Subscription: Advertisement vs Truth

[VanTesla]

I have had it with the false promises and lack of subscriber respect of EA/bioware... More than twenty friends of mine in game have left for the lack of bug fixes, player content, customer support, and the more recent focus on zero subscriber content and bug fixes for more cartel/cash grab junk that should been free for subscribers in some form or earned through events. I have been in game since beta and have stayed through the good and the bad, but I have had enough and will not be resubscribing or coming back after all this disrespect and lack of future game investment instead they focus on short term cash grabs...

 

EA/bioware know this game is dead so they focus on milking it before putting it down instead of actually trying to revive it and focus on longterm success... I will not be constantly lied to and just deal with it being ok to just nickle and dime everything that was promised and should be ingame for free that is also free in almost every other MMORPG.

 

The excuse that we get monthly cartel coins that can go to these things is just a poorly made defense to milk something that was promised to be free for subscribers anytime they wish to use and not have to waste cartel coins on something that was promised to us... Also the lack of fixing the game and that most patchs make the game worse is beyond the worse of see in any mmorpg I have ever played and it is not like you are even trying...

[LordArtemis]

They once indicated, quite passionately if I remember, that there would never be cross class armor use or an appearance system since it would violate the intent that each class should have an easily recognizable look. They also indicated they would NOT be converting to F2P any time in the near future.

 

Thankfully they changed their minds, abet a bit late for my taste, but changed for the better none the less.

 

Personally I do not have issue with the features showing up in the market. It is probably wise, however, for them to change any incorrect advertising if it exists, as that would be simple bad form.

Edited April 27, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

So from what we've heard of the new 2.1 update it seems as both the new race, Cathar and the new customization options are being put into the cartel market. As such I'd like to draw attention to a page that Bioware themselves used as commercial for subscribing.

 

Customisation does not appear on that list.

 

Ofc its false advertisement, both their F2P vs Sub page and their video review stated that subscribers have full access to all features. That is obviously no longer the case.

 

No its not false advertising in any way whatsoever until 2.1 arrives. After that it might be unless they don't update it.

 

A new race in SWTOR is not new content its cosmetic. The only thing that changes is character appearance.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Arlbo_Nabbins

[Sultrus]

I have had it with the false promises and lack of subscriber respect of EA/bioware... More than twenty friends of mine in game have left for the lack of bug fixes, player content, customer support, and the more recent focus on zero subscriber content and bug fixes for more cartel/cash grab junk that should been free for subscribers in some form or earned through events. I have been in game since beta and have stayed through the good and the bad, but I have had enough and will not be resubscribing or coming back after all this disrespect and lack of future game investment instead they focus on short term cash grabs...

 

EA/bioware know this game is dead so they focus on milking it before putting it down instead of actually trying to revive it and focus on longterm success... I will not be constantly lied to and just deal with it being ok to just nickle and dime everything that was promised and should be ingame for free that is also free in almost every other MMORPG.

 

The excuse that we get monthly cartel coins that can go to these things is just a poorly made defense to milk something that was promised to be free for subscribers anytime they wish to use and not have to waste cartel coins on something that was promised to us... Also the lack of fixing the game and that most patchs make the game worse is beyond the worse of see in any mmorpg I have ever played and it is not like you are even trying...

 

Funny, apply that and just replace Bioware with the word "Cryptic" and it completely applies.

[LordArtemis]

By the way...I also think any long term success plan included free to play and a market, casual content galor from the get go.

 

This game was not Star Wars Galaxies as was indicated quite passionately by the community, and indirectly as well by the development staff. Perhaps not, but it did have to measure up to the level of casual content that that game had before it was shut down if they expected any kind of long term success.

 

Thankfully attrition eventually forced their hand. It's too bad they chose to stand firm to some of the silly choices they made prior to launch despite resounding feedback from testers, but better late then never.

 

F2P and the Market were always part of SWTOR's long term success. They just simply could not see that at launch. But you can bet they learned that lesson the hard way, and it is one lesson they will likely never forget.

[VanTesla]

Subscribers get a monthly grant of cartel coins and we were told MONTHS in advanced Cathar would be on the cartel market. If you as a subscriber feel ripped off by Bioware then it is YOUR fault for not researching. You will have to wait one month to get them for free.

 

This is a poor defense for features that almost every MMORPG have for free... Also the monthly cartel coins wouldn't be a thing if it was not for the game failing EA/bioware expectations or atleast not to the state of everything being cartel only now... We don't even get much a month even if say you make 700 cartel coins each months for the cost to get anything a subscriber may actually desire since the pack are horribly random or gear is overpriced. They intentionaly take ingame gear out that was once accessible and add more cartel items instead.

 

Most of the recent quality of life content has almost all been cartel only and nothing for subscribers ingame...

[VanTesla]

Cathar wasn't ready to be released with Makeb and the rest of the HC content, else they would have done so.

 

They had a trailer teasing the cathar, hk 51, and 55 cap all together a year ago... Maybe if they thought things through before announcing stuff or making false promises, people would not have the right to be angry then...

[LordArtemis]

This is a poor defense for features that almost every MMORPG have for free... Also the monthly cartel coins wouldn't be a thing if it was not for the game failing EA/bioware expectations or atleast not to the state of everything being cartel only now... We don't even get much a month even if say you make 700 cartel coins each months for the cost to get anything a subscriber may actually desire since the pack are horribly random or gear is overpriced. They intentionaly take ingame gear out that was once accessible and add more cartel items instead.

 

Most of the recent quality of life content has almost all been cartel only and nothing for subscribers ingame...

 

A fair point, but when comparing the game and what it offers to other games on the market I think the companion play and extended voiced mission sets counter that loss of value in standard game features. Not by much IMO mind you, and they still have quite a ways to go with respect to providing casual content (achievements went a long way toward this, and actually the system generates coins in limited form instead of costing them), but overall the value and balance ration compared to other games has improved.

 

We will see what the future holds.

[VanTesla]

Funny, apply that and just replace Bioware with the word "Cryptic" and it completely applies.

 

Cryptic has some great idea, but is cursed with bad game developers and marketing... That can be applied to almost every failed MMO though...

[Infernixx]

They had a trailer teasing the cathar, hk 51, and 55 cap all together a year ago... Maybe if they thought things through before announcing stuff or making false promises, people would not have the right to be angry then...

 

People were going to be angry and rage no matter what they do. I suspect that they've given up even trying to even pretend to give a damn what the perpetually pouty players on these forums think.

 

They could give Cathar away for free to subs and F2Pers alike and within a day, someone would be on these boards complaining about how LONG it took them to get Cathar out.

 

Oh wait, you're already complaining about that, aren't you?

 

Damned if they do, damned if they don't. So, why should they care if you get pissed? You're still paying them.

[LordArtemis]

People were going to be angry and rage no matter what they do. I suspect that they've given up even trying to even pretend to give a damn what the perpetually pouty players on these forums think.

 

They could give Cathar away for free to subs and F2Pers alike and within a day, someone would be on these boards complaining about how LONG it took them to get Cathar out.

 

Oh wait, you're already complaining about that, aren't you?

 

Damned if they do, damned if they don't. So, why should they care if you get pissed? You're still paying them.

 

Yes, but by the same token Bioware was far too dismissive early on and payed the price for that arrogance.

 

Perhaps not all feedback is wise to follow, but it seems that the community really did know what they game needed all the way back before launch, and Bioware ignored it at their peril.

[VanTesla]

A fair point, but when comparing the game and what it offers to other games on the market I think the companion play and extended voiced mission sets counter that loss of value in standard game features. Not by much IMO mind you, and they still have quite a ways to go with respect to providing casual content (achievements went a long way toward this, and actually the system generates coins in limited form instead of costing them), but overall the value and balance ration compared to other games has improved.

 

We will see what the future holds.

 

Here is the problem though. The game has been buggy since launch and in many areas has become worse overtime, many patchs actually cause more problems than fix, the achievement system does not even work properly in that it does not at time count any of your completions of past or present, they have had almost 2 years of live game time to fix these problems or better adress them yet have not shown much in any aspect, and the recent updates have mostly been cartel focused with little subscriber/veteran focus ingame content. You can't defend a game that has done little in fixing it's major issues this long in...

[Infernixx]

Yes, but by the same token Bioware was far too dismissive early on and payed the price for that arrogance.

 

Perhaps not all feedback is wise to follow, but it seems that the community really did know what they game needed all the way back before launch, and Bioware ignored it at their peril.

 

That's a far too simplistic summation. This game was plagued from launch by the desire to try and do 'everything' before they were ready. To make it worse, they had some pretty bad bugs that persisted for months and made everyone angry.

 

It wasn't a matter of 'ignoring the community', it was a matter of 'priorities'. But, the community has shown itself to be fickle and impatient and when things didn't get fixed in a hurry, they abandoned the game in droves. This only compounded the problem by denying them a stable revenue stream with which to fix the problems that remained.

 

Only by going F2P and introducing the CM did they get that revenue stream back and since then, the game has steadily, remarkably, improved.

 

What they learned was that the subbed community will abandon ship at a whim or in a fit of pique, while the CM provides steady income with minimal resources expended. Personally, if I were them, this is exactly how I would continue to run things, with an emphasis on the things that bring in the cash and not much thought or concern put into a small crowd of players who threaten to quit at the drop of a hat.

[VanTesla]

People were going to be angry and rage no matter what they do. I suspect that they've given up even trying to even pretend to give a damn what the perpetually pouty players on these forums think.

 

They could give Cathar away for free to subs and F2Pers alike and within a day, someone would be on these boards complaining about how LONG it took them to get Cathar out.

 

Oh wait, you're already complaining about that, aren't you?

 

Damned if they do, damned if they don't. So, why should they care if you get pissed? You're still paying them.

 

I have held my tongue on issues of the game and only gave some feedback on bugs and ingame problems here and there since beta. I have blindly supported this game since the start even after all my friends let to one MMO or another and I have zero justification or reason to keep playing a game that has no respect for longtime players and or fix the issues that have been here since launch. Don't judge me as if I am acting childishly or have no right in saying that this game has done nothing to fix the many legitimate complaints this game has...

[VanTesla]

That's a far too simplistic summation. This game was plagued from launch by the desire to try and do 'everything' before they were ready. To make it worse, they had some pretty bad bugs that persisted for months and made everyone angry.

 

It wasn't a matter of 'ignoring the community', it was a matter of 'priorities'. But, the community has shown itself to be fickle and impatient and when things didn't get fixed in a hurry, they abandoned the game in droves. This only compounded the problem by denying them a stable revenue stream with which to fix the problems that remained.

 

Only by going F2P and introducing the CM did they get that revenue stream back and since then, the game has steadily, remarkably, improved.

 

What they learned was that the subbed community will abandon ship at a whim or in a fit of pique, while the CM provides steady income with minimal resources expended. Personally, if I were them, this is exactly how I would continue to run things, with an emphasis on the things that bring in the cash and not much thought or concern put into a small crowd of players who threaten to quit at the drop of a hat.

 

Here is the problem with that idea. It is a short term cash gain instead of longterm gain through investing in community and the subscriber base. If they actually used some of the new revenue to fix the broken game thus making it more enjoyable for even the average joe to play they could increase that revenue even more if you put the thought into it. The people that keep a game lasting for a longtime are the veteran players that subscribe and do everything in the game and support it when it is up or down. Without us the game will just be like if it was run by Zynga and we see where they have been going financially.

 

Longterm investments have almost always beat short term cash grabs if the company knew how to actually handle things.

[BurnedRemains]

I'mma jus go ahead an dismantle every single non-point argument in this thread starting with this one.

 

Just a reminder.. We as subscibers have always had to purchase additional races that we didn't have.. What is the issue here?? You either had to level one to 50, or buy it.. This one is just to purchase on the CM.. So what?? 600CC big deal..

 

That is just plain wrong. We never had to pay for races beyond the legacy unlock if you chose that route, and even then it was in game credits.

 

You get a monthly allotment of Cartel Coins.. Forgetting about that?? How exactly are you paying extra for anything??

 

This is an outlandishly ludicrous expectation. Almost no one saves their CC for these updates, and they should not have to as we are subs for a reason.

 

I fail to see the issue there.. You could once by bank tabs with credits.. Now you can buy them with CC.. What is the difference??

 

The difference is that I can still buy bank tabs with in game credits and have the additional option to do so with CC. This is not the case with the Space Thundercats.

 

But see.. The grant is also what makes it free for subscribers.. So his argument still fails on that front..

 

No it is not free. I have to pay $15 dollars for a sub to even get it.

 

So you are claiming that a subscriber should get anything in the Cartel Market for free?? Seriously??

 

No he is not. Being that the "Barber shop" is a new FEATURE though, he is correct in his statement.

 

Look here, read what I posted and the link. "Full access to all Character Creation options.".

 

Therein lies your problem. It says character creation not character recreation. However, if the new items to the barber shop are not allowed to be acquired for free via making a whole new char then yes, that would be false advertising.

 

Sorry.. But that is irrelevant.. Why does that matter?? Again, subscribers get a monthly grant.. So the Cartel Market is covered..

 

Again you are making a fallacious argument in that you assume every subscriber gets the same CC allotment each and every month. That is wrong making the point you tried to make, erroneous.

 

All in all this is an exceptionally slippery slope and I feel that BW is just testing the waters to see how much they can get away with before we bite. Saying things like "oh but you can just use the monthly CC grant for them," will escalate eventually to "oh you can use the monthly CC grant for X after 2 months." That's not cool with me and if that is how much my sub is valued I'm gonna have to bone on outta this money lynching festival.

[VanTesla]

By the way...I also think any long term success plan included free to play and a market, casual content galor from the get go.

 

This game was not Star Wars Galaxies as was indicated quite passionately by the community, and indirectly as well by the development staff. Perhaps not, but it did have to measure up to the level of casual content that that game had before it was shut down if they expected any kind of long term success.

 

Thankfully attrition eventually forced their hand. It's too bad they chose to stand firm to some of the silly choices they made prior to launch despite resounding feedback from testers, but better late then never.

 

F2P and the Market were always part of SWTOR's long term success. They just simply could not see that at launch. But you can bet they learned that lesson the hard way, and it is one lesson they will likely never forget.

 

If f2p was on the longterm plan from the get go, then they would not have brought it in so poorly as they did and would have better took pages from other free to play hybred models. EA was expecting this to be a WOW kiler or in numbers thus f2p was not even in the equation or as a back up plan till after launch...

[VanTesla]

I'mma jus go ahead an dismantle every single non-point argument in this thread starting with this one.

 

 

 

That is just plain wrong. We never had to pay for races beyond the legacy unlock if you chose that route, and even then it was in game credits.

 

 

 

This is an outlandishly ludicrous expectation. Almost no one saves their CC for these updates, and they should not have to as we are subs for a reason.

 

 

 

The difference is that I can still buy bank tabs with in game credits and have the additional option to do so with CC. This is not the case with the Space Thundercats.

 

 

 

No it is not free. I have to pay $15 dollars for a sub to even get it.

 

 

 

No he is not. Being that the "Barber shop" is a new FEATURE though, he is correct in his statement.

 

 

 

Therein lies your problem. It says character creation not character recreation. However, if the new items to the barber shop are not allowed to be acquired for free via making a whole new char then yes, that would be false advertising.

 

 

 

Again you are making a fallacious argument in that you assume every subscriber gets the same CC allotment each and every month. That is wrong making the point you tried to make, erroneous.

 

All in all this is an exceptionally slippery slope and I feel that BW is just testing the waters to see how much they can get away with before we bite. Saying things like "oh but you can just use the monthly CC grant for them," will escalate eventually to "oh you can use the monthly CC grant for X after 2 months." That's not cool with me and if that is how much my sub is valued I'm gonna have to bone on outta this money lynching festival.

 

I agree with you on this sad defense people are trying to make for EA/bioware nickel and diming everything in this game. It's like many gamers have stockholm syndrome on here... I have just had it with the game and will not be resubscribing.

[LordArtemis]

I do feel the prices in the market are a bit high for some items, especially armor. I personally would have made all market armor level 1, had no mods installed, and instead sold the mods in packs separately. I think it would foster much greater sales if the prices were a bit lower for armor overall, and if they added some helmets to the mix...not to mention more weapons.

 

It seems that some prices for armor are dropping. This should happen to all armor IMO.

[LordArtemis]

If f2p was on the longterm plan from the get go, then they would not have brought it in so poorly as they did and would have better took pages from other free to play hybred models. EA was expecting this to be a WOW kiler or in numbers thus f2p was not even in the equation or as a back up plan till after launch...

 

Yes, but it seems you missed my point. My point was that the game needed to be F2P and have a market before launch to be successful. The way the game was designed caused it to have little to no hope of any sustainability in the market...so it needed both systems to survive.

 

They were both added much later after massive subscription losses, losses that could have been avoided had they either completed the game prior to launch (perhaps not possible) or simply launched with F2P and the market in place.

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

This is an outlandishly ludicrous expectation. Almost no one saves their CC for these updates, and they should not have to as we are subs for a reason.

 

I do, I keep myself at around 2k CC at all times in case something is added that I really want to get quickly.

[XuShaBi]

Since the legacy achievement update, you can earn CC through in-game content. So technically you can still use in-game content to help unlocking the Cathar. The principle hasn't changed but the method has. So again people are raging over a straw-man issue to ram against CM existence.

[VanTesla]

Yes, but it seems you missed my point. My point was that the game needed to be F2P and have a market before launch to be successful. The way the game was designed caused it to have little to no hope of any sustainability in the market...so it needed both systems to survive.

 

They were both added much later after massive subscription losses, losses that could have been avoided had they either completed the game prior to launch (perhaps not possible) or simply launched with F2P and the market in place.

 

My apologies for not reading your post all the way through. I have been venting a bit so I have not been clearly paying attention as closely as I should be to post and acted out without looking ahead. I just wanted this game to succeed and truly believed it had potential to do so, but bad decisions nd poor choices made by EA/bioware have completely ruined it.

[aVmuse]

ITT: the very people who the nickle and dimed market EA now cater for.

 

Good on ya guys! Can't wait for the next content pack that we're gonna have to pay for with our free CC allotment. They should just say your allotment is for content, so we can actually get what we pay for eventually. TY nickle and dime people ty.

Edited April 28, 2013 by aVmuse

[Thaed]

I fail to see the issue there.. You could once by bank tabs with credits.. Now you can buy them with CC.. What is the difference??

 

There are a ton of things that you could once buy with credits that you can now buy with CC.. So they want to put the Cathar on the CM.. So what?? What difference does it make?? It isn't false advertisement...

 

You need to explain why a subscriber is entitled to a species for free, when we never were able to get one for free before.. You either had to buy the unlock or level to 50.. In either case it wasn't free..

 

The difference with bank tabs is that you can pay with credits or CCs. This may also be the case with Cathar, via the GTN, but the appearance vendors are said to be CC only.