Get rid of expertise

[FuryoftheStars]

Seeing point and counter point made back and forth...

 

What exactly do you suggest to do with the removal of expertise in order to go keep the world of PvE gear and PvP gear balanced and separate?

Easy... you don't truely separate them. Separating them is what causes the problem in the first place that expertise is meant to solve. You can separate in looks, sure. And some of the stats can be different (certain ones may have more usefulness in PvP and vise versa), but they will stay comparable.

 

(Not aimed specifically at you ->) "But then you have everyone PvP grinding for their gear instead of Ops, etc"... no, you don't. You will still have your crowd of people who don't like PvP and won't do PvP and vise versa. I believe statistics show that in most games they have a higher solo/PvE population than multi/PvP. These won't change by that significant of a margin. So what if more people start PvP'ing for the "easier" gear... it gives the experienced players more to trample over.

 

I remember one other argument in this thread on afking the warzones. I'm sorry, but that is a separate issue that shouldn't be allowed regardless if expertise is in or not. That needs to be fixed and is not a valid argument against removing expertise.

I'm sorry, but I must've missed about any brilliant idea suggested here.

 

Remove gear progression from PvP? Sorry, but you just get the must-raid-or-die problem.

Yes, you did miss something, because that is not what was suggested. Here, I'll quote for you (same post, btw):

From the beginning I've said that with the deletion of Expertise BW would have to bring PvP and PvE equip on par. Which means, that any PvPer would still get WZ commendations via PvP matches and is still be able to obtain equip by spending those commendations. Only now he get's what a PvEer get's. So, obviously there would be no need whatsoever for a PvPer to do any PvE content. None at all!

Lokozar, I leave the rest to you.

[LanceCorporalDan]

Easy... you don't truely separate them. Separating them is what causes the problem in the first place that expertise is meant to solve. You can separate in looks, sure. And some of the stats can be different (certain ones may have more usefulness in PvP and vise versa), but they will stay comparable.

 

(Not aimed specifically at you ->) "But then you have everyone PvP grinding for their gear instead of Ops, etc"... no, you don't. You will still have your crowd of people who don't like PvP and won't do PvP and vise versa. I believe statistics show that in most games they have a higher solo/PvE population than multi/PvP. These won't change by that significant of a margin. So what if more people start PvP'ing for the "easier" gear... it gives the experienced players more to trample over.

 

 

Okay, My main concern was the argument of "PvP gear being able to grind."

Not that I'm really concerned one way or the other. Just curious to see how this would be implemented.

[Ren_simp]

The whole Problem with pvp gear and Bolster currently Is From bioware making partisan/conquer 63/65 instead of 69/72 By slapping a base expertise value on 69/72 pve gear it screws the system up

They need to increase the stats on partisan/conquer to that of ark/uw

[FuryoftheStars]

Okay, My main concern was the argument of "PvP gear being able to grind."

Not that I'm really concerned one way or the other. Just curious to see how this would be implemented.

 

Yeah, and while I can certainly understand some people thinking that people are going to flood to PvP for the "easier" grind of gear, the reality is that the fluctuation won't actually be all that big. Further more, if it was made a bit harder to get the WZ comms, I think that'd help some. Making it near impossible for people to afk camp a WZ and still get comms would be one way.

 

I'm not sure if WZ comms are awarded as a set number each time or not, but they shouldn't be. Just sitting around and doing nothing shouldn't award you anything. You should get a scaling number of comms dependent on how much you participated in the match. That I think would go a good way in making the grind less easy.

 

But really, there are many other games out there that have PvP and PvE coexist without the need of a separate PvP stat and they do just fine. If they can, then why can't this game? And I know someone out there is probably thinking "well, this game isn't those games... it should be different"... well, tell that to the devs in copying WoW.... Sarcasm aside, having a separate PvP stat actually introduces a couple of new problems that were detailed out a few posts ago (previous page, I think?). EDIT: Well, first post on the previous page is perfect. I quoted Lokozar and added another point to it.

Edited April 25, 2013 by FuryoftheStars

[kirorx]

I hate all this separation of PvE and PvP

 

Where are the peeps like me that enjoy both?

 

I am fine with equal gear but less stats and more horizontal armor or mix match stats or set bonuses

 

The Campaign stuff is fine for Level 55 hard modes why too they even need better gear than that is beyond me

 

I want to raid and pvp and getting new armor is cool, but I don't need to out stat the content or other players. The challenge is the fun part

[IXIJacenIXI]

 

I'm not sure if WZ comms are awarded as a set number each time or not, but they shouldn't be. Just sitting around and doing nothing shouldn't award you anything. You should get a scaling number of comms dependent on how much you participated in the match. That I think would go a good way in making the grind less easy.

 

 

The main problem with this being that in some games there are players that are actually participating, but that participation comes in the form of sitting on a node and guarding it. If no enemy is to attack that node for whatever reason then their stats will be inseparable from someone who took the time to simply walk over, stand on the node and then afk. If they die they might be kicked due to staying in the spawn point but even that could potentially be worked around by checking your monitor every couple of minutes.

 

This would also lead to encourage TDM behaviors in games such as huttball. Not everyone can interact with the ball, thus objective play can not be the defining factor for comm distribution. Basing it off of damage/heals/protection would encourage a TDM mindset. Match length would not deter an afk farmer as they would still receive the same amount. I doubt a win bonus, unless it was made to be a very large amount, would impact the ideology of an afk farmer. Unless you want to penalize the loosing side by a fairly sizable degree in terms of comms I don't see a good way of making this work. Even then, certain players may try to play and begin to believe they simply can not win, even when they try so why bother when they can get XX amount of comms for free with a loss.

 

I'm completely in agreement with you in the need to eliminate expertise, and I agree that making it harder to get the comms would help, but there has to be a real solution to this potential problems like this before you try and implement a change. You can't go into this expecting that players will not do something, because if it is even remotely possible then someone, somewhere will exploit the system. Bringing the gear on par with each other will add to the players that already do this. Again, I'm not saying this means that removing expertise should not happen. Rather we need to iron out the consequences of removing expertise. Personally I'd rather see a way to cause afk farming to result in no commendation award for the player, but once again everything I can think of had it's own flaws and such an approach may very well not be possible.

[Amyas]

I agree pvp stats suck

[lokozar]

What exactly do you suggest to do with the removal of expertise in order to go keep the world of PvE gear and PvP gear balanced and separate?

 

No separation at all. How often do I have to repeat myself? Also, see FuryoftheStars' answer.

 

I'm sorry, but I must've missed about any brilliant idea suggested here.

 

Remove gear progression from PvP? Sorry, but you just get the must-raid-or-die problem.

Give PvP the exact same gear progression found in PvE? Players will take the path of least resistance, which generally means AFK bots in warzones except during raid hours.

 

I'm sorry you didn't read the posts, so I stopped there as well. No, they won't afk warzones.

 

1. They never did.

2. There is a vote kick option in WZs. Probably you didn't know ...

3. What would be the fun for them? Stop seeing vast minorities as majorieties. No system will prevent the appearance of idiots from time to time. It's all about legit players. BW has to give us means to handle them. But that's a completely different topic. It can't be an argument to prevent an otherwise sane system.

 

Also, see FuryoftheStars' quote.

 

If people only spoke out to agree we would get no where apart from one direction, that very essence of a debate is what brings new ideas forwards and new possibiltys that were not yet seen. The fact that expertise will not be gotten away with until there is a very real solution doesnt in any way stop the point being debated.[/Quote]

 

So, you're not so sure that it will never happen after all, hm? Otherwise you wouldn't have to provide your concerns. How about skipping the hypocrisy then? Thanks.

 

Now lets see if you can actualy answer without breaking a post into a zillion bits.

 

See, if I wouldn't break you posts "into a zillion bits", the next thing you do is complain about, that I didn't give an answer to all the points you brought up. Well, but here you go. ;-)

Edited April 25, 2013 by lokozar

[AsheraII]

No separation at all. How often do I have to repeat myself? Also, see FuryoftheStars' answer.

Fury more or less admitted that he never even visited a Warzone, and we have to take his word of expertise on the matter?

I'm not sure if WZ comms are awarded as a set number each time or not

 

 

 

I'm sorry you didn't read the posts, so I stopped there as well. No, they won't afk warzones.

 

 

1. They never did.

Oh, you never played warzones either? I've seen plenty of them right before 2.0, filled with people "gearing up" for Makeb who had ran out of time to do so through operations or hard modes.

 

 

2. There is a vote kick option in WZs. Probably you didn't know ...

It works a bit different from the one in Flashpoints. Probably you didn't know. Because of that difference, few people even bother to use it. It's pointless.

3. What would be the fun for them? Stop seeing vast minorities as majorieties. No system will prevent the appearance of idiots from time to time. It's all about legit players. BW has to give us means to handle them. But that's a completely different topic. It can't be an argument to prevent an otherwise sane system.

And we don't have the means to properly handle them, so why improve specifically THEIR quality of life without a proper solution to the problem first? Cut out the segregation, and the problem will only explode, as more and more people find the mechanic a convenient means for gearing up.

 

 

Also, see FuryoftheStars' quote.

See above

 

 

So, you're not so sure that it will never happen after all, hm? Otherwise you wouldn't have to provide your concerns. How about skipping the hypocrisy then? Thanks.

You're really great at reading only half a sentence there. Shing specifically talked about there being a REAL solution. Well, guess what? There isn't a real solution in sight, and I have my doubts there will ever be either. But the possibility of some real solution coming up some time is now reason to get rid of Expertise already. Far from it. Don't throw away your old pants before you bought a new one. Similarly, get rid of expertise AFTER working out a proper solution for the means of gear progress, not before.

 

 

See, if I wouldn't break you posts "into a zillion bits", the next thing you do is complain about, that I didn't give an answer to all the points you brought up. Well, but here you go. ;-)

Returning the favor. I could've included the original quotes as well, but I charge extra for that

Edited April 25, 2013 by AsheraII

[LanceCorporalDan]

No separation at all. How often do I have to repeat myself? Also, see FuryoftheStars' answer.

 

I did ask for a repetition, I asked for an explanation.. Which Fury did provide thankfully.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, and while I can certainly understand some people thinking that people are going to flood to PvP for the "easier" grind of gear, the reality is that the fluctuation won't actually be all that big. Further more, if it was made a bit harder to get the WZ comms, I think that'd help some. Making it near impossible for people to afk camp a WZ and still get comms would be one way.

 

I'm not sure if WZ comms are awarded as a set number each time or not, but they shouldn't be. Just sitting around and doing nothing shouldn't award you anything. You should get a scaling number of comms dependent on how much you participated in the match. That I think would go a good way in making the grind less easy.

 

But really, there are many other games out there that have PvP and PvE coexist without the need of a separate PvP stat and they do just fine. If they can, then why can't this game? And I know someone out there is probably thinking "well, this game isn't those games... it should be different"... well, tell that to the devs in copying WoW.... Sarcasm aside, having a separate PvP stat actually introduces a couple of new problems that were detailed out a few posts ago (previous page, I think?). EDIT: Well, first post on the previous page is perfect. I quoted Lokozar and added another point to it.

 

 

Thanks you, I can agree with that. On the note if WZ comms. The more medals you get (from dps, tanking, healing, objectives) the more comms you will get. Also if you win a wz you will receive more WZ comms. As far as afk'ers go. I haven't seen too many in my wz's, maybe one in every eight or so? But I admit it is a problem of some other servers.

 

I wouldn't mind the gear being of equal stats though. That would allow me to be able to do more challenging PvE at least. Without havin to wait forever for a group lol.

Edited April 25, 2013 by LanceCorporalDan

[Shingara]

So, you're not so sure that it will never happen after all, hm? Otherwise you wouldn't have to provide your concerns. How about skipping the hypocrisy then? Thanks.

 

See, if I wouldn't break you posts "into a zillion bits", the next thing you do is complain about, that I didn't give an answer to all the points you brought up. Well, but here you go. ;-)

 

Im sure that expertise is here to stay until an alternative is here, and an alternative isn't remove it btw just before you get your hopes up. If you had read the rest of my post and others properly you may have understood that but as you so love to take things bit by bit just so you can take things out of context you havnt.

 

As for hypocrísy, i am not pretending to have values that do not belong, i actualy have values. These very values are the ones you are lacking as it seems you feel it incorrect to have a debate with 2 sides of the argument which make your statements about anyone else laughable. And to whit not all things are points but more of statements.

 

To these statements not one person in the 'remove expertise camp' has come up with a credible alternative to the expertise stat which is there for balance against the inflation based pve stats. As you see no matter how much they inflate pve stats expertise will always be more powerful then them in pvp situations and at the same time making ZERO impact upon pve.

 

so you, fury and others can meander about on what people do or dont do and what can sell which to whom and when your not addressing the problem, infact quite openly ignoring it like it doesnt exists, like a lion sat on your knee and your going, nice weather isnt it.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Shingara

[FuryoftheStars]

The main problem with this being that in some games there are players that are actually participating, but that participation comes in the form of sitting on a node and guarding it. If no enemy is to attack that node for whatever reason then their stats will be inseparable from someone who took the time to simply walk over, stand on the node and then afk. If they die they might be kicked due to staying in the spawn point but even that could potentially be worked around by checking your monitor every couple of minutes.

 

This would also lead to encourage TDM behaviors in games such as huttball. Not everyone can interact with the ball, thus objective play can not be the defining factor for comm distribution. Basing it off of damage/heals/protection would encourage a TDM mindset. Match length would not deter an afk farmer as they would still receive the same amount. I doubt a win bonus, unless it was made to be a very large amount, would impact the ideology of an afk farmer. Unless you want to penalize the loosing side by a fairly sizable degree in terms of comms I don't see a good way of making this work. Even then, certain players may try to play and begin to believe they simply can not win, even when they try so why bother when they can get XX amount of comms for free with a loss.

 

I'm completely in agreement with you in the need to eliminate expertise, and I agree that making it harder to get the comms would help, but there has to be a real solution to this potential problems like this before you try and implement a change. You can't go into this expecting that players will not do something, because if it is even remotely possible then someone, somewhere will exploit the system. Bringing the gear on par with each other will add to the players that already do this. Again, I'm not saying this means that removing expertise should not happen. Rather we need to iron out the consequences of removing expertise. Personally I'd rather see a way to cause afk farming to result in no commendation award for the player, but once again everything I can think of had it's own flaws and such an approach may very well not be possible.

 

Ah, I had forgotten about guarding. Thank you for pointing that out. There may be a way to track someone in the vicinity of a node and get credit that way, but it'd have to be coupled with other changes, including (but not limited to) better afk tracking, which I'll cover in a bit.

 

Also, I highlighted some lines in your last paragraph. Yes, I am fully aware of that and am in agreement there. But... this bug/exploit is not related to expertise itself (or a lack of it), it's a part of a different mechanic and so shouldn't be used as a reason why the change cannot or should not be made. It is still a bug/exploit, regardless of which way one feels on the subject, that needs to be fixed. And of course, with any new system comes new bugs/exploits. Those need to be worked through and patched up (the more before hand the better). The problem, of course, is that not any one person can see every angle and knows how to patch every hole.

 

For afk'ers, a possible solution would be lowering the afk timer for when in WZs to about 2-3 minutes and if you go afk even once, you forfeit all comms (possibly even get booted from the match). Now, in my experience so far, TOR's afk algorithm needs some massive improvements... (I get marked afk and eventually booted while clicking through and reading codexs? Or playing around with my skill tree?).

 

Now, what about those that suddenly had something come up in the middle of the match that they had to take care of? Sorry... but you're still essentially having to leave the match and if it's long enough for a 2-3 min afk timer to hit, then it's long enough to make a significant impact on the game.

 

It's the same concept behind Ops... "Sorry guys, something's come up"... then what? Ask the group if it's ok for you to afk the reward? No... you leave. Unless of course it's a 1-2 minute deal (and/or running with actual friends/guild mates) and they have no issue holding up for a couple minutes. Go ahead and try that in a WZ... ha! ("Hey everyone, hold up and stop shooting for a few moments... so-and-so just had to go afk cause his dog peed on the computer...." )

 

 

---------------------------------------------------

 

 

@Asherall: Just because I haven't participated in WZs in this game does not mean that I do not understand how PvP works. Also, even if I hadn't done any PvP/multiplayer stuff in my life, I personally am not so ignorant or stupid to where I cannot do research and learn the system. (And because I know someone may take that line out of context and harp on me about it... no, I do not think that research ("book" smarts) is a replacement for actual experience ("street" smarts), but neither is the reverse.)

 

The point being, though, that one doesn't actually have to participate (and/or have "street" smarts) to be able to grasp the basic concept of how it works. (And if anyone feels as though that there is enough to "discredit" anything that someone else says on a subject, then you have my sympathies for being so closed minded.)

[MurQueL]

As obnoxious and arrogant as OP is (which makes ya just wanna automatically disagree with all his/her points), I gotta say this idea is very enticing, for a variety of reasons.

 

One, for example, is that if you're getting the same gear with WZ comms that you'd get with other comms, it would do away with the hassle of multiple gear sets. Of course, the WZ comms path should be "longer" (more comms required to buy gear). I know this might just be me, but I just hate lugging around a whole other set and the switching of it and stuff... It's just annoying. It's not a big deal, really, but it does annoy me.

 

Another reason this could be a good thing is just simply for a more "streamlined" system. Expertise has it's place (in the current system) but it's just kinda "too convoluted". It really does feel like a "jury rigged" system to fix balance issues (whether this problem comes from WoW isn't relevant).

 

And yet another benefit I can think of off the top o' my head would be more "fluid" open world PvP situations, where PvErs forced into PvP wouldn't necessarily get their derriéres handed to them for not wearing "proper PvP gear"...

 

All that said, in the end, all this would do for me (I can only speak for myself) would basically be: "less annoyance/more streamlining" I think...

[lokozar]

Fury is right. No system is perfect and as said there inevitably will be idiots/exploiters from time to time. The thing that bothers me however is, that some people (aside from trolling and not reading) try to bring up problems that exist right now as an argument against this suggestion here. That's just an invalid way to argue.

 

Point at these problems, but be fair and aknowledge that they are here already and in no way triggered by non-existent Expertise. BW has to fix them, right, but that has nothing to do with the get-rid-of-expertise-thing. AFK players are your concern? Use the vote-kick-option. Vote-kick-option doesn't work? Wish for a fix. Vote-kick is useless as it is now? Wish for a change. Vote-kick will never be viable? Wish for a better auto-kick option. Auto-kick is BS? Bring up another solution. And so on.

 

Should be obvious that my suggestion isn't the reason for these problems, so they can't serve as an argument against it.

[IXIJacenIXI]

Fury is right. No system is perfect and as said there inevitably will be idiots/exploiters from time to time. The thing that bothers me however is, that some people (aside from trolling and not reading) try to bring up problems that exist right now as an argument against this suggestion here. That's just an invalid way to argue.

 

Point at these problems, but be fair and aknowledge that they are here already and in no way triggered by non-existent Expertise. BW has to fix them, right, but that has nothing to do with the get-rid-of-expertise-thing. AFK players are your concern? Use the vote-kick-option. Vote-kick-option doesn't work? Wish for a fix. Vote-kick is useless as it is now? Wish for a change. Vote-kick will never be viable? Wish for a better auto-kick option. Auto-kick is BS? Bring up another solution. And so on.

 

Should be obvious that my suggestion isn't the reason for these problems, so they can't serve as an argument against it.

 

The problem I stated is in the game right now and will in no way be directly caused by your suggestion. However your suggestion will increase the problem. While many PvP players may grumble about afk farming many of them see it as unavoidable and in it's current state manageable. However your solution will cause people to have a greater incentive to afk farm and that is where it can be used as a form of argument against you. People will complain about anything, and from a companies standpoint they want to cause the least amount of complaining possible while still implementing fixes/changes. Thus you can not entertain the attitude that you will respond to and refute complaints as to problems or issues your plan causes by, while brushing off arguments that your plan might cause a current problem to worsen. If someone pointed out a possible problem that might arise with your plan you would explain how that is not so by pointing out how you had provided for that occurrence. If someone points out how your plan will cause an existing problem to worsen you should once again point out what provisions you have made to combat this, or modify your current plan to eliminate/reduce the impact your plan has on this problem. Failing that you can provide a plausible solution to the current problem so that it is no longer a factor in the equation at all. Otherwise there are people who will continue to point out things such as an increase in afk farmer's as a valid problem with your solution.

 

By addressing their concerns you not only silence any further complaints about this problem but you gain a voice that may well begin agreeing with your plan. People in here generally want the same thing, a better more competitive and fair PvP environment while not hindering people who wish to engage in both types of content. You have a fair proposal but when someone sees a problem with it, that doesn't mean they are against your goal. Rather they are pointing out a flaw they see that were it removed then they would be fine with your solution. Work together to form a solution, and that goes to everyone. As fury stated,

The problem, of course, is that not any one person can see every angle and knows how to patch every hole.

however working together several people can share their point of view and work towards bettering the solution to a problem.

 

To these statements not one person in the 'remove expertise camp' has come up with a credible alternative to the expertise stat which is there for balance against the inflation based pve stats. As you see no matter how much they inflate pve stats expertise will always be more powerful then them in pvp situations and at the same time making ZERO impact upon pve.

 

I actually thought Fury's explanation of reducing the gear gap in PvE gear combined with adjusting mob stats and bringing PvP gear on par stats wise with PvE gear covered this fairly well. What problem do you see with that to keep it from working?

 

I cant be bothered to quote and do that whole thing so here, your suggestion is basically turn off expertise, give out pve gear from doing pvp equal to the best gear you can get from nightmare ops with set bonus included, Which could be ground out solo. Let me ask you are you insane.

 

If I read this correctly, your complaint is that people can grind out the equivalent top end PvP gear solo in raids. From this point of view if you call PvE gearing up soloable then you can easily call PvP gear soloable as well. Solo que to gain normal comms. Pug in groups for rated for rated comms, or convert regular comms into rated comms. I may be misunderstanding what you're saying here so please correct me if I'm wrong but I'm having trouble seeing what problems you're seeing and taking a bit of a shot in the dark with this explanation.

[lokozar]

However your suggestion will increase the problem.

 

Please ... explain ... why ...

 

If someone pointed out a possible problem that might arise with your plan you would explain how that is not so by pointing out how you had provided for that occurrence.

 

I've done that on more than one occasion. It seems to be constantly ignored though - which is a bit nagging, you know?

 

If someone points out how your plan will cause an existing problem to worsen you should once again point out what provisions you have made to combat this, or modify your current plan to eliminate/reduce the impact your plan has on this problem.

 

Keen idea, but why should I do so (again), if the person that mereley claims a problem would arise or worsen didn't explain why? See, I know how this works, you're telling me nothing new here. However, you fail to see that it isn't me who is in zugzwang. They ignore, they claim, they don't provide explanations, they troll. It's a bit one-tracked here, sorry.

 

Failing that you can provide a plausible solution to the current problem so that it is no longer a factor in the equation at all. Otherwise there are people who will continue to point out things such as an increase in afk farmer's as a valid problem with your solution.

 

No it isn't valid, because (again) it's a problem that exists right now and has nothing to do with "get rid of Expertise". It's just a sleight of hand that tries to distract from the main point. And again,... *sigh*... there is no explanation provided as to why my suggestion would worsen the situation.

 

If there was one, I would answer to it. Maybe I overlooked it? Simple quote would do the trick then.

 

By addressing their concerns you not only silence any further complaints about this problem but you gain a voice that may well begin agreeing with your plan. People in here generally want the same thing, a better more competitive and fair PvP environment while not hindering people who wish to engage in both types of content. You have a fair proposal but when someone sees a problem with it, that doesn't mean they are against your goal. Rather they are pointing out a flaw they see that were it removed then they would be fine with your solution. Work together to form a solution, and that goes to everyone. As fury stated, however working together several people can share their point of view and work towards bettering the solution to a problem.

 

That's how it should be, but to be honest, I don't think it is here. I rather get the feeling some people will defend BW no matter what. They don't seem to be open to arguments or new systems. And somehow they don't work on a suggestion but try to find every tiny bit of a problem that could arise, while not listening to the solutions. Instead they frown and stultify. That's called "deconstructive" and at this point I usually loose hope that such people intend something good. I hope you can reenact that somehow.

 

Granted, it could be just my bad English, so they maybe don't understand me correctly. Then again there seem to be others who understand me just fine. I don't know...

Edited April 25, 2013 by lokozar

[Shingara]

I actually thought Fury's explanation of reducing the gear gap in PvE gear combined with adjusting mob stats and bringing PvP gear on par stats wise with PvE gear covered this fairly well. What problem do you see with that to keep it from working?

 

 

 

If I read this correctly, your complaint is that people can grind out the equivalent top end PvP gear solo in raids. From this point of view if you call PvE gearing up soloable then you can easily call PvP gear soloable as well. Solo que to gain normal comms. Pug in groups for rated for rated comms, or convert regular comms into rated comms. I may be misunderstanding what you're saying here so please correct me if I'm wrong but I'm having trouble seeing what problems you're seeing and taking a bit of a shot in the dark with this explanation.

 

let me explain what i mean, say for example expertise is on gloves ear and offhand yes, now what stops people using the rest of the slots for top tier raiding gear, retaining there set bonus and being over power compared to people who only have low end or entry end token gear which is currently sat at lvl 53 gear.

 

The problem of balancing pvp players against pve geared players isnt fixed is it, only increased. the expertise stat is created in such a way that it can by pass the inflation based gear of pve armour, that armour increases based on the mathematical difficulty of pve enviroments. pvp gear does not nor is it required to.

 

The path of least resistance is what im talking about. if you could grind out comms that can easily purchase the top tier pve gear only obtainable from within nightmare operations etc which is the easiest way to attain that gear. The back lash from the player base would be immense, just look now at the anger of a simple coms cap and try and compare that to if they gave away pve gear like this.

 

This all comes down to maths at the end of the day, the maths is set out in such a way that pve enviroments are tuned to it, pvp is not, expertise fills the gap so the other stats do not have to.

 

Anyone that played old school wow knows that blizzard tried every which way but loose todo this without a pvp stat, its simply couldnt be tuned along side the pve progression template, the pve gear from raiding just gained to much and there is no way around it, difficulty and progression are based on higher and higher maths. they couldnt keep the pvp players from being slaughtered by raiders because of the gear gap and they couldnt close that gap by giving away the same armour to the pvp players. Thus expertise stats were born and they work.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Shingara

[Abydon]

Sounds like those in favor of getting rid of expertise are just not that good at pvp and can't get the expertise gear they want due to being so horrible. Deal with it. Nothing is perfect. They took expertise off the 50 gear like WH so stick to the 10-54 modes and you are set. Otherwise pro up or go home. Simple as that.

[LanceCorporalDan]

Sounds like those in favor of getting rid of expertise are just not that good at pvp and can't get the expertise gear they want due to being so horrible. Deal with it. Nothing is perfect. They took expertise off the 50 gear like WH so stick to the 10-54 modes and you are set. Otherwise pro up or go home. Simple as that.

 

You obviously haven't been following along..

[Abydon]

You obviously haven't been following along..

 

you may go now peasant...

[AsheraII]

Sounds like those in favor of getting rid of expertise are just not that good at pvp and can't get the expertise gear they want due to being so horrible. Deal with it. Nothing is perfect. They took expertise off the 50 gear like WH so stick to the 10-54 modes and you are set. Otherwise pro up or go home. Simple as that.

Well, anyone can get the top tier PvP gear, and that's the whole problem. Obtaining the gear doesn't require skill, only time.

PvE has the lockout system on operations to keep the pace of gear aquisition down. And that's on top of things like limited amount of drops to distribute and those drops being randomized.

 

PvP works different. A good player on the winning team can get ~150 comms for a game. A bad player on the loosing team can get stuck at maybe 25 comms. Still, that doesn't stop the bad player from playing 6 times as many warzones as the good player, and end up with the same amount of comms. And no, the bad player really doesn't need to do much to get those comms. Walk in, park yourself at a safe node, pretend to be guarding, maybe hit an enemy once in a while, and that's 4-6 very easy medals for an amount of comms that's acceptable to them. Bonus points for them if they're a sorc, since they can grind themselves some healing medals as well (without an enemy in sight!), and there will always be some dimwit who votes for the top healer without ever paying attention how that sorc got all those medals.

 

Right now, that one afk-er or half-afk-er doesn't hurt the team much. Someone has to be on guard, and everybody is glad it's not him/her. But, I've seen the last few weeks before what happens when you get more of those passive players on a team, and it's quite depressing. 4-5 people guarding a quiet node?

And they were doing that just because WH was slightly better than Tionese, and they lacked time to get themselves Columi or Rakata. Yes, lacked time, with only a few weeks befora the expansion, there was NO possibility for them to gear up entirely in PvE gear, so PvP gear was the logical option.

 

Making PvP gear the same as PvE gear, makes PvP the ideal form of progression. Get tier X from PvP in about a week and a half, snd THEN visit the place where a PvE-er normally gets that stuff. Pretty pathetic, but that's what happens. Fastest way to obtain the gear, with a guarantee that you'll get exactly what you want. Few people can say no to that offer. It certainly beats making 20 visits to maybe get the gloves of the set you're after..

[Shingara]

Well, anyone can get the top tier PvP gear, and that's the whole problem. Obtaining the gear doesn't require skill, only time.

 

How in any way is that a problem. it makes a level playing field in pvp. if you dont have the skill on that playing field the gear will mean nish.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Shingara

[LanceCorporalDan]

you may go now peasant...

 

very constructive..

[IXIJacenIXI]

Please ... explain ... why ...

 

My apologies, I thought it had been explained but that was a poor assumption of me. The premise is that even if you make it so that PvP gear takes the same amount of time to grind out as PvE it is still easy to go afk and get enough comms to earn a piece of gear that one otherwise would have had to spend the time working for. Now theoretically what would happen would be this.

 

A PvE player is not yet fully geared and wishes to improve his current set, he for whatever reason does not have the time to play through a full OP or FP, or is just in fact lazy and wants to take the easy way out. Therefore he que's for a PvP match with the intention of sitting on a node to earn commendations then goes afk. He checks back every now and then to make sure he is still on the node and is not doing anything to be auto-kicked from the match. In so doing he can, over an amount of time, gather enough commendations to get a piece of gear equivalent to what he wanted/needed for PvE and has neither lost anything in doing so nor done anything to earn such a piece of gear. Now this might not seem very appealing to the majority of players but from several people point of view they are earning free gear during time they would not have accomplished anything on the game anyhow. Your plan will make it so that a larger amount of people will benefit from afk farming thus increasing the potential amount of people who will feel a desire to afk farm. The reward gained is much larger than it currently is in the eyes of a PvE player and quite honestly costs him absolutely nothing.

 

 

 

I've done that on more than one occasion. It seems to be constantly ignored though - which is a bit nagging, you know?

 

I've seen that and it seems to be more from a issue of comprehension than anything else. (At least between you and Shing) However my issue you seemed to only brush away as if it was in no way relevant. This may just be a difference of opinion but I believe that if someone were to point out an issue that while not directly caused by your idea but does impact it then you need to reply to the impact. I understand that you didn't see how you impacted this and I hope that I explained it well enough that you do now but I hope we can agree that if the issue at hand is in any way influenced for the worse by your plan then you need to respond. Even if it is with something as simple as saying that the devs should improve the Vote-kick and possibly adding on a suggestion of how they could do this.

 

 

 

Keen idea, but why should I do so (again), if the person that mereley claims a problem would arise or worsen didn't explain why? See, I know how this works, you're telling me nothing new here. However, you fail to see that it isn't me who is in zugzwang. They ignore, they claim, they don't provide explanations, they troll. It's a bit one-tracked here, sorry.

 

Looking back I can see how you could see this, and honestly while reading through some of the comments I felt the same frustration you did as people claimed there would be problems that you and others had already explained would not be an issue because of (Insert reason). However I do honestly think the issue between you and Shing was mostly due to miss communication, because you both did seem to be saying the same thing back and forth without thinking that your statement has been addressed. That's why I approached Shing with my suggestion to what I saw as his problem and asked if that was indeed what he has an issue with. Other people in here...yes I can agree wholeheartedly when they refuse to even read the OP and see that their complaint is invalid.

 

 

 

No it isn't valid, because (again) it's a problem that exists right now and has nothing to do with "get rid of Expertise". It's just a sleight of hand that tries to distract from the main point. And again,... *sigh*... there is no explanation provided as to why my suggestion would worsen the situation.

 

If there was one, I would answer to it. Maybe I overlooked it? Simple quote would do the trick then.

Again my apologies, I hope I explained it well. If not please let me know and I will try to reword it better.

 

 

 

That's how it should be, but to be honest, I don't think it is here. I rather get the feeling some people will defend BW no matter what. They don't seem to be open to arguments or new systems. And somehow they don't work on a suggestion but try to find every tiny bit of a problem that could arise, while not listening to the solutions. Instead they frown and stultify. That's called "deconstructive" and at this point I usually loose hope that such people intend something good. I hope you can reenact that somehow.

There are people like that, both in this thread and I expect there will be more. However the fact of the matter is you have addressed their problem already. Heck you could quote your post in reply to them and show them how it has been. If it's then an issue beyond them not having read your post then they will feel obligated to point out how your solution doesn't solve it because of some flaw they may see.

 

Granted, it could be just my bad English, so they maybe don't understand me correctly. Then again there seem to be others who understand me just fine. I don't know...

 

As I said above I expect some people are having trouble understanding but to be honest you speak better English than many native speakers I know.

 

let me explain what i mean, say for example expertise is on gloves ear and offhand yes, now what stops people using the rest of the slots for top tier raiding gear, retaining there set bonus and being over power compared to people who only have low end or entry end token gear which is currently sat at lvl 53 gear.

 

The problem of balancing pvp players against pve geared players isnt fixed is it, only increased. the expertise stat is created in such a way that it can by pass the inflation based gear of pve armour, that armour increases based on the mathematical difficulty of pve enviroments. pvp gear does not nor is it required to.

 

I think I'm beginning to understand, but I'm still having a bit of trouble following so forgive me if I'm wrong again. You're saying that people who would have certain pieces of PvP and mix with pieces of PvE gear would be in a better position that people who used straight PvP gear yes? If so then Fury suggested that Bioware reduce the gap which causes the inflation in PvE gear while simultaneously adjusting PvE enemies by the same amount. The effect should be that PvE content might be changed on the surface stats wise but would retain the same basic difficulty. If you then made it so that PvP gear and PvE gear are identical in terms of stats after doing this change and adjust PvP commendation requirements for gear to come into line with the same amount of time needed to gather the PvE equivalent then neither side should feel encouraged to play anything besides their content. I do see a possible issue with making gear for PvP take longer in that people with more time to play might jump ahead of other faster but that will happen regardless. Once again I might be missing something so please point it out if I am.

 

How in any way is that a problem. it makes a level playing field in pvp. if you dont have the skill on that playing field the gear will mean nish.

This, a thousand times this. Level of gear should in no way equate to level of skill.

[Shingara]

I think I'm beginning to understand, but I'm still having a bit of trouble following so forgive me if I'm wrong again. You're saying that people who would have certain pieces of PvP and mix with pieces of PvE gear would be in a better position that people who used straight PvP gear yes? If so then Fury suggested that Bioware reduce the gap which causes the inflation in PvE gear while simultaneously adjusting PvE enemies by the same amount. The effect should be that PvE content might be changed on the surface stats wise but would retain the same basic difficulty. If you then made it so that PvP gear and PvE gear are identical in terms of stats after doing this change and adjust PvP commendation requirements for gear to come into line with the same amount of time needed to gather the PvE equivalent then neither side should feel encouraged to play anything besides their content. I do see a possible issue with making gear for PvP take longer in that people with more time to play might jump ahead of other faster but that will happen regardless. Once again I might be missing something so please point it out if I am.

 

Think of it this way, play it like a maths game, for pve content to be progressive stage one has to be lets say must be able todo 2000 damage, players be able to take on 2000 damage and healers be able to heal that 2000 damage fast enough.

 

The pve gear has to be tuned to this.

 

Stage 2 of progression is 3000, stage 3 would be 4000 and so on and so forth. So inline with the difficulty the gear in pve jumps to this difficulty so you have to work through the tiers of difficulty so it remains tiered and cant be jumped unless the developer wishes to due to lets say for example an expansion like we have with makeb and new tiers are introduced, if you remove those tiers progression is lost.

 

Pvp gear doesnt do this, it sets out gear in this stance on a just level or a small bit above entry level pve gear. This is where expertise comes in. Expertise adds to the stats without actualy increasing them in pve terms. So whilst this creates a level playing field in pvp it in no way impacts in pve because the expertise stat isnt actualy increasing the stats but is influencing them within player vs player situations.

 

So now we come to why this stat is important and why you cannot tune it to pve. A player comes in with the highest ranked pve gear into battlegrounds, that player isnt going tobe able to have an advantage due to there huge stat increase because expertise cancels it out.

 

So whilst a pvp player cannot get a leg up in pve by having expertise gear the pve player isnt going to get a lead in pvp simply because they have the highest ranking pve gear. So it makes it so that whilst both pvp and pve are relevent game styles for progression neither has to be tuned to the other. there are less balancing issues and gear is much more managable on the developers side because they arnt trying to tune for 2 enviroments.

 

if they try to tune both together thats just a major headache for the devs to say it lightly as any new tier introduced they have to retune pvp with it you see, with expertise they can ignore pvp and not have to balance the 2, anything they replace it with will have todo the same thing and if they try to do it via bolster in top lvl pvp it then removes the progression from top end pvp as whats the point.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Shingara