Subscription: Advertisement vs Truth

[Shoogli]

So you guys pat each others on the back for 2 or 3 pages, conviniently forgetting that this thread is not only about Cathar that we'll indeed be able to buy at the GTN but *also* about 2.1 customization changes and the barbershop that will on the other hand be CC only and for subbers as well ?

 

This is pathetic...

[Grayseven]

Seriously get over it. If you cant understand that subs get free coins then theres no point of talking to you.

 

And what you and others like you fail to understand is that this is but a small step towards adding basic game functions to the Cartel Market instead of including them in expansions and updates without cost to subscribers.

 

What else will be considered cosmetic? Crafting schematics for Adaptive Armors or speeders? New classes? The ability to change advanced class? When will the dam finally break and we find out that the only way to get new features is to drop 40 bucks on Cartel Coins or do without for 4 months to pay for it with the 8 bucks in CC per month subscribers get?

 

Race may be cosmetic, but it is a basic feature that is one of the first things anyone does when first playing the game. Cathar should have been included in the expansion but were instead held out for nothing more than a money grab.

 

You can roll over and show your belly to BW/EA if you like, but I for one will not let this go without voicing repeatedly my displeasure in this decision...regardless of how BW/EA's mouthpiece tries to sugar coat it and explain it away as inconsequential. If people don't let their opinions be well known, we will see an escalation of this type of decision by BW/EA and before long you'll wish you'd taken a stand that didn't include being a fanboi.

[Andryah]

And what you and others like you fail to understand is that this is but a small step towards adding basic game functions to the Cartel Market instead of including them in expansions and updates without cost to subscribers.

 

Sorry pal.. but you flunked reading comprehension, or forum awareness, or perhaps both.

 

Eric covered this in the other thread... and since you are posting in that thread as well.. we can assume you read what Eric posted... but just in case.... here you go.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6230939&postcount=94

 

Hey everyone,

 

There is clearly some frustration around this but I believe there are also some misconceptions about Cathar and our intent for subscribers so I wanted to hopefully clarify some of that for you. One thing we have stressed before and one thing we will continue to do with the Cartel Market is to use it for customization and convenience options. Another goal we have stressed for the Cartel Market is to not use it as a method for pay to win.

 

Game Update 2.1 does introduce entirely new customization options, like the Cathar, which will require Cartel Coins in order to gain access to. Although I understand your frustration around this, we always take into consideration when pricing Cartel Market items that all subscribers receive a monthly grant of Cartel Coins. For example, if you are currently a subscriber who has a security key active on your account, you will be able to outright purchase Cathar with just one month’s worth of Cartel Coins. We also try to give you as much notice as possible around new features like this so that if it is your desire to purchase these unlocks, you will be able to do so solely through saving your monthly Cartel Coin grant.

 

What I think is a misconception is that this is setting a precedence that we are going to take things away from subscribers. I cannot stress enough that this is simply not something we ever intend to do. The features and functions that you pay for right now as a subscriber will remain in place. We would not, for example, suddenly require you to pay for an unlock to run more Flashpoints. On the flipside of this though, the intent of the Cartel Market is to continually add new and fun cosmetic and convenience features and in some circumstances, subscribers will have to pay Cartel Coins to access these as well. I just want to specifically call out that we will keep these cosmetic as we would certainly not want to place any of our players at a disadvantage for not spending money, AKA not implementing pay-to-win.

One thing I do want to call out for Game Update 2.1, which you will see more details on in the future (from both us and from fan sites) is that subscribers will see a substantial discount on some of the features being implemented in Game Update 2.1, such as Appearance Designer. Not only was your monthly grant kept in mind when pricing the items themselves, but overall things are far cheaper for you as a subscriber than a free-to-play or preferred status player.

 

I know that just the principle that subscribers are being charged for Cathar is causing some of your frustrations, but I hope that I could at least explain a bit about why and to help alleviate any concerns that we would ever take something away from subscribers.

 

-eric

[Ultramecha]

Sorry pal.. but you flunked reading comprehension, or forum awareness, or perhaps both.

 

Eric covered this in the other thread... and since you are posting in that thread as well.. we can assume you read what Eric posted...

 

 

Well said

Edited May 1, 2013 by Ultramecha

[seekerofpower]

I only want to comment on the idea that the Cartel Coins we get each month are free. They are not. You do pay for them.

For those of you that say, "You weren't getting them before, so since you are now and subs are the same, that either makes them free or everything else is discounted," I have this to say:

Before the game went F2P, you were paying to PLAY THE GAME. Now, the game is FREE TO PLAY. So one of the main reasons you would subscribe (the ability to play the game) is no longer included in the sub, yet the sub still costs the same price. Therefore, you are losing a large amount of value in said sub.

What we get each month for our sub (sans the cartel coins) is really worth $5. $10 would be pushing it. Therefore, the "free" 500 coins is really to supplement the last $5-$10 of the sub in order to make it feel like it has value. As such, you are paying for those Cartel Coins. They are, in no way, free.

If you really don't feel that the sub lost value at the F2P switch, then you should probably take some Economics classes or maybe learn about value of product before making more posts.

[Battyone]

I only want to comment on the idea that the Cartel Coins we get each month are free. They are not. You do pay for them.

For those of you that say, "You weren't getting them before, so since you are now and subs are the same, that either makes them free or everything else is discounted," I have this to say:

Before the game went F2P, you were paying to PLAY THE GAME. Now, the game is FREE TO PLAY. So one of the main reasons you would subscribe (the ability to play the game) is no longer included in the sub, yet the sub still costs the same price. Therefore, you are losing a large amount of value in said sub.

What we get each month for our sub (sans the cartel coins) is really worth $5. $10 would be pushing it. Therefore, the "free" 500 coins is really to supplement the last $5-$10 of the sub in order to make it feel like it has value. As such, you are paying for those Cartel Coins. They are, in no way, free.

If you really don't feel that the sub lost value at the F2P switch, then you should probably take some Economics classes or maybe learn about value of product before making more posts.

 

I am paying to play the game, the endgame. I pay to play unlimited warzones, unlimited ops, unlimited flashpoints, wear artifact gear, have all my quickbars, etc.

 

There's plenty of value in subbing versus playing free, and if you see everything as 100% black and white maybe YOU should take some economics classes, or have they stopped covering things like opportunity cost in Econ 101 at your community college?

[jason_ralph]

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Gamers in MMO's love customization. Need to look no further then Marvel's Heroes, as an example. Whether paying for a skin or colors (or whatever) is bad or good, will be answered by the time this game reaches the two year mark. Hopefully, EA / BioWare will adjust accordingly. Regardless of whose right and wrong, you can take away the fact that if people did not care, they would not post here on the forums. Even if you do not agree with them.

[branmakmuffin]

What we get each month for our sub (sans the cartel coins) is really worth $5. $10 would be pushing it. Therefore, the "free" 500 coins is really to supplement the last $5-$10 of the sub in order to make it feel like it has value. As such, you are paying for those Cartel Coins. They are, in no way, free.

Absolutely correct.

 

If you really don't feel that the sub lost value at the F2P switch, then you should probably take some Economics classes or maybe learn about value of product before making more posts.

Theoretically, the CCs make up for the lost value. Maybe you don't think ~500 is enough.

 

Whether they are an incentive or not is irrelevant (and not something I was even referring to), the fact is that they are free, something that you claimed was not the case.

The fact is they are not free, and you repeating "But they are free!" 12 dozen more times will not make them free, even if you hold your breath and stamp your little feet while doing so.

 

Your turn.

Edited May 1, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[MajikMyst]

The fact is they are not free, and you repeating "But they are free!" 12 dozen more times will not make them free, even if you hold your breath and stamp your little feet while doing so.

 

Your turn.

 

Get an attorney.. File a lawsuit against Bioware for use of the word complementary to describe the Cartel Coins subscribers receive..

 

They are free... That is just a fact.. You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts..

 

Either prove your case in court, or provide legal and binding evidence here or admit you are wrong.. Because you are wrong..

 

Your turn..

[Andryah]

The fact is they are not free, and you repeating "But they are free!" 12 dozen more times will not make them free, even if you hold your breath and stamp your little feet while doing so.

 

Following your own theorem here....

 

You repeating "but they are NOT free!" 12 dozen more times will not mean that you are paying for them. Even if you hold your breath and stamp your little feet while doing so.

 

The discussion about complimentay coins given with a subscription is circular and never ending BY YOUR CHOICE. Most people understand and accept the free market model of merchants giving consumers complimentary merchandize when said consumer purchases a product. It is extremely common, even with digital products.

 

You can insist that CCs and this MMO subscription are somehow an exception to the rest of the free market economy if you like. That is your choice, but it does not make you correct in the face of an open market on planet Earth where merchandizers and consumers interact on millions of different products every day (many of which interestingly enough have complimentary merchandize freely given by merchants to consumers every day of the week).

 

You can say you don't like being forced to spend coins to unlock character customization features. And we can discuss and debate that all day long. But at least you have ground to stand on the point, even if it is only personal principle, and I support choices on personal principle, even though I may disagree with them and discuss them accordingly.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Andryah

[Kilora]

I'm dropping this long response here, because really -- it's almost the same argument between both forums.

 

 

 

Alright. You know what the real issue here is? People are being nostalgic. They want to go back to a time when businesses made money AND treated customers well.

 

This really isn't happening anymore.

 

Subscription MMOs are not making companies the money they want to see. Blame whoever you'd like -- but it is no longer a valid business model. WoW has millions upon millions of subscribers -- they're raking in PLENTY of money because of this. If they lost 75% of their subscribers tomorrow -- you'd see them scramble to convert to a new business model.

 

I'd LOVE to go back to EQ. Or even FFXI or the original few expacs of WoW. The games were good, I had a blast -- and all I had to do was pay a set amount per month. Simple, easy -- and I sometimes felt I was stealing from the devs! I DEFINITELY get more enjoyment out of the game in a month than anything else I spend $15+ on. And to continuously get updates and content? Even paying $40-60 for an expac wasn't enough for me to consider it "pricy."

 

Be realistic. If you play 40 hours every week, and pay $15/mo -- you're paying ~$0.40 an hour. I seriously cannot think of another piece of entertainment that gives me anywhere near as much enjoyment for anywhere near that cheap.

 

I've been spoiled. At least, that's how I view it. I don't want to see this game ask for a penny outside of my subscription -- but I'd rather they charge for vanity items alone, if it means playing the game or not playing it at all. I don't have another game I'd rather be playing right now -- so I'd like to see this one continue, and get better.

 

Personally? I don't see a reason to hate BioWare or EA for what they're doing. Sure, I dislike it. And absolutely -- if I find a better game, I'll leave. If they go to far, I'll leave. And -- I'll be MUCH less likely to purchase any game put out by EA in the future.

 

But to hate them? Or to hate the people who are enjoying the game? I don't see a point. That is just ruining the game even more for yourself.

 

 

[Cupelixx]

That completely misses the point, though. Though the original wording did not specifically state as much, the implication was that subscribers would not only have access to all current character creation choices, but to all future character creation choices as well. When you advertise a statement like that, the consumer naturally assumes that it is true now and will continue to be true for the lifetime of the product.

 

Changing the advertised benefits of being a subscriber means that now when we look at the list of subscriber benefits, we have to add "...until we decide to change it" to the end of every advertised benefit. That does not instill confidence in the product or the company providing it.

 

Is it legal? Yes, I believe it is. Is it ethical? That is a matter of no small debate. Does it inspire loyalty in your paying subscribers? No, absolutely not.

 

100% agree, and this is what I tried to explain was so frustrating. To come out and say "right now, yes it means this. But we're changing it for 2.1". The way I read it is exactly what you wrote. Eric came by and posted they will never do that to subbed players, when it appears they are doing EXACTLY that.

[darthnamel]

I believe the issue that you wanted to have addressed is that currently it states "Full access to all character creation choices." As of this moment this terminology is still correct as subscribers do have full access to those choices. We will be updating that page (along with any others that make similar references) once Game Update 2.1 goes live.

 

-eric

 

So as a player that has been here since beta, and was a bit indifferent to the whole Cathar thing, I will not have access to All character creation choices? Well as much as I enjoy the game I feel that using this approach the devs can cut more benefits to us subs till we just have to buy CM items to say in league with the F2P crowd. If we keep getting less benefits for INVESTING in this game, then I guess they would rather have F2P than any subs. This is a slippery slope you guys are going down, cut one benefit sooner or later you will cut more.

[hippiechick]

I think you missed the point..

 

The point is, neither faction had complete access to all the races available.. There wasn't a single republic player that could make a Chiss trooper, unless they unlocked the chiss species.. Are you with me??

 

Is the chiss not part of the character creation?? Are you going to QQ about how the republic faction didn't have complete access to all the species from the start?? Get the point now??

 

The Cathar is a new species.. There is no reason it should be automatically unlocked for either faction.. The idea of unlocking species has been in the game since before launch..

 

This thread is nothing more than a few people QQ about something that has been in the game since the beta.. Either that or they feel so entitled that they shouldn't have to unlock a NEW species being added.. Even though unlocking species wasn't a new concept..

 

I did not miss the point. The races that we dont have access to were obtainable through IN GAME means. It is part of the game play to unlock them. I dont even have a problem if they didnt add that, most games restrict which race/class combos are allowed. YOU arent getting that it isnt about the ability to be a certain race, or not. It is about HOW you get acces to it if it IS allowed. And being forced to use the CM is unacceptable to me. I sub so I DONT HAVE TO USE THE CM. I was under the impression that the options were 1) go free and access some things through the market OR 2) sub up and have all of those things because of it.

 

Which, btw, is what they said I would get. They changed the wording. I dont like doing business with shady companies. I will be unsubbing before my next due date.

 

M

[hippiechick]

Really?? WOW is a game.. It is doing it.. So is GW2.. Is that a game?? They are doing it too.. Guess you are just wrong..

 

WoW does NOT charge real money for the use of their barbershop. Sorry but you are dead wrong on that one.

 

They do charge for race/gender/faction changes through the market but those could be obtained through in game means if one wanted to level another char. Which is the major thing that is ticking people off about the cathar. You HAVE to buy it on the market to get it, period. Unacceptable.

 

M

Edited May 2, 2013 by hippiechick

[hippiechick]

HOW ABOUT THIS:

 

Don't give me my next month's stipend of 600CC, just unlock Cathar for me. Would everyone be up in arms if there was an option like that? I don't use my Cartel coins for anything useful anyway, I just buy the latest pack and always get bad luck. It's a fun little game.

 

I dont care if the coins are free or not, I am equally mad about the issue either way. But this post totally shows how the cathar are NOT free. To get the cathar species unlocked i have to give SOMETHING up. Whether its the pet I would have gotten instead or just a bigger number on my cartel coin total, I am giving something up to get the unlock. THIS IS NOT A FREE SPECIES..

 

M

[Rene_gade]

First of all it's total garbage that subscribers don't get the character for free. Its like the economy we pay our crap so people can play for free. What is the point of being a subscriber? 500 cc a month? Oh ,but wait you say i get the character free since they give me free points? errr wrong. All of yall can buy over 1000 cartel points for my monthly subscription and its total crap. Every one thats ok with it is most likely a f2p. Bioware needs to fix this because it may just cause them to lose monthly subscribers since the fact is proven that you get absolutly no benefit for paying the $15 monthly fee

[MajikMyst]

First of all it's total garbage that subscribers don't get the character for free. Its like the economy we pay our crap so people can play for free. What is the point of being a subscriber? 500 cc a month? Oh ,but wait you say i get the character free since they give me free points? errr wrong.

 

Ummm.. Nope.. Not wrong.. That is how it is.. The coins are free, therefore anything we buy with them is also free.. Which includes the new species..

[Rene_gade]

Ummm.. Nope.. Not wrong.. That is how it is.. The coins are free, therefore anything we buy with them is also free.. Which includes the new species..

How do you get that they are free? I pay 15 dollars a month for 500 coins? if i spent my monthly fee on $15worth of cc a month i would instead have 1500cc which is 3 times the amount i would receive. So actually i am over paying for points now

[hippiechick]

The coins we get are free, or not, who cares. The SPECIES is not. I have to give them my free or not free coins whereas I would have bought something else with them or maybe just banked them for a future fluffy. Whatever I would have done with them I am now forced to give them back to the giver if I want the species cathar, which makes the cathar very much PAID FOR.

 

If you give me a free dollar, then tell me I have to give it back if I want you to talk to me ever again, the dollar isnt free. It came with strings. Now I may choose to keep the dollar and never talk to you again, or I may choose to give it back to you so I can enjoy the lovely lilt in your voice. But your friendship is no longer free. It cost me a dollar. That you gave it to me in the first place is irrelevant. In fact you didnt "give" it to me in the first place. It was a conditional gift and conditional gifts always COST. Engagement rings are conditional gifts. I "give" you this ring and in return you will marry me. Not in return you will go to disneyland. You will MARRY ME. THAT IS NOT A GIFT.

 

Sheesh ppl, Its irrelevant if the coins are free or not once they put a condition on them. We lose something if we choose to play Cathar, NOT FREE.

 

M

PS yeah yeah, I know. Species is not character creation so its just like all the other items in the market. But it is character creation. Go ahead, create one without choosing a species.

Edited May 5, 2013 by hippiechick

[Stormcrest]

You do know, Star Trek: Online is one the WORST MMO's available. I am a massive Trekkie and I have always loved Star Trek but I will not support the blatent RAPE that Cryptic have done to the franchise in order to gather funds and do as little work as possible. Here is my breakdown, as an STO player of 3 years.

 

STO

 

- Blatent P2W Ships Outclassing Free/Previously Paid Vessels on the Zen Store. (I.E. The Recluse Carrier replacing the Atrox) to encourage people to pay for lockbox keys.

- No significant development of PVP since launch or rebalance (DPS is king and so is the Jem Hadar Bug Ship (Also a lockbox P2W ship)

- Complete bias towards tactical ships such as the Defiant. Science and Engineering HEAVILY outclassed by Tactical and their insane DPS boost. Science only useful for Sub-Nuc (only debuff ability in the game) and thats it. Engineers defunct.

- Upcoming Romulan Faction was a blantent lie where you play non-imperial Romulan who are a bunch of colonists.

- Ignoring the Star Trek fanbase by refusing to buff ships such as the Galaxy Class, an iconic ship which has been ruined by the this game. The upcoming D'Deridex has also been designed to be purposely weak because its a cruiser.

- Refusing to fix bugs since launch because "fixing bugs does not generate profit and greed is eternal"

- HUGE dilthium costs for little gain in Starbases, basically shafting small fleets in favour of larger ones.

- Dilthium cap of 8k PER DAY - Meaning that you can get nothing useful.

- Reputation system and a total of 4 STF's (Which have been split into ground and space, used to be just one and have a story but have now turned into a heartless grind) whereas ToR has many more Flashpoints.

- Grind, Grind, Grind...

 

True THAT for Advertisement vs Truth... You think Bioware is bad!? You have no idea mate.

 

-

 

I'd like to correct something here, I'm a long time STO player, and fairly recently returned to ToR to try it again, I'm playing both games to an extent.

 

A lot of your criticisms of STO are fair, but largely have to do with the game itself, and as such I'm not going to spend a lot of time argueing with or correcting you, other than to say your a bit off about how a few things turn out in the endgame. At the end of the day though STO has one of the best FTP models out there as pretty much everything in the game can be obtained simply by playing a lot. Any of the ships or whatever are within reach if

you want to work towards them as a long term goal. Granted someone who puts money into the game, and it IS a business (don't forget that) is going to be able to get more things, faster, and will genrally have more options accross an array of characters, but doesn't actually get anything that a non-paying player simply cannot have. Things like the "Dil per day" refinement cap exist to prevent the dil market from getting totally inflated, and making Zen (paid points) totally unobtainable to those who aren't playing as a lifestyle. Likewise it's pretty obvious that the devs themselves put Zen on the market to control the price (preventing it from going above a certain point) and ensure people can obtain Zen for play time. Of course the "trap" of this is that if your playing tons your going to want more and more stuff, and of course that makes it more likely that people will spend real money. Not to mention Cryptic/PWI making it clear that the amount of money spent influances new content creation, which while relativelyh slow, has been happening. Understand that STO was pretty much dead until it re-launched FTP where it rapidly became a blockbuster success with it's philsophy, becoming a bigger game despite it's near death than Cryptic's previous success "City Of Heroes/Villains" was in it's prime, and it's apparently currently PWI's #1 cash maker which surprised them allegedly since they bought STO largely to experiment with on the US market.

 

Is the STO system perfect? Well no, no it's not. I do however believe it's the best FTP system out there.

 

I'll also say that "Pay To Win" is a debatable concept. To be honest one thing that I like about the STO system is that all of the content can be done with just the basic stuff that you can get without any kind of paid points, dil, etc... The "special" ships provide a definate advantage, but are hardly nessicary to any of the content, and what's more anyone who wants one can have one. In the final equasion if the game isn't worth putting a couple of months into, in order to get a ship, why do you want the ship, which is hardly nessicary, anyway? In an absolute sense whether you pay money into the game or remain entirely free, this system ensures everyone always has something to be working towards as there is always another upgrade they can be working on.

 

I'll also be blunt in saying that if I'm going to put money into a game, I like my reward to be useful. Things like purely cosmetic or pointless items generally do not seem like the investment in cash, but something that actually DOES something gives me another toy to play with, and will keep me playing longer.

 

When it comes to the specifics of STO though, to be honest with you, I do tend to agree that the core game has become unbalanced towards DPS. I won't get into PVP because honestly I've never seen MMO PVP that isn't a mess... ToR's is a nighmare (which I won't argue about) itself. If I want serious PVP I'm going to look more towards a MOBA which specializes in it, since any game with a PVE/raid/dungeon component where PVP is something else you do as opposed to the 100% focus is by definition not going to be able to remain balanced in all of those areas.

 

As far as the ToR monetary system goes, I don't care for it to be honest. My big problem with it is that even if you put a ton of money into ToR for unlocks you still wind up getting treated like a second class citizen. I made the mistake of paying a goodly chunk of money trying to basically buy something equivilent to a lifetime subscription to this game before realizing that there is simply no way to remove things like an ambient exps penelty, or raise or remove the credit cap, or get around being locked out of the endgame (flashpoints, PVP, ops, etc...) without

buying passes. Even just running around solo you wind up getting insulted by the game periodically wth quest rewards crossing out possible reward selections "not for you, FTP plebe". I wound up biting the bullet and getting a subscription card for the moment, but honestly I feel like I was kind of robbed paying for unlocks... which I admit is my fault for not looking at it TOO closely and simply making guesses based on what was in the store as opposed to outside of the game.

 

In short ToR is so greedy that after getting enough money from my poor pathetic hide to warrent a lifetime subscription to any other MMO, I wound up having to pretty much get a subscription anyway to do what I want and can pretty much write off a nice chunk of savings as lost. I should have guessed it wasn't possible to do, since they aren't just outright selling a lifetime subscription as far as I could see anywhere.

 

For those who read this far and aren't about to chew me out, (unlikely as that is) I'll just say I'm less concerned about whether they add the customization stuff into the cash shop or give it to subscribers (which I am one now), as I would like to see them sell oh, permanant account wide passes for operations and such, or credit limit cap removal or whatever else. Heck, I'd just be happy if they set it up so next time I start a new character as a FTP I didn't have to have quests appear and remind me via rewards being crossed out that despite having paid a ton of cash I am still a second class citizen..... want a credit box? Well you can't have one! hahaha, you have to go kill anotther 48 thugs to afford training, you can however have this valueless pair of socks that aren't an upgrade, just because we think it's funny.

[TarristerWelm]

So as a player that has been here since beta, and was a bit indifferent to the whole Cathar thing, I will not have access to All character creation choices? Well as much as I enjoy the game I feel that using this approach the devs can cut more benefits to us subs till we just have to buy CM items to say in league with the F2P crowd. If we keep getting less benefits for INVESTING in this game, then I guess they would rather have F2P than any subs. This is a slippery slope you guys are going down, cut one benefit sooner or later you will cut more.

 

 

This is what I'm worried about as well.

[branmakmuffin]

So as a player that has been here since beta, and was a bit indifferent to the whole Cathar thing, I will not have access to All character creation choices? Well as much as I enjoy the game I feel that using this approach the devs can cut more benefits to us subs till we just have to buy CM items to say in league with the F2P crowd. If we keep getting less benefits for INVESTING in this game, then I guess they would rather have F2P than any subs. This is a slippery slope you guys are going down, cut one benefit sooner or later you will cut more.

Then stop investing. Go Preferred if you think it's such a better deal.

 

How do you get that they are free? I pay 15 dollars a month for 500 coins? if i spent my monthly fee on $15worth of cc a month i would instead have 1500cc which is 3 times the amount i would receive. So actually i am over paying for points now

He's been singing that song for days. For whatever reason, it's vital him that the CC included with a sub be regarded as "free." He also ends all his sentences with double punctuation marks. The reason for this will forever remain a mystery, as well.

 

If you really thought you were overpaying for the CC, you would stop subbing. You know as well as I it includes a lot more than just ~500 CC.

Edited May 9, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[uaintjak]

The Cathar don't concern me. I might purchase them reluctantly (because I will probably never play one but I do like to have the option available.) However, I feel that 600 coins is a fair price, and yes, it will be using some of my "I_DO _NOT_CONSIDER_THEM_FREE_COINS BECAUSE_I_PAID_FOR_THEM" coins, well, that's why I pay for them, after all.

 

But the barbershop? That just seems...petty.