Eric Musco please enlight me

[Soluss]

If you don't understand what "complimentary" means, that's your problem, not BW's. The fact that you're trying to redefine complimentary beyond "free of charge" is ridiculous. Good luck getting the definition to change just because you want it to suit your argument.

 

 

Including something in the cost does not make it free. For instance, at an auto repair store you can get brake pads for 69 bucks. That price includes lifetime pads. That means you will never pay for a set of brake pads at that store again. You know how much they charge when you get new brake pads? 69 bucks. They call it labor. Did you get free brake pads? No you got an inflated cost of repair to compensate for those free brake pads. Another one... buy 6 oil changes get one free. The cost of each oil change went up to compensate for the "free" 6th oil change. So if an oil change cost you 20 bucks then the oil change will cost you about 24 bucks. All they did was move the cost of the 6th oil change and spread it over the 5 you paid for. Legal business? Of course it is but that does not mean it is actually free.

 

Where ToR is concearned, the value of the subscription is no longer 15 bucks a month. The reason is because 80% of game or so is now free to anyone and everyone. So now the value of the sub is about 10 bucks. Why? Because why would anyone pay 15 bucks to play the same game that people get for free. You wouldnt. So they give you cartel coins to make up for the devalued sub and still be able to collect 15 bucks. People spout off about how complimentary with conditions has been around for ever.... the actual term I would use is hidden cost. All they are doing is giving you about 5 bucks of cartel coins for the devalue of the 15 dollar sub. You are still paying its just an included hidden cost. I dont care if they call it "complimentary" or not. This is what it actually is and the only thing you are correct about is other businesses have used this technique forever. Still doesnt make it free.

 

Dont care if you agree with me or not. It is what it is.

[Cavegeta]

Wanna bet CM will get all the "normal" and obviously good-looking/desired (black/white, red, bblack/golden) modules?

 

Yeah that's actually what I think is gonna happen. Not sure if it's a good or bad thing yet.

 

As to the "free" or "not free" debate, that's still going on? I liken the stipend to the complimentary continental breakfast you get for free at a lot of hotels. It's not really free as you had to pay for the room to get it and if you didn't pay for the room, you wouldn't get the room or the breakfast. In either case, the breakfast usually sucks and you have to pay extra to get bacon.

[Soluss]

If different random people did not post the same thing every 5 minutes in the thread, he would not have to keep repeating himself.

 

Many people actually don't read prior posts before transcribing their complaint.

 

The problem is you cannot argue against peoples opinion or how they percieve things. Noone is actually wrong, its just how they personally percieve them. Debating each others perception is fun but pointless.

[Soluss]

Okay, this I can understand. I can get behind you on that in that a patch that is primarily CM driven may not sit well with many who don't consider the CM content.

 

Yes, I dont personally care about the other stuff. I do understand why people do though. I dont care only because I wont utilize those features. It would have been nice if atleast the basic barbershop features were free, even if you had to pay a small unlock fee on the kiosk itself. Again though, I dont care because I wont use it. I do understand why people are upset though.

 

As a positive, I think its great they are adding some dyes to the CE vendor. I just hope they arent putrid colors that noone would want anyways.

[Andryah]

And you can bet the colors people are really going to want are going to be Cartel or Rep bound.

 

You can bet that any dye available on the CCM will also show up on the GTN.. with people under cutting each other like crazy to sell them. That's a win for you.

 

As for rep bound dyes... isn't that completely off topic with this thread? Really?

[branmakmuffin]

The problem is you cannot argue against peoples opinion or how they percieve things. Noone is actually wrong, its just how they personally percieve them. Debating each others perception is fun but pointless.

It's not opinion that the CC are not free. They are included as part of our sub fee, along with all the other things subs get that Preferred and F2P do not get. If the CC are free then so are the the 30-miunted quick travel cooldown and the fleet pass and the equipment authorizations and the rest XP and whatever else subs get that I can't recall at the moment.

 

Unless someone pays $0 to sub, they are not free.

[SavingPrincess]

Roughly HALF of the dyes coming in 2.1 are not going to be available in the CM.... only in game.

 

Source: http://dulfy.net/2013/05/01/swtor-patch-2-1-dyes-modules-qa-with-bioware/

 

Just out of curiosity... why do you seem to be on the side of "everything is fine the way it is" and "BW/EA shouldn't give customers anything more than they have to?"

 

I'm reading your responses and am baffled quite frankly.

 

My main gripe is that sub's JUST paid for the RotHC, and now we will be asked to purchase a race expansion. The argument that "might be able to pay for Cathar with a full month stipend if you have a security key" (which means you also might not, or that they are pricing the Cathar at 600cc), means we won't be able to use that stipend for the other things they're releasing, like CC dyes, or new packs, etc. It seems like BW/EA is de-incentivising sub's and are hoping more people cancel sub and go Preferred. That may make sense from a profit standpoint, but not a customer loyalty standpoint. I'm sure there are tons of people who are out-spending sub's as Preferred's, but if they would just do things like up the CC grant, discount CC items for Subs, give sub's access to new major content as it's released (i.e. races), they could get the pref's to sub AND still buy CC's. Having more subs means more evangelism for the game, which means more f2p signups, more preferred purchasers, and, since subs will be incentivised, more subs.

 

It seems as though they are taking the f2p model and using it to extract as much money as possible from the existing base, instead of expanding the base.

[Soluss]

A better question, a more objective one, would be: why do a small number of people insist that something given by a merchant as a complimentary item (something other people pay real $$ for) to a customer is not complimentary. Such a position is out of step with the entire free market on the planet.

 

Complimentary is just a brainwashing marketing scheme. They are not truely free because they call them complimentary. It is an included hidden cost and nothing more.

[Soluss]

Name an MMO that was sub-based, then went F2P, lacked certain customization options pre-F2P then added those customizations to the game and included them as part of the basic subscription fee rather selling them for points/coins/whatever via the game store.

 

This is what the store is going to be for. If you don't like it, go Preferred or stop playing. Those are your options if you think subbing is a rip-off.

 

Old and tired arguement. Im tired of hearing people telling other people to quit. This forum is here to give feedback whether it be positive or negative. Im sorry that you cant tollerate someone saying something negative about your precious game but I assure you that EAware wants to hear what people think. Telling EAware what people think is exactly what this thread is doing..... outside of people like you bashing others because you dont like it.

[branmakmuffin]

Old and tired arguement. Im tired of hearing people telling other people to quit.

I'm tired of people complaining that people shouldn't tell others to quit if they are not happy.

 

This forum is here to give feedback whether it be positive or negative. Im sorry that you cant tollerate someone saying something negative about your precious game but I assure you that EAware wants to hear what people think.

This forum is here to give feedback whether it be positive or negative. If you can't tolerate someone saying something negative about whatever, I assure you you'll just have to suck it up and deal.

 

And why do you say you're sorry when you're not?

[Andryah]

Complimentary is just a brainwashing marketing scheme. They are not truely free because they call them complimentary. It is an included hidden cost and nothing more.

 

Actually... anything complimentary to a customer is a sunk cost to the merchant. Period.

 

IF it consists of real tangible merchandize that actually costs money to manufacture... then the merchant either bakes that into his product cost back to the customer or eats the cost as "goodwill" and writes it off (tax benefit).

 

For an item that costs literally nothing to manufacture (such as a digital item), there is no tangible sunk cost at all (there might be a tax advantage for them though if they can write it off for equivalent market value). But the fact that Bioware is charging the industry standard subscription prices for an MMO disproves them passing any cost along to customers in any event.

 

Sorry Soluss... but this theory of hidden cost does not wash when the subscription prices before complimentary coins is THE SAME as after complimentary coins started being issued.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Andryah

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

My main gripe is that sub's JUST paid for the RotHC, and now we will be asked to purchase a race expansion.

 

Would you have preferred if Cathar was included in RotHC but the price was higher?

 

That way some people would be paying for a race they did not want to play while others would be forced to pay for an expansion just to unlock a race. If it was included in RotHC it would have cost subscribers more cash because whether you call the monthly CC free or not there is no arguing against the fact that we can get Cather without paying any more cash than our sub.

[Soluss]

Actually... anything complimentary to a customer is a sunk cost to the merchant. Period.

 

IF it consists of real tangible merchandize that actually costs money to manufacture... then the merchant either bakes that into his product cost back to the customer or eats the cost as "goodwill" and writes it off (tax benefit).

No, it is not a sunk cost to the merchant Period I ran an autoshop for a really long time. It isnt a sunk cost because they just push the cost somewhere else or hide it in the bill. All businesses do this. Im quite educated in the manner of these marketing schemes. I dont know what you do for a living but you talk as if you know everything about everything and I assure you that you dont.

For an item that costs literally nothing to manufacture (such as a digital item), there is no tangible sunk cost at all (there might be a tax advantage for them though if they can write it off for equivalent market value). But the fact that Bioware is charging the industry standard subscription prices for an MMO disproves them passing any cost along to customers in any event.

 

Sorry Soluss... but this theory of hidden cost does not wash when the subscription prices before complimentary coins is THE SAME as after complimentary coins started being issued.

 

Your arguement breaks apart here. The subscription price IS the same and thats my point. The value of the subscription, however is not. Given that 80% of the game is now free to anyone... they cant really justify charging someone the same fee for features that no longer cost people anything. An example.... If my autoshop was giving free oil changes out to everyone, but they had to pay 5 bucks for the filter, then why would you pay me 15 bucks for your oil change? The answer is because I gave you a "free" air filter as well. The air filter wasnt actually free. It just appears that way on paper.

[SavingPrincess]

The 500 Cartel Coins for subs are neither free nor complimentary. They cost $15/mo. It is the only thing that was ADDED to the subscription when the game went F2P. There were lots that were taken away.

 

If you refer to: http://www.swtor.com/free/features

 

... all of the features listed as "subscriber benefits" were there prior to F2P launch (with the exception of the additional quickbars).

 

Let's try an analogy.

 

You live in an apartment complex. You pay $1,000 per month total which includes rent, utilities, garbage, parking, internet, etc.

 

Now... the complex sends you a notice:

 

"Dear residents,

 

Starting next month, people will be allowed to live here for free! They will have to pay for their utilities, internet, garbage, and can rent a parking spot for a fee or choose to park offsite; or they may choose to just use the apartment without electricity, water, internet, etc. as a living/sleeping space. For those of you paying $1,000 per month, you will continue to receive the same great services you have now, plus we will give you $50/mo. to spend at our café! We thank you for your continued support!"

 

Now, assuming the utility costs for everything non-rent related is let's say 50%, they have just devalued the $1,000/mo. rent payment by half, because people paying $500/mo., who bought their parking spot, who bought their internet contract, their garbage contract, etc., while they may have paid $2,000 in the first month... over the long haul, they will get the better value and identical experience.

 

So the argument of "if you don't like it, go preferred and buy the one-time unlocks" is a completely valid one... the question is, WHY is BioWare/EA making that a completely valid question?

 

NOTE: I would love someone with a little time on their hands to go do an actual calculation of how much in Cartel Coins it would cost to have all the benefits of subs (customizations, character slots, unlocks, etc.) and parse out the financial benefits of buying everything up front and how long it would take to get the return on that investment.

[Andryah]

The issue that I have is with the casting of the coins as "free." Using the term "complimentary" is, to me, simply marketing semantics. When they changed over the f2p, one of the things they did was to include 500 cc per month to all subscribers. In my mind, and many others', those ccs are bundled into our subscription. We get them, and a customizable UI, and access to an unlimited number of flashpoints, and so on...as part of our subscription. I know that that inclusion goes into my personal calculations as to whether the game retains enough value for me to continue my subscription.

 

I understand your issue as you have expressed it.

 

Let me ask you three simple questions:

 

1) what was the price of a subscription to SWTOR before F2P?

 

2) what was the price of a subscription to SWTOR after F2P?

 

3) What is the difference between the answer to 1 and the answer to 2?

 

I'll answer number 3 ahead of you: ZERO + CARTEL COINS

Edited May 1, 2013 by Andryah

[Katchie]

All people are trying to say Bioware, is that they are tired of all the "good stuff" going into the Cartel market, while you give us crappy and downright insultingly ugly armor sets as top tier gear. Or that all new speeders and weapon designs are carted into the cartel market. Barely anything can be earned now worth getting. It all must be bought with coins. And don't give me " it's on the GTN Bowlshat. fanboiz waiting to pounce. Alot of the reputation vendors are just re-skinned stuff, and you are taking away armor sets from the game with every big release. It's ridiculous and insulting.

 

Come on ESO

Edited May 2, 2013 by Katchie

[SavingPrincess]

I understand your issue as you have expressed it.

 

Let me ask you three simple questions:

 

1) what was the price of a subscription to SWTOR before F2P?

 

2) what was the price of a subscription to SWTOR after F2P?

 

3) What is the difference between the answer to 1 and the answer to 2?

 

I'll answer number 3 ahead of you: ZERO + CARTEL COINS

 

Failed logic. You have to factor in what they are now giving away for free... (i.e. all story content) and take that off the table, then look at what you actually GET for paying the subscription (i.e. quickbars, UI, character slots, etc.) because that is what the subscription NOW pays for. So you would have to value all that out, and then add in the 500 coins, and compare thusly. You are no longer paying for story content, because that is free.

[Andryah]

NOTE: I would love someone with a little time on their hands to go do an actual calculation of how much in Cartel Coins it would cost to have all the benefits of subs (customizations, character slots, unlocks, etc.) and parse out the financial benefits of buying everything up front and how long it would take to get the return on that investment.

 

It's been done on the forums several times, early after F2P went live and discussed at length.

 

Short summary, not an exhaustive one by any means:

While you can get most of your unlocks in place for about $150 (give or take) in cartel coins.. you CANNOT get everything a sub gets with their subscription. You cannot get as many character slots. You cannot get your credit cap removed. You must continue to pay for WZ and other subscriber limited access content for as long as you want access to it. There are a few others I'm sure as well.

 

You can defray the $150 a good deal if you are subscribed and have plenty of credits.... since many of the unlocks can be purchased on the GTN. But you are still left with a few key unlockable elements regardless.

 

I've done the economics analysis. I'll keep my sub. But other players may have different needs and can play fine as preferred with some unlocks. Each person needs to assess it for themselves.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Andryah

[Soluss]

I understand your issue as you have expressed it.

 

Let me ask you three simple questions:

 

1) what was the price of a subscription to SWTOR before F2P?

 

2) what was the price of a subscription to SWTOR after F2P?

 

3) What is the difference between the answer to 1 and the answer to 2?

 

I'll answer number 3 ahead of you: ZERO + CARTEL COINS

 

1) 15

 

2) 15

 

3) you answered 3

 

Now let me ask you 3 ?'s

 

1) What part of the game was free to play before going free to play

 

2) What part of the game is free to play since going free to play

 

3) What is the reasoning for paying the same 15 bucks a month for a now practically free game?

 

Ill answer 3 for you.... because they added in cartel coins.

[SavingPrincess]

I've done the economics analysis. I'll keep my sub.

 

I think that's the giant misconception here. No one is asking you to un-sub, I'm a sub and will stay that way, but I also want to be valued as a consumer with more than "well we're not taking anything away from you" like my apartment analogy in my previous post.

 

I don't understand why in your mind this seems to be a bad idea.

[Andryah]

Failed logic. You have to factor in what they are now giving away for free... (i.e. all story content) and take that off the table, then look at what you actually GET for paying the subscription (i.e. quickbars, UI, character slots, etc.) because that is what the subscription NOW pays for. So you would have to value all that out, and then add in the 500 coins, and compare thusly. You are no longer paying for story content, because that is free.

 

For you as a subscriber... in the context of the cost to you as a subscriber for the 500 coins...none of the above factors into what I asked, nor the answers. You are trying to side step the questions and the answers.

 

Before F2P... you as a subcriber paid $15 per month. You received subscriber access to the game.

 

After F2P... you as a subscriber pay $15 per month. You revceive subscriber level access to the game. + 500 coins.

 

If you want to argue that your subscription of $15 does not give you what you want.. fine.. have at it. But that is a separate issue from your claim that the 500 coins are not complimentary to you on the part of Bioware. A premium/free player gets no such reward and they have to pay additional incremental real $$ to gain the same benefit.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Andryah

[SavingPrincess]

For you as a subscriber... in the context of the cost to you as a subscriber for the 500 coins...none of the above factors into what I asked, nor the answers. You are trying to side step the questions and the answers.

 

Before F2P... you as a subcriber paid $15 per month. You received subscriber access to the game.

 

After F2P... you as a subscriber pay $15 per month. You revceive subscriber level access to the game. + 500 coins.

 

If you want to argue that your subscription of $15 does not give you what you want.. fine.. have at it. But that is a separate issue from your claim that the 500 coins are not complimentary to you on the part of Bioware. A premium/free player gets no such reward and they have to pay additional incremental real $$ to gain the same benefit.

 

But the story content of the game now has a value of $0... you see that right?

 

EDIT: Or rather the story content has been replaced by 500 coins as a subscription benefit. Does this make sense to you? Am I not being clear enough?

Edited May 2, 2013 by SavingPrincess
Clarification

[Andryah]

I think that's the giant misconception here. No one is asking you to un-sub, I'm a sub and will stay that way, but I also want to be valued as a consumer with more than "well we're not taking anything away from you" like my apartment analogy in my previous post.

 

I don't understand why in your mind this seems to be a bad idea.

 

I feel valued as a customer. If I did not, I would not subscribe.

 

I also recognize, as a long time customer of MMOs that MMOs change. Content comes, content goes, even the commercial terms under which I access a game changes.

[Soluss]

For you as a subscriber... in the context of the cost to you as a subscriber for the 500 coins...none of the above factors into what I asked, nor the answers. You are trying to side step the questions and the answers.

 

Before F2P... you as a subcriber paid $15 per month. You received subscriber access to the game.

 

After F2P... you as a subscriber pay $15 per month. You revceive subscriber level access to the game. + 500 coins.

 

If you want to argue that your subscription of $15 does not give you what you want.. fine.. have at it. But that is a separate issue from your claim that the 500 coins are not complimentary to you on the part of Bioware. A premium/free player gets no such reward and they have to pay additional incremental real $$ to gain the same benefit.

 

Yes, keep completely negelecting that you can now play for free when you could not before. When you can play for free the 15 bucks has to be worth something... at this stage it is worth flashpoints, warzones, ops and cartel coins. Before, it was worth playing the game. Now you dont need to pay to play it. Keep ignoring that.

[Andryah]

But the story content of the game now has a value of $0... you see that right?

 

The story content has exactly the same value it always had. Bioware has simply made a business choice to NOT CHARGE FOR IT in it's new flexible access model. That is their choice to make. Such a choice does not devalue the story content in any way.