The BattleZone Reboot Round 1 Match 08: Quinlan Vos vs. Savage Opress

[Beniboybling]

Koon has only some training in ataru.... Vos training full in ataru and has much greater skill and thanks to makashi training precision as well while employing his ataru... if Koon managed to dodge and scratch Savage ..... Vos severes the leg completely as he has greater skill in that particular tactic than koon does.....

 

 

Also to reiterate the difference is Soresu does not repeat DOES NOT actively try to weaken an opponent it waits for the opponent to do so to themselves, hitting the leg to weaken savage is not a soresu tactic waiting for it to give way of its own accord would be but he wasn't waiting he was active, activity or aggression suggest ataru from obi-wans arsenal not soresu.

 

Also dancing between the 2 opponents allowed him to do the one neccissary thing for ataru to stay in motion had he not injured savage he would have lost do to exhaustion to Maul.

 

Again see above for the full thing.

 

 

Edit: ok off to work.... and again don't forget that in addition to all this we still aren't even taking Vos's force lightning into account like I said there are a lot of ways for Vos to take control of this fight brute strength will not be enough to win off of.

That's a rather large assumption I would say. Its like saying that someone with more skill with a blaster could shoot through ten tons of durasteel better than someone who didn't. In some departments it doesn't matter how much skill you have with something, nothing is going to change. Likewise I highly doubt Vos is going to be chopping off Savage's feet like a magic man, even Kenobi could score any lightsaber cuts against Savage and he's an Ataru master. In fact I think Savage dodged a leg attack with a jump. We should also remember that Savage's skills rapidly improve with every battle. At first he couldn't even touch Count Dooku, next he kills a Jedi Council Member and before you know it his tag-teaming with Maul against Darth Sidious. All within what, weeks? Months? So while Koon may have been able to score a hit at that stage, there is no telling what would happen even a couple of months on.

 

And concerning Force lightning, I doubt it's anywhere near as powerful as the kind Dooku can dish out. And even then Savage was only momentarily stunned and kept getting up and fighting back. I doubt the weak lightning Vos can produce will even stop Savage in his tracks and he'll likely power through it like Maul did, and with similar results.

 

Lets also not forget that his armour provides a measure of protection from such attacks.

[Aurbere]

So while Koon may have been able to score a hit at that stage, there is no telling what would happen even a couple of months on.

 

The Savage vs. Plo Koon battle occurs while Maul still has his robotic legs. So it takes place some time before they join the Death Watch.

 

I don't know how much Savage could have improved in that time frame, but I don't think it was a vast improvement.

[Beniboybling]

The Savage vs. Plo Koon battle occurs while Maul still has his robotic legs. So it takes place some time before they join the Death Watch.

 

I don't know how much Savage could have improved in that time frame, but I don't think it was a vast improvement.

Well given the massive leap he seems to take from vs Dooku to vs Gallia I'd suggest that the improvement is notable. Remember that Savage likely learned primarily through battle, with every duel he grew better.

[Aurbere]

Well given the massive leap he seems to take from vs Dooku to vs Gallia I'd suggest that the improvement is notable. Remember that Savage likely learned primarily through battle, with every duel he grew better.

 

Well Gallia isn't that special in my opinion, but killing a Jedi Council member is no small feat (note that this was a short time after his duel with Plo Koon).

 

Having done some quick research, Savage's next duel with a Jedi resulted in him (Savage) being frozen in carbonite (ala Cloud City level in TFU ). Then we get to Savage vs. Gallia. So judging from the information at hand, I don't think Savage greatly improved in between his battles with Plo Koon and Gallia.

 

I also don't think that using Savage vs. Sidious is proper evidence, all things considered.

[tunewalker]

Well Gallia isn't that special in my opinion, but killing a Jedi Council member is no small feat (note that this was a short time after his duel with Plo Koon).

 

Having done some quick research, Savage's next duel with a Jedi resulted in him (Savage) being frozen in carbonite (ala Cloud City level in TFU ). Then we get to Savage vs. Gallia. So judging from the information at hand, I don't think Savage greatly improved in between his battles with Plo Koon and Gallia.

 

I also don't think that using Savage vs. Sidious is proper evidence, all things considered.

 

Its not remember beni when you said that sidious wouldn't allow himself to be hit by an attack that did nothing to phase him when he is trying to break Maul as it would raise moral.... that is wrong that's exactly why he would.... its a form of torture to give some one false hope right before tearing it away.... it would have been one more thing that would break maul's psyche and knowing sidious he could have there is just to many variables to assume that fight is usable in any way.

 

Also for clarification on ataru being more defensive then Djem so

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_IV:_Ataru

Without ample space to move in the Theed Royal Palace reactor core, Jinn was deprived of the key element in his defense, and thus could only attempt to block Maul's incessant barrage of Juyo strikes.

 

It should be noted a key ELEMENT of his defense not all of his defense... and no mention of it shutting down his offense so ya it wasn't to break the ataru offense only its defense.... now this.

 

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_V:_Shien_/_Djem_So

Unlike Soresu or Ataru, Djem So required the user not only to counterattack, but also to press the assault, combining Force-enhanced strength with powerful blade combinations to overpower and overwhelm an opponent's defenses.

 

So ya Djem so is more offensive then Ataru.

 

It should be noted that Koon clearly saw his rudimentary Ataru's defenses as better then his mastery Djem so defenses for dealing with savages attack type so clearly its not weak against his power attacks but perfect for both and defending and attacking savage as both Koon and Obi-wan using both rudimentary ataru attacks and masterful ataru based attacks broke savages defenses.

 

Now lets move on to specifics of Vos you say he will not be able to evade all of Savage's attacks and just one of Savages power hits will take him down...... lets see who Vos has fought specifically Windu and Sora Bolq they are both Vaapad masters both have strong offense Windu especially is known for having exceptional strength for a jedi..... they are far more skilled then Savage and with the random nature of Vaapad are much more likely to land blows on Vos these are blows he would have had to fully block and he fights about on par with these 2....

 

A 1 handed strike from Savage is likely the same strength as the 2 handed hits from Windu so yes he will be able to directly block multiple one handed hits from savage, but Windu in their sparing matches will hit more of these 2 handed hits then savage will hit with the 1 handed hits.... now lets examine Savages ability to attempt and successfully hit with 2 handed hits and the effect those will have on Vos ..... well the only ones that I have seen him land these types of attacks against are form 5 users and even they dodge some of them the only other time he requires help or a confined space so open location against a Ataru user.... even less likely then the already hard to hit one handed technique. Now what will these 2 handed strikes do if they do hit.... well they will take Vos off his feet and send him far enough away that Savage will have to close the distance during that time Vos can lightning and slow savage down doing just as much damage as savage did with the blow.

 

So recap Vos defense.... dodging majority of attacks especially at the start CHECK

Able to block the very few one handed strikes that will get though with out a problem CHECK

Two-handed strikes almost never used until an opponent is already trapped if used Vos has a way to block, survive and recover possibly in a better position so that's Check and Mate for defenses now for offense.

 

First lets cover why melee attacks often get through when saber attacks get blocked...... awnser isn't speed the awnser is actually much easier its unpredictability, in a saber duel it is far more unpredictable that some one will strike with their body then they will with their saber. Savage has shown himself to be very susceptible to unpredictable attack types... something that Vos's Vaapad will take advantage of. A second weakness is after being dodged he leaves much of his off-hand side open especially his off-hand leg which has been injured by some one taking advantage of this weakness he even lost his off HAND to this weakness this is something melee people take advantage of all the time and ataru masters can and the few ataru user's that fought him have taken advantage of. Now since we showed that Vos has attack types that can break the defenses of Savage how lethal will they be... well again with his precision training in makashi it means if he can break the defense he should be incredibly effective and lethal as the slashes and cuts will be well aimed to hit vital areas to fully cripple or kill savage.

 

So to recap offense:

Savages weakness to unpredictability Vos skilled in Vaapad able to take advantage of that weakness CHECK

Savage weak to attack after a dodge... Vos able to dodge and strike at the same time with ataru thus able to take advantage of that weakness CHECK

Blows being accurate enough to hit vital areas before being exhausted thanks to makashi training..... CHECK and MATE

 

All in all Vos has both the required defensive type and offensive type that has proven to work best against savage dodging and attacking with unpredictable and accurate attacks.

 

I know you will disagree beni and honestly probably just going to agree to disagree with you at this point and let Aurbere decide what argument is better (unless you say something I find blatently wrong or we start covering something other then lightsaber combat... though admittedly its far more difficult for me to analyze force powers and such over lightsaber combat)

 

 

Should be noted I actually don't care for either of these characters my arguments have just been based off of what I have noticed for strengths and weaknesses of the characters saber skills and their known feats and fights and how they won or lost those fights.

[Beniboybling]

Its not remember beni when you said that sidious wouldn't allow himself to be hit by an attack that did nothing to phase him when he is trying to break Maul as it would raise moral.... that is wrong that's exactly why he would.... its a form of torture to give some one false hope right before tearing it away.... it would have been one more thing that would break maul's psyche and knowing sidious he could have there is just to many variables to assume that fight is usable in any way.

 

Also for clarification on ataru being more defensive then Djem so

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_IV:_Ataru

Without ample space to move in the Theed Royal Palace reactor core, Jinn was deprived of the key element in his defense, and thus could only attempt to block Maul's incessant barrage of Juyo strikes.

 

It should be noted a key ELEMENT of his defense not all of his defense... and no mention of it shutting down his offense so ya it wasn't to break the ataru offense only its defense.... now this.

 

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_V:_Shien_/_Djem_So

Unlike Soresu or Ataru, Djem So required the user not only to counterattack, but also to press the assault, combining Force-enhanced strength with powerful blade combinations to overpower and overwhelm an opponent's defenses.

 

So ya Djem so is more offensive then Ataru.

 

It should be noted that Koon clearly saw his rudimentary Ataru's defenses as better then his mastery Djem so defenses for dealing with savages attack type so clearly its not weak against his power attacks but perfect for both and defending and attacking savage as both Koon and Obi-wan using both rudimentary ataru attacks and masterful ataru based attacks broke savages defenses.

 

Now lets move on to specifics of Vos you say he will not be able to evade all of Savage's attacks and just one of Savages power hits will take him down...... lets see who Vos has fought specifically Windu and Sora Bolq they are both Vaapad masters both have strong offense Windu especially is known for having exceptional strength for a jedi..... they are far more skilled then Savage and with the random nature of Vaapad are much more likely to land blows on Vos these are blows he would have had to fully block and he fights about on par with these 2....

 

A 1 handed strike from Savage is likely the same strength as the 2 handed hits from Windu so yes he will be able to directly block multiple one handed hits from savage, but Windu in their sparing matches will hit more of these 2 handed hits then savage will hit with the 1 handed hits.... now lets examine Savages ability to attempt and successfully hit with 2 handed hits and the effect those will have on Vos ..... well the only ones that I have seen him land these types of attacks against are form 5 users and even they dodge some of them the only other time he requires help or a confined space so open location against a Ataru user.... even less likely then the already hard to hit one handed technique. Now what will these 2 handed strikes do if they do hit.... well they will take Vos off his feet and send him far enough away that Savage will have to close the distance during that time Vos can lightning and slow savage down doing just as much damage as savage did with the blow.

 

So recap Vos defense.... dodging majority of attacks especially at the start CHECK

Able to block the very few one handed strikes that will get though with out a problem CHECK

Two-handed strikes almost never used until an opponent is already trapped if used Vos has a way to block, survive and recover possibly in a better position so that's Check and Mate for defenses now for offense.

 

First lets cover why melee attacks often get through when saber attacks get blocked...... awnser isn't speed the awnser is actually much easier its unpredictability, in a saber duel it is far more unpredictable that some one will strike with their body then they will with their saber. Savage has shown himself to be very susceptible to unpredictable attack types... something that Vos's Vaapad will take advantage of. A second weakness is after being dodged he leaves much of his off-hand side open especially his off-hand leg which has been injured by some one taking advantage of this weakness he even lost his off HAND to this weakness this is something melee people take advantage of all the time and ataru masters can and the few ataru user's that fought him have taken advantage of. Now since we showed that Vos has attack types that can break the defenses of Savage how lethal will they be... well again with his precision training in makashi it means if he can break the defense he should be incredibly effective and lethal as the slashes and cuts will be well aimed to hit vital areas to fully cripple or kill savage.

 

So to recap offense:

Savages weakness to unpredictability Vos skilled in Vaapad able to take advantage of that weakness CHECK

Savage weak to attack after a dodge... Vos able to dodge and strike at the same time with ataru thus able to take advantage of that weakness CHECK

Blows being accurate enough to hit vital areas before being exhausted thanks to makashi training..... CHECK and MATE

 

All in all Vos has both the required defensive type and offensive type that has proven to work best against savage dodging and attacking with unpredictable and accurate attacks.

 

I know you will disagree beni and honestly probably just going to agree to disagree with you at this point and let Aurbere decide what argument is better (unless you say something I find blatently wrong or we start covering something other then lightsaber combat... though admittedly its far more difficult for me to analyze force powers and such over lightsaber combat)

 

 

Should be noted I actually don't care for either of these characters my arguments have just been based off of what I have noticed for strengths and weaknesses of the characters saber skills and their known feats and fights and how they won or lost those fights.

Concerning his duel with Sidious. At least at that point we cannot really make the assumption that that's the case. Its pretty obvious that he's toying with Savage at the end but before? The simplest explanation was that he was caught off guard, though he quickly recovered. And TBH I don't think he cared that much, why break the morale of an enemy he can defeat with the flick of a wrist? Whom he can just as easily break with Force lightning. But anyway I won't press the matter, let's leave Aurbere to decide.

 

Concerning Ataru, I don't think you can use the wording to back up your point. We know for a fact that Ataru's defense comes in the form of acrobatics and evasion. He was deprived on that in the core and his defenses were breached, another element of his defense is simply raising his blade to block, but that element is significantly weak and was easily batted away. Ataru is certainly not more defensive than Djem So by any stretch of imagination. Djem So encourages defensive maneuvers and is more than capable of holding head-on blocks, but unlike Soresu it responds in turn immediately. Now I don't know what the Djem So page is referring to but you cannot just ignore this fact:

 

Practitioners of Ataru were always on the offensive, attacking with wide, fast, and powerful swings. ~ Wookieepedia.

 

Ataru is easily one of the most offensive of styles, while Djem So strikes an equal balance between offense and defense. Personally I don't really see what Djem So's got to do with it. But I do know that Ataru sacrifices defensive over offensive, if anything its defense is a good offense. Not to say it has no defensive capabilities whatsover.

 

And I'm not sure how you can make the assumption that Koon was using Ataru as defense, that's entirely baseless. It is possible for Koon to use a Djem So/Ataru hybrid and entirely foolish of him not to use Djem So to block Savage' attacks and then follow up with a swift counterattack. Its likely however that that counterattack was Ataru based. You can't just assume that Koon was entirely using Ataru without even having read the comic. So nothing is at all 'clear'. (Not even Aurbere is sure what exactly went down in that fight.) And of course neither Koon nor Obi-Wan were able to do any instant damage to Savage - Kenobi only managed to sever his arm thanks to Soresu which meant he could just keep on kicking, eventually Savage's leg was broken. Vos would not have that advantage and would be overwhelmed before a mortal blow could be struck.

 

And your comparison is based on incorrect assumptions. I'm not saying that Savage will be able to bypass Vos' defenses and strike a blow on Vos himself. But that its highly probable that in some point during the battle Savage's lightsaber will simply connect with Vos' in such a manner he won't be able to minimize the impact with Ataru, just like Dooku was unable to do so with Makashi. So unless Mace Windu and Bulq were unable to land a single hit on Vos' blade, then I'd say the example is invalid. Especially if we couple that with the fact the Windu and Bulq's strength is nowhere near the level of Savage's. Windu is strong but he is not imbued with Nightister magic and likely no stronger than Savage was pre-transformation who could throw people around and leave dents in solid stone with his punches. No way is a one handed strike from Savage equal to a two handed strike from Windu. And of course they wield different forms aimed at different objectives. Vaapad does not favour power attacks, it favors speed over strength. Bypassing defenses not breaking them. A better example would be Savage vs Dooku. Both Makashi and Ataru rely on minimizing the impact of a blow in terms of their defense, and redirecting the power in that way. Both are fairly incapable of blocking direct attacks. Both Vos and Dooku are highly agile, albeit in different ways, and like Dooku, Vos will be forced to block one of Savage's attacks and some point, which will incapacitate him. The only difference here is that Vos is half the duelist Dooku is and Savage twice the duelist he was then. I'm just like to point out there that that was a two-handed hit that sent Dooku flying.

 

Now concerning lightning, it would be Vos' best tactic if knocked off his feet. However Vos' recovery time from physical impact is very, very slow, a couple of kicks on the gut took him out of half the fight between him, Kenobi and Bane. And after knocking Dooku back Savage paused and basically did nothing until Ventress urged him to do so, most likely due to the fact that he was no more than an adept at that stage and under the mind-control of Nightsister magic. Given that I expect Vos will simply not be able to react fast enough to stop Savage, if he gets knocked against a wall he'll likely be impaled like Gallia (who could not react fast enough) and even if he manages a spark I doubt it will be powerful enough to stop the charge. And if he's knocked to the ground Vos will only have time roll away. He'll likely fall back on martial ability which will be ineffective, and be killed. And even if he does manage to retrieve his blade we have to remember that Savage could simply rinse repeat, or use his Force powers.

 

But yeah, we are rapidly reaching an impasse so I'd expect its soon time for Aurbere to make a decision.

[tunewalker]

Concerning his duel with Sidious. At least at that point we cannot really make the assumption that that's the case. Its pretty obvious that he's toying with Savage at the end but before? The simplest explanation was that he was caught off guard, though he quickly recovered. And TBH I don't think he cared that much, why break the morale of an enemy he can defeat with the flick of a wrist? Whom he can just as easily break with Force lightning. But anyway I won't press the matter, let's leave Aurbere to decide.

 

Concerning Ataru, I don't think you can use the wording to back up your point. We know for a fact that Ataru's defense comes in the form of acrobatics and evasion. He was deprived on that in the core and his defenses were breached, another element of his defense is simply raising his blade to block, but that element is significantly weak and was easily batted away. Ataru is certainly not more defensive than Djem So by any stretch of imagination. Djem So encourages defensive maneuvers and is more than capable of holding head-on blocks, but unlike Soresu it responds in turn immediately. Now I don't know what the Djem So page is referring to but you cannot just ignore this fact:

 

Practitioners of Ataru were always on the offensive, attacking with wide, fast, and powerful swings. ~ Wookieepedia.

 

Ataru is easily one of the most offensive of styles, while Djem So strikes an equal balance between offense and defense. Personally I don't really see what Djem So's got to do with it. But I do know that Ataru sacrifices defensive over offensive, if anything its defense is a good offense. Not to say it has no defensive capabilities whatsover.

 

And I'm not sure how you can make the assumption that Koon was using Ataru as defense, that's entirely baseless. It is possible for Koon to use a Djem So/Ataru hybrid and entirely foolish of him not to use Djem So to block Savage' attacks and then follow up with a swift counterattack. Its likely however that that counterattack was Ataru based. You can't just assume that Koon was entirely using Ataru without even having read the comic. So nothing is at all 'clear'. (Not even Aurbere is sure what exactly went down in that fight.) And of course neither Koon nor Obi-Wan were able to do any instant damage to Savage - Kenobi only managed to sever his arm thanks to Soresu which meant he could just keep on kicking, eventually Savage's leg was broken. Vos would not have that advantage and would be overwhelmed before a mortal blow could be struck.

 

And your comparison is based on incorrect assumptions. I'm not saying that Savage will be able to bypass Vos' defenses and strike a blow on Vos himself. But that its highly probable that in some point during the battle Savage's lightsaber will simply connect with Vos' in such a manner he won't be able to minimize the impact with Ataru, just like Dooku was unable to do so with Makashi. So unless Mace Windu and Bulq were unable to land a single hit on Vos' blade, then I'd say the example is invalid. Especially if we couple that with the fact the Windu and Bulq's strength is nowhere near the level of Savage's. Windu is strong but he is not imbued with Nightister magic and likely no stronger than Savage was pre-transformation who could throw people around and leave dents in solid stone with his punches. No way is a one handed strike from Savage equal to a two handed strike from Windu. And of course they wield different forms aimed at different objectives. Vaapad does not favour power attacks, it favors speed over strength. Bypassing defenses not breaking them. A better example would be Savage vs Dooku. Both Makashi and Ataru rely on minimizing the impact of a blow in terms of their defense, and redirecting the power in that way. Both are fairly incapable of blocking direct attacks. Both Vos and Dooku are highly agile, albeit in different ways, and like Dooku, Vos will be forced to block one of Savage's attacks and some point, which will incapacitate him. The only difference here is that Vos is half the duelist Dooku is and Savage twice the duelist he was then. I'm just like to point out there that that was a two-handed hit that sent Dooku flying.

 

Now concerning lightning, it would be Vos' best tactic if knocked off his feet. However Vos' recovery time from physical impact is very, very slow, a couple of kicks on the gut took him out of half the fight between him, Kenobi and Bane. And after knocking Dooku back Savage paused and basically did nothing until Ventress urged him to do so, most likely due to the fact that he was no more than an adept at that stage and under the mind-control of Nightsister magic. Given that I expect Vos will simply not be able to react fast enough to stop Savage, if he gets knocked against a wall he'll likely be impaled like Gallia (who could not react fast enough) and even if he manages a spark I doubt it will be powerful enough to stop the charge. And if he's knocked to the ground Vos will only have time roll away. He'll likely fall back on martial ability which will be ineffective, and be killed. And even if he does manage to retrieve his blade we have to remember that Savage could simply rinse repeat, or use his Force powers.

 

But yeah, we are rapidly reaching an impasse so I'd expect its soon time for Aurbere to make a decision.

 

Letting savage hit him wouldn't be to break savage it would be to break maul make maul think that with his brother he might stand a chance.... then knock him away wait for him to get up and then take away his brother. a perfect way to break some one.

 

Koon dodged multiple blows from savage doing so means that he was using an ataru defense as djem so is not known for mobility so yes we can do more then assume an ataru defense from koon remember initially he tried to overpower just like a djem so would then shifted his strat to dodging when he realized he couldn't this is koon's very common use of ataru when things go wrong.

 

And like I said I think this is an agree to disagree thing haven't seen anything to suggest the lvl of strength you suggest... strong yes but not that strong. And again I don't think Obi-wan was using much of a soresu style there at all way to active for that mobile and everything soresu is minimalist as to last as long as possible he is moving way to much for that. Not to mention soresu or not ALL of the ATTACKS that broke savage were Ataru based.

 

and again read the passages of the djem so wookie that I sent you ataru has defenses it may be mostly offensive but defense is not its weakness its staying power that's it.... read the first line ataru masters increase strength and power to so defending power blows aren't an issue again agreeing to disagree.

Edited May 31, 2013 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

Letting savage hit him wouldn't be to break savage it would be to break maul make maul think that with his brother he might stand a chance.... then knock him away wait for him to get up and then take away his brother. a perfect way to break some one.

 

Koon dodged multiple blows from savage doing so means that he was using an ataru defense as djem so is not known for mobility so yes we can do more then assume an ataru defense from koon remember initially he tried to overpower just like a djem so would then shifted his strat to dodging when he realized he couldn't this is koon's very common use of ataru when things go wrong.

 

And like I said I think this is an agree to disagree thing haven't seen anything to suggest the lvl of strength you suggest... strong yes but not that strong. And again I don't think Obi-wan was using much of a soresu style there at all way to active for that mobile and everything soresu is minimalist as to last as long as possible he is moving way to much for that. Not to mention soresu or not ALL of the ATTACKS that broke savage were Ataru based.

 

and again read the passages of the djem so wookie that I sent you ataru has defenses it may be mostly offensive but defense is not its weakness its staying power that's it.... read the first line ataru masters increase strength and power to so defending power blows aren't an issue again agreeing to disagree.

Again were making some assumptions here, how do you know that Koon commonly uses Ataru when Djem So fails? How do you know that Koon initially attempted to overpower him and then switched to Ataru? And how do you know he dodged multiple blows? Its more likely that he blocked multiple blows and then chose to dodge one in order to exploit his weakness. Again a similar tactic to Kenobi, really on a form more capable in defense to act as a platform for attack. Now I'm not saying that is what happened, but its no less likely than your assumption.

 

It seems to be a Djem So/Ataru hybrid, he dodged one attack and followed up with a swift counter attack. I'm not saying that Vos won't be able to dodge a single one of his attacks, but that he won't have a staunch defense ready to block any head-on attacks that come his way. Not that the duel means much as Koon failed to deal any significant damage, and I have already explained how Vos would not do any better.

 

Haven't seen anything to suggest Savage is strong to the level I suggest? How many videos have I provided? Just go back to my very first post and you'll see a list of Savage's feats pertaining to his immense strength. He is very, very strong. Oh and here's a video showing how strong Savage was before he was transformed. Note the dents he leaves in solid stone and although you don't see it, just before that he picked Ventress up and threw her against a wall.

 

Anyway everything else you said I agree with, but doesn't do anything to negate by arguments. I don't think I really need to point out that Soresu based attacks do not exist. But I can assure you that Soresu was keeping him alive. Its a canon fact that Ataru is entirely ineffective against multiple opponents.

[tunewalker]

Again were making some assumptions here, how do you know that Koon commonly uses Ataru when Djem So fails? How do you know that Koon initially attempted to overpower him and then switched to Ataru? And how do you know he dodged multiple blows? Its more likely that he blocked multiple blows and then chose to dodge one in order to exploit his weakness. Again a similar tactic to Kenobi, really on a form more capable in defense to act as a platform for attack. Now I'm not saying that is what happened, but its no less likely than your assumption.

 

It seems to be a Djem So/Ataru hybrid, he dodged one attack and followed up with a swift counter attack. I'm not saying that Vos won't be able to dodge a single one of his attacks, but that he won't have a staunch defense ready to block any head-on attacks that come his way. Not that the duel means much as Koon failed to deal any significant damage, and I have already explained how Vos would not do any better.

 

Haven't seen anything to suggest Savage is strong to the level I suggest? How many videos have I provided? Just go back to my very first post and you'll see a list of Savage's feats pertaining to his immense strength. He is very, very strong. Oh and here's a video showing how strong Savage was before he was transformed. Note the dents he leaves in solid stone and although you don't see it, just before that he picked Ventress up and threw her against a wall.

 

Anyway everything else you said I agree with, but doesn't do anything to negate by arguments. I don't think I really need to point out that Soresu based attacks do not exist. But I can assure you that Soresu was keeping him alive. Its a canon fact that Ataru is entirely ineffective against multiple opponents.

 

Its also a cannon fact that certain people can over come that weakness as yoda did and this obviously isn't multiple opponents so there is that. And you can tell all of the stuff on koon from his known cannon events and personality for the habits wise and aurbere said he switched tactics from overpowering and then starting to dodge.... I had assumed he read the comic. as dodging isn't djem so based then that's an ataru defense style since we know Koon was noted for using some ataru.... and again I have already tried to show you many times strong offense does not = poor defense its not the same thing and never any where at any time has there ever been a point when ataru was known for poor defense in an open area just cut that out of the debate unless you can link the point where it says it has a weak defense against a single target in an open area I garantee you wont find it.

I have linked many of those same videos the strength you suggest would be strong enough to break Kenobi's defense with a 2 handed strike with no effort no one no matter how good they were with what ever form would be able to stand against the strength you are suggesting they would fall after one hit every time so no you haven't shown him to be that strong. Vaapad is more then fast its kenetic as well as its the fully evolved version of juyo so again those would have strong power blows it also helps if you know that the force of a blow is in some ways related to speed so it can be both fast and hard hitting (ataru certainly is). And the point of showing that Vos can defend against Windu was to show that his defenses were just as good as koon and near that of obi-wan.

 

 

 

Edit: I Should really follow my own advice to let lieing dogs lie I don't know that Aurbere is going to be able to sift through all this information if we both keep repeating ourselves lol cus that's effectively what we are doing.

Edited May 31, 2013 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

Edit: I Should really follow my own advice to let lieing dogs lie I don't know that Aurbere is going to be able to sift through all this information if we both keep repeating ourselves lol cus that's effectively what we are doing.

I agree, I think you'll find that I've addressed those points already. So I'm just going to go ahead and present what I think will be Savage's winning scenario:

 

Stage 1: Vos and Savage engage, Savage rushes Vos with powerful slashes and strikes. Vos manages to evade or divert the power of these attacks but is forced to backpedal.

 

Stage 2: Tapping into Savage's dark side power Vos attempts to push the offensive with a flurry of attacks from multiple angles, however Savage uses the surface area provided by his saberstaff and natural agility to either evade or block these attacks. Any attacks that get through are therefore minor, and do little/no damage.

 

Stage 3: Vos reverts to physical attacks in an attempt to breach Savage's defenses, he succeeds in landing several blows. However Savage absorbs these attacks with relative ease, capitalizing on Vos' exposure to deal blows of his own which are far more effective.

 

Stage 4: Vos is staggered by Savage's physical attacks and is therefore unable to evade a two-handed downward strike from Savage to which he only has time to block. Robbed of the ability to minimize the impact of his attacks Vos is forced to absorb the full force of Savage's attack with a weak block which knocks him to the ground.

 

Stage 5a: If Vos has his back towards the temple doors/walls he'll be struck, incapacitated and quickly impaled by Savage's cranial horns before he can react with Force lightning or other Force based attacks.

 

Stage 5b: If Vos has his back towards the ledge then he will be sent flying into the undergrowth below and incapacitated on impact. Savage will jump down and either kill Vos straight off of defeat him in a brief duel in which his mobility will be severely hampered.

 

Stage 5c: If Vos has his back towards the ditch/stairs then he will likely roll away from a falling leaf-like attack from Savage (or simply be impaled) and in the moment of exposure when Vos staggers to his feet Savage will knock him back with a Force push or simply knock him to the ground again with a lightsaber strike and finish him off. Alternatively he could Force choke him, or just choke him. If he lands of the stairs he'll likely be in close proximity to Savage and at the perfect angle for Savage to lift him up by the next and crush his windpipe.

 

Savage has shown the ability to be able to evade fast flurries from both Kenobi and Halsey. He has shown an ability to absorb physical attacks on numerous occasions and well as returning in kind to devastating effect. One punch was enough to launch Ventress of her feet. Vos has shown little ability to recover from such attacks quickly. And Savage has overpowered numerous opponents simply be striking them with his weapon, including those designed to minimize the impact of such attacks i.e. Dooku. And he has shown remarkable ability with the Force and the ability to chain Force pushes into his attacks with powerful effect. Though a single punch would suffice.

 

Anyway this shall be the last argument I make (probably) I'll leave Aurbere to decide the outcome.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

I agree, I think you'll find that I've addressed those points already. So I'm just going to go ahead and present what I think will be Savage's winning scenario:

 

Stage 1: Vos and Savage engage, Savage rushes Vos with powerful slashes and strikes. Vos manages to evade or divert the power of these attacks but is forced to backpedal.

 

Stage 2: Tapping into Savage's dark side power Vos attempts to push the offensive with a flurry of attacks from multiple angles, however Savage uses the surface area provided by his saberstaff and natural agility to either evade or block these attacks. Any attacks that get through are therefore minor, and do little/no damage.

 

Stage 3: Vos reverts to physical attacks in an attempt to breach Savage's defenses, he succeeds in landing several blows. However Savage absorbs these attacks with relative ease, capitalizing on Vos' exposure to deal blows of his own which are far more effective.

 

Stage 4: Vos is staggered by Savage's physical attacks and is therefore unable to evade a two-handed downward strike from Savage to which he only has time to block. Robbed of the ability to minimize the impact of his attacks Vos is forced to absorb the full force of Savage's attack with a weak block which knocks him to the ground.

 

Stage 5a: If Vos has his back towards the temple doors/walls he'll be struck, incapacitated and quickly impaled by Savage's cranial horns before he can react with Force lightning or other Force based attacks.

 

Stage 5b: If Vos has his back towards the ledge then he will be sent flying into the undergrowth below and incapacitated on impact. Savage will jump down and either kill Vos straight off of defeat him in a brief duel in which his mobility will be severely hampered.

 

Stage 5c: If Vos has his back towards the ditch/stairs then he will likely roll away from a falling leaf-like attack from Savage (or simply be impaled) and in the moment of exposure when Vos staggers to his feet Savage will knock him back with a Force push or simply knock him to the ground again with a lightsaber strike and finish him off. Alternatively he could Force choke him, or just choke him. If he lands of the stairs he'll likely be in close proximity to Savage and at the perfect angle for Savage to lift him up by the next and crush his windpipe.

 

Savage has shown the ability to be able to evade fast flurries from both Kenobi and Halsey. He has shown an ability to absorb physical attacks on numerous occasions and well as returning in kind to devastating effect. One punch was enough to launch Ventress of her feet. Vos has shown little ability to recover from such attacks quickly. And Savage has overpowered numerous opponents simply be striking them with his weapon, including those designed to minimize the impact of such attacks i.e. Dooku. And he has shown remarkable ability with the Force and the ability to chain Force pushes into his attacks with powerful effect. Though a single punch would suffice.

 

Anyway this shall be the last argument I make (probably) I'll leave Aurbere to decide the outcome.

 

just one thing not going to talk about your scenario (I don't think its right but leaving it alone since we agree to disagree there) Dooku doesn't minimize strong impacts of attacks its why makashi is weak against them he tries to shunt them aside rather then move to minimize their effectiveness.... Makashi has a weaker defense then Ataru does FYI remember its an offensive form to its just based around sustained minimalist offense and defense ataru is based around burst attacks and defenses just wanted to correct that.

 

Ok I lied my winning scenario is very much like yours except

in stage one Vos doesn't back pedal he dodges the blows and moves to the off hand side... an ataru/vapaad user isn't likely to back off more likely to charge forward even while dodging while savage is still mid attack and Vos is mid dodge he slashes at savage likely scoring some minor hits (while they don't slow him down now they would have a similar effect to kicking him as his body has become more vunerable) its also possible the fight ends here as the hits could be severe enough at this stage to take limbs off as Vos is very accurate with his ataru strikes and mid attack savages defenses are weak.

stage 2 again very similar but my version has Vos severing the staff as with a pure defense he gives up that one handed style making the staff vunerable.... after the staff is gone Savages defenses lapse and he is shredded not getting a chance to melee.... if not then

stage 3 happens like yours except with the minor cuts from stage 1 the hits are effective to bringing him down and again savage loses many limbs and his life.... so there is the agree to disagree. My whole point is if 1 doesn't work move to 2 and then move to 3 all of these avenues flow into each other if one fails it increases the next ones likeliness to succeed the only variant in yours is where Savage knocks Vos. Meaning all of it has to go exactly like that without savage making a mistake or the final outcome isn't possible.

 

Edit: This is assuming of course that Vos doesn't start out using force lightning to wear down savage before it starts or instead of using melee attacks in stage 3 he backs off and again uses lightning then to again wear down savage.... so haven't even accounted for lightning really but of course its because I find it unneccisarry to winning for Vos.

 

Edit: I cant help it beni you are to much fun to argue with.... its like this impulse I cant stop myself lol.

Edited May 31, 2013 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

Edit: I cant help it beni you are to much fun to argue with.... its like this impulse I cant stop myself lol.

There's nothing like a good debate.

 

But anyway your scenario is interesting, and I can't say I agree. But we've debated every argument so I think we should just leave it up to Aurbere to decide. At least now it will be easier for him to make a decision with our arguments collated in scenarios.

 

Can't wait for the next debate.

[Aurbere]

Alright. I guess I'll be making my decision soon. Plenty to consider, but keep your eyes open for the results and two announcements.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Alright. I guess I'll be making my decision soon. Plenty to consider, but keep your eyes open for the results and two announcements.

 

Yay, can't wait to see who vs who next!

[Aurbere]

Alright, after some long deliberations, here comes the final decision.

 

Our two combatants met at the Temple of Eedit, where they engaged in a fierce battle. Savage attacked Quinlan Vos with heavy attacks intent on quickly ending the battle. Quinlan Vos would easily dodge these attacks, but the second blade on Savage's double-bladed lightsaber prevented Vos from correctly capitalizing on the openings that Savage's missed attacks made.

 

As the battle progressed, Savage grew more and more furious. His attacks were unrelenting, but his rage fueled Quinlan Vos' Vaapad technique. Vos took the fight to Savage, using his agility to make quick attacks, his Makashi training leading him to strike identifiable weak points in Savage's defense. Savage's defense proved too great for Vos to break in such a manner, forcing the Jedi to use other methods.

 

Quinlan Vos attempted to Force push Savage back. The attack was successful, but Savage was quick on his feet, and he retaliated with his own Force push before Vos' leaping attack connected. Vos quickly got back up, bringing his lightsaber up to block Savage's attack, but the force of the attack disarmed him.

 

Unarmed, Vos was forced to resort to hand-to-hand combat. His attacks were quick and precise, attacking Savage's legs. But the hulking monster was too durable. Savage ducked under a high kick from Vos, but before he could respond, Vos flipped over him and retrieved his lightsaber. The two quickly spun to face each other. Vos blocked another one-handed strike from Savage, but the nightbrother attacked Vos with his offhand, striking Vos with a solid punch to the face.

 

Stunned by the blow, he was unable to stop Savage from impaling him on his cranial horns.

 

 

This was a difficult decision to make, but after considering everything, the victor was clear to me. Congratulations to the Savage Opress backers. I had believed that the victor would be Quinlan Vos at the start, but you all changed my mind.

 

Our next match-up will see the iconic Sith Lord battle the co-creator of Vaapad.

 

But on to the two announcements.

 

1. After some careful consideration, Rahm Kota has been replaced by The Dark Woman An'ya Kuro.

 

2. Detailed character bios are incoming. In an attempt to shed some light on the lesser known characters, I have decided to add character bios to The BattleZone!

[Beniboybling]

Victory! Ha ha!

 

Great debate people.

 

Interesting choice removing Kota... not sure why but I'll trust your judgement. Now for the next matchup I'd assume Sora Bulq vs... iconic Sith Lord, iconic Sith Lord.... Darth Vader?

 

And character bios! Nice!

Edited May 31, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Victory! Ha ha!

 

Great debate people.

 

Interesting choice removing Kota... not sure why but I'll trust your judgement. Now for the next matchup I'd assume Sora Bulq vs... iconic Sith Lord, iconic Sith Lord.... Darth Vader?

 

And character bios! Nice!

 

Recently reading the TFU novel caused me to remove Kota. He's definitely skilled, but the majority of opponents that remain for him do not suffer from his weaknesses. In the TFU novel, Kota tires very quickly, a side-effect of his use of Juyo. I'm sure The Dark Woman will more than replace him.

 

Yep, Darth Vader faces Sora Bulq in the next battle.

[tunewalker]

Recently reading the TFU novel caused me to remove Kota. He's definitely skilled, but the majority of opponents that remain for him do not suffer from his weaknesses. In the TFU novel, Kota tires very quickly, a side-effect of his use of Juyo. I'm sure The Dark Woman will more than replace him.

 

Yep, Darth Vader faces Sora Bulq in the next battle.

 

hmm that will be an interesting match to consider saber duel wise.... (ya I don't consider much other then saber on saber not as easy to interpret the abilities of punches kicks/ or force powers and such I feel much more confident in my ability to discuss pure saber combat.)

[marcelo_sdk]

As I just posted once in this match, this was due to the great debate provided by tune and Beni. One of the fights I most enjoyed.

 

The next match will certainly be a fierce battle. Of all contestants, none will have such a loyal fanbase as Vader, so I see the next match dragging for awhile, as both sides will skirmish to the death.

[tunewalker]

There's nothing like a good debate.

 

But anyway your scenario is interesting, and I can't say I agree. But we've debated every argument so I think we should just leave it up to Aurbere to decide. At least now it will be easier for him to make a decision with our arguments collated in scenarios.

 

Can't wait for the next debate.

 

I am starting to wonder if we can agree on anything beni,,,, but at the same time its almost like I see you and go.... my old foe we meet again on the field of battle lol seriously debating with you is some serious fun man and I do truly hope you get to enjoy it as much as I do some times lol

[Beniboybling]

I am starting to wonder if we can agree on anything beni,,,, but at the same time its almost like I see you and go.... my old foe we meet again on the field of battle lol seriously debating with you is some serious fun man and I do truly hope you get to enjoy it as much as I do some times lol

Lol, we can agree to disagree.

 

But yeah, were's the fun in debate if there's nobody to disagree with you?

[Luckeyduckey]

Vos. And not because he's my favourite Jedi

 

But really, Savage is awesome, but he's more of a grunt than a duelist. He's powerful, but he's not tricky. Vos, on the other hand, is very tricky, and even accesses himself to both the light and the dark. Savage is best against a more flat-footed opponent, where he can ravage them apart. Vos is anything but that.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Vos. And not because he's my favourite Jedi

 

But really, Savage is awesome, but he's more of a grunt than a duelist. He's powerful, but he's not tricky. Vos, on the other hand, is very tricky, and even accesses himself to both the light and the dark. Savage is best against a more flat-footed opponent, where he can ravage them apart. Vos is anything but that.

 

Already over, Savage won.

[YoshiRaphElan]

I have to say, despite my backing of Quinlan I totally expected this outcome. The next duel should be awesome!

[Aurbere]

I have to say, despite my backing of Quinlan I totally expected this outcome. The next duel should be awesome!

 

I actually thought Vos would end up winning when I made the match-up. But that was not the case.