Why don't tanks actually tank?

[benovide]

I have a Jugg, and now a Guardian as well (both DS focused, of course)

 

I have noticed, that so many people take Tank classes, and focus purely on dps, and totaly ignore their tanking focus. Making them literally useless as tanks in FPs, and Heroics, they don't do nearly as much damage as the DPS focused classes, so essentially they are wasted slots on the team.

 

WHy do people castrate themselves in tank classes? If they wanted to be DPSers, why not grabe the DPS versions? It's irritating.

 

Playing WoW, STO, GW, I'm very well aware of the role of tanks. If people want to be tanks and focus on FPs and PVE Heroics where you need a TEAM, they screw the team over so badly. Why do it?

Edited May 23, 2013 by benovide

[Rynis]

So the only dps we should see are sentinels and gunslingers?

 

Because sages/commandos/scoundrels should be healing.

[SW_display_name]

DPS specs of Tank classes do just fine DPS if played properly, certainly more than enough for any Flashpoint. I've also met plenty of Marauders / Snipers doing middling or mediocre DPS because they don't understand their class.

 

You can also queue "Tank / DPS" and be given DPS by the queue — it happens quite often as a Tank class, in my experience.

 

Perhaps the next question is: Why don't people who complain about other people's spec choices actually collect parses and post data supporting their highly-suspect claims?

[Stormskimmer]

I have a Jugg, and now a Guardian as well (both DS focused, of course)

 

I have noticed, that so many people take Tank classes, and focus purely on dps, and totaly ignore their tanking focus. Making them literally useless as tanks in FPs, and Heroics, they don't do nearly as much damage as the DPS focused classes, so essentially they are wasted slots on the team.

 

WHy do people castrate themselves in tank classes? If they wanted to be DPSers, why not grabe the DPS versions? It's irritating.

 

Playing WoW, STO, GW, I'm very well aware of the role of tanks. If people want to be tanks and focus on FPs and PVE Heroics where you need a TEAM, they screw the team over so badly. Why do it?

 

 

Short answer:

 

Tank classes in DPS trees DO deal about as much damage as DPS focused classes.

Also, Heal classes in DPS trees deal about as much damage as DPS focused classes.

 

Sure, sometimes a class might be underperforming or overperforming, but that's something to be fixed.

[Wanchope]

I have a guardian and I play both roles. I have two sets of gear, and I can respec on the fly thanks to something I grabbed with Cartel coins.

 

When I play as a DPS (vigilance), my DPS is as good as any other DPS out there. Sure, some gunslinger might squeeze out a few more DPS then me, but only if they are really good. But my DPS is 100% viable as a guardian and the same applies to Shadows and Vanguards. Remember, its the skill tree as much as the class that determines your role in this game.

[Kitru]

WHy do people castrate themselves in tank classes? If they wanted to be DPSers, why not grabe the DPS versions?

 

There is no hybrid tax and never has been. Hell, I can't really recall *any* MMOs that still have a hybrid tax (WoW hasn't even had it since vanilla ended). If you honestly think there is one, it's because you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Darth_Dreselus]

Tanks do tank. Non tank tree speced toons are not tanks.

[Raji_Lev]

Just about everything there is to say has already been said, so...

 

BRB, re-speccing my tank characters to DPSers just to tweak the OP.

[Hockaday]

There is no hybrid tax and never has been. Hell, I can't really recall *any* MMOs that still have a hybrid tax (WoW hasn't even had it since vanilla ended). If you honestly think there is one, it's because you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Yeah...no.

If you go into the immortal tree say, half way up...you will be an improper dps. Would you want a Hybrid Heal / DPS sorc? (certain conditions with standing)? No. Now, if you Hybrid two dps trees, like my sorc...then yes, good times are had by all.

[Marb]

Yeah...no.

If you go into the immortal tree say, half way up...you will be an improper dps. Would you want a Hybrid Heal / DPS sorc? (certain conditions with standing)? No. Now, if you Hybrid two dps trees, like my sorc...then yes, good times are had by all.

 

Hybrid tax refers to classes which have access to a tank or healing skill tree in addition to a dps skill tree. In the vanilla days of WoW these classes were known as hybrids and had certain drawbacks put in place on their dps and healing/tanking, with the freedom to choose between two roles as the justification for performing below par in any of their roles.

 

For example, if this game had a hybrid tax, juggernauts would not be viable using their full dps trees to fill the role of a dps in a group, as it would be intentionally balanced that way because they had the option of being tanks. Sometimes it seems like there is a hybrid tax, but that is just down to balancing issues and a lack of foresight on the devs part.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Marb

[benovide]

I have run Parses playing with groups.

 

A full DPS build Juggernaut, at level 50. Does almost 3/5ths the damage of a Marauder with full DPS spec.

 

Found the same results with Assassin vs Sorc. BUT, the Sorc was nearly equal, only 7/8's weaker.

 

In Vanguard vs Commando, Vanguard does 2/5ths less DPS than Commando.

 

If done full tank on Vanguard, then it's only half of Commandos DPS.

Edited May 24, 2013 by benovide

[Kitru]

A full DPS build Juggernaut, at level 50. Does almost 3/5ths the damage of a Marauder with full DPS spec.

 

If you're seeing such massive vacillation as this (like you claim to see between DPS VGs and Commandos), you're doing it wrong. If you're doing 60% of the damage of a Marauder, rather than complaining about it, try actually making sure you're playing the spec correctly. I'm also curious why you bring up comparing a tank VG to a DPS Commando. that just makes no sense.

 

Found the same results with Assassin vs Sorc. BUT, the Sorc was nearly equal, only 7/8's weaker.

 

Shadows are a "hybrid" class just as much as Sages since Shadows can tank, so I'm not entirely sure what you were trying to bring up here since it's entirely counter to the point you're trying to make.

[Nailkita]

I have run Parses playing with groups.

 

A full DPS build Juggernaut, at level 50. Does almost 3/5ths the damage of a Marauder with full DPS spec.

 

Found the same results with Assassin vs Sorc. BUT, the Sorc was nearly equal, only 7/8's weaker.

 

In Vanguard vs Commando, Vanguard does 2/5ths less DPS than Commando.

 

If done full tank on Vanguard, then it's only half of Commandos DPS.

 

Under the OP's logic, the Commando and Sorc shouldn't have been doing dmg anyways...

In groups I've been in I've seen no issues regardless of what AC the dps are, infact I've had plenty of issues with dps only AC hurting the group, while the Jugs and Sins are killing things just fine. (haven't run into many powertechs dpsing, but I assume they're fine as well).

[Targarion]

I have run Parses playing with groups.

 

A full DPS build Juggernaut, at level 50. Does almost 3/5ths the damage of a Marauder with full DPS spec.

 

Found the same results with Assassin vs Sorc. BUT, the Sorc was nearly equal, only 7/8's weaker.

 

In Vanguard vs Commando, Vanguard does 2/5ths less DPS than Commando.

 

If done full tank on Vanguard, then it's only half of Commandos DPS.

 

Vanguards before patch 2.0 where one of the best if not thee best dps classes in the game. Whether or not a class has a tank or a heal tree in it's selection has nothing to do with the output of dps that class can generate.

 

The best dps on my server is a freaking Guardian focus spec. I would take a skilled dps guardian or vanguard over a bad pure dps class any day.

[SW_display_name]

I have run Parses playing with groups.

 

A full DPS build Juggernaut, at level 50. Does almost 3/5ths the damage of a Marauder with full DPS spec.

 

Found the same results with Assassin vs Sorc. BUT, the Sorc was nearly equal, only 7/8's weaker.

 

In Vanguard vs Commando, Vanguard does 2/5ths less DPS than Commando.

 

If done full tank on Vanguard, then it's only half of Commandos DPS.

Let's get some details on your data. Is this simmed? Are you observing properly geared, properly spec'd hybrid classes performing their rotation under optimum conditions on a training dummy, then comparing an equalized pure DPS class on the same target?

 

Or are you just pulling arbitrary data from your personal / anecdotal experiences, possibly heavily tainted by your own observer bias hunting for the results you expect to see?

 

Because I think the burden of proof is on you here, since you're going up against a fairly overwhelming majority saying their anecdotal experiences (and/or parse, and/or sim data) indicate that DPS-spec'd Tank classes do "fine" DPS. Sometimes exceptional, if played well.

 

And also, because I can do the same thing and break your point by just pulling out of my pocket the following "facts":

• I've seen a Sniper do 3/5ths of the damage of an Assassin in DPS spec
  
• I've seen a Marauder do 1/5th of the damage of a Marauder who knew how to play their class
  

 

You're not wrong for questioning something, even if your question seems ludicrous to us. But you're going to have to provide more compelling arguments than what you have, to compete with what we perceive as overwhelming evidence contradicting your claims.

[selios]

I have run Parses playing with groups.

 

A full DPS build Juggernaut, at level 50. Does almost 3/5ths the damage of a Marauder with full DPS spec.

 

Found the same results with Assassin vs Sorc. BUT, the Sorc was nearly equal, only 7/8's weaker.

 

In Vanguard vs Commando, Vanguard does 2/5ths less DPS than Commando.

 

If done full tank on Vanguard, then it's only half of Commandos DPS.

 

When you live in your own personal la la land reality can be a serious pain....

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=615432

[Elzen]

Successful troll is successful.

[MilleniumSolo]

Pretty much. Unfortunately, some people have absolutely no idea what they're doing. That, and the fact that players who are clearly DPS oriented queue up for FPs as tanks. I just ran a Cademimu with a Sin Tank (he came in a bit late as the first tank DCed) that was using Surging Charge the entire time. It wasn't until we wiped at the boss because he couldn't hold aggro that I noticed. I mean, really? You're a tank that isn't even using your tank buff? Just stop. I hate to be mean, but there's no excuse for that.

[Mannam]

I have a Jugg, and now a Guardian as well (both DS focused, of course)

 

I have noticed, that so many people take Tank classes, and focus purely on dps, and totaly ignore their tanking focus. Making them literally useless as tanks in FPs, and Heroics, they don't do nearly as much damage as the DPS focused classes, so essentially they are wasted slots on the team.

 

WHy do people castrate themselves in tank classes? If they wanted to be DPSers, why not grabe the DPS versions? It's irritating.

 

Playing WoW, STO, GW, I'm very well aware of the role of tanks. If people want to be tanks and focus on FPs and PVE Heroics where you need a TEAM, they screw the team over so badly. Why do it?

 

Tanks in STO, if you mean Engineers in Cruisers aka Zombies. They are useless in their version of Flashpoints, its a DPS fest. Science Officers do well in ground at tanking.

 

There are no pure TANK classes, there are classes that can TANK and DPS. Depending on what Class that can multi-role are far from useless, sometimes things can go wrong. So having a DPS Sorcerer throwing some heals, or DPS Juggy switching forms, to Tank are a benefit to a group. There is only one tanking tree in the tanking classes, the other two are DPS. If you have field respec, extra gear you can have either a TANK or DPS slot in a group. A Pure DPS class is only going to be that role.

[Mannam]

Pretty much. Unfortunately, some people have absolutely no idea what they're doing. That, and the fact that players who are clearly DPS oriented queue up for FPs as tanks. I just ran a Cademimu with a Sin Tank (he came in a bit late as the first tank DCed) that was using Surging Charge the entire time. It wasn't until we wiped at the boss because he couldn't hold aggro that I noticed. I mean, really? You're a tank that isn't even using your tank buff? Just stop. I hate to be mean, but there's no excuse for that.

 

Seen that scenario many times, queues as DPS take forever and someone queues as a Tank. Then Healer has a hard time, threat is all over the place and it is a wipe waiting to happen. Do not queue as a Tank or Healer when your DPS spec, unless you can repsec and have alternate gear.

[JouerTue]

personally i brought 4 tanks and 3 healers to level cap, and the only hybrid i run was my sorc in single player. specced heals but points in madness tree to have death field, since it was great against mobs and i really didn't need all those heals for khem.

 

upgrading my playstyle i stopped to play single player with the healer companion and ,gearing a dps one, you progress as fast as on another char with more damage output. i do a lot of group content and overlevelling the planets makes the rest. so there was no need for respeccing and getting dps gear.

 

i tried a couple of hybrids in pvp but they don't fit at all for me. i prefer to stick to my role and making points taunting or healing.

 

 

pve content requires full specs/sets for me, and i've seen that a merc healer in support cells but dps spec can barely heal mando riders story mode's boarding party, and he wasn't missing any ability and i tanked really good.

 

overgeared healers can sustain 3 dps through HMs 50 though