please stop telling people to " Go look it up online"!!

[Ocho-Quatro]

3. Watching / reading AND peer learning.

^this.

 

Unless you are a progression raider, or seeing brand new content that there are no guides for yet, there is no really NEED to learn things on the fly. All you manage to do, by coming into an encounter blindly, especially one that is now several months old, is cause more time wasting/drama/headaches/repair bills for the team you are pug'ing in to.

 

I'll gladly explain any fight to any team member who doesn't know it. I might even suggest, "Hey, while I am explaining this, you might want to head over to Dulfy to see it for yourself."....

 

What I would never tolerate, especially in a pug, is someone saying "I don't know the fight... but I want to figure it out on my own, so please just give me the basics and we'll be fine." That is almost a guaranteed wipe and groupwide repair bill. I ragequit a Hard Mode Explosive Conflict with a pug last week for that very reason. Had a healer who said "I'm just healing, you guys handle the mechanics, I don't need to know it." ... and what do you know? He stood on the ground and got destroyed by missiles/spikes.

 

If you want, I can even cut a step out for you: Let Me Google That for You

Edited July 23, 2013 by Ocho-Quatro

[Never_Hesitate]

I can fully understand people asking on starter planets.

 

What I do not understand, however, is when someone who already has dozens of level 55 characters says to them (on the starter plants !) that they should behave like joining an OP, in this sense.

 

The high-levelplayers begin small again - but they carry over their Eliticist mind set even into the starter planets !

 

There are too many lazy people who just ignore the popups, codex, tutorials, map, questtext and such which are ingame. to tell them they should read the ingame messages is not etitist, it's actually educating them.

 

How goes the saying again?

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day.

Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

 

So I would rather educate someone or let them stay dumb, than spoon feed them forever.

 

The best example happened on my latest twink:

A guy asked for help with a class quest (He actually just wrote "I need help" and we had to press every piece of information out of him)

after we had a look at the situation, we realized, that he was an lvl 13 assa who wanted to fight Skotia (Level 16)

we explained to him that he needs to level up then he would have less problems with the boss.

After a while of not doing anything he asked for help again, so most of us just ignored him.

Eventually he must have found someone to get him through it

 

To help is all ok, but the same person asked on balmorra for help again and as most of us already knew him from Dromund Kaas, so we told him, that he would never get anywhere when he couldn't even complete the easy class stories alone and we told him to read through the codex and the tutorials.

As anyone would have guessed he kept just spamming "I need help" (without a quest or anything)

so he marched on my ignorelist.

 

I tried to help him, but it was not the help he was looking for, he wanted someone to essentially play the game for him, so he could shut down his brain.

[Godly_CzL]

The OP was, I think, referring more to people out in the world than flashpoints and ops. Especially on the starter planets, you see a lot of people asking questions, because, hello, starter planet, and then you see a lot of people telling them to go look it up online and generally just being jerks.

 

This 100%.

 

Both the ignorant and the educated (not meant to be hurtful) in all situations have different points of view.

 

"I have a quick question about Operator in TFB NiM, I've only done it in SM" - this is not a reasonable request standing at the entrance of the fight, slightly under-geared.

 

"How do I learn new light-saber moves?" ( On Dromund Kaas asks a maruader wearing Cunning/Aim/Willpower/Strength Gear)....after a quick laugh to yourself. "Open your map by pressing "M", on the bottom left you can select trainer. This will show you where your trainer is, he will teach you. Oh and By the way you should be wearing only Strength gear for your player. GL" <-- this took me 12 seconds to type, and I don't mind doing it. Someone once told me something similar. PAY IT FORWARD.

 

The issue here since everyone is basically understanding the problem is a form of a superiority complex. You feel elevated in your status in the game because, HA What a STUPID question you ask of me!! Don't you know who I am, I have almost cleared all of HARD MODE SV, Beat that!! <---(Shut up no one cares, there's always someone better)

 

Just say nothing if you don't feel that 12 seconds can be spared ATM.

 

And for you new players (not like your reading this anyway) if some one is being an ***. Right Click. IGNORE.

 

I have a much higher appreciation for someone who asks and realizes they need help then some of the other arrogant/ignorant players who know EVERYTHING and DON'T NEED YOU TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO!! Right dude, you hang out here and wipe, ill find someone else to play with.

 

That being said I would appreciate you not wasting an additional 30 minutes of my life during this raid because you seem to have a small bladder and need an explanation for everything except trash.

 

....I feel better now.

[-DSR-]

I have no problems explaining tactics to new people (although i prefer if they have at least read a guide, it makes it so much easier) but the problem now is, with the double-xp weekends, you get an awful lot of new 55s who never have done a single operations and start by pugging TFB or S&V.

One can explaint tactics in EV or KP in a reasonable amount of time, and people who haven't done an ops can easily complete those.

But if you have never been in an operation and start with S&V without knowing tactics it just doesn't work out. The operations are meant as a learnign curve, but with no experience, no reading beforehand you cant just expect to get the explanations in a few lines and think that everything will work out.

[Godly_CzL]

Very fair. Actually had not considered the influx of these people with Double XP as I mostly operate within my guild. (To avoid these situations) I guess better screening for OP members could help, but this is something inevitable with PUG groups.

 

If these things annoy you enough, find a guild that operates on a level you are comfortable with. Life gets better.

[Ocho-Quatro]

I have no problems explaining tactics to new people (although i prefer if they have at least read a guide, it makes it so much easier) but the problem now is, with the double-xp weekends, you get an awful lot of new 55s who never have done a single operations and start by pugging TFB or S&V.

One can explaint tactics in EV or KP in a reasonable amount of time, and people who haven't done an ops can easily complete those.

But if you have never been in an operation and start with S&V without knowing tactics it just doesn't work out. The operations are meant as a learnign curve, but with no experience, no reading beforehand you cant just expect to get the explanations in a few lines and think that everything will work out.

 

The bigger problem I see with this... isn't that they don't know the basics of SWTOR Operations having not seen EV/KP/EC.... TfB and S&V are a bit more complex, but can be explained to a new player, especially if they are on voice. The biggest problem I run into with people who leveled from 1 to 55 without doing any endgame, and then enter the queue for TfB/S&V is that they are both underexperienced AND undergeared. You get 26k HP tanks with no mitigation, or level 55 dps that have no accuracy, players who come into raids, with no knowledge/experience, with level 53 leveling gear. That is a bad thing.

 

I had a TfB this past week on my assassin tank that was exactly that. I had four dps, all 23/24k HP, no augments, no set bonuses, 2 of them had never run the op before ever. We struggled through it very slowly, even had a DPS that had SM and HM 8-man achievements, from running on his tank, yet had NO idea how to channel/dps cores at Operator and caused a wipe on BLUE, not to mention he wouldn't hug the tentacles in phase 1 Terror, and didn't kill a single Irregularity at phase 2 Terror.... he refused to get on my ventrilo server, and ultimately caused the raid to fail at Terror because we couldn't get the Irregularities down.... I was killing three as a tank, the other tank was killing 2... the healers each killed 1... and the DPS couldn't handle the rest. It was bad.

 

I take pride in performing as well as I can, especially when I pug into a raid group. If that means I am watching videos, or reading guides, that is what I am doing. I'm constantly reading theorycrafter's guides to min/max, and try to play as effectively and intelligently as I can, because when I join a pug, when the raid is over, I want people to remember my name. I want them to remember "that guy was a good player, I'm gonna friend him and play with him again." Far too often, at the end of a pug raid, my friend's list stays the same, and my ignore list gets a little longer, and I never want to be THAT person.

[Duvack]

There are too many lazy people who just ignore the popups, codex, tutorials, map, questtext and such which are ingame. to tell them they should read the ingame messages is not etitist, it's actually educating them.

 

How goes the saying again?

 

 

So I would rather educate someone or let them stay dumb, than spoon feed them forever.

 

The best example happened on my latest twink:

A guy asked for help with a class quest (He actually just wrote "I need help" and we had to press every piece of information out of him)

after we had a look at the situation, we realized, that he was an lvl 13 assa who wanted to fight Skotia (Level 16)

we explained to him that he needs to level up then he would have less problems with the boss.

After a while of not doing anything he asked for help again, so most of us just ignored him.

Eventually he must have found someone to get him through it

 

To help is all ok, but the same person asked on balmorra for help again and as most of us already knew him from Dromund Kaas, so we told him, that he would never get anywhere when he couldn't even complete the easy class stories alone and we told him to read through the codex and the tutorials.

As anyone would have guessed he kept just spamming "I need help" (without a quest or anything)

so he marched on my ignorelist.

 

I tried to help him, but it was not the help he was looking for, he wanted someone to essentially play the game for him, so he could shut down his brain.

 

I think I was on at the same time as this! Between him/her spamming for help, I had leveled 1 1/2 times. Some just seem to want to breeze through the class story line and not do any side quests and still expect to be able to beat the toughest bosses of the game when they're 3 or 4 levels below where they should be.

 

The thing I like about this game is the time it takes to actually learn how to play it. AND the fact that if you start a new and different toon, you pretty much have to re-learn how that class works and what works best for this and that. I'm not adverse to reading and helping others but if you just going to think you can get from 1 to 50 in a day, than maybe want to pick up a different game.

[Cthulhooo]

Wow I'm amazed by the amount of gianormous posts in this thread when it's really simple:

 

1) Don't know tactics for ops? Read on dulfy.net.

 

2) Wanna watch instead of reading? Watch the boss kill video on dulfy.net.

 

Don't wanna do either and beg us to write you tactics? Kick for being lazy *** and taking someone else who did point 1 or 2.

 

I'm referring only to operations not other stuff I don't care about

[AlrikFassbauer]

I guess that someone says to me in-game "look it up on the internet", and I actually do that, tat I'd be THEN kicked from the group, because they don't want to wait for me until I have actually looked it up.

 

I once waited at least 20 minutes for someone group (we were 2) because his PC had crashed. Before and after that, the H2+ quest war running super easy. The only thing that was challenged was my patience.

 

And most people don't have that nowadays.

 

"I want everything, and I want it nao !"

[Never_Hesitate]

I guess that someone says to me in-game "look it up on the internet", and I actually do that, tat I'd be THEN kicked from the group, because they don't want to wait for me until I have actually looked it up.

 

I once waited at least 20 minutes for someone group (we were 2) because his PC had crashed. Before and after that, the H2+ quest war running super easy. The only thing that was challenged was my patience.

 

And most people don't have that nowadays.

 

"I want everything, and I want it nao !"

 

Just like the players who ask about everything instead of just looking it up for once

[PifferPuff]

Y'know... There's really only a few appropriate responses if you are thinking about PUG'ing an operation (regardless of level or mode):

 

1) Preferably: don't think. Instead, find a guild that is looking for your AC, that you can get along with, who are actively running operations, and then run them with them. Guilds WILL talk you through it, and most - in all likely hood - have some experienced players to do puzzle bosses, so you won't have to.

 

2) If you have to pug - and this can only apply to Tanks and Healers (DPS are a dime-a-dozen, so they can easily be replaced) - ask them *nicely* to explain the fight to you (and don't expect do puzzle bosses if you don't know how to). If they vehemently refuse, threaten to drop group. If they don't reply in your favor, then tell them to go 'F' themselves, /ignore them, and (if they didn't already kick you), drop group.

 

3) Otherwise, you're a lowly DerPS, and are at the mercy of the group (as they are probably going to be carrying you), so you have no choice. You can't assume that you can demand that they will coddle you and cater to your inexperience. So, just shut up, grit your teeth, and look it up. And then... You should be fine, and the other group members should have little-to-no complaints with you.

 

Also, do realize that this game's community borrows much from the WoW player-base: many will lack the IQ, EQ and/or patience of ... let's say ... the EVE Online player-base. Others (regardless of IQ or EQ) will be "casuals" (aka Weekend Warriors) -- they work all day and have sparse time to devote to this game: they WILL lack patience, WILL NOT cater to you, and WON'T doddle around waiting for a PUG to learn an operation. In most cases, you - as a PUG - will have to cater to them. If they lack both IQ and EQ (i.e. they start spouting memes and ranting inane gibberish), and you find this annoying, /ignore, drop group and roll with a different crowd. Your options are limited.

 

td;dr -- Join a guild or deal with it.

Edited July 25, 2013 by PifferPuff

[Dearthstone]

I like Tacos.

[Never_Hesitate]

...

 

A bad dps is at the mercy of the group, because there are a lot more out there, a good dps however is not (it can happen that a good dps gets kicked for grabbing aggro of a very bad tank or some other ****** reason)

 

PS: to 2-man an lvl 50 sm ops should be possible by now, but I would use an arsenal merc and a mara/sniper to do it

Edited July 25, 2013 by CommunityDroidEU
reply

[PifferPuff]

Wow, be sure and post that video sometime of you and a tank or healer duo-ing an Op, would sure love to see that.

 

Here ya go:

 

 

 

A bad dps is at the mercy of the group, because there are a lot more out there, a good dps however is not (it can happen that a good dps gets kicked for grabbing aggro of a very bad tank or some other ****** reason)

 

PS: to 2-man an lvl 50 sm ops should be possible by now, but I would use an arsenal merc and a mara/sniper to do it

 

This thread assumes that they would be "bad" as does my previous post; because, if they have to ask, then they haven't done the operation, don't know the fights, and are likely under-geared.

Edited July 25, 2013 by PifferPuff

[Never_Hesitate]

This thread assumes that they would be "bad" as does my previous post; because, if they have to ask, then they haven't done it, don't know the fights, and are likely under geared.

 

Ok, then I can agree with your post

(Even worse of than a dps who is inexperienced is a dps who is inexperienced and rude, when you want to help him, I hate those guys)

[PifferPuff]

Ok, then I can agree with your post

(Even worse of than a dps who is inexperienced is a dps who is inexperienced and rude, when you want to help him, I hate those guys)

 

I know, right. 'Cos they don't realize that they're inexperienced, and think that they know the fights inside and out - when, in fact, they don't. So, they will ignore everyone's advice, cause wipes, and then blame the healers and tanks. When that happens, those guys get swiftly kicked from groups, and usually don't last long in guilds either. As a result, they never learn and never improve. They will continue to be bad.

Edited July 25, 2013 by PifferPuff

[Stuffedduck]

I'll have to set 'newcomer questions' apart from 'lazy guy' questions.

 

If I see players asking the usual(or not so usual) newcomer questions I don't hesitate to answer them (if possible) and try to guide them in addition to helpful in-game or 'outsourced' information bases (tutorial, mouseover on charactersheet, codex etc) as 'discovering/learning stuff yourself' later on is more gratifying (at least to me).

 

I just 'dislike' the 'stupid ... learn to google ... noob ... etc ... etc' replies in chat. Either give a helpful reply or just ignore the question.

I was lucky that I got into a very helpful guild during my first mmorpg experience and my guild leader and fellow guild members always tried to find an answer(if the time/moment allowed it) to my questions or guide me to more complex/theorycrafting heavy informations if needed.

 

What I don't really like are the 'lazy guys' ...

Be it the lvl 30 who wants help on his lvl 36 class quest (just level up to reach the required level, maybe?) and spamming /1 ongoing with 'I NEED HELP';

be it the dps/tank whom you explained what stats he should aim for (you even provided him with the links to the numbers behind it and/or mods/enhancements to get full 66 purple gear to start SM ops) and he still has 91% accuaracy (and wondering why he doesn't hit the boss) as he wanted to take the endurance heavy crit gear as it is lvl 69;

be it the one who at lvl 40+ still didn't manage to read a quest text to know where to go, what to kill etc, or simply to run towards the green triangle indicated on the map;

be it the shadow dps in combat technique and of course refusing to switch to shadow technique as he takes less damage with CT (seen vanguards in tank stance too going full AoE as dps before tank even hits the first mob) asking why he keeps getting aggro on mobs ... in a 55 hm, not a low level sm (until lvl 55 you should have learned to read tool tips imho);

be it the one who was in the alt/newbies gearing ops run yesterday and you said it would be helpful if they would read up about the upcoming bosses before the ops to make things easier/shorter to explain and then they idle on the fleet 3 hours before the ops, but once it started they never had enough time to read up ... and if you're lucky they are the same who didn't manage to install voice chat for 2 weeks, so you have to type it all out again.

 

Can it be fun to run something totally new (no dulfy guide for example) with a group of like-minded players?

Of course, and I really enjoy it (I only started to pve with lvl 55hm FPs in swtor, as a tank ).

Some(most ) of the low level FPs are/were a 'new world' to me and I ended up to run some where nobody in the group had a plan of what to do at all, beside kill mobs and we all agreed on 'learn by trying'. Was it a long run? Yes, but for sure one of the most fun ones I had in swtor.

 

However, as I don't want to be a burden (repair costs, time, stress cookies comsumed) to the players I run with, especially for ops - I try to get as much information beforehand and then fine tune to my personal 'how to' while playing.

[Ansalem]

ya all need to l2google

[Ocho-Quatro]

ya all need to l2google

 

QFT (5char)

[Never_Hesitate]

QFT (5char)

 

I just had to google "QTF" it was a long and difficult process but after a long search (of about 10s) I found my answer.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Never_Hesitate

[Atramar]

I just had to google "QTF" it was a long and difficult process but after a long search of about 10s I found my answer.

 

you did it wrong. you should log in, travel to starting planet, cry 'i need help, i need help' for 5 minutes ignoring whispers.

then ask question 'what means QTF'

go afk for 7 minutes

ask question again.

wait for reply.

port to the fleet, ask same question just to make sure that evil all knowing players didn't make fun of you

wait for reply.

post on forum that people were mean to you.

 

[Never_Hesitate]

you did it wrong. you should log in, travel to starting planet, cry 'i need help, i need help' for 5 minutes ignoring whispers.

then ask question 'what means QTF'

go afk for 7 minutes

ask question again.

wait for reply.

port to the fleet, ask same question just to make sure that evil all knowing players didn't make fun of you

wait for reply.

post on forum that people were mean to you.

 

 

Oh, that's what he meant by "l2google"

 

"learn to get others on general (to) look evil"

[Icebergy]

While I think 'go look it up online' is rude and not the way to say it, personally I think you are doing new players a huge disservice by flat out telling them the answers to their questions.

 

The old analogy "give a man a fish and you feed him once, teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime" applies. You should tell people where to find the info they need, so that they can learn to figure things out for themselves and become self reliant.

 

By just giving them the answers you are teaching them to be dependent on others to do their work for them.

[Seireeni]

The old analogy "give a man a fish and you feed him once, teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime" applies. You should tell people where to find the info they need, so that they can learn to figure things out for themselves and become self reliant.

 

The man learns easier when he's not hungry. First give him a fish and then tell him how to get more if needed.

[Sarielle]

I'm curious if most of the community feels that fights should be known before Story Mode? While I would try to prepare for operations/HM stuff, for me it's fun to not know what the bosses are going to be before I see them. Maelstrom Prison had a nice surprise, for instance, that would have been ruined if I'd known who one of the bosses was going to be ahead of time.

 

So far people have been really pleasant about explaining quick tactics. At this level, it's mostly stuff like "LoS his big chargeup" or "Kill the little guys first" or "Don't stand in the fire" (). But I'm genuinely curious if most of the community feels put upon to explain Story Mode mechanics? I hope people haven't been groaning internally every time I give the pre-FP "Heads up, first time" line.