I want a 30 second Force speed with no cooldown.

[Xanas]

Gold star for you sir. Stacking CD to disable it after too many uses but will fall off after a few more seconds is great.

 

Don't nerf anyone's DPS... yet. Some DPS is intense but still fits within PvP mechanics. Sorc's are the closest to breaking it but not there yet.

 

Nerf BURST but make it more sustained. Ending up dead from stuns and the burst in general is out of control. Yes it needs a nerf.

[DimeStax]

Probably because it wasn't 100% required to even have a chance of winning on 2 out of 5 Warzone maps against remotely competent opponents.

 

And beyond that, both classes were highly worth bringing because they were solid all around. Both have at least 2 very RWZ-viable specs to choose from and can fill different niches as required.

 

I don't argue in the slightest that a Huttball team without a Juggy hybrid was at a disadvantage, and that multiple maps became significantly easier with an 80% movement speed buff. The core difference is not that certain classes brought clear advantages to a team, but that before 2.0 a viable team could be built without them.

 

Operative is now 100% required to even have a chance of winning almost half of RWZs which weren't already going to be a blowout. Don't bring one, and you can already tally up the loss (unless facing a drastically inferior team, at which point it's not really a competitive game anymore) on Huttball and Civil War. Trollrolling can be countered on Hypergate and VS (at the cost of sacrificing an objective in VS, but that's a totally worthwhile decision), so it's not quite as unstoppable there.

 

Before 2.0, Operatives were useful as healers and little else. Now, they've got 3 potentially viable specs, a transcendentally dominant ability that singlehandedly changes the outcome of competitive PVP, and no counters besides themselves. And best of all, it all stems from a single ability which can easily be retuned. After a small change to trollroll (either limit on successive uses or very short CD to limit ground-covering in a short span), you'd be left with the best PVP healer and 2 viable DPS specs. I don't argue in the slightest that you're still going to see a heavy dose of Snipers/Slingers and Knights/Warriors as primary RWZ DPS, but Op/Scoundrel is no longer in a place where it simply can't compete, no matter what.

 

I don't understand. First you say that no one complained about having to take Sentinels or Guardians into RWZ's pre 2.0 when they had Game-Breaking specs because the classes had good all around specs for RWZs, and then at the end of your statement you said that Op Scoundrels are "no longer in a place where they simply can't compete." So why not just take one? Pre 2.0 Combat Sentinel 80% movement speed certainly was a must have for transitions in all RWZs, and you weren't going to win against a team that had one if your team didn't. Guardian hybrids were in the same boat in Huttball: you simply weren't going to win against a team that had a Guardian Hybrid build in Huttball unless your team also had one. If Ops and Scroundels are now on par with other classes and they are acceptable to take to RWZs, then just take one and stop complaining about it.

[ML_DoubleTap]

Gold star for you sir. Stacking CD to disable it after too many uses but will fall off after a few more seconds is great.

 

Don't nerf anyone's DPS... yet. Some DPS is intense but still fits within PvP mechanics. Sorc's are the closest to breaking it but not there yet.

 

I had suggested tacking a proc onto an exising skill in a low tier skill like Holdout Defense that read something like, "Using Scamper grants (1)(2) stacks of Quick Getaway(or other cheesy name), which removes the cooldown from Scamper." So, then you could add a 6 second cooldown to the ability and you'd be able to use it 3 times in a row every 6 seconds basically.

 

Personally, I don't think it's necessary to nerf it, but it would be an option at least.

[Omophorus]

I don't understand. First you say that no one complained about having to take Sentinels or Guardians into RWZ's pre 2.0 when they had Game-Breaking specs because the classes had good all around specs for RWZs, and then at the end of your statement you said that Op Scoundrels are "no longer in a place where they simply can't compete." So why not just take one? Pre 2.0 Combat Sentinel 80% movement speed certainly was a must have for transitions in all RWZs, and you weren't going to win against a team that had one if your team didn't. Guardian hybrids were in the same boat in Huttball: you simply weren't going to win against a team that had a Guardian Hybrid build in Huttball unless your team also had one. If Ops and Scroundels are now on par with other classes and they are acceptable to take to RWZs, then just take one and stop complaining about it.

 

Because neither was game-breaking. They conveyed significant advantage that made their use optimal, but their absence was not insurmountable. A team without a Juggy could win Huttball against an evenly-matched team with one, and a team without 80% movement speed buffs could still win against a team with them. It may put them at a disadvantage, sure, but not one so overwhelming that there simply was no recourse except mirroring the tactic.

 

Trollroll is game-breaking. It conveys a significant advantage which can be completely insurmountable except via employing the same tactic. That's the core difference.

 

Hybrid tanks in Huttball were not unbeatable. They were far and away the best ballcarriers, yes, but if you could still compete without them (albeit at a significant disadvantage). The absence of one was not an instant guarantee of failure the way Huttball currently is with a trollroller getting the ball initially. You gain such an advantageous position from an uncontested grab at the beginning that there's almost no recovery in a closely-matched game.

 

Likewise for Predation... 80% movement speed buff is a huge advantage, but it can't instantly secure victory the way trollroll can right now. There are counters (including, but certainly not limited to, normal 50% Predation, Force Speed, etc.).

 

Don't get me wrong here, I do think that Warriors in particular had an unfairly advantageous position when it came to team selection for RWZ, but they didn't provide an insurmountable advantage in WZs all by themselves. You could still have a successful team without them. Right now, you can't have a successful team without trollroll because the advantages it conveys have absolutely no counter other than mirroring the tactic. It is almost impossible to win 2 out of 5 WZs without trollroll if the other team uses it, and you can't be a successful team if you are effectively forfeiting 40% of your RWZs.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Omophorus

[Glower]

Likewise for Predation... 80% movement speed buff is a huge advantage, but it can't instantly secure victory the way trollroll can right now. There are counters (including, but certainly not limited to, normal 50% Predation, Force Speed, etc.).

 

So, you can beat two-step (from one char lol, with reset) and chained Predation but can't stop/slow one fken roller?

What are you smoking!?

[Zorash]

Because neither was game-breaking. They conveyed significant advantage that made their use optimal, but their absence was not insurmountable. A team without a Juggy could win Huttball against an evenly-matched team with one, and a team without 80% movement speed buffs could still win against a team with them. It may put them at a disadvantage, sure, but not one so overwhelming that there simply was no recourse except mirroring the tactic.

 

Trollroll is game-breaking. It conveys a significant advantage which can be completely insurmountable except via employing the same tactic. That's the core difference.

 

Hybrid tanks in Huttball were not unbeatable. They were far and away the best ballcarriers, yes, but if you could still compete without them (albeit at a significant disadvantage). The absence of one was not an instant guarantee of failure the way Huttball currently is with a trollroller getting the ball initially. You gain such an advantageous position from an uncontested grab at the beginning that there's almost no recovery in a closely-matched game.

 

Likewise for Predation... 80% movement speed buff is a huge advantage, but it can't instantly secure victory the way trollroll can right now. There are counters (including, but certainly not limited to, normal 50% Predation, Force Speed, etc.).

 

Don't get me wrong here, I do think that Warriors in particular had an unfairly advantageous position when it came to team selection for RWZ, but they didn't provide an insurmountable advantage in WZs all by themselves. You could still have a successful team without them. Right now, you can't have a successful team without trollroll because the advantages it conveys have absolutely no counter other than mirroring the tactic. It is almost impossible to win 2 out of 5 WZs without trollroll if the other team uses it, and you can't be a successful team if you are effectively forfeiting 40% of your RWZs.

 

Finally a person that can rationally talk and isn't just a QQ whiner, even though I don't agree with you.

 

Your earlier post proved my point that DPS operatives never brought anything to the table outside of heals and they still dont, except scamper. You even confirmed that sentinels/marauders bring a ton more to the table, which is why people didn't have an issue bringing them, but people have an issue bringing DPS operatives.

 

The fact that people are so against bringing a DPS operative, just shows how badly the class is and by nerfing scamper you ruin the class of being competitive in rwz.

 

By nerfing scamper you put DPS operatives in the exact same spot as before the expansion. The only significant change that happened in the expansion was scamper, thus nerfing it, you remove their viability in rwz. If they're going to nerf scamper they sure as hell better give a ton more abilities to operatives, so they bring utility. Let's face it if you remove transcendence and scamper, marauders/sentinels>>>>>>>>>>>>>>DPS operatives/scoundrels in terms of damage or utiliy. In the end why is it fair to nerf operatives/scroundrels, when they bring nothing to the table outside heals. Thus I ask you how is it game-breaking to bring a class specifically for getting the huttball first, at the same time sacrificing all this utility, damage etc. for a class that actually does more then scamper.

 

People seem to use huttball as the most OP scenario for scamper, yet look at huttball. They don't have knockbacks, leaps to enemies or allies, force pulling enemies or allies. In the end they only bring heals, stealth and scamper, which people want to nerf. Let's face it stealth really isn't as big of a advantage considering a shadow/assassin will be far better suited for any role a stealther will play.

 

You also can't tell me transcendence isn't game breaking, like you claim scamper does. Every rwz team has transcendence for a reason and with the marauders/sentinels you bring a ton of damage and utility. A team that brings a DPS scoundrels sacrifices a huge amount of utility, damage and survivability for 1 ability, which sounds like a pretty hefty tradeoff to me.

 

Stating that it's game breaking if they get the ball first, no not really. Yes, they're at a severe disadvantage, but guess what so is a team that doesn't have transcendence. You're also taking out of context the lack of utility of the operative in kiling the ball carrier, stopping them from capping etc. All of those things a marauder/sentinel or any other class that is brought on rwz teams. Like I stated it's a hefty tradeoff, which people seem to forget.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Zorash

[Omophorus]

So, you can beat two-step (from one char lol, with reset) and chained Predation but can't stop/slow one fken roller?

What are you smoking!?

 

That is a separate imbalance added in 2.0 which needs to be addressed, honestly.

 

It is a lower priority, however, because it is less game-breaking and far more difficult to execute on demand in any situation. Frenzy's CD limits the effectiveness of chained Predation, as does the requirement to have 30 Fury ready to. Certainly an Op could be low on energy and limited in their ability to trollroll, just as a Mara could be short on Fury and unable to two-step Pred (or even use it at all, if Frenzy is on CD).

 

On top of that, the most overpowered use of the two-step Pred is the start of Huttball, and it's still not fast enough to beat a trollroller to the punch. It may get you there fast enough to interfere with the first pass if you're lucky, but it may not. It doesn't hard-counter trollroll (nothing does except trollrolling).

 

Range advantage and the size of Warzones frequently hard counter Predation. It is an amazing buff, and I don't mean to downplay that fact. It gives the team a huge advantage in mobility which translates to map control. It is inferior to trollroll in the single key manner that it is not capable of single-handedly deciding the outcome of a competitive game before it starts, even chained in 2.0.

 

I suspect Marauder will continue to be a highly, and probably unfairly, popular class in RWZs, and that should be addressed by the developers, but it's not game-breaking in the way trollroll is.

[Coldin]

I still fail to see how the roll is any more "game-breaking" than Force Speed or Transcendence. It lets a scoundrel get to an objective just 1-2 seconds faster than someone else (burning all their power in the process). And is half as effective while slowed, including while holding the huttball. Force Speed isn't affected by a slow FYI.

[Omophorus]

Finally a person that can rationally talk and isn't just a QQ whiner, even though I don't agree with you.

 

Your earlier post proved my point that DPS operatives never brought anything to the table outside of heals and they still dont, except scamper. You even confirmed that sentinels/marauders bring a ton more to the table, which is why people didn't have an issue bringing them, but people have an issue bringing DPS operatives.

 

And I completely disagree with what I've bolded in your post. Before 2.0 the DPS gap between Operative and not-Operative was immense. That gap has been closed significantly. The biggest things hamstringing Operative were lack of mobility (fixed, to an absurd degree, via Exfiltrate) and woefully inadequate DPS (addressed via changes to talent trees, especially around Laceration and Cull).

 

I do think that Operative is an unfairly high skill floor DPS to be effective with, but the ceiling is no longer so low that it simply cannot be competitive in a DPS role.

 

Aggravatingly, Concealment/Scrapper still can't match the burst of Deception/Infiltration, and an unfortunate component of that is how strong Hidden Strike is compared to Spike (theoretically compensated for, in part, by shorter CD, but hard to make use of in big scrums). The difference between Backstab and Maul is bordering on farcical and should be dealt with, but conversely Laceration is a fantastically strong filler attack now and far stronger than Thrash/Voltaic Slash.

 

I don't mean to sound as though no balance work needs to be done in 2.0, because there absolutely does. I do think that making DPS balance changes now, before 55 PVP has had any chance to take something akin to its final shape, is premature. I also think that the mobility Operative has now is game-breaking and can be toned down to a reasonable level via minor tweaks that will not break the mobility of the class on the whole (e.g. <5 second duration buff associated with the troll roll that will lock out the skill at N stacks, most likely 3, until the buff expires).

 

I still fail to see how the roll is any more "game-breaking" than Force Speed or Transcendence. It lets a scoundrel get to an objective just 1-2 seconds faster than someone else (burning all their power in the process). And is half as effective while slowed, including while holding the huttball. Force Speed isn't affected by a slow FYI.

 

Because competitive games of Huttball and Alderaan Civil War are generally decided by first possession and first natural node cap, respectively. Trollroll nearly guarantees that these will occur for the user's team, and thus drastically imbalances those particular Warzones to a spectacular degree.

 

Later in the game it becomes only shockingly strong (and comparable to Predation or Force Speed), but the existence of the skill in its current form reduces the number of effective strategies on 2 out of 5 WZs to basically 1.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Omophorus

[Zorash]

That is a separate imbalance added in 2.0 which needs to be addressed, honestly.

 

It is a lower priority, however, because it is less game-breaking and far more difficult to execute on demand in any situation. Frenzy's CD limits the effectiveness of chained Predation, as does the requirement to have 30 Fury ready to. Certainly an Op could be low on energy and limited in their ability to trollroll, just as a Mara could be short on Fury and unable to two-step Pred (or even use it at all, if Frenzy is on CD).

 

On top of that, the most overpowered use of the two-step Pred is the start of Huttball, and it's still not fast enough to beat a trollroller to the punch. It may get you there fast enough to interfere with the first pass if you're lucky, but it may not. It doesn't hard-counter trollroll (nothing does except trollrolling).

 

Range advantage and the size of Warzones frequently hard counter Predation. It is an amazing buff, and I don't mean to downplay that fact. It gives the team a huge advantage in mobility which translates to map control. It is inferior to trollroll in the single key manner that it is not capable of single-handedly deciding the outcome of a competitive game before it starts, even chained in 2.0.

 

I suspect Marauder will continue to be a highly, and probably unfairly, popular class in RWZs, and that should be addressed by the developers, but it's not game-breaking in the way trollroll is.

 

So the other team brought a class that affects the first 10s of the match by getting the huttball first, what happens during the 10 other minutes in the match? People pulling allies to cap, people stealthing at the goal line, people leaping to enemies or allies to cap or stop the cap etc. During that period of time the team with the DPS operative to get the first huttball possession is at a disadvantage in terns of capping or stopping the cap for the rest of the match.

[Omophorus]

So the other team brought a class that affects the first 10s of the match by getting the huttball first, what happens during the 10 other minutes in the match? People pulling allies to cap, people stealthing at the goal line, people leaping to enemies or allies to cap or stop the cap etc. During that period of time the team with the DPS operative to get the first huttball possession is at a disadvantage in terns of capping or stopping the cap for the rest of the match.

 

In a competitive game? The same things that happen now.

 

The team with the ball first in Huttball scores and gains momentum, which, if they're worth their salt, they use to hold the lead throughout the game (by either scoring additional goals or denying momentum and offense to the other team). If they don't score, they still gain a momentum advantage which they can use to keep the other team playing reactively and defensively.

 

In Civil War, you get the first shot at their ship, scrum endlessly for mid, and avoid losing your side at all costs. Game ends 10-0 after 20+ minutes of pointless fighting and hugely inflated scoreboard numbers.

 

After the first 10 seconds, nothing changes, but that first 10 seconds changes everything, as they turn a coin-flip (which could be influenced by a variety of tactics and team compositions) which decides a match into a near-guarantee, provided one tactic and team member of the proper class/spec are utilized.

 

In less competitive games (one-sided ranked games, PUG games) those advantages don't convey to near-certain victory, but at that point skill imbalance between teams and poor play tend to determine the outcome rather than team composition or single overpowered abilities.

 

You can't balance a competitive game around the average, only ensure that it's fairly balanced when played by a group of average players.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Omophorus

[DimeStax]

Because neither was game-breaking. They conveyed significant advantage that made their use optimal, but their absence was not insurmountable. A team without a Juggy could win Huttball against an evenly-matched team with one, and a team without 80% movement speed buffs could still win against a team with them. It may put them at a disadvantage, sure, but not one so overwhelming that there simply was no recourse except mirroring the tactic.

 

Trollroll is game-breaking. It conveys a significant advantage which can be completely insurmountable except via employing the same tactic. That's the core difference.

 

Hybrid tanks in Huttball were not unbeatable. They were far and away the best ballcarriers, yes, but if you could still compete without them (albeit at a significant disadvantage). The absence of one was not an instant guarantee of failure the way Huttball currently is with a trollroller getting the ball initially. You gain such an advantageous position from an uncontested grab at the beginning that there's almost no recovery in a closely-matched game.

 

Likewise for Predation... 80% movement speed buff is a huge advantage, but it can't instantly secure victory the way trollroll can right now. There are counters (including, but certainly not limited to, normal 50% Predation, Force Speed, etc.).

 

Don't get me wrong here, I do think that Warriors in particular had an unfairly advantageous position when it came to team selection for RWZ, but they didn't provide an insurmountable advantage in WZs all by themselves. You could still have a successful team without them. Right now, you can't have a successful team without trollroll because the advantages it conveys have absolutely no counter other than mirroring the tactic. It is almost impossible to win 2 out of 5 WZs without trollroll if the other team uses it, and you can't be a successful team if you are effectively forfeiting 40% of your RWZs.

 

You always contradict yourself in the ending statements of your argument. First you say that "Trollrolling is game-breaking" and that it "conveys a significant advantage which can be completely insurmountable except via employing the same tactic," and then in your final statement you say, "It's almost impossible to win 2 out of 5 WZs without trollroll if the other team uses it." My point is that even though you may be at a disadvantage without it, even you admit that it IS possible to win against teams who have Ops/Soundrels if you don't have one (2 out of 5 games). The same was true with the previously mentioned Sentinel and Guardian specs. You may have been able to win 2 out of 5 games against teams with aforementioned Knight specs, but you certainly weren't going to consistently be a successful team without them. Hence why Knights with these specs are still popular choices in high ranked teams today.

[Zorash]

And I completely disagree with what I've bolded in your post. Before 2.0 the DPS gap between Operative and not-Operative was immense. That gap has been closed significantly. The biggest things hamstringing Operative were lack of mobility (fixed, to an absurd degree, via Exfiltrate) and woefully inadequate DPS (addressed via changes to talent trees, especially around Laceration and Cull).

 

I do think that Operative is an unfairly high skill floor DPS to be effective with, but the ceiling is no longer so low that it simply cannot be competitive in a DPS role.

 

Aggravatingly, Concealment/Scrapper still can't match the burst of Deception/Infiltration, and an unfortunate component of that is how strong Hidden Strike is compared to Spike (theoretically compensated for, in part, by shorter CD, but hard to make use of in big scrums). The difference between Backstab and Maul is bordering on farcical and should be dealt with, but conversely Laceration is a fantastically strong filler attack now and far stronger than Thrash/Voltaic Slash.

 

I don't mean to sound as though no balance work needs to be done in 2.0, because there absolutely does. I do think that making DPS balance changes now, before 55 PVP has had any chance to take something akin to its final shape, is premature. I also think that the mobility Operative has now is game-breaking and can be toned down to a reasonable level via minor tweaks that will not break the mobility of the class on the whole (e.g. <5 second duration buff associated with the troll roll that will lock out the skill at N stacks, most likely 3, until the buff expires).

 

Yes they have received DPS changes, so I shouldn't of made it sound that bad. The reality is that they are still in a similar state when comparing them to before the expansion if you ignore scamper. The reason I say ignore scamper is because people want to nerf it into oblivion. Nerfing it, makes it inferior in every way compared to another class, besides heals.

 

Your post re-iterates my point to a certain degree, an operative/scoundrel has horrible utility, but brings burst, which is worst then assassin/shadow. I am so against nerfing scamper because they bring nothing to the table that a class can't do better, which no one including yourself has shown. I am fine if they nerf scamper, but they need to add or change aspects of the class to bring it on par with the other classes to make it viable. The only reason DPS operatives are being considered is scamper, that ability is why people might actually consider bringing 1.

 

I don't disagree that scamper is an extremely powerful ability, but he majority of the people whining probably will never ever do rwz or be in a situation where scamper wins the game by itself. If you watch huttball matches you can see many people who don't bother to go for capping or stopping the person from capping it. In the end for the majority of these people whining, their team's lack of coordination, strategy etc. will determine the outcome of the match and not scamper.

[Omophorus]

You always contradict yourself in the ending statements of your argument. First you say that "Trollrolling is game-breaking" and that it "conveys a significant advantage which can be completely insurmountable except via employing the same tactic," and then in your final statement you say, "It's almost impossible to win 2 out of 5 WZs without trollroll if the other team uses it." My point is that even though you may be at a disadvantage without it, even you admit that it IS possible to win against teams who have Ops/Soundrels if you don't have one (2 out of 5 games). The same was true with the previously mentioned Sentinel and Guardian specs. You may have been able to win 2 out of 5 games against teams with aforementioned Knight specs, but you certainly weren't going to consistently be a successful team without them. Hence why Knights with these specs are still popular choices in high ranked teams today.

 

You misinterpreted.

 

You could win a competitive ranked game on Voidstar, Novare Coast, or Ancient Hypergate without an Op/Scoundrel on your team.

 

You have virtually no chance of winning Huttball or Civil War because the only effective counter-tactic is the tactic itself.

 

2 out of 5 possible WZ maps are essentially forfeits, and if all 5 WZ maps show up with an equal average frequency, you lose 40% of games against an otherwise evenly-matched team before the match even starts. Not even pre-2.0 Sith Warriors were that dominant in ranked play.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Omophorus

[Alphasgimaone]

Hey, I know! Let's just give Phase Walk a target reticle. Then Sins can instantly traverse any 60 meters they choose. Heck, let's give Force leap the same thing. That outta make all those smashers feel better about themselves.

 

Or here's an idea. Plant your Phase Walk in the endzone instead of just zerging for the tee. If the other team does have this mythical duo of uber Scoundrels, you can get back in time to Overload the ball carrier off into the pit, or just faceroll and take the ball.

 

Sins are no longer the first to the ball. Adapt. Play defense a little. I think that's the real issue here, they're not mad Scamper is OP, they're just mad they can't medal farm anymore.

 

People keep saying nonsense like "Only good players know how OP it is." No, good players have already come with ways to slow it stop.

 

But I suppose I don't know what I'm talking about. This thread is full of anecdotal evidence and one really poor video to support that.

[Zorash]

In a competitive game? The same things that happen now.

 

The team with the ball first in Huttball scores and gains momentum, which, if they're worth their salt, they use to hold the lead throughout the game (by either scoring additional goals or denying momentum and offense to the other team). If they don't score, they still gain a momentum advantage which they can use to keep the other team playing reactively and defensively.

 

In Civil War, you get the first shot at their ship, scrum endlessly for mid, and avoid losing your side at all costs. Game ends 10-0 after 20+ minutes of pointless fighting and hugely inflated scoreboard numbers.

 

After the first 10 seconds, nothing changes, but that first 10 seconds changes everything, as they turn a coin-flip (which could be influenced by a variety of tactics and team compositions) which decides a match into a near-guarantee, provided one tactic and team member of the proper class/spec are utilized.

 

In less competitive games (one-sided ranked games, PUG games) those advantages don't convey to near-certain victory, but at that point skill imbalance between teams and poor play tend to determine the outcome rather than team composition or single overpowered abilities.

 

You can't balance a competitive game around the average, only ensure that it's fairly balanced when played by a group of average players.

 

Take civil war. Pretend scamper is nerfed into obliviion so it has no impact.

 

Team1: has transcendence

Team2: doesn't have transcendence

 

Who wins? Team 1 because of transcendence.

 

Take the same situation for huttball, the team with transcendence is exactly how you described it, they have the momentum giving themselves the advantage. Why is it ok for a marauder/sentintel to impact the flow of the game and not ok for a operative/scoundrel? I have yet to see a single person answer this question in the thread.

 

People act like transcendence is not game-breaking, but then tell me why every single rwz team has one?

 

Now you ignored my part about an operative/scoundrel getting first possession of huttball. They bring no utility, so outside of those first 10 seconds they have a subpar dps putting themselves at a disadvantage in terms of dps, utility etc. during the huttball match. It's a lot easier to prevent a cap or cap the ball when you have another person who can knock them off the ledge, leap up, force pull people etc. By bringing that operative/scoundrel you have gauranteed yourself to have less dps, utilty etc. for scamper.

[DimeStax]

You misinterpreted.

 

You could win a competitive ranked game on Voidstar, Novare Coast, or Ancient Hypergate without an Op/Scoundrel on your team.

 

You have virtually no chance of winning Huttball or Civil War because the only effective counter-tactic is the tactic itself.

 

2 out of 5 possible WZ maps are essentially forfeits, and if all 5 WZ maps show up with an equal average frequency, you lose 40% of games against an otherwise evenly-matched team before the match even starts. Not even pre-2.0 Sith Warriors were that dominant in ranked play.

 

I didn't misinterpret, you didn't specify.

 

If you claim that not even pre-2.0 Knights were that dominant in ranked play, I challenge you to play against highly ranked teams with any classes you want with the exception of Knight classes, and then come back here and tell me how "game-breaking" Ops are.

Edited April 19, 2013 by DimeStax

[Omophorus]

Yes they have received DPS changes, so I shouldn't of made it sound that bad. The reality is that they are still in a similar state when comparing them to before the expansion if you ignore scamper. The reason I say ignore scamper is because people want to nerf it into oblivion. Nerfing it, makes it inferior in every way compared to another class, besides heals.

 

Some people do, certainly, but they're the same ones that want everything that beats them nerfed into oblivion. Most of the more sane people discussing the skill (either on this thread, in game, or what have you) prefer smaller adjustments that limit the maximum distance traveled in a short span of time via a minute CD or other mechanic to limit sequential use (as the current mechanic of Energy cost is insufficient in practice, and cannot be adjusted to address the situation without utterly destroying the utility of the skill).

 

Your post re-iterates my point to a certain degree, an operative/scoundrel has horrible utility, but brings burst, which is worst then assassin/shadow. I am so against nerfing scamper because they bring nothing to the table that a class can't do better, which no one including yourself has shown. I am fine if they nerf scamper, but they need to add or change aspects of the class to bring it on par with the other classes to make it viable. The only reason DPS operatives are being considered is scamper, that ability is why people might actually consider bringing 1.

 

Stealth is an amazing utility in its own right. It's just not a useful piece of utility without mobility or competitive DPS. More ability to make use of it, or further improvements in mid-combat burst, would be welcome, especially for Concealment. Cull is incredibly bursty already (especially with the new proc) for Lethality, but Concealment does still need some tweaks for when entering Stealth isn't feasible.

 

I don't disagree that scamper is an extremely powerful ability, but he majority of the people whining probably will never ever do rwz or be in a situation where scamper wins the game by itself. If you watch huttball matches you can see many people who don't bother to go for capping or stopping the person from capping it. In the end for the majority of these people whining, their team's lack of coordination, strategy etc. will determine the outcome of the match and not scamper.

 

This is all undeniably true, but you still can't balance the game for the average. The fact that these games could occur is reason enough in and of itself to look for sane, measured adjustments to trollrolling to keep the ability strong and useful, but not uniquely able to decide the outcome of a RWZ game before it starts.

[Omophorus]

Take civil war. Pretend scamper is nerfed into obliviion so it has no impact.

 

Team1: has transcendence

Team2: doesn't have transcendence

 

Who wins? Team 1 because of transcendence.

 

Take the same situation for huttball, the team with transcendence is exactly how you described it, they have the momentum giving themselves the advantage. Why is it ok for a marauder/sentintel to impact the flow of the game and not ok for a operative/scoundrel? I have yet to see a single person answer this question in the thread.

 

People act like transcendence is not game-breaking, but then tell me why every single rwz team has one?

 

Now you ignored my part about an operative/scoundrel getting first possession of huttball. They bring no utility, so outside of those first 10 seconds they have a subpar dps putting themselves at a disadvantage in terms of dps, utility etc. during the huttball match. It's a lot easier to prevent a cap or cap the ball when you have another person who can knock them off the ledge, leap up, force pull people etc. By bringing that operative/scoundrel you have gauranteed yourself to have less dps, utilty etc. for scamper.

 

An individual with Force Speed can make it to the opposing team's natural in time to interrupt a cap with or without Transcendence in play for either team. It is not perfectly reliable, and if it fails the game is likely lost. If the team has neither Force Speed nor Transcendence, they're almost certainly boned. It is not a well-balanced scenario, but counters do exist other than "use Transcendence" even if they are not reliable.

 

If one team has trollroll and the other does not, even Force Speed is insufficient. I have not seen even 80% Transcendence be sufficient (due to LOS issues), but I grant that it probably could be possible in combination with Force Speed or with absolutely perfect timing and placement of an instant ground-target AoE (e.g. Death Field).

 

The critical difference for Huttball is that even with Transcendence, both teams reach mid in quick enough succession that even the slower team is present in force in time to react to the initial ball grab. A well-coordinated effort can force a turnover, which is not possible with a trollroll opening. I do not mean to say that Transcendence doesn't provide a tremendous advantage, but the difference between "too late but able to do something useful" and simply "too late to do anything" are immense and measured in a second or two. Seconds which the current state of trollroll provide.

 

I will absolutely, unabashedly, and unreservedly grant that Transcendance, especially with the talent buffing it to 80% movement speed, is an ability that is unfairly strong. I don't think I've said otherwise. It is not, for all intents and purposes, un-counterable, which is the only difference between it and trollroll, though an incredibly noteworthy difference. The difference between "hard to counter but possible" and "virtually impossible to counter" is small but relevant.

 

For the second part of your post, it simply isn't the case anymore that Operative is a drastically sub-par DPS. It is effective, even in Huttball of pressuring healers to control momentum in the middle. It can move into position to be a target for Intercede. Or, to take a different tack, the Operative who performed the initial ball capture could respec to heals if the team feels that they aren't worthwhile in a DPS role. For the first 15-20 seconds of a Huttball game, it is not disadvantageous to be down a healer, and you could be spec-swapped and in position to be helpful before the carrier reaches the goal line. Maybe not what you want to hear, but certainly one entirely valid answer to the idea of bringing a "dead weight" DPS.

[Coldin]

If one team has trollroll and the other does not, even Force Speed is insufficient. I have not seen even 80% Transcendence be sufficient (due to LOS issues), but I grant that it probably could be possible in combination with Force Speed or with absolutely perfect timing and placement of an instant ground-target AoE (e.g. Death Field).

 

It's pretty aggravating that you call it "trollroll". Maybe I should start calling Harpoon "trollgrapple". Or Force Shroud, "trollshield".

 

Force Speed IS sufficient to stop a cap. If you're finding it's not, then likely there are other factors occurring to stop you from reaching the scoundrel in time.

[Zorash]

An individual with Force Speed can make it to the opposing team's natural in time to interrupt a cap with or without Transcendence in play for either team. It is not perfectly reliable, and if it fails the game is likely lost. If the team has neither Force Speed nor Transcendence, they're almost certainly boned. It is not a well-balanced scenario, but counters do exist other than "use Transcendence" even if they are not reliable.

 

If one team has trollroll and the other does not, even Force Speed is insufficient. I have not seen even 80% Transcendence be sufficient (due to LOS issues), but I grant that it probably could be possible in combination with Force Speed or with absolutely perfect timing and placement of an instant ground-target AoE (e.g. Death Field).

 

The critical difference for Huttball is that even with Transcendence, both teams reach mid in quick enough succession that even the slower team is present in force in time to react to the initial ball grab. A well-coordinated effort can force a turnover, which is not possible with a trollroll opening. I do not mean to say that Transcendence doesn't provide a tremendous advantage, but the difference between "too late but able to do something useful" and simply "too late to do anything" are immense and measured in a second or two. Seconds which the current state of trollroll provide.

 

I will absolutely, unabashedly, and unreservedly grant that Transcendance, especially with the talent buffing it to 80% movement speed, is an ability that is unfairly strong. I don't think I've said otherwise. It is not, for all intents and purposes, un-counterable, which is the only difference between it and trollroll, though an incredibly noteworthy difference. The difference between "hard to counter but possible" and "virtually impossible to counter" is small but relevant.

 

For the second part of your post, it simply isn't the case anymore that Operative is a drastically sub-par DPS. It is effective, even in Huttball of pressuring healers to control momentum in the middle. It can move into position to be a target for Intercede. Or, to take a different tack, the Operative who performed the initial ball capture could respec to heals if the team feels that they aren't worthwhile in a DPS role. For the first 15-20 seconds of a Huttball game, it is not disadvantageous to be down a healer, and you could be spec-swapped and in position to be helpful before the carrier reaches the goal line. Maybe not what you want to hear, but certainly one entirely valid answer to the idea of bringing a "dead weight" DPS.

 

Yes, transcendence is counterable, but it's such a considerable advantage everyone brings one.

 

People didn't seem to be as opposed to marauders/sentinels having a group speed boost as operatives/scoundrels having a speed boost, which is why I am so dumbfounded.

 

Yes scamper is faster then trans, but why shouldn't a single person speed boost be faster. Especially, considering the lack of utility the class brings.

 

You also state that 2/5 wzs scoundrels/operatives are superior because of scamper, but what about the 3 other wzs. You put yourself at an advantage for 2 wzs, but make yourself inferior to the other 3.

 

Also, the devs have stated they know the issue with civil war in rwz taking 20m with each team having a side node and everyone fighting for the mid is an issue, is hopefully they fix that. That will make everyone enjoy civil war more in rwz and make the scamper ability less of an impact.

 

What I meant by sub-bar dps is not the dps itself but the class in general. The class brings burst dps and stealth, that's it, outside of scamper. An assassin does both of those roles better while having better cc, such as a knockback that can change the fight in huttball. It's why the class in general is dead weight in terms of it's role as a DPSer.

 

Using what you said, a lot of rwzs bring operative healers, so wouldn't huttball be less game-breaking then since both teams will have one to counter it.

[Omophorus]

It's pretty aggravating that you call it "trollroll". Maybe I should start calling Harpoon "trollgrapple". Or Force Shroud, "trollshield".

 

Force Speed IS sufficient to stop a cap. If you're finding it's not, then likely there are other factors occurring to stop you from reaching the scoundrel in time.

 

It rhymes, and I have tremendous fun exploiting it on my Operative, so I'm going to continue using it. I am a troll in game and I don't pretend otherwise.

 

Force Speed is fast enough to reach the other team's node right after the cap completes if the roller did it right (e.g. ledge launch for extra distance, optimal path to node, no delayed rolls), which is fast enough in unranked games to nuke a recovering Op and take the node if no interceptor is sent. In a ranked game, I wouldn't put money on it.

[Campaigner]

Yeah last night I was in a huttball and we had slow pred (50%) and I dropped down from top mid and an Op had already grabbed the ball, *** is that? By the time I was in range to leap to him he threw it to the jugg on their team and vanished right after the leap. So... Yeah not op'ed guys :|.

 

Hahaha

[Campaigner]

God forbid anyone besides the jedi classes have utility.

 

Really though, the jedi classes are so spoiled about being the center of attention in everything that they QQ as soon as anyone can do something they cannot.

[Galipolie]

Don't even discuss, it's too imba. Nerf it *********** bioware noobs!