Events bringing the trolls out from under their bridges, and how to fix it.

[ScarecrowES]

Wow... this sparked more of a debate... and sometimes even a civil one, than I had expected when I first wrote the post.

 

After reading through most of the 10 pages here, there are a few points I'd like to address.

 

First, I'd like to say that having open-world PvP on a PvE server is a contradictory design. People sign up for a PvE server specifically to avoid combat with other players, and thus griefing. For those players who love PvP (though I find this laughable considering what it actually is... but that's another post entirely) the game provides an entire system to allow like-minded players to get together and PvP away from questers... hence Warzones. Placing any quest with PvE objectives within a PvP zone is simply bad design, and only likely to lead to the sorts of problems we see with the Gree event, and with the Outlaw's Den on Tattooine.

 

Now, as I acknowledged in the original post, the quests ARE flagged for PvP. However, at least everyone can agree that despite the flagging, there are no actual PvP objectives. Your challenges and mission goals for these missions are entirely PvE, and not require, nor do they even encourage, player interaction. There simply is no point to it. I think the most believable incentive that has been relayed to me as to why the vast majority of players go into the southern terminus merely to run quick quest objectives, while a mere handful of individuals seeks to grief that vast majority is the achievement reward. I am told that there are certain achievements which are largely unobtainable to the average PvP player while doing normal PvP activities, but are very easy to achieve during the Gree event.

 

Since there is no reward other reward for killing players in the PvP area, and no objectives for player interaction involved in completing quests there... it seems that without the incentive the achievement offers, or the simple satisfaction of bullying other unsuspecting players, a PvP'er that's out merely for the WZ comm quest rewards and Gree rep would do exactly as normal questers do - go in, get the objective, get out. Since this is NOT the case, it can be inferred that anyone actually killing players in the PvP area is simply clueless as to what's actually being done in the PvP area, and thus honestly believes he has a need to attack other players, or (and I find this more likely) that player is just a jerk.

 

Now... a second point to address. There was another post saying something to the effect of, "you don't have to do the PvP quests because there are plenty of other quests to do to earn rep." In reality, this is not as true as you might say. The total number of solo and Heroic PvE mission in the Gree event does not even total the same number of the same sorts of missions available in other level 50+ dedicated areas - like Section X, Black Hole, or Makeb. In fact, those areas have 7 daily-repeatable PvE missions that offer creds, xp, and faction rep - one Heroic 4, and 6 solo - and I believe Makeb actually has more, especially when you factor in the staged weekly.

 

The Gree event also offers 7 daily-repeatable rep quests... except in this case, 2 of the daily PvE missions occur within, and thus are flagged for, PvP. Now, if a player were to ignore the PvP quests, that player would be denied about 28% of the reputation, experience, and credit gains that can be achieved doing any other set of 50+ rep dailies. This, of course, would be ridiculous in any normal 50+ daily area... imagine Section X if a full 28% of rep was undesireable to obtain for the overwhelming majority of players - it would be obsurd and unacceptable. For a limited time and rare-occuring event like Gree, it's even more baffling, and seems little more than a remnant of an original miscalculation on the part of BW as to just how compelling PvP would be.

 

So my third solution is easily the best for all concerned. Removing the 2 "PvP" missions from the PvP area, and reworking them back into proper PvE missions gives a total of 7 repeatable daily PvE missions - just the same as any other area - allowing PvE-only players to get full rep and still completely avoid griefing. Further, you can breath new life into the PvP arena, and give dedicated PvP'ers a true event-worthy experience by creating 2 new, wholely-PvP missions that offer a sort of experience that you just can't get in a Warzone, and might even attract PvE'ers into as well. I'd honestly suggest some sort of repeating-staged event... something where players could jump in and jump out very easily at any point... maybe even something that has Rebublic and Emperial players fighting each other in one stage, an absolute FFA melee in another stage, and then maybe require that Pub and Imp players actually fight together against a common enemy in yet another stage....

 

I'll include an example of how this could work in a seperate posting below, just to give you an idea of what I'm talking about.

[ScarecrowES]

So, an example of how a staged, event-worthy PvP "mission" could work in the confines of the existing objective structure in the Southern Terminus:

 

Stage one could be similar to the orb-collecting, pylon-activating mechanic that exists in one PvP mission. In this case, though, make it so that the orb score counts not merely for yourself, or members of your group, but for all members of your faction that are within the pylon arena at the time the orb is cashed in, and have this count towards both a main and a bonus mission with lucrative rewards. Obviously, player-to-player damage in this stage will be limited to the opposing faction. For the main mission, any orb scored by either faction counts toward the main objective for both, but only orbs scored by your own faction counts towards the bonus. Make going to get the orbs a bit dangerous, such that you're going to want groups out there going after the orbs, and groups defending other groups or objectives- more enemy mobs around the orb pylons, for instance. Get to, say 5 total orb drops between both factions (and first faction to 3 gets the bonus), and you get to start the next stage.

 

Here in the first stage you have both an incentive to cooperate, and an incentive to compete, all within the same objective. Every player is going to want to see all 5 orbs dropped into the pylon to move onto the next stage, but those bonus rewards will be tempting too. Maybe you could even make it so that the orbs are transferrable to the attacking player upon the death of the current orb holder... so you could see some very cunning strategies. Will the pubs and imps work together and take turns getting the orbs/ bonuses? Is there going to be an honest, all out battle for the orbs? Or will there be some trickery going on... let the enemy get the orbs, but steal it from them and take it for your own?

 

One of the following stages could be truly FFA... give the players incentives to attack anyone they can, and open player-to-player damage into full FFA. The objective could be as simple as to rack up a certain number of kills or points, or could be more involved than that. You could make it a timed stage such that every player gets a debuff added by the activation of the pylon which causes health to slowly drain away, until eventually you are incapacitated. Incapacitated players go immune... can't be damaged, can't move, can't be attacked OR revived... until the next stage. So while incapacitated they can't be killed outright, and return to full health when the stage is over. The trick? Doing damage to other players heals YOU, thus making you live longer. Get through the stage when the time runs out without being incapacitated, earn a bonus.

 

And then one of the phases could be a cross-faction "cooperation" phase. Maybe spawn a number of hard enemies like the Gree Destroyer (but not that one, obviously) and turn player-to-player damage off. Have an objective that requires killing one or more of these big enemies. Pubs and Imps get to work together to take down foes. Or in alternative to a small number of large enemies, which might be hard for smaller groups to manage, instead spawn a larger number of lower-level enemies for players to attack, like the various droids around the arena, and require they kill x number of them. Probably make this a timed event as well, so again smaller groups aren't forced to battle a huge number or enemies to finish the stage, and make mobs continue to respawn as long as the stage is active, ensuring players aren't necessarily competing for kills. Once all 3 stages are done, the arena resets to phase one.

 

Each stage would have different player-damage models, thus ensuring that players can't grief other players during the stages and remain "on task." And each stage would have seperate and distinct objectives that would be active as soon as you picked up the mission, meaning you could jump into whatever stage is just starting when you arrive in the Southern Terminus, and leave whenever your particular objectives are complete. You could even do just ONE objective, leave, and come back to do other ones later, if you want. To makes sure players can't just walk into a stage mid-course, you could have energy barriers that barr players from entering the central pylon arena, where the PvE and FFA stages will occur, while those stages are active. You could only access the central pylon arena freely during the orb stage, or during a short "respite" phase between stages. This helps to make things a little more fair, and ensures the various stages work as intended.

 

Wouldn't something like that be more compelling for your Gree event PvP challenges?

[TheBBP]

PvP players play for the love of the game.

 

That is probably the biggest crock of crap that has ever been posted on this forum.

[MalDeChagas]

Now, as I acknowledged in the original post, the quests ARE flagged for PvP. However, at least everyone can agree that despite the flagging, there are no actual PvP objectives. Your challenges and mission goals for these missions are entirely PvE, and not require, nor do they even encourage, player interaction.

No, not everyone agrees that there aren't PVP objectives. Read the replies, plenty are in here disagreeing.

 

Without the threat of PVP, why even have the pylon quest? Pick up the orb, stand in line and turn in your orb. Would be a quest with absolutely zero risk. Other players are the mobs that can make these quests challenging, and it's a different experience every time you do it.

[Beaunidle]

And this is where PvP and PvE players differ PvP players play for the love of the GANK.

 

Most of the PvP kills I;ve seen on Ilum are conducted by 2+ groups of guildmates ganking solo/duo people, there's no PvP, it's just stun-splat pre-teen ePeen growth stuff.

 

I agree with the OP. there should have been proper PvP objectives to give the real PvP players something productive and fun to do (yes I know "fun" to some PvPers is gang splatting one or two at a time), real battles and objectives would have been fun.

[ScarecrowES]

No, not everyone agrees that there aren't PVP objectives. Read the replies, plenty are in here disagreeing.

 

Without the threat of PVP, why even have the pylon quest? Pick up the orb, stand in line and turn in your orb. Would be a quest with absolutely zero risk. Other players are the mobs that can make these quests challenging, and it's a different experience every time you do it.

 

I'll bite. What is the PvP objective? There's nothing requiring you to attack other players. Hell, it's not even encouraged. You're given absolutely no incentive to do so. You're not told to do it, and you're certainly not rewarded for doing it. You don't earn comms,. xp, or even credits for killing other players, or even preventing them from achieving their objectives. There's no you vs. me... or you vs. anybody. There's no winner or loser. For all intents and purposes, there's no competition at all.

 

What purpose is served by attacking other players or preventing them from being able to achieve their own mission objectives? Nothing.

 

So to the tone of your post, I completely agree. Why have this mission at all? Why even have a PvP area at all? If you're just going to put missions in there that don't require PvP contact, why not just have those missions, and the area, be PvE? Otherwise, you've just got a big wasted part of the map like the Outlaw's Den on Tatooine... another open-world PvP area where missions not requiring any PvP area accomplished.

 

The only arguement being rendered here as to why attacking other players during the pylon and droid missions during those missions is that the area is PvP, and thus PvP attacks are implied. This is such a paper arguement that it's worthless to even attempt. Everyone... and I mean everyone, who walks into that area knows precisely what the missions are and what they require. Everyone knows full well that there is no gain to be had from or requirement to attack another player. The vast overwhelming majority of players understand this, and manage to simply go in there, get their objectives, and get out with incident. The danger/risk of PvP combat is implied, but entirely unexpected because there is utterly no point to it at all.

[Thaed]

I'll bite. What is the PvP objective? There's nothing requiring you to attack other players. Hell, it's not even encouraged. You're given absolutely no incentive to do so. You're not told to do it, and you're certainly not rewarded for doing it. You don't earn comms,. xp, or even credits for killing other players, or even preventing them from achieving their objectives. There's no you vs. me... or you vs. anybody. There's no winner or loser. For all intents and purposes, there's no competition at all.

 

What purpose is served by attacking other players or preventing them from being able to achieve their own mission objectives? Nothing.

 

So to the tone of your post, I completely agree. Why have this mission at all? Why even have a PvP area at all? If you're just going to put missions in there that don't require PvP contact, why not just have those missions, and the area, be PvE? Otherwise, you've just got a big wasted part of the map like the Outlaw's Den on Tatooine... another open-world PvP area where missions not requiring any PvP area accomplished.

 

The only arguement being rendered here as to why attacking other players during the pylon and droid missions during those missions is that the area is PvP, and thus PvP attacks are implied. This is such a paper arguement that it's worthless to even attempt. Everyone... and I mean everyone, who walks into that area knows precisely what the missions are and what they require. Everyone knows full well that there is no gain to be had from or requirement to attack another player. The vast overwhelming majority of players understand this, and manage to simply go in there, get their objectives, and get out with incident. The danger/risk of PvP combat is implied, but entirely unexpected because there is utterly no point to it at all.

 

The PvP objective is to use your orb before anyone else does. This means killing/interrupting other players trying to use their orb. By killing other players, you get your quest finished faster, therefore you are rewarded for participating in PvP.

[OvenOfAshes]

The PvP objective is to use your orb before anyone else does. This means killing/interrupting other players trying to use their orb. By killing other players, you get your quest finished faster, therefore you are rewarded for participating in PvP.

 

Yes that is one way you can do it; But as he was saying the pvp missions don't give any reward for killing other players. Like war zones give you the medals and the more you get the more comms. Now the gree pvp gave me 1000 and I didn't kill anyone.

[serovan]

too bad expertise removes all fun from the world pvp. Any good fights, or skill based combat is completely trivialized by expertise, it provides such a stupidly overwhelming advantage.

 

The free for all aspect also screws everything up. We got a nice force together and took on the imps in a massive battle.. and it quickly turned to a mess because outside my group of 4 I could hurt my friends.. I kept having to second guess my targets and carefully click through the battle field.

 

It was dumb and didn't last long.

 

I just avoid the pvp area because nothing is sporting, nothing is fun. Its just stealthers ganking singles at the pylon. woopdee-doo.

[Thaed]

Yes that is one way you can do it; But as he was saying the pvp missions don't give any reward for killing other players. Like war zones give you the medals and the more you get the more comms. Now the gree pvp gave me 1000 and I didn't kill anyone.

 

The reward for killing other players is completing the quest faster.

[OvenOfAshes]

too bad expertise removes all fun from the world pvp. Any good fights, or skill based combat is completely trivialized by expertise, it provides such a stupidly overwhelming advantage.

 

The free for all aspect also screws everything up. We got a nice force together and took on the imps in a massive battle.. and it quickly turned to a mess because outside my group of 4 I could hurt my friends.. I kept having to second guess my targets and carefully click through the battle field.

 

It was dumb and didn't last long.

 

I just avoid the pvp area because nothing is sporting, nothing is fun. Its just stealthers ganking singles at the pylon. woopdee-doo.

I don't know about you but man I hate expertise with a burning passion. Lets grab everyone that thinks expertise is dumb as hell, time travel to when the idea of expertise and tell them how stupid it is. Now if they still wouldn't remove it, then I suggest a stoning.

[OvenOfAshes]

The reward for killing other players is completing the quest faster.

 

Yeah and the reason why it gives you a thousand comms is to make it slightly more worth it. Had it given you like 250 for both the "pvp" missions then it would be a waste of time. Basically the pvp in swtor is jacked up and the event just made it worse.

[YoshiRaphElan]

I don't see the point of this thread. I am a quester, now, but even I know that when you walk into a PVP area you should be ready to fight. It's kind of the point of making the area "PVP." If you don't want to get attacked, I'd do the quests that don't go into those areas.

[JimG]

My expectation was that events like these would bring out the best in a community, and foster the sort of connection, esprit de corps, and cooperation that you'd see in other less involved events in other types of communities, but on a vast MMO scale.

Why do people even make silly statements like this? Sure, you thought it would be Woodstock and everyone would sit around holding hands and singing Kumbaya....sure you did, lol.

There are two missions which are flagged as "PvP," and occur only within the PvP area, but are, ostensibly, PvE missions... requiring no intra-player activity whatsoever to complete. If not for occuring in a PvP area, there is nothing "PvP" about these missions.

Dude, it's a freaking PVP quest. It's clearly marked as a PVP quest. It's in a PVP free-for-all zone. It's a PVP quest....not a PVE quest....and the obvious part of it that is PVP is that you have to survive attacks from other players while completing the quest. The amount of crying and whining over this is ridiculous and has gone on constantly in general chat every day that this event has run.....all 3 times it's run. There is absolutely no reason to run these if you don't want to PVP....especially since the rewards aren't all that good if you take out the warzone commendations which you won't need since you don't PVP. Problem solved....crisis averted.

[OvenOfAshes]

I am just going to reword what everyone that is upset about the "crying" says; If you have such a problem with people complaining about it why not just avoid it? along with this forum? No one likes people who camp the mission and ruin your time end of story.

[Esproc]

And this is where PvP and PvE players differ PvP players play for the love of the game.

 

Actually the game was made and promoted as a Story Based MMO, not a pvp warzone that carries no story advancement in it.

 

BioWare died when the founders quit in April 2012 and the layoff in May wiped out top people involved with SW:ToR.

 

ea is known for Sports, they are lost, and it has shown ever since that time.

 

The love of the game is the STORY.

 

pvp is a side game like space missions.

PvE advances the story arcs.

 

There are plenty of pvp only games that are well made and balanced that you could try.

Of course you would be doing pvp against pvp all the time and there would be no PvE server for you to hide on.

[pan_sObak]

The PvP objective is to use your orb before anyone else does. This means killing/interrupting other players trying to use their orb. By killing other players, you get your quest finished faster, therefore you are rewarded for participating in PvP.

 

Wrong :-)

 

Queue is the fastest way to complete the quest

Because when it goes to mess - nobody could use the trigger... everybody starts hunting players with the orb and it really slowers the game for all

even if you have a full team - you couldn't withstand against dozen of other players who just want to kill you

And it is not faction vs faction - it's your team vs all other players!

[pan_sObak]

I don't see the point of this thread. I am a quester, now, but even I know that when you walk into a PVP area you should be ready to fight. It's kind of the point of making the area "PVP." If you don't want to get attacked, I'd do the quests that don't go into those areas.

 

it is.

but the quests are PVE in their sole and so PVErs are doing them

besides it's a good way to get WZ comms for some PVP relics which were the BIS for PVE sometime ago :-)

 

i am not complaining about ganging in that zone

 

but i think that is an ugly way to create an "open world" PVP

i saw other ways of that and it can be done better

 

for example:

 

you have a planet

both factions are to conquer it

 

first phase - you need to capture and hold some locations (earth-2-air missiles batteries for example) from NPCs (natives or opps faction), it can be a kind of Flashpoint or open world so other faction players could interfere.

for holding that locations you got some strategy points (may be even other faction holding such locatins put down your points or get their own ones), when you'll get enough points you can attack the capital.

 

second phase - at certain hour two factions clash at the battle for the planet's capital.

it could be 2 stages - space battle first and earth operation then if attackers manage to clear the sky and dropship temselves. their should be also NPCs for every side, amount of them depends upon amount of strategy points every side have.

 

it's a kind of PVP event and the wining side will get some cookies - unique gear or relics or crafting mats or titles or all that in one box :-)

there can be also a ladder for active players and guilds

Edited May 28, 2013 by pan_sObak

[ClavisN]

... CLEARLY the quests are marked PVP. Now you have a choice, you can choose to get the extra rep and muddle through the pvp, or you can CHOOSE not to do the two pvp quests. ... There is none of this "unsuspecting player" crap. I hate to sound so harsh but you are crying because you don't like the PVP quest, it is simple, don't do it. I don't do the WZ dailies, but you don't see me crying about it.

 

And on and on and on. Just stop it already. This is the only argument the pro-ganking crowd is bringing up, and it fails.

 

I don't buy any of this totalitarian crap. PvP is not an take it or leave it option. There is legitimiate PvP activity with these quest (resource contention) and there is the ganking stuff people complain about.

 

Having an area flagged PvP doesnt give you a jerk license. It doesnt authorize you to stalk people for hours. And above all it doesnt give you ownership of an area!

 

The pro-ganking PvPers here behave like some kid that joins a boxing club with the stated objective "to beat up people". No, that's not how it works.

 

The quests create specific incentives that invite PvP, and within these incentives I am quite willing to accept PvPing. But your claim that I consent to getting randomly ganked by folks in uber-gear and big numbers all the time is simply completely rubbish.

[Applicator]

If you hadn't noticed, the pylon mobs in the pvp area are weaker than in the pve area, it's risk vs reward

[ClavisN]

why the hell do you people think there needs to be a gosh darn reason to kill someone, you PVP to SEE DEAD PEOPLE WHILE YOUR STILL STANDING... THE END.

 

You are a psychopath. Get professional help.

 

People do PvP because they love the challenge player opponents provide, as opposed to NPC opponents.

 

People who do PvP because they can harm and humiliate others are griefers, and they have no place in any MMO. In fact, griefers have no place in civil society at all - they have to change their ways or end up getting locked in.

[xxIncubixx]

tbh this event was yet another mistake/failure by bioware, was it so hard to make the pvp quests "Kill 10 players" or 20 whatever (on top of killing droids), insteadt they made pve quests on a pvp zone... which is Retarded, and im a pvp player. Edited May 28, 2013 by xxIncubixx

[AlrikFassbauer]

You are a psychopath. Get professional help.

 

People do PvP because they love the challenge player opponents provide, as opposed to NPC opponents.

 

People who do PvP because they can harm and humiliate others are griefers, and they have no place in any MMO. In fact, griefers have no place in civil society at all - they have to change their ways or end up getting locked in.

 

I agree to this.

 

I thought that PvP was about challenge.

 

It wasn't.

Edited May 28, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer

[xxIncubixx]

I agree to this.

 

I thought that PvP was about challenge.

 

It wasn't.

 

never was , Open World PvP is mostly gank or be ganked.

Edited May 28, 2013 by xxIncubixx

[Stoofa]

tbh this event was yet another mistake/failure by bioware, was it so hard to make the pvp quests "Kill 10 players" or 20 whatever (on top of killing droids), insteadt they made pve quests on a pvp zone... which is Retarded, and im a pvp player.

 

But they aren't PvE quests.

This is the one sticking point throughout this whole argument.

It doesn't matter how you perceive these quests or if you think they are PVE there are some facts you simply cannot get away from:

 

The quests have a [PVP] Tag

They take place in a contested, free-for-all area

The reward for completing them is WZ commendations

 

You can call them PVE as much as you like - it doesn't make it true.