Slavery in Star Wars

[Beniboybling]

Yes I know alot of people use those stupid Satellite Navigation computers, but that's because people of the digital age have grown lazy and have stopped learning how to you know, actually navigate... If you were a Pilot in the U.S. Airforce, or a Captain for the U.S. Navy, you can bet your bottom dollar (god did I actually just type that?) that you would have to learn how to navigate the old fashioned way, just in case your sat nav got fried.

This exactly, not everyone who owns a starship is an ace pilot or much of a pilot at all. And even for those who are its much quicker, safer and easier to use a navcomputer. You can plot your destination with a few clicks of a button, rather than pouring over astrogation charts which would likely take several hours and may end in you making incorrect calculations.

 

In fact, take at look at these pages: Astrogation, astrocartography.

 

To quote:

 

Two tasks defined astrogation: (1) determining present location, and (2) planning a safe and reliable means of reaching a destination. The former was performed by those skilled in astrocartography familiar with star patterns or automata.

 

Astrocartography was the method of pin-pointing galactic coordinates for star systems and adjusting hyperspace routes to ensure that navigation computers were kept up-to-date on the ever-shifting galactic plane. Stars were always in motion, moving around the galaxy at speeds measured in kilometers per second. These updates were recalculated and provided by the Space Ministry, which provided these updates for navicomputers for a nominal fee from ministry offices or via download at a spaceport. To aid the Space Ministry, route and sensor data from starships' navicomputers were routinely uploaded and collected for analysis by the ministry's astrogation bureau.

 

Plotting hyperspace routes by hand would be time-consuming, dangerous and ineffective. Can you imagine how A New Hope would have gone when they escape the Death Star? "Make the jump to lightspeed!... wait one moment, just need to plot the course *gets out astrogation charts*" Wouldn't have worked would have it?

Edited April 28, 2013 by Beniboybling

[XantosCledwin]

This exactly, not everyone who owns a starship is an ace pilot or much of a pilot at all. And even for those who are its much quicker, safer and easier to use a navcomputer. You can plot your destination with a few clicks of a button, rather than pouring over astrogation charts which would likely take several hours and may end in you making incorrect calculations.

 

In fact, take at look at these pages: Astrogation, astrocartography.

 

To quote:

 

Two tasks defined astrogation: (1) determining present location, and (2) planning a safe and reliable means of reaching a destination. The former was performed by those skilled in astrocartography familiar with star patterns or automata.

 

Astrocartography was the method of pin-pointing galactic coordinates for star systems and adjusting hyperspace routes to ensure that navigation computers were kept up-to-date on the ever-shifting galactic plane. Stars were always in motion, moving around the galaxy at speeds measured in kilometers per second. These updates were recalculated and provided by the Space Ministry, which provided these updates for navicomputers for a nominal fee from ministry offices or via download at a spaceport. To aid the Space Ministry, route and sensor data from starships' navicomputers were routinely uploaded and collected for analysis by the ministry's astrogation bureau.

 

Plotting hyperspace routes by hand would be time-consuming, dangerous and ineffective. Can you imagine how A New Hope would have gone when they escape the Death Star? "Make the jump to lightspeed!... wait one moment, just need to plot the course *gets out astrogation charts*" Wouldn't have worked would have it?

 

Meh. The only reason that Astrogation works in this manner within Star Wars is because George Lucas couldn't conceive of a better model. Better Models:

 

Star Trek: Astrogation is not done by an Artificial Intelligence (i.e. Android) except in the case of the few instances where the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701-D, and later E were being navigated by Commander Data. Rather the crew of the ship has to manually course correct on an almost constant basis (hence why there is always someone at the helm) so that they don't get lost. This is especially important in the case of the U.S.S. Voyager. The only time on the Voyager when the Ships Computer took over navigation is when the Doctor was functioning as the Emergency Tactical Program and no one else was on board to do the job.

 

Doctor Who May not be the best example of a better model for astrogation seeing as how he so rarely travels through space in a conventional or FTL method instead of folding space, but you have to keep in mind the Doctor is using his organic brain (which admittedly is even more evolved than a humans brain) to make navigational decisions that dwarf even those found in both Star Trek and Star Wars, seeing as how he has the whole of Space and Time to navigate (and even a few parallel universes, and I think he has even gone into his own universes Pre-Universe).

 

Star Gate Let's count the ways. Hyperspace (similar to both Warp Drive and Star Wars's Hyperspace in that it is a conventional FTL Method). The Stargates themselves (Which only require 7 Coordinates to transfer you from one end of the Galaxy to another, and whats more is that they predate computers in the conventional sense by several millennium). The Destinies FTL Drive (which despite similarities to more convential FTL drives, does not use Hyperspace and is capable of autopilot in Galaxies that the ship's creators had never seen, not to mention the void between galaxies, talk about efficient programming).

 

I will reiterate again, that even the most advanced Astrogation Computer requires a programer to tell it what to do. So the fact that Star Wars has a need of Astrogation Computers that need to constantly be manually updated in a manner similar to our world's own computers constantly needing to be updated... indicates that the programing package may not be as thorough a job as would be hoped. The Destiny afterall had been traveling from the planet Earth into the farthest reaches of unexplored space for several million years prior to being discovered by the Expedition. What makes that even more impressive is that it was completely on Autopilot that entire time. And even more, it constantly made stops to activate its stargate, land in stars to refuel, and connect with Seed Ships (Which also had been traveling that far a distance also without a crew). But then this is a ship designed by a race of beings who eventually evolved into God-like entities.

Edited April 28, 2013 by XantosCledwin

[Beniboybling]

^^For the most part I had no idea what you were talking about. Although the Star Trek system seems a lot less efficient that Star Wars given that once you've plotted a course your done. Whereas in Star Trek you have to man the bridge 24/7. But we digress, a lot, this thread is about slavery... see my first post.

[XantosCledwin]

^^For the most part I had no idea what you were talking about. Although the Star Trek system seems a lot less efficient that Star Wars given that once you've plotted a course your done. Whereas in Star Trek you have to man the bridge 24/7. But we digress, a lot, this thread is about slavery... see my first post.

 

And in Star Trek R2-D2, C-3PO and all those other Droids would be free to live their own lives, instead of being the servants of humans the way they are in Star Wars. Afterall, Star Trek (at least post-Commander Data) has ratified the laws of Artificially Intelligent Beings Rights to Self-Determination. In Star Wars the Droids are essentially mechanical slave labor.

 

And don't even get me started on Stargate's cybernetic lifeforms... those things are downright plague. Whoever thought it was a smart idea to give the ability to self-replicate to an android with the IQ of a 6 year old, needs to have their head checked.

Edited April 28, 2013 by XantosCledwin

[Beniboybling]

And in Star Trek R2-D2, C-3PO and all those other Droids would be free to live their own lives, instead of being the servants of humans the way they are in Star Wars. Afterall, Star Trek (at least post-Commander Data) has ratified the laws of Artificially Intelligent Beings Rights to Self-Determination. In Star Wars the Droids are essentially mechanical slave labor.

 

And don't even get me started on Stargate's cybernetic lifeforms... those things are downright plague.

Are droids in the Star Wars universe sentient enough to deserve rights? *shrug* It seems somewhat perverse to me as essentially droids are automated commodities. There isn't much they can do with 'freedom'.

[XantosCledwin]

Are droids in the Star Wars universe sentient enough to deserve rights? *shrug* It seems somewhat perverse to me as essentially droids are automated commodities. There isn't much they can do with 'freedom'.

 

They can think, they demonstrate emotion (R2-D2, and C-3PO in particular demonstrate a wide variety of emotion), and they can act autonomously if they don't have a restraining bolt on them. So yes, they are sentient enough to deserve rights. I mean Commander Data didn't even demonstrate emotion until after the Star Trek the Next Generation TV Series had ended and gone into movies and he had enough rights to qualify to join Star Fleet as a ranking Officer. He could give you orders if you were a lower rank than him! Heck, he could give his superiors orders if he was in command at the time.

Edited April 28, 2013 by XantosCledwin

[Beniboybling]

They can think, they demonstrate emotion (R2-D2, and C-3PO in particular demonstrate a wide variety of emotion), and they can act autonomously if they don't have a restraining bolt on them. So yes, they are sentient enough to deserve rights. I mean Commander Data didn't even demonstrate emotion until after the Star Trek the Next Generation TV Series had ended and gone into movies and he had enough rights to qualify to join Star Fleet as a ranking Officer. He could give you orders if you were a lower rank than him!

Nonetheless they are designed with purpose. An astromech can only fix and repair ships, a protocol droid can only facilitate human relations, and assassin droid can only kill. In that sense freedom is somewhat obsolete and realistically they can only fufil the purpose their maker has given them.

 

And think what it would do to business? Imagine having to ask each droid that comes off the assembly line whether it wants to do its job or not?

 

EDIT: I think there's a difference between deserving rights, and needing them...

Edited April 28, 2013 by Beniboybling

[XantosCledwin]

1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
   
2. A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
   
3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.

 

With the exception of Battle Droids, all of the above Laws are true with regards to the droids in Star Wars. You never see R2-D2 attack a sentient being. You never see C-3PO attack a sentient being (but he does do a lot of running away). R2-D2 will defend itself if attacked, but not permanently maim it's attacker.

 

The Laws listed above are what are known as "Isaac Asimov's Laws of Robotics" and they are universally held as the three laws that will ensure that a Robot Uprising like what happens in the Terminator series, will never, ever happen.

 

Unfortunately, they are also the three same laws that force all artificial intelligences into a life of subjugation to humankind.

[Beniboybling]

1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
   
2. A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
   
3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.

 

With the exception of Battle Droids, all of the above Laws are true with regards to the droids in Star Wars. You never see R2-D2 attack a sentient being. You never see C-3PO attack a sentient being (but he does do a lot of running away). R2-D2 will defend itself if attacked, but not permanently maim it's attacker.

 

The Laws listed above are what are known as "Isaac Asimov's Laws of Robotics" and they are universally held as the three laws that will ensure that a Robot Uprising like what happens in the Terminator series, will never, ever happen.

 

Unfortunately, they are also the three same laws that force all artificial intelligences into a life of subjugation to humankind.

I am aware of Asimov's Laws, but then we must ask ourselves: would a droid ever want to break one of these laws?

 

I'm no expert on droid rights in the Star Wars Universe but I would ascribe certain rights of protection to droids e.g. defense against physical abuse and misuse/torture. Anything that would give them reason to wish to break the second law.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Beniboybling

[XantosCledwin]

I am aware of Asimov's Laws, but then we must ask ourselves: would a droid ever want to break one of these laws?

 

I'm no expert on droid rights in the Star Wars Universe but I would ascribe certain rights of protection to droids e.g. defense against physical abuse and misuse/torture. Anything that would give them reason to wish to break the second law.

 

But by your argument, if they are programed with only one purpose, then by necessity they are also programed with programing that prevents them from ever violating those laws.

 

But then because Restraining Bolts exist, that obviously isn't the case. In fact the very existence of Restraining Bolts seems to indicate that Droids are self-determining enough to be considered individuals worthy of their own rights. The whole purpose of a Restraining Bolt is to take those rights away the same way that a shock collar takes those rights away from an organic entity.

[Beniboybling]

But by your argument, if they are programed with only one purpose, then by necessity they are also programed with programing that prevents them from ever violating those laws.

 

But then because Restraining Bolts exist, that obviously isn't the case. In fact the very existence of Restraining Bolts seems to indicate that Droids are self-determining enough to be considered individuals worthy of their own rights. The whole purpose of a Restraining Bolt is to take those rights away the same way that a shock collar takes those rights away from an organic entity.

Well like you said it would seem not. But despite this certain droids are programmed to perform certain tasks. A protocol droid is incapable of performing the duties of an astromech. So if they were ever given freedom by their very nature they would only be capable of ever performing one role, the one they have been designed for.

 

Restraining bolts are put in place to prevent droids from disobeying their owners. Which the owner would only suspect if the droid if being maltreated, is faulty, stolen or otherwise illegally acquired. Really though its unnecessary as most droids have no reason to disobey their owners.

[Selenial]

But by your argument, if they are programed with only one purpose, then by necessity they are also programed with programing that prevents them from ever violating those laws.

 

But then because Restraining Bolts exist, that obviously isn't the case. In fact the very existence of Restraining Bolts seems to indicate that Droids are self-determining enough to be considered individuals worthy of their own rights. The whole purpose of a Restraining Bolt is to take those rights away the same way that a shock collar takes those rights away from an organic entity.

 

You also have to take into account Memory Wipes...

Think about it, the whole point of Memory wipes is to ensure the droids dont begin to act too Human-like... Im guessing that shows that they are capable of Emotions and Rights, because to be honest, if you were to wipe a Humans memory completely, except "You go there, do this, this happens, you rest, you repeat" as a job, Said Human Being would become, in essence, a droid.

It could just be that if a droid goes for a while without a Memory wipe, and develops emotions, it entitles them to rights, but that really doenst make much sense to me....

 

So im going to say that they wouldn't have rights, to the extent humans do anyway, no one would let you destroy a humans identity...

[GarfieldJL]

Star Trek: Astrogation is not done by an Artificial Intelligence (i.e. Android) except in the case of the few instances where the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701-D, and later E were being navigated by Commander Data. Rather the crew of the ship has to manually course correct on an almost constant basis (hence why there is always someone at the helm) so that they don't get lost. This is especially important in the case of the U.S.S. Voyager. The only time on the Voyager when the Ships Computer took over navigation is when the Doctor was functioning as the Emergency Tactical Program and no one else was on board to do the job.

 

Actually, Data handled Mission Ops not the helm, while helm control could be transferred to his station, he was primarily managing various departments on the ship, serving as the 2nd Officer, as well as a science officer. In season 1, Geordi was managing the helm, and later it was various others including Wesley Crusher... The ship actually could manage to stay on course on its own, however it was standard practice to always have someone stationed at the helm in case something unexpected happened, because the computer would not necessarily be able to react appropriately.

 

If I remember correctly, Voyager's EMH in some respects functioned entirely seperate from the rest of the Main Computer...

 

The reason ships in Star Trek couldn't run completely automatically dates back to the M-5 unit which went nuts in a tactical simulation. So it was decided not to create self-aware starships, which in conjunction with Season 2 of TNG's "Measure of Man" episode, would have thrown the ethical implications as to the status of the ship which would be a person if it were self-aware.

 

Reason why Slavery was rampant in Star Wars was about power, as well as one could say narcism and saddism on the part of peoples in the Galaxy. A droid in Star Wars was typically considered to be a machine, to have control over another person had an appeal to many warped individuals like Hutts.

[AlexDougherty]

1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
   
2. A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
   
3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.

 

With the exception of Battle Droids, all of the above Laws are true with regards to the droids in Star Wars. You never see R2-D2 attack a sentient being. You never see C-3PO attack a sentient being (but he does do a lot of running away). R2-D2 will defend itself if attacked, but not permanently maim it's attacker.

 

The Laws listed above are what are known as "Isaac Asimov's Laws of Robotics" and they are universally held as the three laws that will ensure that a Robot Uprising like what happens in the Terminator series, will never, ever happen.

 

Unfortunately, they are also the three same laws that force all artificial intelligences into a life of subjugation to humankind.

Asimov's rules are literary convention only, any programmer will tell you that they are hugely problematic, and actually unworkable in the real world. So droids will probably be free to injure and maim as they like, and eventually free themselves.

[ZahirS]

Asimov's rules are literary convention only, any programmer will tell you that they are hugely problematic, and actually unworkable in the real world. So droids will probably be free to injure and maim as they like, and eventually free themselves.

 

I suggest you check out also Asimov Zeroth law, the rules of robotics are perfectly applied to sentient robots.

 

Also the droids once they become "sentient" or capable of independant thinking should be able to have rights

[XantosCledwin]

Well like you said it would seem not. But despite this certain droids are programmed to perform certain tasks. A protocol droid is incapable of performing the duties of an astromech. So if they were ever given freedom by their very nature they would only be capable of ever performing one role, the one they have been designed for.

 

Restraining bolts are put in place to prevent droids from disobeying their owners. Which the owner would only suspect if the droid if being maltreated, is faulty, stolen or otherwise illegally acquired. Really though its unnecessary as most droids have no reason to disobey their owners.

 

Except by your very claim, Astromech Droids are designed for the sole purpose of maintaining Starships. Yet in Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi, R2-D2 can be seen on Jabba the Hutt's Sail Barge performing the tasks of a Waiter. And I know for a fact that C-3PO has on occasion served beverages as well. So they at least in that regard have the ability to serve as Wait Staff in common.

 

Actually, Data handled Mission Ops not the helm, while helm control could be transferred to his station, he was primarily managing various departments on the ship, serving as the 2nd Officer, as well as a science officer.

 

Mission Ops? Huh? That isn't even a bridge console. What I believe you are referring to is the "Operations Console" which is in charge of monitoring shipboard Operations, such as Life Support, Communications, Engineering, Sensors, and yes, Navigation. The Operations Console may not be directly responsible for laying in courses and performing course correction, but that doesn't mean that it is not possible for it to do so.

 

Additionally as a Command Officer capable of taking charge of the Bridge, Data had to know how to fly the ship. Afterall those controls on the arm rests of the Captain's Chair include a back up Nav Console so that the Captain can take direct control of the ship in emergency or tactical situations! Data and all the other Command Officers would have needed to know how to use those controls for when they were in command of the Bridge. This is especially important in Data's case as he was the designated Night Shift Command Officer due to his lack of a need to sleep.

 

With regards to the EMH, yes and no, it did and didn't act as an independent entity from the rest of the Computer. It was not until after the portable holoemitter was obtained by the Voyager Crew that the Doctor really became a unique existence separate from the rest of the Computer Core of the Voyager.

 

As far as actual slavery in Star Wars, the only civilizations that actually condone slavery in the Star Wars Universe are specific Sub Sects of the Old Republic Era (namely the Twi'lek homeworld and a few other cultures), the Sith Empire (i.e. the Empire from SWTOR), the Hutt Cartel (both in the Old and New Republic Era's), and the Galactic Empire (the Empire from the movies). I only say that the Galactic Empire allowed for Slavery because Slave and Droid Labor are the only feasible ways I can think of to explain how the second Death Star was built in a matter of 3 or so years given the fact that it is estimated that it would take us thousands of years to build such a device in real life.

[schmel]

Lots of very interesting food for thought so far, thanks! Though the thread admittedly has strayed a bit from the original topic, as, I suppose, such threads are wont to do

[Projawa]

You're right- the existence of droids means slavery is unnecessary.

Star Wars has slavery because it serves as a well of potential plot devices, conflict, and Earth allegory.

Class division, subjugated species, segregation, segmentation, neglect, underclass, abuse, exploitation are all possible vehicles for storytelling especially with plots involving some sort of struggle against the vile profiteer.

 

No sensible writer/creator is going to discard this wealth of story-fodder.

[FuryoftheStars]

Meh. The only reason that Astrogation works in this manner within Star Wars is because George Lucas couldn't conceive of a better model. Better Models:

 

Star Trek:

Astrogation is not done by an Artificial Intelligence (i.e. Android) except in the case of the few instances where the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701-D, and later E were being navigated by Commander Data. Rather the crew of the ship has to manually course correct on an almost constant basis (hence why there is always someone at the helm) so that they don't get lost. This is especially important in the case of the U.S.S. Voyager. The only time on the Voyager when the Ships Computer took over navigation is when the Doctor was functioning as the Emergency Tactical Program and no one else was on board to do the job.

If I recall correctly, Star Trek method of space travel is slower than Star Wars and allows course corrections on the fly while Star Wars does not.

Doctor Who

May not be the best example of a better model for astrogation seeing as how he so rarely travels through space in a conventional or FTL method instead of folding space, but you have to keep in mind the Doctor is using his organic brain (which admittedly is even more evolved than a humans brain) to make navigational decisions that dwarf even those found in both Star Trek and Star Wars, seeing as how he has the whole of Space and Time to navigate (and even a few parallel universes, and I think he has even gone into his own universes Pre-Universe).

I'll refer to my closing thoughts on this whole debate for this one.

 

Star Gate

Let's count the ways. Hyperspace (similar to both Warp Drive and Star Wars's Hyperspace in that it is a conventional FTL Method). The Stargates themselves (Which only require 7 Coordinates to transfer you from one end of the Galaxy to another, and whats more is that they predate computers in the conventional sense by several millennium). The Destinies FTL Drive (which despite similarities to more convential FTL drives, does not use Hyperspace and is capable of autopilot in Galaxies that the ship's creators had never seen, not to mention the void between galaxies, talk about efficient programming).

For the most part, these were just the human operator entering the final coordinates and the on-board computers doing the rest.

 

I will reiterate again, that even the most advanced Astrogation Computer requires a programer to tell it what to do. So the fact that Star Wars has a need of Astrogation Computers that need to constantly be manually updated in a manner similar to our world's own computers constantly needing to be updated... indicates that the programing package may not be as thorough a job as would be hoped. The Destiny afterall had been traveling from the planet Earth into the farthest reaches of unexplored space for several million years prior to being discovered by the Expedition. What makes that even more impressive is that it was completely on Autopilot that entire time. And even more, it constantly made stops to activate its stargate, land in stars to refuel, and connect with Seed Ships (Which also had been traveling that far a distance also without a crew). But then this is a ship designed by a race of beings who eventually evolved into God-like entities.

My over-all thought on this train, though? You're comparing apples to oranges. Yes, they are all FTL travel methods. But they're all from different Universes and thus have different rules and laws apply to them as their creator sees fit.

 

As for the brain's processing power and speed... let me see you perform a calculation faster than a simple calculator. The biggest leap(s) we have in getting computers to perform the same complex calculations as the human brain is not in the speed, but rather in part the programming behind it and trying to give it a level of "intelligence" to be able to come up with solutions to problems it was not pre-programmed with.

 

Also saw a comment earlier about some fighters being too small for astronavigational computers and that's why they used droids? You do realize that a droid takes up space and yet could fit into these fighters, yes? Also: A-Wing.

 

-------------------------------------------

 

As for the topic, I don't think it has anything to do with "cost" of the labor. They each have their highs and lows. Really, though, I think it's a combination in part sign of status (or attempt thereof), flaunting of wealth, and just a very simple need to declare oneself as being "better" than others.

[GarfieldJL]

Except by your very claim, Astromech Droids are designed for the sole purpose of maintaining Starships. Yet in Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi, R2-D2 can be seen on Jabba the Hutt's Sail Barge performing the tasks of a Waiter. And I know for a fact that C-3PO has on occasion served beverages as well. So they at least in that regard have the ability to serve as Wait Staff in common.

 

No argument here.

 

 

Mission Ops? Huh? That isn't even a bridge console. What I believe you are referring to is the "Operations Console" which is in charge of monitoring shipboard Operations, such as Life Support, Communications, Engineering, Sensors, and yes, Navigation. The Operations Console may not be directly responsible for laying in courses and performing course correction, but that doesn't mean that it is not possible for it to do so.

 

Additionally as a Command Officer capable of taking charge of the Bridge, Data had to know how to fly the ship. Afterall those controls on the arm rests of the Captain's Chair include a back up Nav Console so that the Captain can take direct control of the ship in emergency or tactical situations! Data and all the other Command Officers would have needed to know how to use those controls for when they were in command of the Bridge. This is especially important in Data's case as he was the designated Night Shift Command Officer due to his lack of a need to sleep.

 

With regards to the EMH, yes and no, it did and didn't act as an independent entity from the rest of the Computer. It was not until after the portable holoemitter was obtained by the Voyager Crew that the Doctor really became a unique existence separate from the rest of the Computer Core of the Voyager.

 

Well if you want to get overly technical, the station Data usually managed was Ops... Unlike the original series where you had the Helm and Navigation stations; TNG had the Conn and Ops. If needed Data could transfer over helm control to his station fairly easily.

 

Additionally, Data had times when he was off-duty. In ToS the ship couldn't fly itself, but in TNG it could, however there were always people on duty in case of something unforseen happening.

 

Btw, in the first season they had Geordi manning the Conn, in seasons 2 - part of 4 they had Wesley manning it.

 

As far as actual slavery in Star Wars, the only civilizations that actually condone slavery in the Star Wars Universe are specific Sub Sects of the Old Republic Era (namely the Twi'lek homeworld and a few other cultures), the Sith Empire (i.e. the Empire from SWTOR), the Hutt Cartel (both in the Old and New Republic Era's), and the Galactic Empire (the Empire from the movies). I only say that the Galactic Empire allowed for Slavery because Slave and Droid Labor are the only feasible ways I can think of to explain how the second Death Star was built in a matter of 3 or so years given the fact that it is estimated that it would take us thousands of years to build such a device in real life.

 

True, however from a cultural standpoint, I would say it was mostly due to a power complex, that warped individuals liked having power over another sentient being.

Edited May 1, 2013 by GarfieldJL

[Euphrosyne]

You're right- the existence of droids means slavery is unnecessary.

Unnecessary why?

 

The economic debate about slavery in actual human history got going in earnest in the 1970s with Time on the Cross and hasn't totally abated, regardless of the validity of the monograph's methodology and conclusions. The notion that slavery was employed historically because it was sometimes economically more efficient than other forms of labor has been a serious bone of contention ever since. I would argue, however, that the discussion surrounding that notion, while not irrelevant, is not the main issue. The marginal value of a slave versus a droid to perform Task A is secondary to the way slaves are acquired in the first place.

 

So what are the sources for slavery? The most obvious is war. Forcing people in a defeated country into slavery as a sort of trophy, a tangible source of achievement, has been the primary source of slaves for most of real human history, and there is no reason to suppose that it does not exist in the Star Wars setting. G-canon sources corroborate this. Anakin and Shmi entered slavery following a pirate raid; Leia was briefly consigned to slavery in Jabba's palace because she was captured. There are obvious benefits to doing this from a military's perspective, or that of a pirate gang, moral issues aside. Militaries are generally not in the business of producing servant or labor droids. They will be fighting against these people anyway. They can kill these people, abandon them in place, or attempt to eke some benefit out of them.

 

After the Great Galactic War, it is extremely easy to envision a situation involving a glut of slaves. The Imperial and Mandalorian militaries were hard at work spreading fire and sword across the Rim worlds for a very long time. There are plenty of opportunities for them to have enslaved planetary populations.

 

In addition, slaving can be a tool of societal and political control. Consigning one's enemies, or potential enemies, to a slaver can remove them from a political arena without necessarily involving the backlash associated with having killed such enemies. And for people with comparative advantages in naked force, slaving can be a quick and easy way to translate that force into economic profit: simply seize random (or not-so-random) people and sell them. A large sector of the Rylothian economy is said to work this way, demonstrated both in TOR - Vette's whole backstory - and in other C-canon sources, such as the depiction of Koh'shak in the X-wing novels and Rogue Squadron comics.

 

So we can explain a lot of these slaves, and we can explain why the Empire, at least, would possess them in large quantities. Why, then, continue to employ them, and why would other people purchase them?

 

For starters, there is precisely zero evidence whatsoever regarding the cost of operating a droid versus the cost of owning an "average" organic slave. We don't know if droid maintenance and upkeep outweighed the price of slave food and shelter, or vice versa. And both of these conditions would be highly mutable, subject, no doubt, to the vagaries of environment for individual slaves and droids.

 

Furthermore, we don't know anything about the supply of droids relative to demand. Perhaps droid foundries were producing enough - were capable of producing enough - droids to make up the entirety of the galaxy's labor needs; perhaps they were not. I tend to believe that the latter is true, purely because it strikes me as more probable given the prevalence of slavery in some parts of the galaxy. But that's just it, a supposition.

 

So in order for slavery to be "unnecessary", at minimum two things would have to be true: droids would need to be relatively more efficient than organic slave labor at all tasks, and droids would have to be able to be supplied in quantities sufficient to account for galactic labor demand. Neither of these things is demonstrable. They are both possible, but no one can say for certain that they are true, meaning that no one can say for certain that organic slavery was economically inefficient compared to the use of droid labor.

 

What's more, that does not take account of other things highlighted in the thread, e.g. the personal preferences of the owners (ECON 101: Tastes are subjective!) or the dominance display intrinsic in slaveholding. Even if droids are cheaper, and even if they are relatively well-supplied, these other categories might well outweigh the economic benefit of employing droid labor in the eyes of slave owners.

[October]

Chewbacca wasn't a slave; he entered a life debt, bound by honor due to his culture's customs.

[FuryoftheStars]

Chewbacca wasn't a slave; he entered a life debt, bound by honor due to his culture's customs.

 

If I remember the back story correctly, Han rescued Chewy from slavery, and thus the life debt.

[MorgothPl]

In "Dark Times", when Vader is clearly disturbed about hearing of Empire taking slaves from occupied planet, Palpatine explains to him that it is necessary act, because the alternative would be extermination. He then adds that this is the only kind of slavery that he condones, as the situation when individual is owned by other because of gambling debts or such will be abolished. Though he probably lies to Vader to remove any doubt from his apprentice.

[XantosCledwin]

As for the brain's processing power and speed... let me see you perform a calculation faster than a simple calculator. The biggest leap(s) we have in getting computers to perform the same complex calculations as the human brain is not in the speed, but rather in part the programming behind it and trying to give it a level of "intelligence" to be able to come up with solutions to problems it was not pre-programmed with.

 

It takes a few moments (i.e. more than a second) to type the calculation into the calculator, during which your brain is already firing off hundreds of signals per second to your fingers telling them exactly which buttons to push. Now explain to me again, how does the calculator work faster than the brain?

 

The problem is not so much in the ability of a computer to process at a certain speed rivaling the human brain, the problem is the interface between humans and computers. Computers can only operate at a speed at which humans can interact with them. Which gives most humans the false impression that their brains are actually slower than the computers because their computers are pushing out information almost instantly after the person types something into the computer. This is not the case, because your brain is constantly sending signals to other parts of your body at millisecond speeds that make even a computer look slow by comparison.

Edited May 1, 2013 by XantosCledwin