Events bringing the trolls out from under their bridges, and how to fix it.

[tanerb]

Your whining is lost on me. There were 4 of you, 1 of him. Despite ANY gear differential, you 4 should have owned him ANY day!!! Even if you all had equal gear, I have a feeling the result would have been the same.

 

You are very good at manipulating words.You are giving me crap by saying no one is forced to do this, to do that. But when I use same example you object. So you should understand different people have different objections.

 

First, we killed him 4 times back to back. But he managed to kill 2 or 3 of us every single time. That is what I wrote. He was two shotting one person at the beginning of the fight with the surprise advantage. But that is not the point. I am talking about 1 vs 1. Can a PVE guy a beat PVP guy given the equal skill level with the gear difference? I don't think so. So if the outcome will be always a PVP guy winning against a single PVE guy, what is the point?

Edited May 28, 2013 by tanerb

[TUXs]

You are very good at manipulating words.You are giving me crap by saying no one is forced to do this, to do that. But when I use same example you object. So you should understand different people have different objections.

 

First, we killed him 4 times back to back. But he managed to kill 2 or 3 of us every single time. That is what I wrote. He was two shotting one person at the beginning of the fight with the surprise advantage. But that is not the point. I am talking about 1 vs 1. Can a PVE guy a beat PVP guy given the equal skill level with the gear difference? I don't think so. So if the outcome will be always a PVP guy winning against a single PVE guy, what is the point?

 

You aren't forced. In no way are you forced to do any of the PvP quests. If you elect to do them, I suggest you have the appropriate gear...otherwise, you'll be 2 shotted and get no sympathy from me, nor most PvPers, for trying to do a PvP mission without PvP gear.

 

What you seem to be truly upset about is that Bolster doesn't effect Ilum's PvP area any longer - and it should. That I'd support you on and defend your right to have Bolster granted in the FFA area - it's how Bioware does all PvP these days...to exclude this area is inexcusable.

[Quraswren]

im just saying that bioware implemented something poorly yet again, they could have done it simple. adding another step on both quests "Kill 10 players".

 

Not sure that could ever be added. Too easy to cheat the system in Open World PVP areas - You still have to have a different PVE-type objective even in PVP.

 

I've learned over the years that if gamers can cheat the system, many will.

[ScarecrowES]

I like seeing that at least there's some worthwhile conversation going on...

 

But ultimately, there is, and has only ever been, one response from those defending the way things are now... "It's a PvP mission in a PvP area. I can gank you if I want."

 

And I get it. You're right. It's a mission labeled PvP, and it occurs in a PvP area. But whereas the griefers see this as their "gank freely with no consequence" card, everyone else sees it for what it is... poor design, and a recipe for allowing the worst elements of a community the opportunity to force their stupidity on everyone else.

 

I will continually find it funny how, with the several hundred players on my server running through Ilum during the time I'm also there, nearly all of us manage to walk in the area, get their objectives, and leave without attacking a single player... most grabbing an orb and forming a largely orderly line at the pylon to turn it in, and even without a menacing glare or a brandishing of weapons to be seen... and many helping other players outside of their own group to secure objectives and guard the pylons to actively prevent fighting on turn in... and yet, when that small handful of PvP'ers rolls in and insists on cowardly attacking other players when they're engaged in fights with mobs or mid action during objectives, WE'RE the ones who don't understand what the mission is all about.

 

The hilarity comes from, in part, the desperate clinging to excuses as to why such actions are ok. Why you're not a douche for stealth camping the pylon, waiting for a group to come by and turn in before you attack them... if you really thought it was your mission to turn in orbs and prevent others from doing so, then why aren't you getting orbs for your group, or attacking players straight up when they come to turn in the orb? Why you think it's your mission to engage in PvP combat at all when you gain nothing for it... it takes you longer to get your own objectives done if you're fighting other players, rather than just waiting like everyone else, and you neither win nor lose in preventing other players from getting their own objectives. Why you insist that it's a PvP mission.... when there isn't a single player interaction, or it's a PvP area when not one fight needs to occur. Why you try so hard to convince the rest of the community that you're just not a sad excuse for a human being.

 

No... I wouldn't even lump most PvP players in with the sorts of individuals that attack other players in the PvP area. Any honest PvP player would rather spend a whole night in Warzones playing the game than sitting around Ilum waiting for hapless questers to pounce on. Hell, the honest PvP players treat the Gree event just like the rest of us... get in, get my easy rep and 100 WZ comms, and get out. "You mean I don't actually have to fight anything, but you give me comms anyway?"

[babanathie]

That is probably the biggest crock of crap that has ever been posted on this forum.

 

I agree; most PvP players play for the love of themselves more than anything else.

[KaitRaven]

Seriously. This thread boggles my mind. Boggles.

 

By the logic some people are using, all warzones are PvE areas. They all have objectives which are NOT 'kill x people'.

 

Let me make an analogy like this: Bioware makes bosses/instances which sometimes require specific strategies or behavior to overcome. Do you insist on using a different method and complain when you die horribly over and over, or do you adapt and learn the strategy to win? If you are undergeared for the encounter, do you whine about how the opponent is overpowered or do you gear up to the appropriate levels?

 

If you really really want to finish those objectives, there are plenty ways of doing so. If you do not wish to overcome those challenges, you do not need to. No quest in all of SWTOR is mandatory. You only have to participate in the content that you like. If you do not like PVP content, do not participate in it. If Bioware says its PVP content, and creates an FFA area for it, then it is PVP content. Regardless of the issues with implementation, it is PVP because Bioware says so. The same as warzones are PVP because Bioware says so. Just because its in an area rather than an instance does not make a difference.

 

You don't do warzones because you do not like PVP content, thus you do not have to do these quests if you do not like PVP content. If you want the rewards that badly, then you can adapt to the encounter.

 

I am not a PVPer at heart. I have not stepped foot in a warzone. Even so, this seems obvious to me. Even as a non-PVPer, I did these quests and I enjoyed it as a change of pace. Take it for what it is.

Edited May 29, 2013 by KaitRaven

[Stoofa]

Seriously. This thread boggles my mind. Boggles.

 

By the logic some people are using, all warzones are PvE areas. They all have objectives which are NOT 'kill x people'.

 

 

Ah - but now you're using logic to counter the words of people telling us that the Gree event missions are not PvP and are in fact PvE.

If we look at the warzones and their objectives:

 

Civil War

Capture and defend turrets so as to destroy the oppositions craft

 

Voidstar

Place charges on doors to allow access to a datacore and download this data

 

Huttball

Score a point by moving the ball over the oppositions goal line

 

Novare Coast

Capture and defend gun batteries to destroy the oppositions base

 

Ancient Hypergate

Capture and defend an ancient hypergate. Charge the gates with orbs

 

In each WZ the actual killing of other players is as a consequence of the actual objective. There is no "kill x players" objective in a WZ.

Of course you can play the WZ by ignoring the objectives and just killing other people. The fact it's a PvP environment means you can do this.

How is this actually that much different from the PvP missions during the Gree event?

[RisenDragon]

I'm reading the OP, and I slogged through a good half-dozen pages of people making comments of one or another type about the OP's comments.

 

I'd just like to say that what I got from the original post is that there is an issue with the culture behind some people playing PVP. Campers, gankers and griefers aren't playing in the spirit of honest sportsmanship or enjoyable play. Sure, they get their kicks in pwning some PVE player trying to knock out a quest in a PVP area, but where is the real enjoyment in stomping on people who don't want to play the game that you're playing?

 

What I would like to see in an open world FFA PVP quest would be something along the lines of the Warzone quests- engage in x number of PVP combat events in the FFA PVP area, and the events that you (or your team) survive (aka win) counts as 2 of those required numbers. That way people who are looking for PVP get their (true to flavor) PVP quest, and people who are doing the quest for the numbers aren't looking at receiving only the rewards of a repair bill for their troubles.

 

Something like that would put enough combatant PVP people in the area to curb the campers, griefers and gankers, and the people who are only there for the event get something for being beat on by the people who play the game to beat on other people.

[Sziroten]

Because the missions do not require any interaction between players

 

In this case.....

 

Huttball, Voidstar, Novare Coast, Ancient Hypergates and Civil War are PvE areas because you are not required to kill other people. Objectives are to cap nods, nothing more.

 

..... only go into the PvP area because a quest tells them too,

 

and if the quest tells them to jump in front of a train.... let's forbid all trains rather than slapping people like this left and right for reading, understanding and thinking what may be involved for what they have to do.

 

Dedicated PvP players go into the PvP area specifically because their intended targets do not fight back, which makes working towards otherwise difficult achievements much much easier.. and of course griefers merely go into the area to ensure that other players simply can't complete their mission objectives. In other words "griefers gonna grief."

 

PvP player go into PvP areas to do.... PvP. If people don't fight back, don't blame any PvP player for it. Nobody is griefing you, it works as intended that everyone can attack you and you can attack everyone else.

 

There are several solutions that could be recommended to remedy the problem of conflicting interests.

 

I have a perfect solution for you... PvE player do the quests which are inside the PvE area = 0 problems. If you want to get more out of the event, do it with several chars... = you get your legend status and anything coming along with it much faster and you don't have to take any "poor" character stalking anyone in a PvP zone but their own kind.

 

Now, any of these 3 solutions eliminates PvP player predation and griefing. Any one would greatly improve the player experience during the event and make it something more memorable for interesting missions than for anger and frustration at the worst a community has to offer. However, since they event is being reworked anyway for the future level 55 interpretation, why not take the opportunity to do something better with it, as the third solution suggests?

 

You know what would improve player experience during the entire game and for the sake of the argument, humanity smarter and getting somewhere? If people wouldn't make up stupid arguments, they are the source of.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Sziroten

[Riincewind]

I play on a RP-PvE server, and I play a Sith. I run around the game fully flagged, so if Republic players wish to attack me they can. If I get jumped by a group of 3-4 players and die, I'll end up having to die. Its how I roll. I dont try and intentionally flag people even if I do know how. If people wish to fight, having a PvP flag on means they will. I have been killed during dailies before, and this was certainly a little annoying this was a risk I took in putting my flag on. The PvP quests for the Gree event happen in a PvP area, so you agreed to be flaged by going in, you also agreed to be flagged doing the outside quests too, if you didnt wait at your base for your flag to go. Therefore any kills made on you I feel are legimate. That being said I play a Sith, we hate Jedi and their allies and I'm not a nice Sith at times, so I like to hurt people. I am going to kill you if I see you flagged, as thats part of my Roleplay. I will admit I spent hours during the Gree event in the middle of the PvP area, during night hours, Sometimes alone, something with others. For the most part I let my own faction live, but I made some exceptions, you killed one of my guild, the whole guild took that as a sign that you and your guild wished war. We are Sith we kill, so we would kill you on sight. Those Imperial players who killed one of ours we showed no mercy to. The Republic had more of a chance, if you tried to use the pylon in the middle I would kill you the first time. Then provoided you came back slowly and waited off the pylon, I would make a offer, bow to me and recognise yo are inferior and you can do you quest. Some did this, and they got their dailies done. This is RP in a PvP area, it was fun. Others just tried to kill me or use the pylon, they had been warned and would die. People may say I only did this with friends in uber PvP gear. I did not do that all the time. I had full partisan as thats what I like on my charecter,. PvP. It is not my fault that some walk into a zone with PvE gear. By flagging yourself you say you are their to be killed. In war you dont stop to ask if the person in a uniform in front of you is the cook, you see a enemy and kill it. I fought everyone I saw, I engaged groups when I was outnumbered, I adapted if the groups were good, and very very rarely did I call for any help from others. Only If I knew that I was greatly out matched, I fought groups 4 on 1, and lost, came back and kept losing. I came up with tricks to get them and I did. I had some good fights and some not so good fights, when people brought groups of upto 20 players from their guild and allies to come take the middle from me. I encouraged both RP and PvP on a RP server. And I will do so again next event. By people walking into the PvP area, they agreed to all this, if you dont like what I did, come find me next gree event, I will be stood out in the middle on the PvP area with a non stealth class waiting for people to fight. That is my RP,. that is my game.

[Dawginole]

lol at this thread just like I lol'd at the original thread in the pvp forum.

 

Outside of wz's weekly and daily PvP'ers have been given two quests in an event. You have 99.99999% of the content in the game. Why are you this tripped up over PvP'ers getting two quests in an event?

 

Unreal...

[DuckimusPrime]

The PvP quests for the Gree event happen in a PvP area, so you agreed to be flaged by going in, you also agreed to be flagged doing the outside quests too, if you didnt wait at your base for your flag to go. Therefore any kills made on you I feel are legimate

 

This annoys me. Turning off the flag should turn off the flag, not flag you as "flag will go away if you spend 5 minutes doing nothing in the base." Its just stupid and gets in the way of people playing the game.

[PanikSpreder]

This annoys me. Turning off the flag should turn off the flag, not flag you as "flag will go away if you spend 5 minutes doing nothing in the base." Its just stupid and gets in the way of people playing the game.

 

Its 5 min. Go get a drink or feet your cat. Just stand still for 5 min in a sanctuary. Its not hard. Even if you have very limited time.

[Riincewind]

Or shock horror, do the PvE quests first, then go into the PvP area, that way your safe while you do the PvE stuff. Or just spend 5 minutes doing nothing between quests. If you dont want to be attacked on Ilum there are ways not to, but if your flagged, and I see you, you are fair game, I am Sith, its what we do.

[Capt_Beers]

PvP areas really have no place in events like these. Best case, they only bring out the griefers.

 

If you want open world PvP, make dedicated areas for it, and ... heck, there's no reason to even finish that sentence, since the engine can't handle PvP of any sort of meaningful scale.

 

I know right? If only there were some sort of FFA PvP area that only allowed small groups...

[MillionsKNives]

This annoys me. Turning off the flag should turn off the flag, not flag you as "flag will go away if you spend 5 minutes doing nothing in the base." Its just stupid and gets in the way of people playing the game.

 

Oh crap there's a big group of enemies nearby *unflag*.

Good they're gone, look a weak player roaming around by himself *flag*.

Uh oh more people are coming better kill this guy quick and *unflag*.

[Jrea]

Remember its not PVP players causing the problem, its gankers.

 

Ganking or griefing, is when you get kids and creeps use PVP to pick on other players.

 

I was there on different toons all week and got very little complaints from the players I killed. I only attacked if they were going after the same thing and they could come back knowing they can get the missions done.

 

Its really surprising that bioware lets this kind of stuff happen, its bad enough in WZ's but its a lot more manageable, and it don't hurt other players non pvp progress. We really need an mmo for griefers where you can just pick the wings off fly's all day.

 

Best solution for this is just to remove the flagging from that area, Ilum has never been a very happy place for pvp.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Jrea