Serious Undercutting In GTN in 2.0

[RaziaA]

Given the exceptionally high prices of even the green mats 400-450, I cannot believe the undercutting I'm seeing in the GTN. People must be selling at a loss when you're selling LVL 53 purples mods for 80K. Dunno. Hope this is a fad that will pass. Just days ago, things were fine. I really think 2.0 was the final nail in the coffin for crafters.

[psandak]

Are you just looking at the first page of GTM items? Because if you are, you are not seeing the full picture. There are a lot a bargains for materials if you look deeply enough. Never assume that the first page pricing is consistent throughout. In general the best prices for materials per unit are someone in the middle (if there are ten pages/screens of items look at pages 4-7), but you have to be willing to buy in bulk. This is a "flaw" the the GTM price sorting system - it sorts by overall price not price per unit, so a 50 single unit posts for 2,000 each will show up ahead of a stack of 99 selling for 100k (~1,000 per unit).

 

Secondly, if you take into account that there are some players who only work their own missions to get materials and base their crafted goods pricing on mission cost per material unit, that 80K (and other pricing like it) is probably appropriate. And just because there are a lot of players trying to gouge their fellow man, does not mean everyone has to follow suit.

[Taleek]

Given the exceptionally high prices of even the green mats 400-450, I cannot believe the undercutting I'm seeing in the GTN. People must be selling at a loss when you're selling LVL 53 purples mods for 80K. Dunno. Hope this is a fad that will pass. Just days ago, things were fine. I really think 2.0 was the final nail in the coffin for crafters.

 

Level 53 purples are very very easy to make, I can run one purple UT mission I can buy for 50k and get enough purple mats to make three mods.

[RaziaA]

Are you just looking at the first page of GTM items? Because if you are, you are not seeing the full picture. There are a lot a bargains for materials if you look deeply enough. Never assume that the first page pricing is consistent throughout. In general the best prices for materials per unit are someone in the middle (if there are ten pages/screens of items look at pages 4-7), but you have to be willing to buy in bulk. This is a "flaw" the the GTM price sorting system - it sorts by overall price not price per unit, so a 50 single unit posts for 2,000 each will show up ahead of a stack of 99 selling for 100k (~1,000 per unit).

 

Secondly, if you take into account that there are some players who only work their own missions to get materials and base their crafted goods pricing on mission cost per material unit, that 80K (and other pricing like it) is probably appropriate. And just because there are a lot of players trying to gouge their fellow man, does not mean everyone has to follow suit.

 

To the first question, yes. I assume we're all experienced crafters in here, but of course I always look at all pages. But I'm also talking about the costs (opportunity, time, etc.) of even running the gathering missions, RE, etc. Crafting (especially 'crafting' as opposed to gathering) is exceedingly expensive and time-consuming. For people like me, it's a fun mini-game within the game.

 

As for the second point, again, I believe all good crafters base their sale prices on: 1) recouping costs for mats (and time, effort, etc.) and 2) obtaining some reasonable profit for the efforts (which continue on long past the first time you learn a schem). Anyone in any business should be able to recover costs and make profit where there is a demand for the goods. To ask a businessperson to sell at marginal cost will eventually disincentivize the businessperson from doing the venture.

 

tl;dr - if I can't make a nice profit crafting, I won't do it. Eventually most people won't do it either given how expensive and costly crafting is.

[caronome]

 

Secondly, if you take into account that there are some players who only work their own missions to get materials and base their crafted goods pricing on mission cost per material unit, that 80K (and other pricing like it) is probably appropriate..

 

Actually no. If the item takes 5 bars that sell for 20k, then making a purple and selling it for 80k is not a good economic decision, regardless of what you paid.. Even if you paid 1c each, taking materials that would sell for 100k and selling them as something that would sell for 80k is a 20k mistake.

 

Ofc people are free to make economic decisions, in game and out, regardless of whether they are wise.

[ScarletBlaze]

I craft because I enjoy it. I make more credits honestly running dailys so I normally look on the gtn and see what something is selling for and then sell it for a little less. But I have been known to craft something for someone and just give it to them if they get the mats and are polite about it.

 

My guild always gets things for free. I will never ever charge a guild member.

[RaziaA]

I craft because I enjoy it. I make more credits honestly running dailys so I normally look on the gtn and see what something is selling for and then sell it for a little less. But I have been known to craft something for someone and just give it to them if they get the mats and are polite about it.

 

My guild always gets things for free. I will never ever charge a guild member.

 

My guildies get everything for free.

[JamieKirby]

Secondly, if you take into account that there are some players who only work their own missions to get materials and base their crafted goods pricing on mission cost per material unit, that 80K (and other pricing like it) is probably appropriate. And just because there are a lot of players trying to gouge their fellow man, does not mean everyone has to follow suit.

 

Very well said there.

 

I wished everyone thought like that, but alas, they don't.

[sanchito]

Actually no. If the item takes 5 bars that sell for 20k, then making a purple and selling it for 80k is not a good economic decision, regardless of what you paid.. Even if you paid 1c each, taking materials that would sell for 100k and selling them as something that would sell for 80k is a 20k mistake.

 

Ofc people are free to make economic decisions, in game and out, regardless of whether they are wise.

 

Not necessarily. I only craft for myself and assume no crits, so if i do get a crit i get one extra for absolutely free. As long as the gtn price is better then the vendor i undercut to sell it for 100% profit. (from the perspective of a non-crafter)

Edited April 19, 2013 by sanchito

[psandak]

Very well said there.

 

I wished everyone thought like that, but alas, they don't.

 

Don't take what I said, for what I do . I was simply proposing a possible explanation. I love playing Devil's Advocate

 

You and I have gone back and forth on this a lot on these forums.

 

The GTM is a buyers' market - the buyers determine pricing. Sellers can post items at outrageous prices but if no one is willing to buy at those prices then, the seller just wasted his/her time. It only takes one buyer to pay that outrageous price to get the sellers to start that high and then undercut by small amounts until they find the point at which a majority of buyers will buy. Once a majority buy price is established, more frugal buyers (like yourself) either have to have patience and wait for deals, or bite the bullet and except the fact that the price is set.

 

I happen to be a frugal buyer who has patience. I have the patience to scour through 20 screens worth of materials to find a price I am willing to pay for said materials, and if nothing screams, "BUY ME!!!" I wait. But I am also a realist in that every now and again, I need a particular item and so I willing to pay a premium to get it right away. but I have millions of credits sitting around not doing much anyway so, I can afford to pay a premium now and again.

 

But before you make statement, "what about new players, who have no 'savings' to speak of?" I have played numerous MMOs and in ALL cases, when I start out I completely ignore the Bazaar, Auction House, GTM, etc, because I KNOW that the pricing will be well out of my reach and that the leveling process will give me everything I NEED. Being able to gear up off the GTM while leveling is a luxury. I wish more players would have this attitude rather than one of entitlement thinking, "I want, I want, I want, gimme, gimme, gimme. You already have millions of credits....gimme gimme gimme."

[-Damask-]

It seems many gtn sellers are terrible at business and math as well. The massive undercutting is completely unnecessary and a result of impatient people who want their credits as fast as possible. They will undercut by 50k, then another smarter crafter comes along and undercuts them by 1k on the same item. The first person comes back an hour later and sees this and they relist their item at another 50k less. They keep doing this back and forth until the price is below cost and they don't even realize it. Had they just been patient and kept the price high they would have made a profit if they had the cheapest listing when a buyer came along.

 

These bad sellers think that they can trick people into buying because their listing is so much cheaper than the other guy's. In reality when a buyer comes along they will buy the cheapest one whether it is 1k or 100k cheaper than the next. They just enter the name of the item and sort by price. Of course different types or items follow different rules, revan masks for 8 mil can be undercut and they still won't sell, but for necessary non-vanity items that people need they will always sell if priced fairly.

 

People must also realize that given the large amount of bad sellers, no price is too low to be undercut. Again impatient people may have crits that are all profit to them, so they think they can list them at half of what they cost to make and they will sell quickly. Again not true, there will always be someone else who will come along after them and undercut yet again. So all this first seller did was drop the price by 50% and everyone who lists after him lose that much credits until the listings expire and the price can go back up.

Edited April 19, 2013 by -Damask-

[RaziaA]

It seems many gtn sellers are terrible at business and math as well. The massive undercutting is completely unnecessary and a result of impatient people who want their credits as fast as possible. They will undercut by 50k, then another smarter crafter comes along and undercuts them by 1k on the same item. The first person comes back an hour later and sees this and they relist their item at another 50k less. They keep doing this back and forth until the price is below cost and they don't even realize it. Had they just been patient and kept the price high they would have made a profit if they had the cheapest listing when a buyer came along.

 

These bad sellers think that they can trick people into buying because their listing is so much cheaper than the other guy's. In reality when a buyer comes along they will buy the cheapest one whether it is 1k or 100k cheaper than the next. They just enter the name of the item and sort by price. Of course different types or items follow different rules, revan masks for 8 mil can be undercut and they still won't sell, but for necessary non-vanity items that people need they will always sell if priced fairly.

 

People must also realize that given the large amount of bad sellers, no price is too low to be undercut. Again impatient people may have crits that are all profit to them, so they think they can list them at half of what they cost to make and they will sell quickly. Again not true, there will always be someone else who will come along after them and undercut yet again. So all this first seller did was drop the price by 50% and everyone who lists after him lose that much credits until the listings expire and the price can go back up.

 

Agree with ^^ . Just basic economics. The demand for these goods right now is much higher than the bargain bin GTN pricing warrants. And the crafting costs (when time is considered as it should) is enormous. But people are impatient and IMO aren't thinking at all.

[Darev]

Hmmm...let's see.

 

I get credits for doing dailies where I can also scavenge droids for mats... = free mats.

gathering nodes while playing the game = free mats

running missions with companions I'm not using = not free mats...so some cost there.

If I run 10 450 UT missions, that can be around 35k and a lot of time, but time that I'm either doing something else with that toon, or something with another toon so I don't count the 'time' aspect as a 'cost.' Say I get 4 purple mats back...I can charge 20k for the two amorings I can craft and come pretty close to breaking even. Anything over 20k is profit. If I happen to crit and get 3, then so much the better. If the original 4 that I get back happens to be 6 or 8...then even MORE profit.

 

Most times I craft what I can use. If I happen to get crits then I have some left over to sell. At which point I'll want them sold ASAP and price them accordingly.

 

Since this game allows you to turn in planetary comms and sell those items right alongside crafted items (just one example of this crappy crafting system), the prices on the GTN are very rarely something I ever go by.

[Frostbyt]

It was bound to happen, children don't understand opportunity cost and will routinely sell things below the cost of materials.

[Darevsool]

It was bound to happen, children don't understand opportunity cost and will routinely sell things below the cost of materials.

 

What is "opportunity cost?" That's a term I've never heard.

[KiTaZ]

I undercut every time I put an item for sale. Depending on what the listed prices are I'll sell an 53 purple armoring for 80-140k. Even at 80k I still make a hefty profit to make it worth it. With how much the market fluctuates you need to undercut or most of your **** wont sell.. I put an item up as the cheapest on for 120k and then in a couple hours theres 10+ listed that are cheaper than mine. I've been averaging just under a million credits a day with out even breaking a sweat so it is working out not too bad.

[Holinyx]

if you are farming your own materials....that 80k mod is nearly ALL profit. seriously, if you are buying raw materials on the gtn in order to craft for money....you are passing up a lot of profit. you can go ahead and pay 10k each for raw materials, but i'm not. that's crazy.

[Holinyx]

also I want to point the Greed and straight up gouging on the gtn. 500k for a purple 28 augment? seriously? you can make that for less than 20k easy. 300k for mods/enhancements? you can make those for under 20k easy. You really believe those crazy high prices should be in place for 2-6 months? I give it a week and the MK-9 kits will be 100k

[Exastify]

also I want to point the Greed and straight up gouging on the gtn. 500k for a purple 28 augment? seriously? you can make that for less than 20k easy. 300k for mods/enhancements? you can make those for under 20k easy. You really believe those crazy high prices should be in place for 2-6 months? I give it a week and the MK-9 kits will be 100k

Every purple 28 augment requires FOUR thermal regulators. That's not something you just get every hour running slicing missions. On my server they are going for 75k each, so just for the regulators a purple 28 augment would be 300k.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Exastify

[znihilist]

Every purple 28 augment requires FOUR thermal regulators. That's not something you just get every hour running slicing missions. On my server they are going for 75k each, so just for the regulators a purple 28 augment would be 300k.

 

I decided to undercut in a different way (will work better after the 2.0.1 patch) is to craft them for free for everyone. Even before early access was over i crafted 28 purple augment to anyone who had the mats. although at that point it was cheaper for them to buy it directly for 500k.

[Elegances]

if you are farming your own materials....that 80k mod is nearly ALL profit. seriously, if you are buying raw materials on the gtn in order to craft for money....you are passing up a lot of profit. you can go ahead and pay 10k each for raw materials, but i'm not. that's crazy.

 

You have to factor in what you could have gotten from selling the mats, just because you got your own mats doesn't make them "free".

[znihilist]

You have to factor in what you could have gotten from selling the mats, just because you got your own mats doesn't make them "free".

 

Yes they are! He got them while he didn't spend any credit for them. You seem to be confusing maximizing profit with cost of crafting.

If he would have made more by selling the mats, it means he just perhaps made the wrong choice, it doesn't change the fact that the margin doesn't exist. He could have sold them for 100 credit and it would still be a profit.

[asbalana]

also I want to point the Greed and straight up gouging on the gtn. 500k for a purple 28 augment? seriously? you can make that for less than 20k easy. 300k for mods/enhancements? you can make those for under 20k easy. You really believe those crazy high prices should be in place for 2-6 months? I give it a week and the MK-9 kits will be 100k

 

New gear and mats always sell at a premium when new tiers are introduced via patch / expansion / or whatever. There are always those that will pay outlandish prices to get the stuff right away. It takes time for the majority of crafters to catch up and start production. The final pricing will settle out through supply and demand.

 

It is not clear to me at this poiint where the items that you mentioned will land. It is clear to most that crating took quite a hit in 2.0. The new system of planetary comms will discourage a number of players who would otherwise level up crafting skills from doing so. For example, pre level 22 armoring, mods, barrels, etc. will no longer sell to any degree and for a reasonable price. As a result, leveling from scratch a skill like Cybertech will be extreamly costly. You cannot sell your products as you go. You can get the Scavaging mats that you need through gathering nodes as you go, but not nearly enough to go through the RE process of buillding a deep book of blue and purple schematics. It is also not clear to me if it is now worth leveling up UT since the UT mats returned from missions were used to make armoring and mods or were sold as mats and I am not clear that those under level 400 have much value post 2.0. Perhaps leveling UT will have to be funded trough companion gifts if that stays near viable. So the mat skills that cannot be leveled by gathering become very costly to get from 1 to 400 as there is little way to recover the expense.

 

Crafters who have been around for a long time will not have their progression to 400 hurt by the changes. They were already there when 2.0 hit. I am three deep at least, being an altaholic and crafter, in each gatherng skill. But new players and players who play only one or two characters may be very discouraged in the future. That will keep the number of crafters lower that it should be as a percentage of the general playing population and hence the supply of the items that you mentioned low. The result will be, of course prices for crafted goods will be high.

 

------------

 

As I said, it is clear that crafting took quite a hit in 2.0. I, for the life of me, can't understand the rational for dong that. I have never seen an official explanation as to why. Has anyone seen anything from a dev that explains the idea behind the changes or what was being attempted to be accomplished. Someone on BW staff had to come up with the design concepts and then present it to the powers that be before they were accepted. So there must be some rational. I guess I just don't see it and have never seen anyone from BW make a statement as to why. If any of the CMs happen to read this, please ask the devs and let us know. I am sure that I am not the only one who plays the game, has been impacted by the changes, and is curious.

Edited April 20, 2013 by asbalana

[Elegances]

Yes they are! He got them while he didn't spend any credit for them. You seem to be confusing maximizing profit with cost of crafting.

If he would have made more by selling the mats, it means he just perhaps made the wrong choice, it doesn't change the fact that the margin doesn't exist. He could have sold them for 100 credit and it would still be a profit.

What I mean is, while you may have obtained them without cost, that doesn't make the mats lose their value

You are still essentially paying a price for using the mats, since you could have sold them otherwise.

It still is up to you how to use your mats, though!

[znihilist]

What I mean is, while you may have obtained them without cost, that doesn't make the mats lose their value

You are still essentially paying a price for using the mats, since you could have sold them otherwise.

It still is up to you how to use your mats, though!

 

That was more or less my point (perhaps I misunderstood what you said), he gained these mats with nothing from his part (except his time), whatever he decides to do with them will be a profit (unless he is sitting on them)!