Stop comparing Vitiate to Palpatine...

[Beniboybling]

It's a common occurrence. I assumed that the Son was just messing with Obi-Wan's beliefs. A common theme in that arc was the attempt to dissuade others from seeing things like all Light Siders are Jedi and all Dark Siders are Sith.

 

I liked such a storyline better in KOTOR 2.

I liked it, it challenged the belief that the Jedi know everything about the Force and its nature.

[Aurbere]

I liked it, it challenged the belief that the Jedi know everything about the Force and its nature.

 

It's an interesting story, that's for sure. My favorite parts were when Vrook got what was coming to him, and Nihilus in general.

[Aurbere]

Anyone else think Vitiate's nothing more than a spoiled child? Edited July 13, 2013 by Aurbere

[Beniboybling]

It's an interesting story, that's for sure. My favorite parts were when Vrook got what was coming to him, and Nihilus in general.

I was referring to the Mortis arc, but KOTOR II is awesome too.

[Aurbere]

I was referring to the Mortis arc, but KOTOR II is awesome too.

 

Oh

 

To be honest, I think the Mortis arc had interesting concepts, but I didn't care for the execution of it. Well, maybe that's not my problem. I guess I didn't like the introduction of the Ones.

 

meh.

[Beniboybling]

Anyone else think Vitiate's nothing more than a spoiler child?

Did you mean spoiled? I think that's a little harsh, I mean its not as if his parents gave him anything lol.

 

Mommy: Go to bed now honey, that's a good little Tenebrae.

 

Tenebrae: No.

 

Mommy: awww his first wo...*force choke*

 

[Beniboybling]

Oh

 

To be honest, I think the Mortis arc had interesting concepts, but I didn't care for the execution of it. Well, maybe that's not my problem. I guess I didn't like the introduction of the Ones.

 

meh.

Really? Its one of my favourites. Mainly because of Sam Witwer's excellent acting, as always.

[Aurbere]

Did you mean spoiled? I think that's a little harsh, I mean its not as if his parents gave him anything lol.

 

Mommy: Go to bed now honey, that's a good little Tenebrae.

 

Tenebrae: No.

 

Mommy: awww his first wo...*force choke*

 

 

Just his plan makes him out to be a child.

 

 

He's gonna destroy the galaxy just so no one can stop him from doing whatever he wants? And when you confront him, he acts like a baby.

 

"I don't care! Do whatever you want."

 

 

"Screw you guys, I'm going home!"

 

Maybe I'm just being a tad cynical, but that's just how it comes off to me.

[Aurbere]

Really? Its one of my favourites. Mainly because of Sam Witwer's excellent acting, as always.

 

That's always a good thing. The episodes are fine, but I just have issues with the Ones.

[Beniboybling]

Just his plan makes him out to be a child.

 

 

He's gonna destroy the galaxy just so no one can stop him from doing whatever he wants? And when you confront him, he acts like a baby.

 

"I don't care! Do whatever you want."

"Screw you guys, I'm going home!"

 

Maybe I'm just being a tad cynical, but that's just how it comes off to me.

Not exactly, he tries to destroy the Jedi Knight and fails. Simply as.

That's always a good thing. The episodes are fine, but I just have issues with the Ones.

How so?

[Aurbere]

Not exactly, he tries to destroy the Jedi Knight and fails. Simply as.

 

Yes, but his rantings beforehand rubbed me wrong.

 

How so?

 

Doesn't matter. It's difficult to explain.

[Beniboybling]

Yes, but his rantings beforehand rubbed me wrong.

I kinda liked his speech, it possessed the suitable gravitas.

 

That said we don't know if the Sith Emperor is actually dead yet...

[Aurbere]

I kinda liked his speech, it possessed the suitable gravitas.

 

That said we don't know if the Sith Emperor is actually dead yet...

 

It was an 'alright' speech. He's got nothing on Palpatine's Death Star 2 speech.

[S_W_LeGenD]

And this is the part were we have to engage our brains.

 

What is the yes? And what is the no?

 

Yes: I use the dark side.

 

No: I don't follow Sith teachings.

 

So no, he is not a Sith, he merely answered yes and no because he does use the dark side, which in the narrow-minded view of the Jedi makes you a Sith. This is further reinforced my other instances which point to the naievity of the Jedi among other things. In particular:

 

Anakin: You're a Sith Lord!

 

Father: You have a very simple view of the universe. I am neither Sith, nor Jedi. I am much more, and so are you.

 

Anakin: I see through your spells and visions old man. Tell me what is going on here!

 

Father: Some call us Force wielders.

Sir,

 

Jedi and Sith are just philosophies; Force-user is the focal point regardless of alignments.

 

For example:-

 

 

The Sith Emperor, history's most powerful dark side master, performed a ritual of incredible scope to consume the life energy of every being on his homeworld. (SWTORE, Page 148)

 

 

Notice any key statement in the above spoiler? It is "dark side master."

 

Sith Emperor is just a label to represent Vitiate's philosophical alignment. This statement implies that Vitiate became the most powerful dark side master in history (assuming all other dark side masters that predated him). Abeloth is also part of this history since she is much older and also a dark side master; she was introduced earlier then Vitiate to the mythos by the way.

 

When Force-users gathered on Tython more then 25000 years ago (from latest event in Star Wars mythos till date), some embraced the light side and some dark side or possibly both. Those who embraced the light side declared themselves Jedi but considered the other bunch as heretics or such; the dark side practitioners were also logically Dark Jedi. Thus began the Force Wars which led to Dark Jedi fleeing Tython; the Dark Jedi discovered Korriban and founded the Sith philosophy in response after meeting the Sith species.

 

Vitiate was not restricted to Sith philosophy by the way; he thought beyond it and his actions and ultimate plan is proof of this. He didn't care about Sith and Jedi alike; he created a Sith Empire but left it to the Dark Council to run it. He did control his Empire but spent most of his time exploring the dark side to plot his ascension to a level unthinkable for a sentient being. Vitiate was logically more of a "dark side master" much like The Son..

 

Canonically, Vitiate acquired the following accolades:-

 

1. Most most powerful Sith Lord (ever)

 

2. Most powerful "dark side master" in history which includes Celestials.

 

3. Most dominating Force-user the Galaxy has (ever) seen.

 

Therefore, Vitiate is perceived as more then a Sith Lord in canon. Situation is more complicated with Vitiate's respective standing in the mythos then you and few others realize.

 

Note here how the Father says he is not a Sith or a Jedi, and then refers to himself and his children as 'Force wielders' indicating that they are not Jedi or Sith either. No, the Son is the embodiement of the dark side - not Sith.

 

And then we have this:

 

Anakin: You must know, I will never join the dark side willingly.

 

The Son: How simple you make, light and dark, as if there were one without the other. Aligned, you and I can restore balance wherever we go. Peace to the universe.

 

Anakin: By becoming a Sith. Never!

 

The Son: We will destroy the Sith, and the Jedi!

 

Note here that again the Son highlights the dark side willingly and indirectly states he is not Sith. Else why would he respond to Anakin's statement that joining the Son would be joining the Sith by saying he would destroy them?

 

But regardless, you are simply wrong. In order to be Sith you have to follow Sith teachings. Clearly the Son did not. He is not Sith I'm afraid and Darth Sidious remains undisputed.

 

And what is it with your angst against the past? Since when does something being old make it redundant, I never got that memo...

It seems like you didn't concentrate properly on canonical revelations about Vitiate.

 

Check this information:

 

 

Over 300 years ago, the great Jedi heroes Revan and Malak stumbled upon long-hidden Sith Empire's capital of Dromund Kaas, and its ruler - a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side. They argued briefly over whether to alert the Republic and Jedi Council, but Revan was already too consumed by arrogance and anger to consider the possibility of defeat. By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already at the precipice of the dark side. It took only a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War. (SWTORE, Page 89)

 

 

What does it reveals?

 

"a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side"

 

Also, what do you think Vitiate was planning to do?

 

 

Lord Scourge's reveals the Emperor's true goal for the war: to complete a Sith ritual that will grant him unlimited power and immortality by eradicating all life in the galaxy. (SWTORE, Page 93)

 

 

You realize that Vitiate was going to eradicate all life in the Galaxy? He became so powerful and could harness dark side power of such a scale and that it is futile to argue against his power. Sidious fans are grasping on straws.

Edited July 13, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Aurbere]

Sidious became so powerful and could harness dark side power of such a scale and that it is futile to argue against his power. Vitiate fans are grasping on straws.

 

That's what you meant to say, right? I mean, it is true. I could throw sources that are just as valid, and you would throw the 'time' argument out... again.

 

Why don't you go on Leland Chee's Twitter and ask him who the most powerful Sith Lord is. The answer won't surprise anyone. Well, it will surpirse you, but that's OK. It happens.

[S_W_LeGenD]

I remember an interview with George talking about how he tells them who can do what, and all of the specific things like vehicles and such.

 

Also, I kinda prefer George to be in charge of the creative aspects.

Well, of-course, GL is a the right man to consult to learn about the "ground realities" of Star Wars mythos. This doesn't mean that Disney Administration cannot/will not make decisions excluding him. Also, this doesn't suggests that GL told them to treat Sidious as the most powerful dark side master.

 

The difference is, Vitiate's a normal person (as normal as he can be). The Son is an ancient representation of the Dark Side. They aren't the same.

 

But what does the Son say after "Yes, and no" ?

You are terribly wrong: Vitiate is not a normal person.

 

Vitiate became an entity after his transformation. He cannot be killed; he can only be contained by trapping his essence. Sidious also acquired similar condition.

[Aurbere]

You are terribly wrong: Vitiate is not a normal person.

 

Vitiate became an entity after his transformation. He cannot be killed; he can only be contained by trapping his essence. Sidious also acquired similar condition.

 

Notice I said "as normal as he can be." He's not an entity on the scale of The Son.

[Beniboybling]

Funny how you chose to ignore the important stuff i.e. post #196 - but I assume you will be addressing that shortly.

 

The Son is not Sith, at least we have established that. He's not a Force user either, he's beyond that. He is an incarnation of the dark side itself, a god. He transcends the physical plane of existence therefore he cannot be compared with beings who exist on the physical plane i.e. Darth Sidious and the Sith Emperor. So when statements are made saying that Vitiate is "history's most powerful dark side master" and Sidious is "the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power" we cannot use that to claim that either of them are more powerful than the Son. Especially given the fact that the majority of these statements are prefixed with the word 'galaxy' or 'history' - yet the Son transcends the galaxy and its historical occurrences, he exists in an entirely separate reality and plane of existence.

 

Now I see that you are very much impressed by the Sith Emperor being perceived by Revan and Malak as a "god-like avatar of the dark side" but we have to remember that firstly, this is an opinion based on personal experience, and secondly, that Sidious has been percieved in similar ways:

 

To most eyes the man in those simple robes of rough cloth was unremarkable, just another being making his way in the universe. But to those who could feel the Force he was anything but ordinary. To them, he was a dark sun blazing with power that was simultaneously hypnotizing and terrifying to behold.

 

=============

 

And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness. A black hole of the Force.

 

Obviously these shouldn't be taken literally, but it does show that both the Sith Emperor and Darth Sidious were perceived as God-like entities. That said the supposed 'avatar of the dark side' that is the Sith Emperor was killed by a lone Jedi Knight at the center of a dark side nexus.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Did you not read the beginning of this thread? The latest sources are all there. Allow me to refresh your memory:

See below.

 

Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.

 

--Taken from Vader: The Ultimate Guide

Released in 2005.

 

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.

 

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

Re-released a month before SWTOR Encyclopedia.

 

When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history. "Rob Coleman wanted Yoda to feel the power of his enemy," says Wheless, "like a force he's never dealt with before."

 

--Taken from Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm

Released in 2006.

 

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.

 

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Released in 2008.

 

FYI: This sources does contradicts Luke's respective standing in the mythos.

 

Please point me to the superseding editions of these particular texts, that emit this information. I think you'll find that as of yet none of them have been updated. I would point out however that the The Complete Visual Dictionary was rereleased in 2012 - post-SWTOR - indicating this fact still holds sway. And will do until these specific texts are updated.

This source only represents PT/OT era(s), if I am not wrong. Also, it was re-released a month earlier then SWTOR Encyclopedia; it doesn't overrules information in the SWTOR Encyclopedia by virtue of being released earlier.

 

You see, what your doing here is looking at texts that as far as I'm aware have never made comment on who is the most powerful Force user ever and assuming, because they do not, that this is a disputable case. I'm afraid you cannot do that, look to the latest editions of the above texts and you will find that you are mistaken, about a great many things.

I am not mistaken about a may great things; some people want to/still do impersonate GL unfortunately when it comes to validity of canon materials.

 

Notice I said "as normal as he can be." He's not an entity on the scale of The Son.

The Son is more vulnerable then Vitiate actually; their is a dagger (a special weapon) which can be used to kill him. Vitiate cannot be killed in similar manner; only way to put him out is by trapping his essence in the void forever or something similar. Your argument is useless.

Edited July 13, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Aurbere]

I knew it! There's the whole 'time' argument again. This is getting really tedious. Why can't people accept G-canon and get over it.

[Beniboybling]

OK, now please point me to the statement that says that texts published later are not overruled by texts published before them if there is a conflict between the two.

 

I'm afraid this is not the case, it is an assumption made by you.

[S_W_LeGenD]

I knew it! There's the whole 'time' argument again. This is getting really tedious. Why can't people accept G-canon and get over it.

Star Wars is much bigger then just G-canon content/information now. Why cant people respect all of the canon and get over it?

Edited July 13, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Beniboybling]

Released in 2008.

 

FYI: This sources does contradicts Luke's respective standing in the mythos.

No it doesn't because like the statement regarding the Sith Emperor, it is only refers to the universe up until that point, not afterwards.

[S_W_LeGenD]

No it doesn't because like the statement regarding the Sith Emperor, it is only refers to the universe up until that point, not afterwards.

Your interpretation is wrong.

 

"a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides."

 

No use of word history here.

[Beniboybling]

Issue is that Star Wars is much bigger then just G-canon now. The content have introduced more insanely powerful dark side masters then just Sidious. People should roll with the latest information instead of wanking GL creations all the time.

If Vitiate was evidently more powerful than Sidious you might have a small point, but he isn't.

 

Come back to me when you have proof that Vitiate mastered the Force storm.

 

And just because there is more to Star Wars than GL creations doesn't mean we should disregard them. Those creations are the foundations on which everything has stemmed from, and should be respected as such. Likewise Sidious' standing in the Star Wars universe should be respected, such things don't just 'change'.