Where are all the Powertech Tanks?

[Nailkita]

Even looking through these forums, all the posts about tanking are related to Jugg/Sin. Powertech forums are sparse as well.

 

I'm a healer, and I have to say in and out of pugs all I see are sin/jug tanks, where are you guys hiding, I want to know what to look out for when I'm healing you. I can honestly say I have not had a Powertech tank in 55 HM fps.

 

I know with a Jugg I can pretty much just roll hots and they'll be fine(operative), and I know with Sin I need to watch for spikey dmg. But what should I know about Powertechs when I'm healing them? In 2.0 how do they handle dmg, how do they handle aggro?

[Snarkasms]

We're here, and we're great. Same smooth damage profile from before like the new juggs, very little need for major spiky damage heals. Good rolling buffs on ourselves from heat screen, plus regular cooldowns like a normal shield, a quick get-back-to-30% health option, oil slick, etc. The shoulder missiles can also restore 20% health to us (5% per missile), so remind us to use that if you're having trouble maintaining us through stuns, since we can use them while controlled. Also remind us to use our hydraulic overrides/hold the line if you find one that forgets it and has trouble getting out of AOE or the shackles on Cademimu, for example.

 

Sun-bao loves being a powertech! It's just easy tanking as PT, so there's less to discuss, I suppose.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Snarkasms

[Nailkita]

Thanks for quick reply so I didn't lose my post

 

Thanks, that gives me a rough idea what to expect, I've been sad not to see all tanks in my fps runs, I suppose my view is skewed by our guild having only sin/jug tanks for ops atm as well.

 

I hope to run into more happy powertechs, I could use a few less sin tanks on my undergeared sorc healer too

[Kitru]

It's just easy tanking as PT, so there's less to discuss, I suppose.

 

I think a lot of what has happened is that VG tanks were almost completely untouched from a functional standpoint with the 2.0 chances, beyond the itemization changes. Their priority is mostly the same except that you now want to use Pulse Cannon during your ST rotation when a proc is up. Their CDs are still used in pretty much the same way, even with the moderate improvements. There just isn't much to discuss.

 

Of course, it should probably also be mentioned that, right now, VGs are kinda pointless because of where Guardians are at now. Before VGs were the simple, smooth damage profile tanks. Now, Guardians have that *same* smooth incoming damage profile and they're also *really* simple to play now so there isn't really anything that VGs really do better than anyone else. It's kinda problematic, as I see it, and it's one of the reasons why a lot of people that aren't attached specifically to one class (like the lot of us Shadow tanking number crunchers) have been fleeing their previous tank classes and picking up Guardian tanks.

[Darth_Dreselus]

I also find holding threat a bit more difficult, but it is hard to say as I have run with pretty large gear disparity, but unlike on my Jugg I have to use a taunt if aggro is ripped, whereas on Jugg a few high threat moves are sufficient. I do hope this ceases to bean issue once I get out of 63s. It could also be that in Vanilla I had to learn snap threat as a Jugg. This is also on trash only bosses are not an issue.

 

And as Kitru said VGs just do not have any aces, all they can do other tanks can do too and beyond. VGs are still good meat shields and perfectly viable.

 

Good for PvP though, Shoulder Cannon makes stealth caps pretty much impossible.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Darth_Dreselus

[Snarkasms]

I don't care as much about which class is OP at the moment, I play my powertech because it's fun! Rocket jumps, flame twirls, speed-procced flamethrower... lots of fun.

 

But yes, essentially no changes with 2.0 aside from the proc and the changes to heat screen. Still excellent tanks and easy to play, though.

[Kitru]

I don't care as much about which class is OP at the moment

 

The VG schtick was never "OPness". It was always simplicity and stability. Now, both of those are gone and Guardians also have more on top of that.

[ScytheEleven]

Could care less about what Jugs/Sins can do better.

 

Powertech tanking is amazingly fun to play.

Edited May 24, 2013 by ScytheEleven

[cidbahamut]

I don't care as much about which class is OP at the moment, I play my powertech because it's fun! Rocket jumps, flame twirls, speed-procced flamethrower... lots of fun.

 

You forgot Shoryuken.

[ellenbec]

Still tanking on my PT, still loving it.

 

As was said above, Rocket Jump Punches to the face, flame twirls, and sped up flamethrowersofdeath are too much fun.

 

I have though taken a step back in my Ops group as the MT, but that was moreso for our Jugg tank to get a better feel of MTing and round himself off better. Plus my AoE threat is better than his for picking up adds.

[Nailkita]

Must just be shadowlands I'll have to hunt some down, or the way you all make it sound I should roll my own

[Kitru]

Plus my AoE threat is better than his for picking up adds.

 

If his AoE threat isn't amazing enough to pick up adds, he's doing it wrong. Saber Reflect will generate *all* the AoE threat you need: 9k from the use and then even more from the reflected attacks. Saber Reflect will generate more threat, more reliably than Mortar Volley and will hit *way* more targets.

[grallmate]

If his AoE threat isn't amazing enough to pick up adds, he's doing it wrong. Saber Reflect will generate *all* the AoE threat you need: 9k from the use and then even more from the reflected attacks. Saber Reflect will generate more threat, more reliably than Mortar Volley and will hit *way* more targets.

 

I disagree here. Saber Reflect is ALL THAT when you pull a ranged group and have initial aggro. Mid boss fight for dealing with adds its not that awesome unless you tie it in with an AoE taunt or already have aggro on the mobs at which point its nice but not needed. Aside from that, most adds are either melee (Dash'Roode, Titan VI, Op IX), target randomly/aren't tanked (Operations Chief, Cartel Warlords, Dread Guard, The TFB, Kephess the Undying) or use AoE (Thrasher).

 

I can't actually think of any Ops fight where Saber Reflect wins out over Mortar Volley for useful AoE threat generation. As I've said before though, for trash its absolutely the best AoE tanking ability in the game.

[Kitru]

I can't actually think of any Ops fight where Saber Reflect wins out over Mortar Volley for useful AoE threat generation. As I've said before though, for trash its absolutely the best AoE tanking ability in the game.

 

The whole "9k threat with 30m radius" is what really gets it for me. That's 11.7k threat required to pull threat off of the target. With 3-4 DPS wailing on it, that's ~40k damage required before it even looks away from you. At the very least it buys you ~4-6 seconds before the DPS pulls. And that's assuming they're melee (and which point, they've had 4-6 seconds to run at you, which means they're likely to be in melee range of you so that you can bust out GS and FS to pump the threat up more). For little adds, Saber Reflect alone is more than enough and, for big adds, there aren't generally enough of them at one time to make it difficult to group them up effectively.

 

Mortar Volley is nice, but it's only got a 4m radius. Saber Reflect hits pretty much everything you're in combat with.

[grallmate]

The whole "9k threat with 30m radius" is what really gets it for me. That's 11.7k threat required to pull threat off of the target. With 3-4 DPS wailing on it, that's ~40k damage required before it even looks away from you. At the very least it buys you ~4-6 seconds before the DPS pulls. And that's assuming they're melee (and which point, they've had 4-6 seconds to run at you, which means they're likely to be in melee range of you so that you can bust out GS and FS to pump the threat up more). For little adds, Saber Reflect alone is more than enough and, for big adds, there aren't generally enough of them at one time to make it difficult to group them up effectively.

 

Mortar Volley is nice, but it's only got a 4m radius. Saber Reflect hits pretty much everything you're in combat with.

 

That's assuming someone doesn't put ~7k threat on any of them before you pop Reflect and also assuming all 4 DPS attack the add with the same constant DPS. Compare that to a Commando hitting Grav Round into a procced Full Auto and even if you had aggro from Reflect its up to crit chance as to if you hold aggro on that mob. Gunslinger with Speed Shot into Trickshot is the same. If the mobs are knocked down (for example by Mortar Volley or Forcequake) its even worse for Saber Reflect while it makes minimal difference for the Vanguard.

 

I know the math supports it being a great tool for the adds in isolation but in my experience, it doesn't seem to always turn the adds around if someone else has actually hit them. As I said, its AMAZING on the pull and awesome if you have aggro already on ranged enemies but in an Op and dealing with adds, it just doesn't hold up. I totally get your point, on paper and in isolation 9k threat is a lot it just doesn't actually translate into great add holding in a boss fight. At least not in any situation where you haven't or can't easily establish aggro without it.

[WillLongstick]

So much ragging on the PT. 2 and a half weeks and you'll see how much better they are against the high Force/Tech damage in NiM TFB. Juggs on the other hand, will have to hope Saber Reflect is up. Oh, and as it's been said many times over, it's just such a fun class to play.

 

And as far as Saber Reflect being used for AOE threat, you have to remember it's a defensive CD first, and threat generator second. Would you blow your Force Shroud just to pick up a pack of melee mobs that don't hit hard?

[Kitru]

So much ragging on the PT. 2 and a half weeks and you'll see how much better they are against the high Force/Tech damage in NiM TFB. Juggs on the other hand, will have to hope Saber Reflect is up.

 

That's actually not all that true. Guardians have 50% DR compared to a VG's 51%, so, even if there isn't a successful shield, there isn't going to be much of a difference in incoming damage. Even if you include the average variation between the two, Guardians have Blade Barrier which more than effectively smooths it out. VGs have an advantage in average passive F/T + K/E damage taken, but it's more than lost when you factor in the lack of CDs (Shadows have Resilience and Battle Readiness, Guardians have their entire slew of CDs that are effective, and VGs just have Reactive Shield) and Shadow self heals/Guardian absorb shield. All in all, there isn't really much that a VG does that isn't done better by another tank, including F/T + K/E.

 

And as far as Saber Reflect being used for AOE threat, you have to remember it's a defensive CD first, and threat generator second. Would you blow your Force Shroud just to pick up a pack of melee mobs that don't hit hard?

 

Well, since Resilience *doesn't* generate any threat, there's not really much point in asking, nor is it fair to delineate melee exclusive as well as not much damage since, if they're melee, Saber Reflect is, by design, less effective on its own (the comment about melee refers exclusively to their nature to group themselves up to allow for easier AoE threat generation which is counteracted by the reflected damage/threat that would be applied to ranged attackers; the construct means that they'll be functionally similar threat situations) and, if they don't deal appreciable damage, there isn't much point in tanking them in the first place (like the adds in the Dread Guard fight: there's no real point in tanking them because they're gonna be dead no matter what happens). There's also the fact that Resilience applies to *all* F/T attacks whereas Saber Reflect only applies to single target effects. If Saber Reflect were needed to reflect a single target attack like Terminate, I wouldn't bother. However, if it were a fight like Titan 6 I wouldn't even bat an eye at blowing Saber Reflect to get threat on the adds since there's not much else you're going to use Saber Reflect on anyways.

 

In short, it depends on the fight. Most of the fights where you need to get threat on adds are also fights where you *don't* need to hold on to Saber Reflect for survivability purposes. Just because it's nominally a survivability tool, it's simply idiotic to ignore its role as a very powerful threat generator. It's just like Force Pull/Harpoon: nominally, it's a tool to move a target around but, since it generates a large amount of threat, you would be doing yourself a disservice to use it *only* as an enemy placement tool.

[WillLongstick]

That's actually not all that true. Guardians have 50% DR compared to a VG's 51%, so, even if there isn't a successful shield, there isn't going to be much of a difference in incoming damage.

 

I would have thought so too, especially considering how they worked pre-2.0. Using KeyboardNinja stats I've run the survivability (with very, very standarized gearing, see here if that thread is viewable to public). Basically:

 

Force - 3155 DPS pre-mitigation (Normal damage levels in 2.0)

Sin: 1129 DTPS

PT: 1159 DTPS

Jugg: 1174 DTPS

 

Force - 6070 DPS pre-mitigation (Spike damage levels akin to NiM Kephess under 60%)

PT: 2229 DTPS

Jugg: 2370 DTPS

Sin: 2431 DTPS

 

It's the huge disparity in absorb and the 5% Damage Reduction from Flame Burst that pull PT's ahead of Jugg's Force Scream.

 

Well, since Resilience *doesn't* generate any threat, there's not really much point in asking, nor is it fair to delineate melee exclusive as well as not much damag.....

 

You missed the point of the hypothetical.

Edited May 25, 2013 by WillLongstick

[grallmate]

I would have thought so too, especially considering how they worked pre-2.0. Using KeyboardNinja stats I've run the survivability (with very, very standarized gearing, see here if that thread is viewable to public). Basically:

 

Force - 3155 DPS pre-mitigation (Normal damage levels in 2.0)

Sin: 1129 DTPS

PT: 1159 DTPS

Jugg: 1242 DTPS

 

Force - 6070 DPS pre-mitigation (Spike damage levels akin to NiM Kephess under 60%)

PT: 2229 DTPS

Sin: 2431 DTPS

Jugg: 2500 DTPS

 

It's the huge disparity in absorb and the 5% Damage Reduction from Flame Burst that pull PT's ahead of Jugg's Force Scream.

 

You're forgetting that unless you have 2 Guardian tanks, no Watchman Sentinels (and no specced Vanguard DPS) that Guardians still benefit from that. Similarly unless you run with 2 Vanguard tanks (and no specced Guardian DPS) the Vanguards get the benefit of the -5% accuracy, not that it matters for F/T damage. You've also overlooked the 5% F/T resistance Guardians get from Riposte.

 

Factoring in both of those I get Guardians at:

- 1109 DTPS with 3155 pre-mitigation DPS and

- 2245 DTPS with 6070 pre-mitigation DPS.

 

That puts them marginally ahead of Shadows at 3155 and slightly behind Vanguards at 6070 pre-mitigation DPS. It also means that at 3155 F/T DPS the tanks are within 5% of each other and with 11% of each other at 6070. I can completely understand why you might want to discount the -5% debuff when comparing the tank survivability profiles in isolation, but I find the situation where it is absent for Guardians to be rarer than the times it can be included, especially now that Watchman gets that benefit.

 

And as far as Saber Reflect being used for AOE threat, you have to remember it's a defensive CD first, and threat generator second. Would you blow your Force Shroud just to pick up a pack of melee mobs that don't hit hard?

 

If I had nothing else more useful to use it on in the next 60s: yes I would and I do.

[WillLongstick]

You've also overlooked the 5% F/T resistance Guardians get from Riposte.

 

That was a BIG mistake on my end, updated the above post. And yes, I only look at tanks in isolation. That's a more EC centered point of view where the tanks were isolated, and it looks more at what a specific class can bring to the Op.

[Kitru]

Force - 3155 DPS pre-mitigation (Normal damage levels in 2.0)

Sin: 1129 DTPS

PT: 1159 DTPS

Jugg: 1174 DTPS

 

Force - 6070 DPS pre-mitigation (Spike damage levels akin to NiM Kephess under 60%)

PT: 2229 DTPS

Jugg: 2370 DTPS

Sin: 2431 DTPS

 

It's the huge disparity in absorb and the 5% Damage Reduction from Flame Burst that pull PT's ahead of Jugg's Force Scream.

 

I'm not seeing this "huge disparity". I'm seeing *a* disparity, but it's a difference of 15 DtPS in the situations we're actually referring to (which we were talking about *average*, not spike, since that's what Saber Reflect and CDs are explicitly designed to help out with). Going with a spike damage as DPS using the 6k that happened in NiM Kephess while mathing it as pure F/T K/E is more than a bit disingenuous. Spike damage is explicitly what CDs are supposed to be used for and VGs just don't have those in a particularly effective quantity.

 

For sustained DPS, even in F/T situations, there's almost no difference (as I said and your number support). In spike F/T situations, VGs are actually at a disadvantage because of their lack of CDs. Like I said, pretty much everything a VG does well, a Guardian does just as well, if not better (since they have similar DR and smoothness profile, an abs shield to smooth out their profile in sustained situations, and more than 1 real CD for spike situations).

 

Also, the 5% is a damage debuff, not additional damage reduction. I hope you're not trying to add the damage debuff to the DR of the class rather than applying it as its own separate multiplier since that's going to skew the numbers more than a bit ((1 * (1 - .56) = .44; 1- (.95 * (1-.51) = .4655; ~5.8% more damage taken).

[WillLongstick]

Also, the 5% is a damage debuff, not additional damage reduction. I hope you're not trying to add the damage debuff to the DR of the class rather than applying it as its own separate multiplier since that's going to skew the numbers more than a bit ((1 * (1 - .56) = .44; 1- (.95 * (1-.51) = .4655; ~5.8% more damage taken).

 

Got that part right, the damage debuff adds about 2.5% armor to PTs, and 3.something% armor to Sins.

 

I'm starting to think that other than Sins being fantastic against Internal/Elemental damage, talking about 1 tank class being better than another tank class is a pointless endeavor as gearing changes can just wipe out any possible natural differences. What I can say is PTs mitigation always gets better in comparison to Juggs and Sins the higher the boss' damage output is.

 

I have to ask, how much experience do you have either playing with or running an op with a Vanguard tank? There are a lot of unique abilities they bring to the table.

 

* 30 meter attacks, 5 in total including the spammable auto-attack (at the very least, this makes a fight like the Dread Guard 10 times more fun)

* 10 meter spammable attack, Sins and Juggs have 10 meter attacks, but they all go on CD for 6+ seconds.

* Ranged AOE taunt

* Passive mitigation far above what PTs and Juggs have. This is defined as how much you can mitigate when you have to just sit there and can't run your mitigation rotation. Think Rail Shot Droids in EC on this one.

* Mitigation is purely percentage based, this comes back to the above comment about their mitigation being comparatively better than other tank classes at high damage outputs.

* The only tank class that can pop a cooldown for another tank.

* Knockback, Slow, and Root immunity. Contrasted with a Sin tanks Slow and Root break, and a Juggs' continual desire to get Unstoppable back.

[Kitru]

I'm starting to think that other than Sins being fantastic against Internal/Elemental damage

 

Guards are actually better at F/T I/E than Shadows are: they have the same 23% DR as well as 5% resist chance rather than the 2% that Shadows have. The variation in I/E damage taken is so minor that any variation really doesn't matter.

 

talking about 1 tank class being better than another tank class is a pointless endeavor as gearing changes can just wipe out any possible natural differences. What I can say is PTs mitigation always gets better in comparison to Juggs and Sins the higher the boss' damage output is.

 

Gearing differences are actually going to account for less than you probably think. A Shadow, on average, takes roughly 15% less damage over time compared to a VG. For a VG to make up that difference, it's going to take more than a tier of gear.

 

And then there's the whole "tank CDs" thing, where VGs get screwed *hard* no matter how you're geared. Shadows and Guards *both* blow VGs out of the water on that front.

 

I have to ask, how much experience do you have either playing with or running an op with a Vanguard tank?

 

I've got a 50 VG tank and one of the tanks I regularly run with is a VG. The only unique thing they've got is the ranged AoE taunt, but they're also limited by the fact that their taunts have a travel time, unlike the Force taunts.

 

Concerning your commentary about ranged capability, VGs might be able to throw out a couple attacks at 30m or 10m, but their threat is so dependent upon Stockstrike that they really can't tank there *effectively*. Shadows, on the other hand, are only minorly handicapped by tanking at 10m (no DS or SS, which isn't really a major problem). No tank can effectively tank at 30m without just taunt fluffing ad nauseum.

 

As to the incoming damage profile, Guardians are actually pretty much on par with VGs thanks to their drastically increased passive mitigation and the changes to Power Screen and Energy Blast (a *crapton* of your Absorb comes from Energy Blast). If you're talking about what happens when you're not attacking at all, VGs aren't actually all that impressive because of those changes.

 

* The only tank class that can pop a cooldown for another tank.

* Knockback, Slow, and Root immunity.

 

These are the only truly unique thing that VG tanks bring, but, considering everything that the *other* tanks bring along (way better CDs, generally better utility especially in ops), I stick by my statement. It's not like VGs are *worthless*. They're just subpar compared to the other tanks, especially Guardians (because they bring all of the stability and ease of a VG with better mobility and better CDs; VGs can be quite useful compared to a Shadow in some fights where heavy spike damage is likely).

[ckoneful]

I'm not sure what you guys are referring to as to popping a CD for another tank, is it the accuracy reduction thing? If so, why doesn't Intercede count?

[Kitru]

I'm not sure what you guys are referring to as to popping a CD for another tank, is it the accuracy reduction thing? If so, why doesn't Intercede count?

 

Riot Gas is what we're referring to. Guardian Leap doesn't count because it's an aggro drop. It's like referring to Focused Defense as a tank CD: it just doesn't work like that.