The BattleZone Reboot Round 1 Match 08: Quinlan Vos vs. Savage Opress

tunewalker · May 28, 2013

Before I begin I'll just respond to what Wolf said. This is actually not the case. Originally saberstaffs consisted of a single lightsaber mechanism e.g. Exar Kun's weapon. However in later years the design was simplified, consisting of two separate lightsabers connected at the pommel. The older variant at that point presumably became extremely rare. And given the size of Opress' weapon, I'd assume it was of the modern variant. Its highly unlikely to be of the older variant else the hilt would be significantly smaller.

But to address tunewalkers points:

Its possible, but not exactly relevant. We should note that it wasn't Obi-Wan's practice of Ataru specifically that allowed him to break Savage's weapon, but his own general ability. In fact I'd say it was more Maul's style if anything that led to his blade's destruction. His Juyo consists of precise taps and jabs which are quick but staccato i.e. filled with pauses. This provides numerous openings for an opponent to strike and reflects on Juyo's natural lack of defense. On the other hand, Savage favors far more fluid, pinwheeling strikes and slashes, leaving less openings for Vos to exploit. And given that Savage's form focus's on overpowering, Vos may be too distracted maintaining a defense to perform such a complex maneuver .

I think we are overestimating the abilites of pschyometry, not only does it often fail to reap rewards in open battle but it only tells the user the history of that object. So all Vos will see are brief images of Savage fighting the likes of Anakin, Obi Wan, Adi etc. which will only tell him what he already knows. I can think of no notable weaknesses that Vos can learn from Savage that can be used against him. Any such weaknesses will be evident in battle.

Not exactly, Force cloak requires a measure of concentration so I'd assume he'd need a reprieve from fighting in order to pull it off effectively. And in open battle it tends not to work. Any attempt to use it in the midst of battle would likely break his concentration and allow Savage to penetrate his defense.

And if Vos frustrates Savage its more than possible that Savage will overwhelm him with a single strike before Vos can channel his rage into a sufficient defense. IMO, I think the battle will be over before Vos can destroy Savage's blade and if he manages too Savage is likely to lash out with a Force push which could potentially incapacitate Savage and lead to his death.

Savages style is brute strength his spinning of the saber is not to keep the staff safe it is only to add as much momentum as possible..... if it is possible to block it is possible to dodge since it just means a different kind of movement. Maul would try to keep the saber safe savage wont and yes it was obi-wans skill that allowed him to severe the staff..... so its the same thing this shouldn't even be debated.

Vos has shown the ability to push people larger and stronger then Savage so to think its not a possibility is wrong.

Force cloak may be hard in the midst of the battle but once he disengages there are plenty of places to hide and with ataru disengaging should be easy then force cloak and rest his body. while cloaked vos can take his time to think and find all the weaknesses is savages style and then re-engage

I think you are over estimating savages saber staff skills here he doesn't have much of a style outside of pure strength an agile opponent means his lack of precision is where his down fall will be. Yes he has strength yes he has some speed but with out precision a fast opponent can and will dodge a large number of your strikes and create opening where there should be none.

Edited May 28, 2013 by tunewalker

Beniboybling · May 28, 2013

Savages style is brute strength his spinning of the saber is not to keep the staff safe it is only to add as much momentum as possible..... if it is possible to block it is possible to dodge since it just means a different kind of movement. Maul would try to keep the saber safe savage wont and yes it was obi-wans skill that allowed him to severe the staff..... so its the same thing this shouldn't even be debated.

Vos has shown the ability to push people larger and stronger then Savage so to think its not a possibility is wrong.
Force cloak may be hard in the midst of the battle but once he disengages there are plenty of places to hide and with ataru disengaging should be easy the force cloak and rest his body. while taking his time to think and find all the weaknesses is savages style and then re-engage

I think you are over estimating savages saber staff skills here he doesn't have much of a style outside of pure strength an agile opponent means his lack of precision is where his down fall will be. Yes he has strength yes he has some speed but with out precision a fast opponent can and will dodge a large number of your strikes and create opening where there should be none.

It may have not been the intended effect, but it is a by product. The fact is Savage's style is heavily geared towards momentum, furthered by his preference of single-handed use which will make it more difficult for Vos essentially to 'stop' the blade and destroy it as Obi-Wan did to Maul. Simply put I'm saying that Maul and Savage wield different forms so we cannot automatically assume that because one saberstaff wielder had his blade destroyed, all others will - unless their are special considerations involved.

And regarding retreating and recuperating. Its more likely to work against Vos than for him. Consider the environment, the temple is surrounded by thick, dense undergrowth. Perfect for diving into and hiding, but Savage will likely pursue. And eventually Vos is going to have to reveal himself and reengage. And when he does he'll suddenly find his mobility restricted by his confined surroundings and as such Ataru's defensive capabilities will suddenly become hampered severely. And in a similar manner to Qui-Gon he will be quickly overwhelmed.

And you make a good point concerning Savage's style, however I'm confident his saber-staff will soften that weakness, and his armour/natural durability even more so. Again cuts and slashes aren't going to hurt Savage, only an amputation, shiak or decapitation would do that. And to land such marks of contact he'd have to fully penetrate Savage's defenses. Which in turn he can only achieve by wearing Savage down through minor wounds.

In fact I think durability needs to be considered. Much like Vader, Savage can take a lot of punishment and endure minor wounds - both physical and those dealt with a lightsaber. In a battle these are the kinds of wounds Vos will need to land in order to wear Savage down, but its difficult for him to land them with much effect. On the other hand Savage has shown himself highly proficient in terms of martial arts ability and the blows he lands on Vos will have far greater impact and in turn hamper Vos's abilities and in particular he ability to block Savage's attacks and perform the taxing maneuvers of Ataru. In a war of attrition, Savage wins.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Beniboybling

Aurbere · May 28, 2013

Either way Savage Opress is imbued with dark side power, I'm not denying that. But this power is not his own and is not been actively used against Vos. Just making my position clear.

Ah, I see your point now.

Aurbere · May 29, 2013

I'm going to make the final decision soon. Everyone make your final arguments.

tunewalker · May 29, 2013

It may have not been the intended effect, but it is a by product. The fact is Savage's style is heavily geared towards momentum, furthered by his preference of single-handed use which will make it more difficult for Vos essentially to 'stop' the blade and destroy it as Obi-Wan did to Maul. Simply put I'm saying that Maul and Savage wield different forms so we cannot automatically assume that because one saberstaff wielder had his blade destroyed, all others will - unless their are special considerations involved.

And regarding retreating and recuperating. Its more likely to work against Vos than for him. Consider the environment, the temple is surrounded by thick, dense undergrowth. Perfect for diving into and hiding, but Savage will likely pursue. And eventually Vos is going to have to reveal himself and reengage. And when he does he'll suddenly find his mobility restricted by his confined surroundings and as such Ataru's defensive capabilities will suddenly become hampered severely. And in a similar manner to Qui-Gon he will be quickly overwhelmed.

And you make a good point concerning Savage's style, however I'm confident his saber-staff will soften that weakness, and his armour/natural durability even more so. Again cuts and slashes aren't going to hurt Savage, only an amputation, shiak or decapitation would do that. And to land such marks of contact he'd have to fully penetrate Savage's defenses. Which in turn he can only achieve by wearing Savage down through minor wounds.

In fact I think durability needs to be considered. Much like Vader, Savage can take a lot of punishment and endure minor wounds - both physical and those dealt with a lightsaber. In a battle these are the kinds of wounds Vos will need to land in order to wear Savage down, but its difficult for him to land them with much effect. On the other hand Savage has shown himself highly proficient in terms of martial arts ability and the blows he lands on Vos will have far greater impact and in turn hamper Vos's abilities and in particular he ability to block Savage's attacks and perform the taxing maneuvers of Ataru. In a war of attrition, Savage wins.

Lets examine some of this shall we first his defense you claim he has a great amount of defense and use this scene http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOkn3UBL51g to back it up.... but look closely at around :40-:43 you will see defensively he is only successful in defending against about 4-5 forward attackers before a rear attack makes it through. A Soresu user can fend off from 20 blaster opponents indeffinately..... here we see savages defenses to laps at around 6 opponents even with a saber staff helping him out. Even from :50-:52 when he has the most opponents you can see him fumble from a few shots getting through..... so defensively not quite the lvl you describe.

Now lets examine more closely this martial prowess you speak of.... ok we know that he is great at unarmed combat..... but how often does he use martial prowess in a lightsaber fight..... well aside from one single head butt to finish off Adi.... no he almost never throws a single punch or kick and was shown in his fight with Kenobi his legs are very open to them.

Also should be noted that Kenobi is the closest thing to an ataru master that Savage ever fought and in that fight his arm was lost.

Ok so lets further examine his fights..... Dooku and ventress... well he showed great weakness to force lightning here Vos has some skill in it ..... don't know how helpful it will be. When he fights ventress again she is using a single saber and lets face it Makashi is not known for being good against brute strength in fact if you read the wiki on it its also not known for dealing well with convensional type attacks both of which is exactly what savage is using, So style advantage Savage pretty heavily here, and yet.... he cant make a killing blow.... why? well the awnser should come easy his largly untrained and sloppier attack style means his attacks are actually easily dodged as we see her do..... Also by wielding his blade with one hand he restricts even more movement from his saber and loses many of its benefits including defensive benefits from a single skilled acrobatic opponent, along with a lot of power in his strikes which explains why people like Kenobi are able to defend against his attacks, again something Vos will have no issue taking advantage of.

All-in All I think you are overestimating Savage here his defenses are no where near as good as you claim and with the quick acrobatics from Ataru mastery that allow for both attack and defense from Vos along with precision training he received from dooku and Vaapads ability to draw on savage's rage as the fight goes on (if the fight goes on) Vos has several advantages.

If savage isn't forced into defense immediately from the counter strike he will receive from Vos's ataru form and the following vaapad strikes then he will leave much of his body open for attacks.... most notably as we have seen in his fight with Kenobi his legs..... thus dodgeing a saber strike and going for the off hand leg can cripple savage pretty well..... as since he wields his staff one handed the opposite side leg is left largly undefended a fact that obi-wan took advantage of. If he is forced into the defensive he abandon's that famous 1 handed style and goes for a 2 handed defense for better coverage..... opening his blade up to being severed by the more precise blows that Vos is able to use thanks to his training in Makashi...... While his blade is out Savage doesn't much use martial skills at all the only thing he is known for doing is tackling someone or charging them head first, while this was a good tactic against agi's shien form against an Ataru user this is a sure fire way to get yourself killed.

Edited May 29, 2013 by tunewalker

Wolfninjajedi · May 29, 2013

Lets examine some of this shall we first his defense you claim he has a great amount of defense and use this scene http://www.swtor.com/community/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=6366064 to back it up.... but look closely at around :40-:43 you will see defensively he is only successful in defending against about 4-5 forward attackers before a rear attack makes it through. A Soresu user can fend off from 20 blaster opponents indeffinately..... here we see savages defenses to laps at around 6 opponents even with a saber staff helping him out. Even from :50-:52 when he has the most opponents you can see him fumble from a few shots getting through..... so defensively not quite the lvl you describe.

Now lets examine more closely this martial prowess you speak of.... ok we know that he is great at unarmed combat..... but how often does he use martial prowess in a lightsaber fight..... well aside from one single head butt to finish off Adi.... no he almost never throws a single punch or kick and was shown in his fight with Kenobi his legs are very open to them.

Also should be noted that Kenobi is the closest thing to an ataru master that Savage ever fought and in that fight his arm was lost.

Ok so lets further examine his fights..... Dooku and ventress... well he showed great weakness to force lightning here Vos has some skill in it ..... don't know how helpful it will be. When he fights ventress again she is using a single saber and lets face it Makashi is not known for being good against brute strength in fact if you read the wiki on it its also not known for dealing well with convensional type attacks both of which is exactly what savage is using, So style advantage Savage pretty heavily here, and yet.... he cant make a killing blow.... why? well the awnser should come easy his largly untrained and sloppier attack style means his attacks are actually easily dodged as we see her do..... Also by wielding his blade with one hand he restricts even more movement from his saber and loses many of its benefits including defensive benefits from a single skilled acrobatic opponent, along with a lot of power in his strikes which explains why people like Kenobi are able to defend against his attacks, again something Vos will have no issue taking advantage of.

All-in All I think you are overestimating Savage here his defenses are no where near as good as you claim and with the quick acrobatics from Ataru mastery that allow for both attack and defense from Vos along with precision training he received from dooku and Vaapads ability to draw on savage's rage as the fight goes on (if the fight goes on) Vos has several advantages.

If savage isn't forced into defense immediately from the counter strike he will receive from Vos's ataru form and the following vaapad strikes then he will leave much of his body open for attacks.... most notably as we have seen in his fight with Kenobi his legs..... thus dodgeing a saber strike and going for the off hand leg can cripple savage pretty well..... as since he wields his staff one handed the opposite side leg is left largly undefended a fact that obi-wan took advantage of. If he is forced into the defensive he abandon's that famous 1 handed style and goes for a 2 handed defense for better coverage..... opening his blade up to being severed by the more precise blows that Vos is able to use thanks to his training in Makashi...... While his blade is out Savage doesn't much use martial skills at all the only thing he is known for doing is tackling someone or charging them head first, while this was a good tactic against agi's shien form against an Ataru user this is a sure fire way to get yourself killed.

Uh Tune, there is no vid in your link. Its just linking to reply to a post. XD

tunewalker · May 29, 2013

Uh Tune, there is no vid in your link. Its just linking to reply to a post. XD

oh thanks crap let me link the right video

Edit: Ok its fixed lol mistakes.... humans we make them

Edited May 29, 2013 by tunewalker

Beniboybling · May 29, 2013

Lets examine some of this shall we first his defense you claim he has a great amount of defense and use this scene http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOkn3UBL51g to back it up.... but look closely at around :40-:43 you will see defensively he is only successful in defending against about 4-5 forward attackers before a rear attack makes it through. A Soresu user can fend off from 20 blaster opponents indeffinately..... here we see savages defenses to laps at around 6 opponents even with a saber staff helping him out. Even from :50-:52 when he has the most opponents you can see him fumble from a few shots getting through..... so defensively not quite the lvl you describe.

Now lets examine more closely this martial prowess you speak of.... ok we know that he is great at unarmed combat..... but how often does he use martial prowess in a lightsaber fight..... well aside from one single head butt to finish off Adi.... no he almost never throws a single punch or kick and was shown in his fight with Kenobi his legs are very open to them.

Also should be noted that Kenobi is the closest thing to an ataru master that Savage ever fought and in that fight his arm was lost.

Ok so lets further examine his fights..... Dooku and ventress... well he showed great weakness to force lightning here Vos has some skill in it ..... don't know how helpful it will be. When he fights ventress again she is using a single saber and lets face it Makashi is not known for being good against brute strength in fact if you read the wiki on it its also not known for dealing well with convensional type attacks both of which is exactly what savage is using, So style advantage Savage pretty heavily here, and yet.... he cant make a killing blow.... why? well the awnser should come easy his largly untrained and sloppier attack style means his attacks are actually easily dodged as we see her do..... Also by wielding his blade with one hand he restricts even more movement from his saber and loses many of its benefits including defensive benefits from a single skilled acrobatic opponent, along with a lot of power in his strikes which explains why people like Kenobi are able to defend against his attacks, again something Vos will have no issue taking advantage of.

All-in All I think you are overestimating Savage here his defenses are no where near as good as you claim and with the quick acrobatics from Ataru mastery that allow for both attack and defense from Vos along with precision training he received from dooku and Vaapads ability to draw on savage's rage as the fight goes on (if the fight goes on) Vos has several advantages.

If savage isn't forced into defense immediately from the counter strike he will receive from Vos's ataru form and the following vaapad strikes then he will leave much of his body open for attacks.... most notably as we have seen in his fight with Kenobi his legs..... thus dodgeing a saber strike and going for the off hand leg can cripple savage pretty well..... as since he wields his staff one handed the opposite side leg is left largly undefended a fact that obi-wan took advantage of. If he is forced into the defensive he abandon's that famous 1 handed style and goes for a 2 handed defense for better coverage..... opening his blade up to being severed by the more precise blows that Vos is able to use thanks to his training in Makashi...... While his blade is out Savage doesn't much use martial skills at all the only thing he is known for doing is tackling someone or charging them head first, while this was a good tactic against agi's shien form against an Ataru user this is a sure fire way to get yourself killed.

Concerning Ataru: note I'm not saying that Savage's defensive capababilities can in anyway come close to that of a Soresu master, I was merely using it as context. Now concerning the video, I think you'll find actually find that from 0:40 onwards he is actually deflecting fire from ten shooters, three of which are droidekas. And it is only when the six super battle droids come in from behind that 1 bolt manages to get through. But just one. Then, at 0:50 he has become completely surrounded by 16 shooters, all of whom are firing at close range. Now a Soresu master can hold out against 20 shooters, but surronding them at at close range? Nigh impossible. So its a testament to Savage's skill that he manages to hold out against 16, at close range, and only letting 2 shots through. And testament to his endurance that he manages to absorb the blaster fire once they break through his defenses yet seemingly take no damage.

I think this can be applied to the duel. Vos will use Ataru to attack Savage from multiple angles (even with Ataru he cannot feasibly mimic being attacked from all sides simultaneously) the majority of which Savage will block, using both his own defensive capabilities and the increased surface area provided by his saberstaff. And any blows that manage to bypass his defenses will be absorbed.

I think we should also note here that a comparison between Kenobi and Vos cannot really be made. As at that point Kenobi favored Soresu and it was Soresu that allowed him to remain alive against Maul and Savage, and Soresu that allowed him to exploit Savage's weaknesses at the opportune moment. Yes a physical kick would suggest Ataru, and it likely was derived from that, but in the end he was employing Soresu, not Ataru tactics, to exploit Savage's weaknesses. Something Ataru is not geared towards which instead prefers simply to break through an opponents defense. In this case physical attacks would likely be aimed at the chest, head etc. which would have little effect and likely backfire.

Concerning martial prowess: Savage does actually use physical attacks in battle. See

Savage chains a physical attack into his lightsaber sequence to disarm Ventress, and continues to chain physical attacks throughout the battle. Now it could be argued that this was only because Ventress was unarmed, however the fact he used it to disarm her in the first place would beg to differ. And its likely he didn't used such tactics elsewhere as when tag-teaming with Maul it would be far more difficult (although he did manage to headbutt Darth Sidious when an opening presented itself - given this is Darth Sidious, I expect Vos would be just as susceptible.) And its likely he didn't use it against Adi because he wasn't prompted, lightsaber attacks seemed sufficient. Its important to remember that Savage is impulsive, he reacts instinctively in battle. So if Vos, like Ventress, were to attack him with physical blows he would respond in kind and like against Ventress, to far greater and more lethal effect. With the potential to disarm and incapacitate.

Concerning his previous duels: Yes Makashi gives Savage the form advantage. But so does Vos' Ataru/Shien/Makashi hybrid. Its completely incapable of blocking power attacks, the sort that Savage will dish out freely, excessively and to maximum effect. And at least in Ventress' case, Savage would have eventually killed her if not for their tactical retreat. Savage had already relieved her of her lightsaber and it was only a matter of time before she was worn down and killed. And Vos is not as agile as she is, agile yes, but not as agile. And seemingly far more

to physical attacks. He may not have been able to kill her with his lightsaber, but all his physical attacks hit home. I'd also question whether wielding his blade in a single hand limits his ability, it certainly doesn't seem to limit the power of his attacks and if anything makes them more fluid and fast, as well as allowing him to bet maneuver (e.g. swinging and slashing rather than jabs and taps) arguably overcoming one of the saberstaff's primary weakness. And he's more than able to switch to both hands when need be. Restricting movement is the last thing it does, it gives him mobility which is likely why he favours it, to compensate for his large frame. Nor should we forget that Kenobi is the master of defense, which is why he held out so well against both him and Maul.

Now you make some interesting evaluations about style but you've got to remember that Savage can easily absorb anything short of an amputation, beheading or impalement from Vos. So more minor cuts, slashes and kicks are going to be largely ineffective and instead likely leave Vos exposed. Such marks of contact will be essential to Vos' success because he needs to wear Savage down before he can deal a mortal wound. We are also making the assumption that Vos will even be able to push Savage on the offensive, and won't simply be overwhelmed in the opening bout. After all Kenobi and Anakin were unable to push Savage on the defensive, despite them being two and also exceptionally skilled duelists, and were thrown of their feet twice.

tunewalker · May 29, 2013

Concerning Ataru: note I'm not saying that Savage's defensive capababilities can in anyway come close to that of a Soresu master, I was merely using it as context. Now concerning the video, I think you'll find actually find that from 0:40 onwards he is actually deflecting fire from ten shooters, three of which are droidekas. And it is only when the six super battle droids come in from behind that 1 bolt manages to get through. But just one. Then, at 0:50 he has become completely surrounded by 16 shooters, all of whom are firing at close range. Now a Soresu master can hold out against 20 shooters, but surronding them at at close range? Nigh impossible. So its a testament to Savage's skill that he manages to hold out against 16, at close range, and only letting 2 shots through. And testament to his endurance that he manages to absorb the blaster fire once they break through his defenses yet seemingly take no damage.

I think this can be applied to the duel. Vos will use Ataru to attack Savage from multiple angles (even with Ataru he cannot feasibly mimic being attacked from all sides simultaneously) the majority of which Savage will block, using both his own defensive capabilities and the increased surface area provided by his saberstaff. And any blows that manage to bypass his defenses will be absorbed.

I think we should also note here that a comparison between Kenobi and Vos cannot really be made. As at that point Kenobi favored Soresu and it was Soresu that allowed him to remain alive against Maul and Savage, and Soresu that allowed him to exploit Savage's weaknesses at the opportune moment. Yes a physical kick would suggest Ataru, and it likely was derived from that, but in the end he was employing Soresu, not Ataru tactics, to exploit Savage's weaknesses. Something Ataru is not geared towards which instead prefers simply to break through an opponents defense. In this case physical attacks would likely be aimed at the chest, head etc. which would have little effect and likely backfire.

Concerning martial prowess: Savage does actually use physical attacks in battle. See
Savage chains a physical attack into his lightsaber sequence to disarm Ventress, and continues to chain physical attacks throughout the battle. Now it could be argued that this was only because Ventress was unarmed, however the fact he used it to disarm her in the first place would beg to differ. And its likely he didn't used such tactics elsewhere as when tag-teaming with Maul it would be far more difficult (although he did manage to headbutt Darth Sidious when an opening presented itself - given this is Darth Sidious, I expect Vos would be just as susceptible.) And its likely he didn't use it against Adi because he wasn't prompted, lightsaber attacks seemed sufficient. Its important to remember that Savage is impulsive, he reacts instinctively in battle. So if Vos, like Ventress, were to attack him with physical blows he would respond in kind and like against Ventress, to far greater and more lethal effect. With the potential to disarm and incapacitate.

Concerning his previous duels: Yes Makashi gives Savage the form advantage. But so does Vos' Ataru/Shien/Makashi hybrid. Its completely incapable of blocking power attacks, the sort that Savage will dish out freely, excessively and to maximum effect. And at least in Ventress' case, Savage would have eventually killed her if not for their tactical retreat. Savage had already relieved her of her lightsaber and it was only a matter of time before she was worn down and killed. And Vos is not as agile as she is, agile yes, but not as agile. And seemingly far more
to physical attacks. He may not have been able to kill her with his lightsaber, but all his physical attacks hit home. I'd also question whether wielding his blade in a single hand limits his ability, it certainly doesn't seem to limit the power of his attacks and if anything makes them more fluid and fast, as well as allowing him to bet maneuver (e.g. swinging and slashing rather than jabs and taps) arguably overcoming one of the saberstaff's primary weakness. And he's more than able to switch to both hands when need be. Restricting movement is the last thing it does, it gives him mobility which is likely why he favours it, to compensate for his large frame. Nor should we forget that Kenobi is the master of defense, which is why he held out so well against both him and Maul.

Now you make some interesting evaluations about style but you've got to remember that Savage can easily absorb anything short of an amputation, beheading or impalement from Vos. So more minor cuts, slashes and kicks are going to be largely ineffective and instead likely leave Vos exposed. Such marks of contact will be essential to Vos' success because he needs to wear Savage down before he can deal a mortal wound. We are also making the assumption that Vos will even be able to push Savage on the offensive, and won't simply be overwhelmed in the opening bout. After all Kenobi and Anakin were unable to push Savage on the defensive, despite them being two and also exceptionally skilled duelists, and were thrown of their feet twice.

You fail to notice that while there are 10 in front not all of them are firing at him only about 4- or 5 actually shot at him then his defense lapsed when the droids came behind so no my assessment of defenses was based on what was actually shooting at him not number that were standing there but number that actually attacked.

I am saying that its unlikely that Vos will be disarmed 1. and 2 you keep making the same mistake I will highlight it for you (Yes Makashi gives Savage the form advantage. But so does Vos' Ataru/Shien/Makashi hybrid. Its completely incapable of blocking power attacks, the sort that Savage will dish out freely, excessively and to maximum effect) WRONG, lets see the number of lvls in which its wrong first Vos only uses Shien really as blaster deflection this isn't blasters here so its not Ataru/shien/makashi its actually Ataru/vaapad/makashi. Second and this is the most wrong point. Ataru masters have 0 count it not a single but zero problems blocking power attacks. The way an ataru master blocks a power attack is since they stay in constant motion they will either A. dodge it completely, or B. while in momentum they will turn their opponents blade just enough that their already in motion body will slip past the power blow. While this is difficult for them when facing skill practitioners or in closed areas this is not the case in this duel they are in an open area and Savage is not skilled in any way, thus this plays to Vos's strength.

The movements being used by Kenobi suggest more ataru at that point as he was being much more aggressive and was using a lot of acrobatics..... so its up for debate but again he is the closest to an ataru master that savage fought.... (you should look up more on Kenobi while soresu was his primary form he used ataru as his basis for his attacks as soresu focused entirely on defense, so every attack that was made is more ataru based then anything else.... and it was that base that got broke savage's defenses while obi-wan was outnumbered.)

Second you seem to be focusing on the idea that Vos will NEED to hurt Savage before amputating a limb or just straight killing him..... I don't think this is true as I have already said either savage will go on the offensive opening up several points of contact that a ataru master/ vaapad user with some of the makashi attack precision If he goes on the defense then his staff will be vunerable so offense or defense he is open to a weakness in his style so offense or defense Vos can and will cripple Savage..... the only weakness Vos has is staying power he won't be able to last long but in this arena and against an opponent like Savage he wont need to and if he does get tired he has more then enough room to flee and cloak and then just hide long enough to catch his breath and then try again, this time facing an angrier savage. Which will cause savage to be stronger and sloppier which will make it even easier for Vos as he can draw on that strength and the openings created by the anger means Savage will deffinately not last long this time.

Also Anakin and Obi-wan were in a hall way, and Anakin didn't really seem to attempt many attacks very odd for him..... I suggest that fight had not truly begun they seemed to be leading Savage into a more open area to take advantage of his weaknesses, Also we are talking Soresu and possibly Shien at this time (Anakin started as a Shien master and switched to Djem So during the war) Soresu is deffinately not an offensive form so it wouldn't push savage onto the defensive, and with Anakin not really counter attacking he may have been trying not to accidentally push the other side of the saber at his master since they were in such a small area.... also savage was pumped up by his anger here making him much stronger then he normally would be, something that he would not be able to use against Vos thanks to Vapaad.

Edited May 29, 2013 by tunewalker

Beniboybling · May 29, 2013

You fail to notice that while there are 10 in front not all of them are firing at him only about 4- or 5 actually shot at him then his defense lapsed when the droids came behind so no my assessment of defenses was based on what was actually shooting at him not number that were standing there but number that actually attacked.

I am saying that its unlikely that Vos will be disarmed 1. and 2 you keep making the same mistake I will highlight it for you (Yes Makashi gives Savage the form advantage. But so does Vos' Ataru/Shien/Makashi hybrid. Its completely incapable of blocking power attacks, the sort that Savage will dish out freely, excessively and to maximum effect) WRONG, lets see the number of lvls in which its wrong first Vos only uses Shien really as blaster deflection this isn't blasters here so its not Ataru/shien/makashi its actually Ataru/vaapad/makashi. Second and this is the most wrong point. Ataru masters have 0 count it not a single but zero problems blocking power attacks. The way an ataru master blocks a power attack is since they stay in constant motion they will either A. dodge it completely, or B. while in momentum they will turn their opponents blade just enough that their already in motion body will slip past the power blow. While this is difficult for them when facing skill practitioners or in closed areas this is not the case in this duel they are in an open area and Savage is not skilled in any way, thus this plays to Vos's strength.

The movements being used by Kenobi suggest more ataru at that point as he was being much more aggressive and was using a lot of acrobatics..... so its up for debate but again he is the closest to an ataru master that savage fought.... (you should look up more on Kenobi while soresu was his primary form he used ataru as his basis for his attacks as soresu focused entirely on defense, so every attack that was made is more ataru based then anything else.... and it was that base that got broke savage's defenses while obi-wan was outnumbered.)

Second you seem to be focusing on the idea that Vos will NEED to hurt Savage before amputating a limb or just straight killing him..... I don't think this is true as I have already said either savage will go on the offensive opening up several points of contact that a ataru master/ vaapad user with some of the makashi attack precision If he goes on the defense then his staff will be vunerable so offense or defense he is open to a weakness in his style so offense or defense Vos can and will cripple Savage..... the only weakness Vos has is staying power he won't be able to last long but in this arena and against an opponent like Savage he wont need to and if he does get tired he has more then enough room to flee and cloak and then just hide long enough to catch his breath and then try again, this time facing an angrier savage. Which will cause savage to be stronger and sloppier which will make it even easier for Vos as he can draw on that strength and the openings created by the anger means Savage will deffinately not last long this time.

Well we can't actually see all the shooters in that shot, all we know is that there are 10 shooters there. And given that all the shooters in the shot are shooting at him (of which I count at least six, including the three droidekas) it would be logical to assume that the rest as shooting at him as well, after all they are not going to be standing around doing nothing and they have been ordered to kill him, that would be silly. So we must assume that all ten are shooting at him. They certainly all are by 0:50.

Concerning lightsaber forms, I'm completely aware of that, let me make that clear. And its my fault for not being clear enough on that point. But to explain, yes Ataru compensates for its lack of defense by being essentially unhittable i.e. evading the attacks of minimizing the power of that attack. I am aware of that. But the fact remains that it is ineffective against blocking attacks head-on. The above is not blocking, its evading. By blocking I mean completely absorbing the impact, Ataru is of no help there. As Wookieepedia says concerning Qui-Gon:

Without ample space to move in the Theed Royal Palace reactor core, Jinn was deprived of the key element in his defense, and thus could only attempt to block Maul's incessant barrage of Juyo strikes.

...which resulted in his death. So, simply put, Ataru is entirely inadequate in terms of absorbing/blocking Savage's power attacks. Yes Jinn only faltered because he was in a confined space. But we have to consider that Savage's attacks are that much more powerful than Maul's and a single strike was sufficient enough to knockback Dooku. This was likely partly due to the fact that like Ataru, Makashi is incapable of blocking kinetic attacks head-on. So it would be plausible to assume that if Vos was forced to block a single one of Savage's attacks, he could be disarmed in the same way. Will it happen? Vos' skill with Ataru would suggest not. But then again Dooku's skill with Makashi would suggest that he would not fall foul to his own style's weakness either. So, based on that, it is highly unlikely that Vos will not be forced to block head-on, at least one of Savage's attacks. And one is all it will take. Again, didn't mean to confused.

Oh and concerning Shien, I was merely making the point that given what its geared towards, it will be next to useless in this battle. Just a disclaimer if anything really. I also don't think Vaapad will be much help 1. because he only knows a few basic moves and 2. because it also suffers from the same defensive weakness as Juyo, at least in terms of lightsaber attacks.

And I'm aware of Kenobi's skills, but if he was using Ataru primarily in that battle, he'd be dead. Just like Qui-Gon he would have been caught in a confined space and deprive of his defensive capabilities, and then killed by the very same man who killed his master. That would be ironic. So Ataru doesn't really come into play here as Soresu was his saving face. However we should note the nature of Soresu, it is not entirely defensive but is all about waiting your enemy out and striking at the right moment i.e. kicking Savage's leg. So while the attack itself was Ataru, the tactic was Soresu. And because Vos does not have the defensive advantages afforded by Soresu he cannot wait Savage out in the same way, and cannot exploit his weaknesses in the same way. So yeah its close, but not nearly close enough for a comparison to be made as the tactics are entirely different. Essentially Vos cannot do what Kenobi did.

And I see your point about crippling Savage, however I think its unlikely that Vos will be able to score a mortal wound that quickly. Simply because he's not that skilled. Even Sidious wore Savage down before he went in for the killing blow. And if Savage manages to score some hits of his own, Vos' offensive capabilities will be hampered. And I've already explained the weaknesses of retreating and recuperating, it could easily spell doom for Vos.

Canino · May 29, 2013

Well we can't actually see all the shooters in that shot, all we know is that there are 10 shooters there. And given that all the shooters in the shot are shooting at him (of which I count at least six, including the three droidekas) it would be logical to assume that the rest as shooting at him as well, after all they are not going to be standing around doing nothing and they have been ordered to kill him, that would be silly. So we must assume that all ten are shooting at him. They certainly all are by 0:50.

Concerning lightsaber forms, I'm completely aware of that, let me make that clear. And its my fault for not being clear enough on that point. But to explain, yes Ataru compensates for its lack of defense by being essentially unhittable i.e. evading the attacks of minimizing the power of that attack. I am aware of that. But the fact remains that it is ineffective against blocking attacks head-on. The above is not blocking, its evading. By blocking I mean completely absorbing the impact, Ataru is of no help there. As Wookieepedia says concerning Qui-Gon:

Without ample space to move in the Theed Royal Palace reactor core, Jinn was deprived of the key element in his defense, and thus could only attempt to block Maul's incessant barrage of Juyo strikes.

...which resulted in his death. So, simply put, Ataru is entirely inadequate in terms of absorbing/blocking Savage's power attacks. Yes Jinn only faltered because he was in a confined space. But we have to consider that Savage's attacks are that much more powerful than Maul's and a single strike was sufficient enough to knockback Dooku. This was likely partly due to the fact that like Ataru, Makashi is incapable of blocking kinetic attacks head-on. So it would be plausible to assume that if Vos was forced to block a single one of Savage's attacks, he could be disarmed in the same way. Will it happen? Vos' skill with Ataru would suggest not. But then again Dooku's skill with Makashi would suggest that he would not fall foul to his own style's weakness either. So, based on that, it is highly unlikely that Vos will not be forced to block head-on, at least one of Savage's attacks. And one is all it will take. Again, didn't mean to confused.

Oh and concerning Shien, I was merely making the point that given what its geared towards, it will be next to useless in this battle. Just a disclaimer if anything really. I also don't think Vaapad will be much help 1. because he only knows a few basic moves and 2. because it also suffers from the same defensive weakness as Juyo, at least in terms of lightsaber attacks.

And I'm aware of Kenobi's skills, but if he was using Ataru primarily in that battle, he'd be dead. Just like Qui-Gon he would have been caught in a confined space and deprive of his defensive capabilities, and then killed by the very same man who killed his master. That would be ironic. So Ataru doesn't really come into play here as Soresu was his saving face. However we should note the nature of Soresu, it is not entirely defensive but is all about waiting your enemy out and striking at the right moment i.e. kicking Savage's leg. So while the attack itself was Ataru, the tactic was Soresu. And because Vos does not have the defensive advantages afforded by Soresu he cannot wait Savage out in the same way, and cannot exploit his weaknesses in the same way. So yeah its close, but not nearly close enough for a comparison to be made as the tactics are entirely different. Essentially Vos cannot do what Kenobi did.

And I see your point about crippling Savage, however I think its unlikely that Vos will be able to score a mortal wound that quickly. Simply because he's not that skilled. Even Sidious wore Savage down before he went in for the killing blow. And if Savage manages to score some hits of his own, Vos' offensive capabilities will be hampered. And I've already explained the weaknesses of retreating and recuperating, it could easily spell doom for Vos.

Alright. I have to call you out on this. You keep saying this, and it is wrong. Just wrong. Vos knows far more about Vaapad then you are suggesting, or letting on. A few BASIC moves? He killed the CO-CREATOR with his own style, and used Vaapad Subconsciously against Mace. Let's break down each point.

In the Windu duel, he used the moves subconsciously. You don't do something subconsciously unless you truly know it, and how to do it. The correct way. Our minds just don't work the way you are suggesting. In order to use Vaapad, or any style subconsciously you would have to know at the very least, a decent amount about it. A real word example could be coding. You write the code, and have to learn more to make it work. You can't just know the basic code, as in order for the basic code to work you have to know more.

In the Bulq duel, he killed him with Vaapad, after conquering his inner darkness, something that very well could come into play with this battle. He could also feed off Opress's rage, which seems to be bountiful. Vaapad prospers in the heat of battle, as well as when the combatant is focus and "in" the battle. All of these factor point to Vaapad being relatively to quite strong in Vos, and even more so in this battle.

Although Opress may not be extremely powerful in the dark side, he is fueled by hate, fear, and a lust for acceptance/power. All of these things give Vos the edge when using Vaapad, as it will take advantage of these things. Vos is also quite close to the dark side, so he can channel his own hatred into the form, which strengthens it.

Don't underestimate Vos's skills.

Darkondo · May 30, 2013

A suggestion Aurbere, next time you use Savage in a vs. thread make sure they cant use force lightning, Savage doesn't know how to defend it and has shown no sign of being able to endure it.

That being said, Vos doesn't use lightning in combat and Plo Koon knew electric judgement but he still was beaten by Savage.

Given my lack of clear knowledge on Vos that's all im going to say.

Aurbere · May 30, 2013

A suggestion Aurbere, next time you use Savage in a vs. thread make sure they cant use force lightning, Savage doesn't know how to defend it and has shown no sign of being able to endure it.

That being said, Vos doesn't use lightning in combat and Plo Koon knew electric judgement but he still was beaten by Savage.

Given my lack of clear knowledge on Vos that's all im going to say.

I put Savage in a match that he would either lose or would be difficult for him to win. If that means him fighting a user of Force lightning, then so be it. I will not make matches to prevent someone with a particular weakness from being defeated via that weakness. If this were the case, I wouldn't have put Vader in at all (due to his false lightning weakness).

As to your other comments. Vos used Force lightning against Volfe Karkko mid-combat. This lightning was enough to stop Volfe in his tracks, but was said by Volfe to be weak in comparison to his own.

And Plo Koon only lost due to Savage ripping off Plo Koon's mask. Not only that, but Plo Koon only used Electric Judgment once- to subdue a criminal. If we examine the duel, we can clearly see that Plo Koon is the superior duelist. He holds his own against Savage's onslaught, and even catches him on the leg with his lightsaber. It is obvious that Plo Koon's skills were superior. I believe that Plo Koon would have won had Savage not attacked the mask.

Also, Beni, I would like to reiterate something. Vos will be more than willing to use all of the Marks of Contact against Savage. During his battle with Volfe Karkko, Quinlan Vos cut Volfe in half. This was when he was a Jedi.

tunewalker · May 30, 2013

Well we can't actually see all the shooters in that shot, all we know is that there are 10 shooters there. And given that all the shooters in the shot are shooting at him (of which I count at least six, including the three droidekas) it would be logical to assume that the rest as shooting at him as well, after all they are not going to be standing around doing nothing and they have been ordered to kill him, that would be silly. So we must assume that all ten are shooting at him. They certainly all are by 0:50.

Concerning lightsaber forms, I'm completely aware of that, let me make that clear. And its my fault for not being clear enough on that point. But to explain, yes Ataru compensates for its lack of defense by being essentially unhittable i.e. evading the attacks of minimizing the power of that attack. I am aware of that. But the fact remains that it is ineffective against blocking attacks head-on. The above is not blocking, its evading. By blocking I mean completely absorbing the impact, Ataru is of no help there. As Wookieepedia says concerning Qui-Gon:

Without ample space to move in the Theed Royal Palace reactor core, Jinn was deprived of the key element in his defense, and thus could only attempt to block Maul's incessant barrage of Juyo strikes.

...which resulted in his death. So, simply put, Ataru is entirely inadequate in terms of absorbing/blocking Savage's power attacks. Yes Jinn only faltered because he was in a confined space. But we have to consider that Savage's attacks are that much more powerful than Maul's and a single strike was sufficient enough to knockback Dooku. This was likely partly due to the fact that like Ataru, Makashi is incapable of blocking kinetic attacks head-on. So it would be plausible to assume that if Vos was forced to block a single one of Savage's attacks, he could be disarmed in the same way. Will it happen? Vos' skill with Ataru would suggest not. But then again Dooku's skill with Makashi would suggest that he would not fall foul to his own style's weakness either. So, based on that, it is highly unlikely that Vos will not be forced to block head-on, at least one of Savage's attacks. And one is all it will take. Again, didn't mean to confused.

Oh and concerning Shien, I was merely making the point that given what its geared towards, it will be next to useless in this battle. Just a disclaimer if anything really. I also don't think Vaapad will be much help 1. because he only knows a few basic moves and 2. because it also suffers from the same defensive weakness as Juyo, at least in terms of lightsaber attacks.

And I'm aware of Kenobi's skills, but if he was using Ataru primarily in that battle, he'd be dead. Just like Qui-Gon he would have been caught in a confined space and deprive of his defensive capabilities, and then killed by the very same man who killed his master. That would be ironic. So Ataru doesn't really come into play here as Soresu was his saving face. However we should note the nature of Soresu, it is not entirely defensive but is all about waiting your enemy out and striking at the right moment i.e. kicking Savage's leg. So while the attack itself was Ataru, the tactic was Soresu. And because Vos does not have the defensive advantages afforded by Soresu he cannot wait Savage out in the same way, and cannot exploit his weaknesses in the same way. So yeah its close, but not nearly close enough for a comparison to be made as the tactics are entirely different. Essentially Vos cannot do what Kenobi did.

And I see your point about crippling Savage, however I think its unlikely that Vos will be able to score a mortal wound that quickly. Simply because he's not that skilled. Even Sidious wore Savage down before he went in for the killing blow. And if Savage manages to score some hits of his own, Vos' offensive capabilities will be hampered. And I've already explained the weaknesses of retreating and recuperating, it could easily spell doom for Vos.

You are failing to account for the ones that went and attacked Kenobi and Anakin some came from the direction that we saw Savage at..... so no we cant assume anything as we did see Kenobi and Anakin block a few bolts from that direction..... and at :50 like I said he blocked about 10 shooters.... for about 2 seconds and then got hit by the 11th or 12th shot fired. And that was pure defense.... where his staff would be vunerable.... and his body is vunerable when he is attacking......http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlJiphrbLyg pretend ventress's fists are a lightsaber because that's the way an ataru user is going to move if he is attacking that's how he dies.

Even blocking multiple head-on wont break Vos, Ataru uses ALL of the physically enhancing force powers this includes strength.... again he wont falture against such an unskilled opponent in such a large space with out falling to the ONLY weakness of ataru exhaustion.

Also you can see multiple of kenobi's maneuvers being ataru based even much of the defense in that fight including dodging and he was highly aggressive against both maul and savage in that fight and you seem to forget the main part of what you just said here let me highlight it (However we should note the nature of Soresu, it is not entirely defensive but is all about waiting your enemy out and striking at the right moment i.e. kicking Savage's leg) the specific word here that is correct is WAITING. Soresu masters make no attacks at all and just minimize energy loss while letting the enemy lose as much energy as possible wearing themselves out before making attacks. The attacking of savages legs and the overall aggressiveness of Kenobi in this fight means that no he isn't using soresu because if he did.... he would have died he would not be able to outlast 2 opponents and he knew it his only hope was to quickly defeat the weaker of the 2 allowing either himself or forcing his opponents to retreat, something he succeeded in. Ultimately you are correct the large difference here is Vos has more room to work with and only a single opponent meaning the Soresu defenses are unneccisary to keep him alive and his great skill with ataru will be more then enough.

And I don't know about him not being skilled enough to do so Sidious is a terrible example.... sidious was not trying to win that fight he was trying to break maul.... he turned off his sabers and dodged savage with ease its possible he was just waiting for Maul to recover so that he could force maul to watch the death of his brother while being helpless to stop this..... to support this after pushing Savage off he doesn't try to intercept Maul he lets him go.... Sidious loves to break peoples psyche and as he doesn't want maul dead he wants him broken this would be the perfect way to do so.... thus the sidious fight.....not really a good one to use for this debate.

Edited May 30, 2013 by tunewalker

tunewalker · May 30, 2013

I put Savage in a match that he would either lose or would be difficult for him to win. If that means him fighting a user of Force lightning, then so be it. I will not make matches to prevent someone with a particular weakness from being defeated via that weakness. If this were the case, I wouldn't have put Vader in at all (due to his false lightning weakness).

As to your other comments. Vos used Force lightning against Volfe Karkko mid-combat. This lightning was enough to stop Volfe in his tracks, but was said by Volfe to be weak in comparison to his own.

And Plo Koon only lost due to Savage ripping off Plo Koon's mask. Not only that, but Plo Koon only used Electric Judgment once- to subdue a criminal. If we examine the duel, we can clearly see that Plo Koon is the superior duelist. He holds his own against Savage's onslaught, and even catches him on the leg with his lightsaber. It is obvious that Plo Koon's skills were superior. I believe that Plo Koon would have won had Savage not attacked the mask.

Also, Beni, I would like to reiterate something. Vos will be more than willing to use all of the Marks of Contact against Savage. During his battle with Volfe Karkko, Quinlan Vos cut Volfe in half. This was when he was a Jedi.

And pretty much this to support the idea that going for the weaker points of amputation in savage's defenses to be likely and Lightning could come into play here to slow savage down long enough to hit with a quick vapaad strike.... its just so many ways to overcome savages offenses and defenses and Vos is pretty much the perfect storm of abilities to do so..... I just don't see him getting exhausted before either amputating one or more limbs of savage and or destroying the staff.... Savages blows are far to inaccurate to hit an ataru master of Vos's caliber.

See above post for full thing.

Beniboybling · May 30, 2013

Alright. I have to call you out on this. You keep saying this, and it is wrong. Just wrong. Vos knows far more about Vaapad then you are suggesting, or letting on. A few BASIC moves? He killed the CO-CREATOR with his own style, and used Vaapad Subconsciously against Mace. Let's break down each point.

In the Windu duel, he used the moves subconsciously. You don't do something subconsciously unless you truly know it, and how to do it. The correct way. Our minds just don't work the way you are suggesting. In order to use Vaapad, or any style subconsciously you would have to know at the very least, a decent amount about it. A real word example could be coding. You write the code, and have to learn more to make it work. You can't just know the basic code, as in order for the basic code to work you have to know more.

In the Bulq duel, he killed him with Vaapad, after conquering his inner darkness, something that very well could come into play with this battle. He could also feed off Opress's rage, which seems to be bountiful. Vaapad prospers in the heat of battle, as well as when the combatant is focus and "in" the battle. All of these factor point to Vaapad being relatively to quite strong in Vos, and even more so in this battle.

Although Opress may not be extremely powerful in the dark side, he is fueled by hate, fear, and a lust for acceptance/power. All of these things give Vos the edge when using Vaapad, as it will take advantage of these things. Vos is also quite close to the dark side, so he can channel his own hatred into the form, which strengthens it.

Don't underestimate Vos's skills.

The basis of my comments was merely what Aurbere said in the OP:

While Quinlan Vos had mastered the mental and spiritual aspects of Vaapad, he was only taught the basic lightsaber maneuvers of the form.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but I haven't seen much evidence of his excessive skill with Vaapad in terms of lightsaber combat. I think its important we make a distinction here, I fully recognize Vos as a master of the mental aspect of the form, but his mastery or sufficient skill of the physical aspect does not seem apparent. Nonetheless I haven't used this as the basis for any of my previous points, I just thought I'd mention it. Regardless Vaapad remains weak concerning defense.

P.S. We have to remember that in his duel with Bulq, Vos was wounded by Bulq and effectively defeated. However in a moment of clarity Vos conquered his inner darkness and struck him down, largely because Bulq had let down his defenses. This is something Savage would likely not do.

Beniboybling · May 30, 2013

You are failing to account for the ones that went and attacked Kenobi and Anakin some came from the direction that we saw Savage at..... so no we cant assume anything as we did see Kenobi and Anakin block a few bolts from that direction..... and at :50 like I said he blocked about 10 shooters.... for about 2 seconds and then got hit by the 11th or 12th shot fired. And that was pure defense.... where his staff would be vunerable.... and his body is vunerable when he is attacking......http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlJiphrbLyg pretend ventress's fists are a lightsaber because that's the way an ataru user is going to move if he is attacking that's how he dies.

Even blocking multiple head-on wont break Vos, Ataru uses ALL of the physically enhancing force powers this includes strength.... again he wont falture against such an unskilled opponent in such a large space with out falling to the ONLY weakness of ataru exhaustion.

Also you can see multiple of kenobi's maneuvers being ataru based even much of the defense in that fight including dodging and he was highly aggressive against both maul and savage in that fight and you seem to forget the main part of what you just said here let me highlight it (However we should note the nature of Soresu, it is not entirely defensive but is all about waiting your enemy out and striking at the right moment i.e. kicking Savage's leg) the specific word here that is correct is WAITING. Soresu masters make no attacks at all and just minimize energy loss while letting the enemy lose as much energy as possible wearing themselves out before making attacks. The attacking of savages legs and the overall aggressiveness of Kenobi in this fight means that no he isn't using soresu because if he did.... he would have died he would not be able to outlast 2 opponents and he knew it his only hope was to quickly defeat the weaker of the 2 allowing either himself or forcing his opponents to retreat, something he succeeded in. Ultimately you are correct the large difference here is Vos has more room to work with and only a single opponent meaning the Soresu defenses are unneccisary to keep him alive and his great skill with ataru will be more then enough.

And I don't know about him not being skilled enough to do so Sidious is a terrible example.... sidious was not trying to win that fight he was trying to break maul.... he turned off his sabers and dodged savage with ease its possible he was just waiting for Maul to recover so that he could force maul to watch the death of his brother while being helpless to stop this..... to support this after pushing Savage off he doesn't try to intercept Maul he lets him go.... Sidious loves to break peoples psyche and as he doesn't want maul dead he wants him broken this would be the perfect way to do so.... thus the sidious fight.....not really a good one to use for this debate.

Actually I did take the droids attacking Anakin and Kenobi it account, however they destroy all the droids attacking them while as the droids get closer we see another shot of 10 B1 battle droids and droidekas attacking Savage. Its possible that for a small amount of time 1 or 2 (given that we see Kenobi attack a max of two bolts from an unknown location) were attacking the Jedi, but they quickly diverted their attention to Savage. But anyway, I'll leave Aurbere to decide what that displays concerning Savage's ability. We should note however that even if Vos manages to land a few more hits, the damage will be minor. Even without his blade his body is far from vulnerable - pretty evident from the fact that the bolts that do get through - which in the end is all of them - do no damage whatsoever.

And I'm not about to pretend Ventress' fists are lightsabers, because the style is completely different. Else surely she would have just killed him with her lightsaber instead? Its much easier/quicker to strike with a fist or a foot than a lightsaber because it requires less flourish so to speak, as the 'weapon' is much smaller. She'd have to have miniature shotos to pull of such moves.

And concerning Ataru, its only weakness is not just exhaustion. That's not the only reason Qui-Gon was killed by Maul, lack of mobility was also one of the reasons. It effectively robbed Qui-Gon of both is offensive and defensive manoeuvres and forced to him to block the attacks head-on. This is something Ataru is simply not designed to do. See here. Qui-Gon attempts to block Maul's attack, and his block his easily batted away - resulting in his death. And this is an Ataru specialist who favored strength over speed. Now of course we have to take into account Qui-Gon's exhaustion, which thanks to Vaapad will be a non-factor, but I think that can be substituted with Savage's overwhelming power.

Now concerning Soresu, I must admit I find it quite absurd that you can hold Kenobi would have died if he hadn't used Ataru in his duel against Maul and Savage, because frankly its impossible. If Kenobi had not employed his skill with Soresu throughout that battle, he would have died. Soresu is designed to counter multiple opponents, I have the Jedi Path right here and under 'Soresu' there is a picture of a Jedi holding off two Sith attacking her from either side. On the other hand Ataru is notoriously weak against multiple opponents, evident from the fact that Qui-Gon Jinn schooled his Padawan in a duel, but once his second Padawan joined the fray he has quickly disarmed. Likewise if Kenobi did not have his knowledge of Soresu to draw on and in particular his moving meditation, he would have been killed in short order.

Now in that battle he does seem to be using Ataru, however I can assure you his Soresu is still being used as defense. In particular Kenobi's skill with moving meditation allowed him to prevent either Maul or Savage from fighting back, notice how he alternates between the two, dancing back and forth and perfectly positioning himself to deflect their attacks. This is what prevented him from being wailed on by Savage's brute strength or Maul's aggressive attack, his impeccable defense - an advantage Vos would not have in his battle.

So if Vos had been in Kenobi's position. A combined attack from both Savage and Maul would have overwhelmed him - so I do not think a comparison can really be made.

EDIT: And I think Kenobi was waiting Savage out. Yes he was attacking a lot but the basic tactic remained the same. Wait Savage out by dodging/blocking/deflecting his attacks while periodicly kicking his leg, when he tires from fatigue capitalize on this weakness and strike. His plan wasn't just: attack, attack, attack, kill. Which is the basic strategy of an Ataru user.

And concerning Sidious, yes he was toying with him but I'm not referring to the moment when Savage was alone. I'm referring to

moment. Allowing Savage to strike that blow would only bolster morale and make them fight harder, Sidious had nothing to gain from allowing this hit. Clearly he was distracted by Maul allowing Savage to catch him off guard, we cannot simply say 'he was toying with them' to explain every single advantage they managed to get on him. However Vos is no Sidious, and if slammed against a wall in a similar manner to Gallia, I see no reason why he would not be impaled on Savage's spikes if he chose to charge. Edited May 30, 2013 by Beniboybling

Beniboybling · May 30, 2013

And pretty much this to support the idea that going for the weaker points of amputation in savage's defenses to be likely and Lightning could come into play here to slow savage down long enough to hit with a quick vapaad strike.... its just so many ways to overcome savages offenses and defenses and Vos is pretty much the perfect storm of abilities to do so..... I just don't see him getting exhausted before either amputating one or more limbs of savage and or destroying the staff.... Savages blows are far to inaccurate to hit an ataru master of Vos's caliber.

See above post for full thing.

Vos won't be exhausted, he'll be overwhelmed and killed. Simply put. Nor is Vos by any means the perfect match for Savage. That I would give to Obi-Wan Kenobi who can easily hold out against Savage's power attacks (thanks to his impregnable defense) wait Savage out and when his rage or fatigue causes him to slip up, deal the killing blow.

On the other hand a Jedi lacking in the defensive dept. and in particular possessing no form able to block a head-on attack, is not going to far well against an opponent who specialises in overwhelming and breaking weak defenses by forcing them to take head-on attacks.

You say that Savage's blows are too inaccurate to hit an Ataru master of Vos' caliber. But surely Savage's blows (in their adolescent state) are far too inaccurate to hit a Makashi master (or rather THE Makashi master) of Dooku's caliber, and yet... skadoosh. Now apply a little imagination to

, followed by

And we have the outcome of this battle. In my humble opinion.

EDIT: Also I'm not so much saying that Vos isn't prepared to deal a more lethal mark of contact to Savage but that he won't be able to without wearing Savage down first. The disparity between their abilities are not that large.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Beniboybling

Aurbere · May 30, 2013

If I may point out something regarding the ability to dodge Savage's attacks. There should be no question that Quinlan Vos can dodge many of Savage's attacks.

As we see in 'The Sith Hunters,' Plo Koon easily dodges Savage's attack and strikes his leg. Note that Djem So users are often referred to as slow, but this could give validity to the wiki claim that Plo Koon is trained in Ataru.

Based on this evidence, it is highly likely that Vos could dodge many of Savage's attacks.

Now regarding Savage's defense. I have no doubt that he can put up a strong defense, but note that he is vulnerable if an enemy dodges his attack.

Beniboybling · May 30, 2013

If I may point out something regarding the ability to dodge Savage's attacks. There should be no question that Quinlan Vos can dodge many of Savage's attacks.

As we see in 'The Sith Hunters,' Plo Koon easily dodges Savage's attack and strikes his leg. Note that Djem So users are often referred to as slow, but this could give validity to the wiki claim that Plo Koon is trained in Ataru.

Based on this evidence, it is highly likely that Vos could dodge many of Savage's attacks.

Now regarding Savage's defense. I have no doubt that he can put up a strong defense, but note that he is vulnerable if an enemy dodges his attack.

I'd also like to point out that Savage then proceeds to rip off Plo Koon's mask. Dirty tactics I know but substitute that for a punch in the face or the gut and we have Vos staggering away, raising his blade just in time to block and incoming attack... and KAPOW! Vos has just been knocked back and disarmed and its about to die.

Oh and query: if Koon 'struck' Savage's leg... how come it wasn't severed? Did the blade just not cut through his armour or was it a kick or something?

Nevertheless I have taken this into account, and my general response is: it only takes one hit.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Beniboybling

Aurbere · May 30, 2013

I'd also like to point out that Savage then proceeds to rip off Plo Koon's mask. Dirty tactics I know but substitute that for a punch in the face or the gut and we have Vos staggering away, raising his blade just in time to block and incoming attack... and KAPOW! Vos has just been knocked back and disarmed and its about to die.

Oh and query: if Koon 'struck' Savage's leg... how come it wasn't severed? Did the blade just not cut through his armour or was it a kick or something?

First, Plo Koon was defending a clone from Savage's attack. Basically, Savage's rear blade was about to strike a clone, and Plo Koon attempted to block it, thus giving Savage ample opportunity to remove Plo's mask.

Plo Koon's lightsaber grazed the side of Savage's leg, aound the calf and knee area. Judging from the image (which isn't the most detailed), Plo's attack did hit Savage, but not very deep (akin to Dooku vs. Obi-Wan in AOTC). Savage was able to continue fighting.

The fight went down like this: Plo Koon attempts to overpower Savage, but it doesn't pan out, so he resorts to dodging Savage's attacks. He catches Savage on the leg. A clone trooper apparently tries to intervene, which results in him getting killed. In Plo Koon's attempt to save the trooper, Savage rips off Plo's mask.

Beniboybling · May 30, 2013

First, Plo Koon was defending a clone from Savage's attack. Basically, Savage's rear blade was about to strike a clone, and Plo Koon attempted to block it, thus giving Savage ample opportunity to remove Plo's mask.

Plo Koon's lightsaber grazed the side of Savage's leg, aound the calf and knee area. Judging from the image (which isn't the most detailed), Plo's attack did hit Savage, but not very deep (akin to Dooku vs. Obi-Wan in AOTC). Savage was able to continue fighting.

The fight went down like this: Plo Koon attempts to overpower Savage, but it doesn't pan out, so he resorts to dodging Savage's attacks. He catches Savage on the leg. A clone trooper apparently tries to intervene, which results in him getting killed. In Plo Koon's attempt to save the trooper, Savage rips off Plo's mask.

Ha, damn clones... but anyway what's important here is that Koon's blow to his leg didn't hinder him. As I said before Savage can take damage, even lightsaber strikes, and just keep on fighting. This is evidence of that. Likewise even if Vos manages to bypass Savage's sturdy defense, his attacks will be absorbed by Savage's armour and natural endurance. Let's remember this armour is very thick and imbued with Nightsister magics.

Even though its possible that Vos could amputate Savage, this cannot be ignored as a significant advantage. Savage is effectively immune to minor blows, while Vos is far from it. So Vos cannot wear Savage down and then deal a mortal wound. He'll have to be patient and strike at the opportune moment, unfortunately for him he doesn't have that kind of time.

I mean, take Savage's duel with Kenobi. If we strip away Soresu and remove Maul, the fight would have gone much differently. First notice Kenobi's tactic, weaken Savage not go in guns blazing and attempt to chop his head off. Weaken him and then exploit that weakness to say, amputate his arm. And it worked. However if we remove Soresu and Maul from that equation then suddenly Kenobi can't deflect his counter attacks so easily. In response to a kick Savage responds in kind and with greater effect. Its far more likely that Savage will land a blow on Kenobi before Kenobi breaks his leg. Likewise its far more likely that Savage will incapacitate Vos in some shape or form before he manages to wear down Savage and strike a killing blow. Savage's duel with Adi Gallia is a demonstration of this, she didn't have the advantage of Soresu to hold of Savage's attack, to wait him out, she was overwhelmed by Savage before she could sufficiently weaken him.

Now this isn't directed at you Aurbere, just making a general argument.

tunewalker · May 30, 2013

Actually I did take the droids attacking Anakin and Kenobi it account, however they destroy all the droids attacking them while as the droids get closer we see another shot of 10 B1 battle droids and droidekas attacking Savage. Its possible that for a small amount of time 1 or 2 (given that we see Kenobi attack a max of two bolts from an unknown location) were attacking the Jedi, but they quickly diverted their attention to Savage. But anyway, I'll leave Aurbere to decide what that displays concerning Savage's ability. We should note however that even if Vos manages to land a few more hits, the damage will be minor. Even without his blade his body is far from vulnerable - pretty evident from the fact that the bolts that do get through - which in the end is all of them - do no damage whatsoever.

And I'm not about to pretend Ventress' fists are lightsabers, because the style is completely different. Else surely she would have just killed him with her lightsaber instead? Its much easier/quicker to strike with a fist or a foot than a lightsaber because it requires less flourish so to speak, as the 'weapon' is much smaller. She'd have to have miniature shotos to pull of such moves.

And concerning Ataru, its only weakness is not just exhaustion. That's not the only reason Qui-Gon was killed by Maul, lack of mobility was also one of the reasons. It effectively robbed Qui-Gon of both is offensive and defensive manoeuvres and forced to him to block the attacks head-on. This is something Ataru is simply not designed to do. See here. Qui-Gon attempts to block Maul's attack, and his block his easily batted away - resulting in his death. And this is an Ataru specialist who favored strength over speed. Now of course we have to take into account Qui-Gon's exhaustion, which thanks to Vaapad will be a non-factor, but I think that can be substituted with Savage's overwhelming power.

Now concerning Soresu, I must admit I find it quite absurd that you can hold Kenobi would have died if he hadn't used Ataru in his duel against Maul and Savage, because frankly its impossible. If Kenobi had not employed his skill with Soresu throughout that battle, he would have died. Soresu is designed to counter multiple opponents, I have the Jedi Path right here and under 'Soresu' there is a picture of a Jedi holding off two Sith attacking her from either side. On the other hand Ataru is notoriously weak against multiple opponents, evident from the fact that Qui-Gon Jinn schooled his Padawan in a duel, but once his second Padawan joined the fray he has quickly disarmed. Likewise if Kenobi did not have his knowledge of Soresu to draw on and in particular his moving meditation, he would have been killed in short order.

Now in that battle he does seem to be using Ataru, however I can assure you his Soresu is still being used as defense. In particular Kenobi's skill with moving meditation allowed him to prevent either Maul or Savage from fighting back, notice how he alternates between the two, dancing back and forth and perfectly positioning himself to deflect their attacks. This is what prevented him from being wailed on by Savage's brute strength or Maul's aggressive attack, his impeccable defense - an advantage Vos would not have in his battle.

So if Vos had been in Kenobi's position. A combined attack from both Savage and Maul would have overwhelmed him - so I do not think a comparison can really be made.

EDIT: And I think Kenobi was waiting Savage out. Yes he was attacking a lot but the basic tactic remained the same. Wait Savage out by dodging/blocking/deflecting his attacks while periodicly kicking his leg, when he tires from fatigue capitalize on this weakness and strike. His plan wasn't just: attack, attack, attack, kill. Which is the basic strategy of an Ataru user.

And concerning Sidious, yes he was toying with him but I'm not referring to the moment when Savage was alone. I'm referring to
moment. Allowing Savage to strike that blow would only bolster morale and make them fight harder, Sidious had nothing to gain from allowing this hit. Clearly he was distracted by Maul allowing Savage to catch him off guard, we cannot simply say 'he was toying with them' to explain every single advantage they managed to get on him. However Vos is no Sidious, and if slammed against a wall in a similar manner to Gallia, I see no reason why he would not be impaled on Savage's spikes if he chose to charge.

You failed to see my point on ventress's fists I was specifically saying that the way she moves when she is unarmed is the way an ataru master moves and strikes. She cant/wont do it with her saber because she isn't an ataru master.... she uses makashi and like with dooku its not known for high acrobatic dodges but minimalist movements and foot work the reason why its weak against power blows because it actually takes them.....this is not the case for ataru at and the lightsaber is incredibly light the blade doesn't have any weight it would add next to nothing to it.

Ok you bringing up the full block of ataru.... I should have been more clear 1. If Kenobi can block savage blow one handed when he isn't enraged..... an ataru master wont have an issue with it with 2 hands the only time savage has EVER thrown someone off their feet was when he was pumped up on rage something we know wont help him here do to Vos's Vaapad. 2. You are correct in saying closed spaces are a problem for ataru users....... but look around at the arena.....there is no enclosed space he has more then enough room to work with thus the only issue that the ataru master will face HERE is exhaustion with out it he wont eat any of savages hits head on.

Again I think you fail to see the difference between WAITING and actively trying to create an opening the second is what Kenobi was doing not the first. Soresu has been slighted time and time again for being to passive.... there was nothing but aggression in his form when he fought the 2..... also Ataru is not actually known for pushing an offensive that would belong to Djem so.... while its known for counter striking pushing the offensive is a Form VII and a Djem So thing not Ataru. Which would fall under the other category.... is ataru aggressive yes....... does it have a weak defense in an open area.... hell no.

And we aren't putting him in that position you failed to understand the last part of that specifically I said you were right..... but the difference here is Vos is dealing with only the lesser opponent in this situation and with even more room to work with thus the little soresu that Kenobi used would be unneccisary and make the battle take longer then it needs to, ataru's defenses will be more then enough and with precision training and the unpredictability of Vaapad means Vos can end this nice and quick.

Edited May 30, 2013 by tunewalker

tunewalker · May 30, 2013

Ha, damn clones... but anyway what's important here is that Koon's blow to his leg didn't hinder him. As I said before Savage can take damage, even lightsaber strikes, and just keep on fighting. This is evidence of that. Likewise even if Vos manages to bypass Savage's sturdy defense, his attacks will be absorbed by Savage's armour and natural endurance. Let's remember this armour is very thick and imbued with Nightsister magics.

Even though its possible that Vos could amputate Savage, this cannot be ignored as a significant advantage. Savage is effectively immune to minor blows, while Vos is far from it. So Vos cannot wear Savage down and then deal a mortal wound. He'll have to be patient and strike at the opportune moment, unfortunately for him he doesn't have that kind of time.

I mean, take Savage's duel with Kenobi. If we strip away Soresu and remove Maul, the fight would have gone much differently. First notice Kenobi's tactic, weaken Savage not go in guns blazing and attempt to chop his head off. Weaken him and then exploit that weakness to say, amputate his arm. And it worked. However if we remove Soresu and Maul from that equation then suddenly Kenobi can't deflect his counter attacks so easily. In response to a kick Savage responds in kind and with greater effect. Its far more likely that Savage will land a blow on Kenobi before Kenobi breaks his leg. Likewise its far more likely that Savage will incapacitate Vos in some shape or form before he manages to wear down Savage and strike a killing blow. Savage's duel with Adi Gallia is a demonstration of this, she didn't have the advantage of Soresu to hold of Savage's attack, to wait him out, she was overwhelmed by Savage before she could sufficiently weaken him.

Now this isn't directed at you Aurbere, just making a general argument.

Koon has only some training in ataru.... Vos training full in ataru and has much greater skill and thanks to makashi training precision as well while employing his ataru... if Koon managed to dodge and scratch Savage ..... Vos severes the leg completely as he has greater skill in that particular tactic than koon does.....

Also to reiterate the difference is Soresu does not repeat DOES NOT actively try to weaken an opponent it waits for the opponent to do so to themselves, hitting the leg to weaken savage is not a soresu tactic waiting for it to give way of its own accord would be but he wasn't waiting he was active, activity or aggression suggest ataru from obi-wans arsenal not soresu.

Also dancing between the 2 opponents allowed him to do the one neccissary thing for ataru to stay in motion had he not injured savage he would have lost do to exhaustion to Maul.

Again see above for the full thing.

Edit: ok off to work.... and again don't forget that in addition to all this we still aren't even taking Vos's force lightning into account like I said there are a lot of ways for Vos to take control of this fight brute strength will not be enough to win off of.

Edited May 30, 2013 by tunewalker

Beniboybling · May 30, 2013

You failed to see my point on ventress's fists I was specifically saying that the way she moves when she is unarmed is the way an ataru master moves and strikes. She cant/wont do it with her saber because she isn't an ataru master.... she uses makashi and like with dooku its not known for high acrobatic dodges but minimalist movements and foot work the reason why its weak against power blows because it actually takes them.....this is not the case for ataru at and the lightsaber is incredibly light the blade doesn't have any weight it would add next to known to it.

Ok you bringing up the full block of ataru.... I should have been more clear 1. If Kenobi can block savage blow one handed when he isn't enraged..... an ataru master wont have an issue with it with 2 hands the only time savage has EVER thrown someone off their feet was when he was pumped up on rage something we know wont help him here do to Vos's Vaapad. 2. You are correct in saying closed spaces are a problem for ataru users....... but look around at the arena.....there is no enclosed space he has more then enough room to work with thus the only issue that the ataru master will face HERE is exhaustion with out it he wont eat any of savages hits head on.

Again I think you fail to see the difference between WAITING and actively trying to create an opening the second is what Kenobi was doing not the first. Soresu has been slighted time and time again for being to passive.... there was nothing but aggression in his form when he fought the 2..... also Ataru is not actually known for pushing an offensive that would belong to Djem so.... while its known for counter striking pushing the offensive is a Form VII and a Djem So thing not Ataru. Which would fall under the other category.... is ataru aggressive yes....... does it have a weak defense in an open area.... hell no.

And we aren't putting him in that position you failed to understand the last part of that specifically I said you were right..... but the difference here is Vos is dealing with only the lesser opponent in this situation and with even more room to work with thus the little soresu that Kenobi used would be unneccisary and make the battle take longer then it needs to, ataru's defenses will be more then enough and with precision training and the unpredictability of Vaapad means Vos can end this nice and quick.

I would be hesitant to grant Vos a speed advantage over Ventress, no her form is not specifically geared towards it but she is an extremely agile duelist nonetheless. As was the Jedi Master he fought on Devaron and easily evaded. Either way, regardless of form it still remains a fact that lightsabers simply do not operate in the same way as punches or kicks, they are simply too large to be that maneuverable. Hence why in all lightsaber duels punches and kicks always land on their targets whereas lightsabers are always blocked or parried. And I think the way in which he defeated the Jedi Master on Devaron, effectively evading him, is testament to his ability to handle agile attacks. I'm not saying he'll dodge all of Vos' attacks, but he won't be easily overwhelmed.

And concerning blocking 1. true but we should definitely take into account the fact that Kenobi has effectively already been knocked to the ground and therefore cannot be knocked back. If we were standing the full weight of their combine attacked would have knocked him off his feet. Indeed this would suggest so. Yes he's pumped on rage but then again Savage is always pumped on a degree of rage as in

'battle' he performs similar if not more impressive feats. Knocking soldiers and Jedi off their feet and into the air. I think this is less rage and more simply strength. And we should also remember that much of the power Vos gains from Vaapad will go into maintaining his Ataru which is incredibly taxing on the user and advisable only in short bursts. (Note that Kenobi and Qui-Gon favored power over acrobatics hence why they lasted longer) not much is going to go into bolstering his strength and speed but simply maintaining stamina. As Wookieepedia says:

This form was also considered not as effective for prolonged combat, as the nature of Ataru could greatly tax the body. Ataru practitioners were advised to withdraw if they were unable to win after a devastating burst of Ataru attacks.

2. Pretty sure I made no mention of closed spaces, I'm aware that its a non-factor. Unless Vos were to tactically retreat into the dense undergrowth below.

And concerning Kenobi, its a Soresu/Ataru hybrid. No he's not just defending and waiting for his opponent to tire, but nor is he just attacking, attacking, attacking in the hope of breaking down their defenses. He is waiting for fatigue to kick him, but accelerating that process with periodic precision kicks to Savage's leg. A pure Ataru user would just attack, attack, attack, making no attempt to enduce fatigue in their opponent and just hoping to break through their opponents defenses and kill them. And then of course Kenobi was using moving meditation as well, that's the only possible explanation for him being able to tackle multiple opponents which even an Ataru master of Qui-Gon's level could not overcome with Ataru alone.

And Ataru is inherently an attack form, more so than Djem So. Djem So is attack, defend, immediate counter-attack, often using the movement of their opponents blow to fuel their own attack. Ataru on the other hand is just attack, attack, attack, focused on overwhelming ones opponent as quickly as possible and forcing then on the defensive. Sacrificing a strong defense in the hope that their enemy will be unable to push back. And if they do minimizing the impact through evasion. Again to quote Wookieepedia:

Ataru was an aggressive combat form relying on a combination of power, strength, and speed. Due to this, it was also called the Way of the Hawk-bat or the Aggression Form. Practitioners of Ataru were always on the offensive, attacking with wide, fast, and powerful swings.

Now I'm not at all saying its weak in terms of defensive in an open area. But it is weak in terms of blocking, else when restricted of mobility the form would not fail. And I find it hard to believe that Vos will be able to evade all Savage's attacks, and this is the crux of my argument, because a single attack could be sufficient to incapacitate Vos - if he is forced to block it in full. All Savage needs to do is stagger Vos to perform such an attack, and that could take the form of a physical attack which Savage is more than capable of dishing out.

The BattleZone Reboot Round 1 Match 08: Quinlan Vos vs. Savage Opress

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