Surprising finds with Jugg/Guardian DPS

[Helmholtzz]

Well you can thank NathanielStarr and Riggz for that. As for the bolded, you must not know many people I take it. There are plenty of good guardian/jugg dps on this server, pvp and pve.

 

Well I have never played an imp toon. Can't for some weird reason I tried playing a power tech, gave up at level 13. So there might be good Jugg DPS but I didnt have exposure, ergo my curiosity. I am not curious about Sentinels. I have 3 of the best sentinels from the server in our raid groups.

 

Anyway, DoA has 1 'good'* guardian. I haven't seen any other guardians (in DPS role of course) in other republic progression groups that have actually cleared 'hard' content.

 

When people talk about sustained dps they normally mean PvE because in PvP fights dont last that long for sustained dps to become important (imo). So I am talking about PvE only.

 

'good' - I did not mean good enough to pull enough DPS to clear content. The DPS requirements posted by the enrage timer is not anywhere closer to the full potential of most of the DPS class. We have done some testing with Sentinels and Commandos to see how much change we can see in DPS if certain heavy hitting attacks are taken off the rotation (Demolition round, Master strike) and our findings are very surprising. I will not get into that here because I dont think anyone cares.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Helmholtzz

[PoliteAssasin]

Well I have never played an imp toon. Can't for some weird reason I tried playing a power tech, gave up at level 13. So there might be good Jugg DPS but I didnt have exposure, ergo my curiosity. I am not curious about Sentinels. I have 3 of the best sentinels from the server in our raid groups.

 

Anyway, DoA has 1 'good'* guardian. I haven't seen any other guardians (in DPS role of course) in other republic progression groups that have actually cleared 'hard' content.

 

When people talk about sustained dps they normally mean PvE because in PvP fights dont last that long for sustained dps to become important (imo). So I am talking about PvE only.

 

'good' - (I did not mean good enough to pull enough DPS to clear content. There is a huge difference between the DPS requirement to clear contents and what a class can actually pull if played at max skill)

 

Oh nice, Youngster and Kaos came back?

 

I don't think its fair to single out PVPers as if they don't do PVE as well. Some like to do both, and some excel really well at both.

 

I'm fully aware of what sustained dps is Baree, thats besides the point.

 

As far as your definition of good, you have to remember that with the significant changes to crit/surge specs that do not have a built in autocrit have to find a new sweet spot to maximize their potential damage. Juggernauts/Guardians have only one autocrit spec, while Sentinels/Marauders have 2. But that doesn't mean specs like Vengeance or Combat aren't good enough. People need time to theory craft with the new changes to see what works best in 2.0

 

Now if your question is whats better at dps, a guardian or sentinel, then it would be sentinel watchman spec simply because of the dots.

[Helmholtzz]

Oh nice, Youngster and Kaos came back?

 

Haven't seen Youngster for a while and Kaos comes back from time to time.

 

I don't think its fair to single out PVPers as if they don't do PVE as well. Some like to do both, and some excel really well at both.

 

By PvE I meant serious progression raiding. I went with my guild on a SM S&V on my shadow as a DPS.... I had full tank gear on I would never claim I cleared S&V as a Shadow DPS. Sure a lot of people do both PvP and PvE and are very successful in both. I was pointing out that I didnt see any Guardian DPS in any of the republic progression raid groups. Do you know anyone? Please mention his/her name, I have a few questions for him/her.

 

I'm fully aware of what sustained dps is Baree, thats besides the point.

 

I thought that was the central point of the thread. Quoting original poster here

Ever since the game launched, Marauders/Sentinels have always been the choice for melee DPS slots. Most people looked at Juggernauts/Guardians and scoffed and said "Lolno, go be a tank"...

So, Juggernauts/Guardians are no longer "only a tank" and can now compete with Marauders/Sentinels for melee DPS for raiding.

 

As far as your definition of good, you have to remember that with the significant changes to crit/surge specs that do not have a built in autocrit have to find a new sweet spot to maximize their potential damage. Juggernauts/Guardians have only one autocrit spec, while Sentinels/Marauders have 2. But that doesn't mean specs like Vengeance or Combat aren't good enough. People need time to theory craft with the new changes to see what works best in 2.0

 

Now if your question is whats better at dps, a guardian or sentinel, then it would be sentinel watchman spec simply because of the dots.

 

And that is exactly what I am curious about. I understand there has to be lot of theory crafting and that is the exciting part. We wont get the best dps on the first week of a new patch. Hell with bioware putting all the good mods in unassembled gears its going to take a long time before a toon is fully min maxed. But that does not mean we cant look at parses and take it with a grain of salt.

Bottom line is Sentinels are better DPS class than guardians. Important question is: Is that gap significant enough?

Edited May 4, 2013 by Helmholtzz

[PoliteAssasin]

Haven't seen Youngster for a while and Kaos comes back from time to time.

 

 

 

By PvE I meant serious progression raiding. I went with my guild on a SM S&V on my shadow as a DPS.... I had full tank gear on I would never claim I cleared S&V as a Shadow DPS. Sure a lot of people do both PvP and PvE and are very successful in both. I was pointing out that I didnt see any Guardian DPS in any of the republic progression raid groups. Do you know anyone? Please mention his/her name, I have a few questions for him/her.

 

 

 

I thought that was the central point of the thread. Quoting original poster here

 

 

 

 

And that is exactly what I am curious about. I understand there has to be lot of theory crafting and that is the exciting part. We wont get the best dps on the first week of a new patch. Hell with bioware putting all the good mods in unassembled gears its going to take a long time before a toon is fully min maxed. But that does not mean we cant look at parses and take it with a grain of salt.

Bottom line is Sentinels are better DPS class than guardians. Important question is: Is that gap significant enough?

 

Wait, then who were the top DoA sentinels you were referring to then?

 

Besides the point meaning its irrelevant whether or not someone PVPs in addition to PVEs, I was not referring to sustained damage. You claimed there was only one good guardian dps and I'm saying theres more. I would also add that I'm not aware of what warzones you participate in, but sustained damage is just as important as burst damage when it comes to pvp. If you know your priorities/rotation as a dps, I don't see how you can have burst without the sustained, for those specs that are capable of burst. That goes for both pvp and pve. Combat's bladerush for example, or rage's vicious slash which are used in between the burst setup. Vengeance was always a bursty spec, but it also has good sustained damage.

 

Sentinels are better than guardians dps wise, but the gap isn't that wide. What tips the choice more in the sentinels favor is the group buffs.

[Riggz]

Haha I forgot about alot of those threads I made, stay tuned because ill make more. I'm not trying to Hide anything yes if I think something needs attention ill make a thread about it. Most of my threads are about mercs because I have alot of merc friends in game and want to see them viable in warzones. Reason one of my threads was about the merc nerf not being bad is I didn't have a 50 merc at the time. Anyway all you have proved is you have the time to dig through my old threads even If some of them were almost a year old.

 

 

 

/golfclap

[Helmholtzz]

Its amazing how you twist my words around. I never said there was 1 good guardian dps. I said 'I knew 1 good guardian dps' and 'DoA has 1 good guardian dps'. None of the 2 statements indicate that there is only 1 good guardian dps. I don't know everyone on the server. Specially when I play only one faction. And I wanted to know the name of 1 guardian dps who is in progression raid groups except the one from DoA. Still waiting for that name.

 

Check out the bold part of the quote of the original poster. Quoting again, '... compete with Marauders/Sentinels for melee DPS for raiding.' He is wondering whether guardians can compete with Sentinels for raid spot. I dont understand why are you bringing PvP in this discussion. Whether the class is good PvP dps is irrelevant. PvP is not only about dishing out damage. It is also about staying alive. That is why glass cannon classes struggle against good PvP teams. Check out the operations boss dps list in Torparse and see how gunslingers are doing.

 

Just a few points for your consideration. There are more factors that make PvP dpsing a whole different ball game than PvE dpsing.

1. AoE plays a major role in PvP while in PvE its single target damage.
   
2. You have to maintain energy for the whole fight. You don't get the chance to recharge between fights or die and come back with full ammo.
   
3. There is minimal switching of targets which means specs with long dots can get full utilization of their dots
   

 

And to find the best DoA PvE sentinel, go to Torparse and look at the dps list on different operation boss and see who the first sentinel you see from Begeren Colony.

 

I will give a calculation here of a situation where a guardian might be better than a sentinel in a raid:

Say you have 4 sentinels all doing 2700 dps and a guardian doing 2500. So if you take 4 sentinels you get 10800 dps. Now if you take the guardian the 20% armor debuff gives your sentinel a 6% damage boost (roughly).

So sentinel damage is boosted from 8100 to 8586. So you get a total of 11086 which is 286 dps gain over the 4 sentinel group.

Now if you have the option of taking either a guardian or a commando or a gunslinger, the guardian looses the race because both commando and gunslingers have the same armor debuff and they pull more damage than the guardian.

But the number 2700 and 2500 are speculations. I have seen sentinels pull 2890. I haven't seen any guardian parses yet. But if the gap is more than 400 then it's very unlikely that a guardian can take the spot of a sentinel. So it all depends on the what the gap between a well played guardian and a well played Sentinel is.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Helmholtzz

[MelliMelon]

I was pointing out that I didnt see any Guardian DPS in any of the republic progression raid groups. Do you know anyone? Please mention his/her name, I have a few questions for him/her.

 

In my progression group (server first NiM EC), we have a guardian DPS, Tomap. He is quite good. He is very busy with RL right now, but you can try to get a hold of him by sending a mail. (AFAIK he hasn't done much post 2.0 calculations/work though).

[Helmholtzz]

Thanks Melyn. I will try to contact him and figure out when he can spare some time to talk about guardian dps.

[PoliteAssasin]

You're one to talk about twisting words when that's all you've done with my comments. I don't know why you keep bringing this back to pvp, but whatever man. I tried to help you but its becoming apparent that all you're trying to do is say "OMG we have the best guardian dps in our guild and no one else can do good with the class, and he can't so what sentinels do". You asked a question, then you answered it yourself. I know who you're talking about too, Reshi and I can tell you he's far from the top. But Ill let you get on with your boasting, "Socrates".

 

 

Haha I forgot about alot of those threads I made, stay tuned because ill make more. I'm not trying to Hide anything yes if I think something needs attention ill make a thread about it. Most of my threads are about mercs because I have alot of merc friends in game and want to see them viable in warzones. Reason one of my threads was about the merc nerf not being bad is I didn't have a 50 merc at the time. Anyway all you have proved is you have the time to dig through my old threads even If some of them were almost a year old.

 

 

 

/golfclap

 

Dig up? Do you know how simple the search function is? Didn't take longer than 5 seconds to pull those up. I find it to be interesting that you complain about every class you play. What's the common factor? /golfclap indeed.

Edited May 5, 2013 by PoliteAssasin

[Helmholtzz]

LoL... I got what I wanted to know from Melyn so I'll talk with Tomap. I knew I wasn't gonna get any concrete information from you anyway.

For the people who actually reads other people's post:

I write:

... I knew 1 good guardian dps' and 'DoA has 1 good guardian dps'...

The chosen one reads

..."OMG we have the best guardian dps in our guild ...

and also says:

You're one to talk about twisting words ...

Subtle eh?!

 

Oh mighty chosen one I bow out of this thread with the amazing amount of information you have provided me .

[PoliteAssasin]

You're only providing one of your posts for your propaganda baree. If your efforts weren't so thinly veiled maybe you would have been able to fool me too. But you go ahead with your numbers and parses. Its gonna take you places I'm sure.

[PoliteAssasin]

I only know one good guardian DPS and he does not care about forums.

 

But given the option of making a choice between a sentinel and a guardian (equally skilled of course) would a raid leader take the guardian over the sentinel?

 

 

I have 3 of the best sentinels from the server in our raid groups.

 

Anyway, DoA has 1 'good'* guardian. I haven't seen any other guardians (in DPS role of course) in other republic progression groups that have actually cleared 'hard' content.

 

 

And that is exactly what I am curious about. I understand there has to be lot of theory crafting and that is the exciting part. We wont get the best dps on the first week of a new patch. Hell with bioware putting all the good mods in unassembled gears its going to take a long time before a toon is fully min maxed. But that does not mean we cant look at parses and take it with a grain of salt.

Bottom line is Sentinels are better DPS class than guardians. Important question is: Is that gap significant enough?

 

 

I will give a calculation here of a situation where a guardian might be better than a sentinel in a raid:

Say you have 4 sentinels all doing 2700 dps and a guardian doing 2500. So if you take 4 sentinels you get 10800 dps. Now if you take the guardian the 20% armor debuff gives your sentinel a 6% damage boost (roughly).

So sentinel damage is boosted from 8100 to 8586. So you get a total of 11086 which is 286 dps gain over the 4 sentinel group.

Now if you have the option of taking either a guardian or a commando or a gunslinger, the guardian looses the race because both commando and gunslingers have the same armor debuff and they pull more damage than the guardian.

But the number 2700 and 2500 are speculations. I have seen sentinels pull 2890. I haven't seen any guardian parses yet. But if the gap is more than 400 then it's very unlikely that a guardian can take the spot of a sentinel. So it all depends on the what the gap between a well played guardian and a well played Sentinel is.

 

Sigh... for someone who calls themselves Socrates.. And you should know that a parse is no more indicative of class skill and knowledge than a scoreboard at the end of a pvp match. But for the sake of argument, you have the 3 best sentinels and best guardian in DoA, why don't you ask them? Why come here with questions, and then answer your own question a few posts later? Other than to parade yourself around here? Attention seekers these days. 2/10 for your efforts. Surely you can do better, "Socrates".

Edited May 5, 2013 by PoliteAssasin