs as a methodology to enable players to make choices in game play style, with the understanding that those choices were permanent in nature. The use of a base class ahead of AC choice was both practical and made for good lead-in to an AC choice. I remember when I rolled my first few characters.... I looked forward to level 10 and the chance to make a choice.. a choice that would permanently determine the core play style and progression of my characters. The choice was mine to make, but it also had consequences, and there was no do-over other then to re-roll. I liked it and still do.

[Andryah]

Personally I have a feeling that they will allow the switching of ACs in another year or two's time. Why? Because the game will have matured enough for it to happen by then and because they will actually have had the time to implement it by then. Will it kill the game/end the world/prevent you from enjoying the game? No, not at all.

 

Could be. But really, by that point in time.. it won't make any real difference, so the compelling reasons to do it also won't really be there.

 

If they do decide to do it.. it should be harsh and have consequences. Why? Because one of the things about MMOs is that player choices should have consequences. This desire to have infinite and perpetual do-overs without consequences in MMOs is a bad artifact of the gen-x generation IMO.

[branmakmuffin]

Could be. But really, by that point in time.. it won't make any real difference, so the compelling reasons to do it also won't really be there.

 

If they do decide to do it.. it should be harsh and have consequences. Why? Because one of the things about MMOs is that player choices should have consequences. This desire to have infinite and perpetual do-overs without consequences in MMOs is a bad artifact of the gen-x generation IMO.

"Harsh and consequential" do not make for good mass market entertainment, which is what MMOs are. It'll probably cost a pretty penny in CCs, which is as harsh and consequential as it needs to be.

 

It's just a game. No need to be petty.

[Ratajack]

Again, here is the problem with quoting DE when it comes to establishing how Bioware viewed classes and advanced classes in the beginning.

 

For example, he said this....

 

Each of the advanced classes is a full, flexible class with various trees that allow specialization.

 

but he also said this...

Inquisitor is your class, that is the class you have for the entire storyline. Your advanced class offers you a specialized set of ability trees and determines the weapon you use.

 

and this....

At one time we wanted 16 classes to provide better balance in combat, but in the end the game was designed with only 8 classes to choose from.

 

AND THIS....

[W]e wanted to ensure that we had the flexibility to support several play-styles within each of these eight classes. So we built Advanced Classes into the game from the ground up to provide us with the ability to create and support different gameplay and roles inside each class.

 

Not to mention comments like....

 

....every class has their own story

...but your class is defined by your individual story

...8 class choices that define your game experience

 

Confusing. It seems the conversation he was having determined how HE viewed ACs...he was rather loosy goosy about it, they all were IMO.

 

This is exactly why just about anything DE said, IMO, about the game should be dismissed at this point. He was simply offering his opinion, which seemed to change quite often. Many of them did.

 

The problem is that those statements from DE remain the last word from the devs on AC's being different classes. I'm also noticing that those quotes do not have dates attached to them, so I wonder if they are in the actual chronological order in which those statements were made. It's very possible that the last statement from DE was the first one that you listed and that makes a HUGE difference. As has been noted by others, the devs can change their minds at any time. The latter statements from DE in your post could very well have been made early in the development, after which the devs changed their minds (views) and therefore issued the "final" statement, the one you listed first.

 

I'm not saying that this is what happened, but if those statements you list are not in the correct chronological order, it muddies the waters. Correct chronological order, on the other hand, leads to a clearer picture.

 

This is why I agree with you in that I wold like to see the devs should pop their heads into this thread and make a definitive statement on the AC's and whether or not they are classes or specs. I would also like to see a more definitive statement as to whether they are working on, or even still considering, allowing AC (class) changes or if they have decided to hold to the stance they took before launch and not allow AC (class) changing.

[Andryah]

"Harsh and consequential" do not make for good mass market entertainment, which is what MMOs are. It'll probably cost a pretty penny in CCs, which is as harsh and consequential as it needs to be.

 

My idea of harsh and with consequences is that it costs the player something to do it (either lots of credits or some CC) and it's one way, one time, per character.

 

What I don't want to see is unlimited AC changes per character for 10K credits a pop. What's the point in ACs if that's the way you want to play an MMO? Might as well just play Hello Kitty Online.

 

And contrary to some of the rehtoric around here... it's not good for the player community either... "geee... wonder what AC Billy is rolling with today? Better check before we /invite him because he really sucks when he is rolling AC-X". Or... "hey nub.. if you want to group with us you better respect to AC-Y Nao!"

Edited November 23, 2013 by Andryah

[Ratajack]

Hmmm... I see you missed the point. Let me try and explain it better...

At 55 the Trooper Vanguard has 22 abilities that belong to the BASE CLASS and only about 15 that belong to the ADVANCED CLASS. Notice how the Bounty Hunter (the mirror of the Trooper) Mercenary has those same 22 abilities in the BASE CLASS and only about 17 that belongs to the ADVANCED CLASS.

 

Are they different? Yes they are different.

However, if you are basing your argumente on this statement of yours: "Are you saying that a vanguard has different skills than a trooper or a commando? That would lead me to believe that they were <GASP> DIFFERENT CLASSES, not the same class.", then let me pick that apart for you.

First of all, I'm not saying that a Vanguard has different skills than a Trooper or a Commando. What I am saying is that the Vanguard and the Commando have 22 skills that are EXACTLY THE SAME because they are both Troopers. They only differ in about 15 - 17 skills depending on the Skill Tree they are using.

Second of all, are you trying to state that just because some skills are different, that it make for a different class? If so then a Tactics Vanguard is a different Class from an Assault Vanguard? Is that what you are saying? (OR am I just twisting your words they way you enjoy doing?)

 

The point I was making is that the Advanced Classes share the same foundation. They are essentially the base class with a specialization that sets them apart from the other specialization in some way.

 

I'm not trying to convince you of that. It is a plain fact. You may try and deny it all you want; you may say that others are grabbing onto that as the basis for wanting to be able to change ACs; the fact of the matter is that at the end of the day, all the advanced classes are in essence just a specialization of the base class. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

A Navy seal, submariner and Navy pilot all share the same foundation. They are all Navy personnel and went through the same boot camp.

 

By your logic, that submariner would be able to hop in an F-14 tomorrow and go to TOP GUN, as submariner and pilot are only a specializations and NOT a jobs/classes unto themselves. But, wait...it doesn't work that way. Sure, that submariner can request to be a pilot, but he still needs to start at ground zero. He is not simply handed his pilot's wings just because he can throw a little money at the Department of the Navy. He has to EARN them.

 

Much like the players who wants to play a powertech after leveling a mercenary should level that powertech.

[LordArtemis]

The problem is that those statements from DE remain the last word from the devs on AC's being different classes. I'm also noticing that those quotes do not have dates attached to them, so I wonder if they are in the actual chronological order in which those statements were made. It's very possible that the last statement from DE was the first one that you listed and that makes a HUGE difference. As has been noted by others, the devs can change their minds at any time. The latter statements from DE in your post could very well have been made early in the development, after which the devs changed their minds (views) and therefore issued the "final" statement, the one you listed first.

 

I'm not saying that this is what happened, but if those statements you list are not in the correct chronological order, it muddies the waters. Correct chronological order, on the other hand, leads to a clearer picture.

 

This is why I agree with you in that I wold like to see the devs should pop their heads into this thread and make a definitive statement on the AC's and whether or not they are classes or specs. I would also like to see a more definitive statement as to whether they are working on, or even still considering, allowing AC (class) changes or if they have decided to hold to the stance they took before launch and not allow AC (class) changing.

 

I can find out the chronilogical order if you like. I believe the statement from Zoeller is the most recent in that list.

 

I certainly hope they decided against AC change. If not, I hope they at least limit it's impact on the game if allowed.

 

Again, if this is something the masses want I would not campaign against it. Majority rules.

[branmakmuffin]

I can find out the chronilogical order if you like. I believe the statement from Zoeller is the most recent in that list.

 

I certainly hope they decided against AC change. If not, I hope they at least limit it's impact on the game if allowed.

Here is its negative impact on the game:

 

 

Would you like to see it again?

Edited November 23, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Ratajack]

I can find out the chronilogical order if you like. I believe the statement from Zoeller is the most recent in that list.

 

I certainly hope they decided against AC change. If not, I hope they at least limit it's impact on the game if allowed.

 

Again, if this is something the masses want I would not campaign against it. Majority rules.

 

I'd be very interested to see those statements in their chronological order, even if that order only muddies things further.

 

Even if they attempt to implement AC changes in a limited fashion, it would likely be no time at all before the forums were full of people clamoring for the removal of those limitations. To see that, one has only to look at the numerous threads clamoring for the current limitations on AC changes to be removed.

 

Since the forums only represent a very minor portion of the player base as a whole, who can know what the majority wants? There is not even a clear majority in this thread.

[ZeroPlus]

A Navy seal, submariner and Navy pilot all share the same foundation. They are all Navy personnel and went through the same boot camp.

 

By your logic, that submariner would be able to hop in an F-14 tomorrow and go to TOP GUN, as submariner and pilot are only a specializations and NOT a jobs/classes unto themselves. But, wait...it doesn't work that way. Sure, that submariner can request to be a pilot, but he still needs to start at ground zero. He is not simply handed his pilot's wings just because he can throw a little money at the Department of the Navy. He has to EARN them.

 

Much like the players who wants to play a powertech after leveling a mercenary should level that powertech.

 

LOL! You did not just go there, did you?

 

You really believe that a Navy Seal, Navy Submariner and Navy pilot went through the same boot camp? As an ex-marine myself, I can definetely tell you that at least in my country that isn't the case. From what I know of the other navies I had contact with, it isn't the case in those countries either.

 

But hey, let's continue to confuse real life with a game some more shall we? Next you will be complaining that vehicles in game should not just pop out of the air, we should have to park them somewhere, fuel them up every now and then and once a year take them into the shop for repairs. Right?

 

You're right on one point in your post though. Right now, the only solution for a player who wants to play a powertech after leveling a mercenary is to level a powertech.

 

Who knows what his/her solution will be in a year or two's time...

[branmakmuffin]

There is not even a clear majority in this thread.

That's you trying to spin a "loss" into a "tie."

[Ratajack]

That's you trying to spin a "loss" into a "tie."

 

By all means, prove my "loss".

 

Go back through the thread and count each individual poster on both sides, then post the results. .

 

You won't, though, as that might require effort, and it is easier for you to simply continue to claim the majority wants class changes.

 

BTW, I'm not the one claiming a clear majority, so the onus is on YOU to provide proof, not me. Until such time as you provide proof by posting the numbers of unique posters on both sides of this debate, you are simply talking out of an orifice other than your mouth.

[branmakmuffin]

By all means, prove my "loss".

 

Go back through the thread and count each individual poster on both sides, then post the results. .

 

You won't, though

Neither are you.

[Ratajack]

Neither are you.

 

But I am not the one claiming a "clear majority", am I? Therefore, as I said, the onus is on you, not me.

[branmakmuffin]

But I am not the one claiming a "clear majority", am I? Therefore, as I said, the onus is on you, not me.

You're claiming a toss-up. I also did not use the phrase "clear majority."

Edited November 24, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Ratajack]

You're claiming a toss-up. I also did not use the phrase "clear majority."

 

You're claiming that I am spinning a "loss" into a "tie" in response to my statement that there isn't even a clear majority in this thread. In order for me to have a "loss" to spin into a "tie", there would have to be a clear majority that want to see class changes implemented. Ergo, you are claiming that there is a clear majority that wants class changes.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Ratajack

[Anzel]

I can't wait to switch a couple of my toons. I spent a lot of time working on them and now they got nerfed. It will be much more convenient if I can just swap ACs whenever the next FOTM comes around. I'm really looking forward to this. I'm so sick of them messing with the "balance" every time they deploy code. This is going to be such a great change.

[LordArtemis]

Here is its negative impact on the game:

 

 

Would you like to see it again?

 

If it was accurate I would. But since it is just your opinion, I think I will keep mine.

[Marb]

A variation of removing advanced classes would be to ingrain the advanced class into the skill tree itself, becoming specialization templates that classes choose from and respec out of at will, just like the skill tree currently functions, but without spending points each level.

 

Something like how specializations work in wow, no skill trees, you just choose your ability template. Instead of choosing an advanced class and then a skill tree at level 10 you choose your "specialization". For example a Knight would have these specializations to choose from: Defense, Vigilance, Watchmen, Combat, Focus (shared specs would be renamed to differentiate them). If you choose Vigilance, you gain heavy armor proficiency and your ability/skill template changes. If you respec and choose Watchman you lose heavy armor proficiency, gain dual wield proficiency, and your skill/ability template changes to that of a Watchman.

 

Respec removes spec and weapon/armor proficiency and all spec skills and abilities, returning you to the blank slate Knight until you choose another specialization. Ability/skill templates would be strictly defined by their chosen specialization (Vigilance spec doesn't have force camo, Watchman spec doesn't have saber reflect etc).

 

Then there would be 4 classes with 6 specs each, instead of 8 classes with 3 skill trees each.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Marb

[MajikMyst]

Source?

 

 

Yeah, definitely trolling. Noone can be THAT delusional, so you are obviously saying this on purpose. Not going to fall for this anymore, sorry.

 

As said before.. The beta forums do not exist.. There have been countless people from the beta that have testified to this topic.. If you aren't going to read this thread and the threads before it then don't come in here and cry about a source.. This topic has been going on for over 2 years.. A lot longer than you have been playing the game..

 

Either say something of value or take it else where.. Nobody here is delusional.. You just don't seem to want to discuss facts and whenever someone disagrees with you, you call them a troll.. Do you have anything to add to the topic or are you just going to sit there and cry for a source when you are perfectly capable to do the reading and research your self..

 

Anything I say is a well known fact.. A fact to anyone that has been here since the beta... If that isn't you, then that is your problem..

 

Nobody can quote a forum that doesn't exist.. But there is enough people that were around during this time that have either quoted them when they did exist or still remember the quotes.. I believe Lord just linked some of those old quotes.. Feel free for to worship the ground he walks on for doing your research..

 

Or you could just live with what the game says.. I mean.. Are you going to call me a troll over what the game says.. Do I need a source for that too?? How exactly do I source the game saying on 4 separate occasions, 2 text and 2 voice, that our choice of AC is permanent???

 

Trust me.. I am not the one trolling here..

Edited November 24, 2013 by MajikMyst