Absolutely Unacceptable!

[jgoldsack]

I read PVP zones as real world.. meaning, no bolster of any kind, ever. There, expertise was kind of important.

 

Then one needs to acquire the 55 pvp gear to get the expertise they so want.

 

Expertise is for max level only.

[scraycroft]

IMO its this kind of Elitist PVp player attitude that keeps and has kept many players , like myself, away from even playing that part of the game.

 

There is a learning curve and people with these changes are trying something they maybe hadn't before because of the changes have made PvP more inviting and less intimidating.

 

Instead of Criticizing people for trying something they hadn't previously, maybe take the hard road and help the new players learn how to play pvp properly.

 

People like myself have jobs and lives...and precious little time to game, grind gear and learn all the intricacies of pvp gameplay and our roles, and when some people have tried in the past the "experts" hopped on players like a bunch of raging vultures and made them feel unwelcomed and useless.

 

These changes are opening PVp up to new persons like myself and MANY others and making pvp more accessible, i'm sorry if it bothers the "expert" players that their domain is now being apparently over run by noobs...but people have to start somewhere and if you want "noobs" (which everyone was at some point in time anyways)to be better players..then help them be better players.

 

That's why I make a point of playing at least 2-3 warzones every time I gain a level on a new toon. You need to learn to play your class by the time you hit the upper ranks. Its like trying to learn your class in a NiM Op, of course the "elitists" will bash you if you don't know what you're doing.

[Ovanmaru]

We have seen the argument of Skill vs. Gear throughout the existence of MMO PvP and we are of the opinion both are good for an RPG, falling on one side of the scale (gear has no purpose in PvP vs. gear is the only thing that matters in PvP) is not desirable. It is a balance act, sometimes it will slide too far on one side or the other and we will correct it but this methodology, the balance between skill vs. gear, will result in the most healthy PvP game and community possible for the long term.

^taken from the mod at this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6144955&postcount=776

 

This is quite possibly the most honest and agreeable statement any MMO employee has ever posted on a forum. While I would NEVER want to see SWTOR's pvp system go back to the way it was...I would also prefer that it didn't turn into another casual GW2 game (where there was NOTHING to work for but cosmetic items).

 

Come to think of it...this reminds me of how Bioware makes moral choices!

 

Light Side - Remove all differences in PvP gear and make everyone naked!

-->Grey Jedi - Balance PvP so that gear is not useless, but still worth earning.

Dark Side - Go back to SWTOR pre 2.0

Edited April 16, 2013 by Ovanmaru

[Thundergulch]

Funny.... I always thought that PvP were about the serious competition between players,

then tell me why 99% of pvp'ers always look for an exploit or cheat to get the advantage? aka naked bolster, or countless other ways.

[jgoldsack]

then tell me why 99% of pvp'ers always look for an exploit or cheat to get the advantage? aka naked bolster, or countless other ways.

 

Nice generalization. Naked bolster was used to level the playing field because it was bugged if you used PvP gear. I am glad they fixed it somewhat, but it is still not totally fixed. any gear that has expertise is still gimping yourself to wear.

 

Far fewer players cheat or exploit in pvp than you might think. They just get the most attention for it. BAD players have to cheat to win.

[Andryah]

I personally like the changes.

 

I have all the EWH gear so I "worked" for it also... but ultimately the matches seem more fair. We can stand against a premade with a pug, not all the times but sometimes.

 

I prefer pvp to be about skills, teamwork and strategy.

 

/Signed and /Sponsored.

 

There are plenty of other MMOs that run PvP as a gear check for those that must hide behind gear rather then teamwork, skillz, and gear working in harmony.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Andryah

[-Wes-]

These changes are opening PVp up to new persons like myself and MANY others and making pvp more accessible, i'm sorry if it bothers the "expert" players that their domain is now being apparently over run by noobs...but people have to start somewhere and if you want "noobs" (which everyone was at some point in time anyways)to be better players..then help them be better players.

 

I agree with the quoted portion of your post, for sure. I think the recent changes definitely opened up warzones to a larger audience. That said, I don't think the post to which you responded was elitist at all. It was quite factual, rather. Tactics make ALL the difference in a warzone, and you have to work together as a team in order to have any hope of emerging victorious, or even being successful in attempting to compete (regardless of win or lose).

 

I, being a very new PvP player (about five days, a couple matches a day, now), rely on experienced players to lead the way, familiarize the rest of us with the zones, and offer feedback. In two matches of Voidstar this morning, which were my second/third interactions with that zone, we got squished the first time through because our team just didn't work together, and the second time managed to win by ever so slim a margin! The teams were almost the same composition of players both times (they were back-to-back zones); the biggest difference was that the second time we had someone there who knew the area and took the time to call shots. While the Imps played very well both times, we actually came with a strategy the second time through and it made just enough difference.

[StrEdgeViper]

Read this post

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6144955&postcount=776

 

Im upset....do they not realize that some of us use other gear like, champion, centurion, or recruit....BECAUSE IT DOESNT LOOK CRAP....even if they are not as good as war hero, i honestly cant take them off because the new gear just looks terrible. I am a sith sorcerer and as much as i want good stats....i really dnt like tht the gear they release doesnt have a very good asthetic appeal...something like centurion to me defines what the best looking gear was for a srocer....everything post has looked worse and worse...and to punish those who also care about appearance rather than just stat-whoring makes me feel like you are forcing us to wear clothes we despise....they really should have brought these improvments to a more variety of gear...centurion is moddable so fine maybe not there...but champion/recruit/mk-2 are nto moddable...and even if they become slightly less....they look better IMO than any new gear for sorcerers...and now im condemed to have terrible pvp just because i wanna wear clothing that i actually like... sigh

[branmakmuffin]

Yes it's fun, but it's fun because you receive something tangible for your effort.

You must be using "tangible" in way I wasn't previously aware of.

[LarenDahe]

It occurs to me that people with actual skill at pvp wouldn't be complaining. I suppose it must be a real downer to find out that you weren't awesome and it was just your abundance of time spent grinding for gear that let you think you were some sort of pvp superstar.

 

Personally when I'm in pvp I prefer to know it's my knowledge and skill with my class verses the other person's skill with their class. Then again I can understand some people can't handle the fact that if they lose it's now their fault and not "Oh, this person had better gear than me!"

 

I feel a bit like Cartman with Scott Tenorman reading this thread, your tears, they're so delicious.

Edited April 16, 2013 by LarenDahe

[dscount]

Fully agree with you, pal. Finally having equal matches between pugs and premades seems like won't be a dream anymore.

 

And of course, a nightmare for those who solely relied on full EWH gear.

 

BINGO! The Tweaked EWH premade groups might be on slightly more level playing ground against PUGS. Skill and communication will be the key going forward. (As it should be)

 

I was absolutely against this change at first. Seeing the outcome now and some of the feedback I'm starting to appreciate the change.

 

SUCKS that all my WH/EWH gear is frankly crap gear now since my PVE gear is way better. I'm totally happy that I don't really need two sets of gear now (Short Term).

[SpearlikeAtom]

You're completely missing the point. Not unexpected.

 

Next!

 

No, I think you are. It's a game. No hard work was put in to achieve anything here.

[dscount]

That's why I make a point of playing at least 2-3 warzones every time I gain a level on a new toon. You need to learn to play your class by the time you hit the upper ranks. Its like trying to learn your class in a NiM Op, of course the "elitists" will bash you if you don't know what you're doing.

 

Totally true! GM of our guild stated that once and I took him up on the suggestion. Want to learn your class to the best of your ability? Then PVP that toon as you level up. You quickly learn all the tricks and tips to use to keep alive. PVP is slightly more difficult as you are going against real thinking people instead of pre-programmed AI MOB/BOSS fights. Except the LOLSmashers.. .they think "HULK SMASH" button only... I know shameless plug..

[Caeasar]

You must be using "tangible" in way I wasn't previously aware of.

 

Let me help you; Taken from Webster's on-line dictionary, 3rd description:

 

: capable of being appraised at an actual or approximate value <tangible assets>

 

Let me know if you need further help.

[ozrique]

I would like to make a small comparison between the sport I actively practice, and the current PVP situation.

 

I am a runner. When I don’t work or play SWTOR, I dedicate all my time towards getting better at running. My current aim is to run 10 kilometers under 40 minutes, and I am pretty damn close. I have put endless of hours into achieving this personal goal, and last year alone I logged over 2400 km and nearly 200 hours of training. Even though I consider myself pretty mediocre in the sport, my aim is still to become a better competitive runner; of course it is nice to beat my friends, but the real goal is to beat my own times.

 

PVP in SWTOR got me hooked pretty much straight away. The last time I had a feeling for a game was probably when me and my mates played Duke Nukem (that was a long time ago) and at first I was actually scared to enter a WZ because of my lack of skill. I got lolraped plenty a time, well I still do (quite often) - but here’s the kicker: I want to outshine myself all the time. In one way, practice makes me better (accumulated time spent practicing) but the real deal is the reaped benefits of the practice (better gear).

 

The situation now, as I see it of course, is that one can practice bowling (ok it’s a bad comparison, sorry PVE’rs but hey you get the idea) for 200 hours and still beat me in a 10K race. PVP is competitive, and if you put endless of hours (which many of us have) you ought to be able to reap great benefits from it.

 

This has been put into a number of posts earlier, but I figured I had to write this as I feel quite disappointed with the current PVP situation.

 

None the less, thank you developers for a great game.

[Kilora]

I would like to make a small comparison between the sport I actively practice, and the current PVP situation.

 

I am a runner. When I don’t work or play SWTOR, I dedicate all my time towards getting better at running. My current aim is to run 10 kilometers under 40 minutes, and I am pretty damn close. I have put endless of hours into achieving this personal goal, and last year alone I logged over 2400 km and nearly 200 hours of training. Even though I consider myself pretty mediocre in the sport, my aim is still to become a better competitive runner; of course it is nice to beat my friends, but the real goal is to beat my own times.

 

PVP in SWTOR got me hooked pretty much straight away. The last time I had a feeling for a game was probably when me and my mates played Duke Nukem (that was a long time ago) and at first I was actually scared to enter a WZ because of my lack of skill. I got lolraped plenty a time, well I still do (quite often) - but here’s the kicker: I want to outshine myself all the time. In one way, practice makes me better (accumulated time spent practicing) but the real deal is the reaped benefits of the practice (better gear).

 

The situation now, as I see it of course, is that one can practice bowling (ok it’s a bad comparison, sorry PVE’rs but hey you get the idea) for 200 hours and still beat me in a 10K race. PVP is competitive, and if you put endless of hours (which many of us have) you ought to be able to reap great benefits from it.

 

This has been put into a number of posts earlier, but I figured I had to write this as I feel quite disappointed with the current PVP situation.

 

None the less, thank you developers for a great game.

 

 

I think you missed the mark on this one.

 

PvP is now a skill check, NOT a gear-check. You'll still reap gear rewards from "grinding" time, but you will never be able to rely solely on gear. THAT was moronic.

 

So, trying to bring this to running. You practice daily, and work very hard. You read up on anything that may help, and hone your skills.

 

How would you feel if I never ran a day in my life, but put on a pair of shoes that were better than yours and could beat you easily? IMO that seems like a much closer analogy.

 

In fact -- now that it is focused a little more on a skill check, the endless hours you put into it will matter MORE. When a new expac comes out, your gear will be worthless -- but all the skills and techniques you learned will carry over and continue to grow.

[Starglitter]

Mmm...

 

Here is the thing were things get a bit cloudy, and it is more of a personal philosophy than anything else.

 

In many games, I actually view PvP as the actual "end-game" state. That said, it is the battle against another intelligent and crafty player that makes the battles rememberable.

 

As the vikings used to believe, a good fight was one fought against a worthy opponent, thus a victory is worth celebrating. Where is the glory in defeating a substantially under-equipped player? Is that really memorable?

 

We all know the answer to that, and lets not be coy about it.

 

So if PvP is about the challenge, then for it to be meaningful it has to be sporting, thus all things equal.

 

It seems to me, that the ultimate gear should be readily available, after all where is the glory in defeating someone with inferior gear? Where is the glory in a formula car, out racing a kid on a tricycle?

 

Now on the other hand.... The other side of the coin....

 

If getting that gear, the ultimate gear was a royal pain in the rear to acquire, one would figure that it would only be fair that other players should work equally hard to attain it. After all its only fair.

 

So we are back to the dilemma, should gear be easily attainable, despite that some ealier players paid dearly for it?

 

If the answer to the question is: No

 

Then we are damned to many mediocre battles that are not worth remembering. Perhaps litle children who enjoy bullying the weak and tiny, gets a kick out of it, but really, are we not better than this?

 

If the answer to the question is: Yes

 

Then there must be an expedient way for folks to gain the gear while also lerning the ropes, after all its not the gear that makes the man.

 

Hugs

 

Sue

[ozrique]

PvP is now a skill check, NOT a gear-check. You'll still reap gear rewards from "grinding" time, but you will never be able to rely solely on gear. THAT was moronic.

 

No player can rely solely on his gear - but the gear should be an advantage. I might have misinterpreted this, but from what I understand, PVE gear can be even better than PVP gear at this stage?

 

How would you feel if I never ran a day in my life, but put on a pair of shoes that were better than yours and could beat you easily? IMO that seems like a much closer analogy.

 

You couldn't, and you were not able to buy them in the first place.

That's what I meant, a lot of people put deep concentration and focused solely on PVP in this game discarding the rest.

I respect that you might view the situation differently, but these are my thoughts and my opinion.

[Kilora]

No player can rely solely on his gear - but the gear should be an advantage. I might have misinterpreted this, but from what I understand, PVE gear can be even better than PVP gear at this stage?

 

 

You couldn't, and you were not able to buy them in the first place.

That's what I meant, a lot of people put deep concentration and focused solely on PVP in this game discarding the rest.

I respect that you might view the situation differently, but these are my thoughts and my opinion.

 

Gear does still have an advantage. The 55 PvP gear has expertise that does NOT count towards the stat pool for the piece of gear.

 

55 PvE gear is NOT bolstered -- meaning, I may have more of my primary stat, but I have almost no expertise, so it is significantly less effective.

 

The point is -- bad PvP players could sneak their way through, deck themselves out in EWH and beat-down on everyone reguardless of skill. Now, that isn't as possible.

 

If you take 2 evenly "skilled" PvPers of the same class, the one with PvP gear will win. That's enough of a difference to make the PvP gear worthwile. We're also not talking about rated gear -- Hardcore PvPers shouldn't be complaining about the non-rated gear being "too low". Maybe they should work on getting the rated gear up.

 

There's a balance here -- and I think they're getting closer and closer to it. Gear should give you a slight advantage -- at least when not talking about ranked gear. Ranked gear should give you more of an advantage -- but still not enough to completely carry 7 other players in a non-rated WZ.

 

PvE gear doesn't work like that. In full Hazmat, one person couldn't carry an entire ops group through a single piece of content.

 

In other words, I think the balance they're aiming for is:

 

No gear + no skill = could have a chance with a skilled team, or against an unskilled team.

 

No gear + skill = decent chance, depending on skill.

 

Gear + no skill = decent chance, depending on skill.

 

Gear + skill = great chance, but not unstoppable.

[chuixupu]

This seems to be the "going experiment" at the time....who knows, it may make everything more fun than before, or they may change it again. WoW recently made a similar decision, and has received the same response. Sometimes people just fear change. As someone who used to do rated battlegrounds competitively, it became frustrating at a point where no matter how coordinated you were with your team, you got to a certain rating bracket and everyone had the best gear, and it was difficult to beat them to get your rating high enough to get their gear. Not impossible, but always an uphill battle.

[scraycroft]

I think you missed the mark on this one.

 

PvP is now a skill check, NOT a gear-check. You'll still reap gear rewards from "grinding" time, but you will never be able to rely solely on gear. THAT was moronic.

 

So, trying to bring this to running. You practice daily, and work very hard. You read up on anything that may help, and hone your skills.

 

How would you feel if I never ran a day in my life, but put on a pair of shoes that were better than yours and could beat you easily? IMO that seems like a much closer analogy.

 

In fact -- now that it is focused a little more on a skill check, the endless hours you put into it will matter MORE. When a new expac comes out, your gear will be worthless -- but all the skills and techniques you learned will carry over and continue to grow.

 

 

Damn, that's a perfect analogy.

[SystemProcess]

From what I understand bolster didn't work with the level 50 expertise gear, and thus they removed the expertise to make bolster work properly.

 

Meaning, your 50 pvp gear does work at 55 pvp because bolster gives you the expertise you need. Getting the NEW pvp gear will give you a bit of an edge over that.

 

The current intended lineup of gear for 55 pvp is: WH > EWH > PART > CONQ. As stated by the devs.

[branmakmuffin]

Let me help you; Taken from Webster's on-line dictionary, 3rd description:

 

: capable of being appraised at an actual or approximate value <tangible assets>

 

Let me know if you need further help.

So what is the actual or approximate value of this "tangible" expertise gear? Long gone are the days when you can sell (without violating EULAs) an MMO's in-game assets for real money.

[Uvirith]

Breaking News:

 

mmorg-Addon makes obtained Gear obsolete! A worlds first! Call the police!

[midianlord]

No, I think you are. It's a game. No hard work was put in to achieve anything here.

 

Again, wrong:

 

If you define hard work as, say driving the big truck 1100km in one go to make that "hot" delivery that five people have been screaming in your ear on the phone about over the last three days, then no, it's not work at all.

 

But refer to my core premise:

 

My time is not value-less.

 

I put in the time to earn that gear, and my "payment" for same was that I spent a looooot of time analysing --in minute detail-- the décor of the re-spawn area. It's simple human nature to be a little less than amused when someone throws all that away by fiat, and makes you start all over again. I get enough of that being a trucker IRL, believe me, I would like a clean, even if only temporary, break from it in something I do for fun.

 

I've said it before:

 

A simple solution to this would be to allow a partial trade in of WH/EWH pieces for Partisan, especially when you consider how quickly it takes to get to the WZ comms cap, and that the cap isn't enough for more than two major pieces. Or just flip the existing caps around: WZ goes to 4,500 and RWZ comms to 2,750.

 

Do this, and maybe at least us Arsen-Mercs* who have actually taken the effort to learn what our class --and more importantly, what we-- can/cannot do whilst getting ROFLstomped constantly by...well, everyone, because after all "Merc = free kill," right? (Not my Arsen-merc, bru. Not anymore, and not by a frigging long-shot! Because I put in the time, see above.) wouldn't feel like we just got surprise-buggered without so much as a courtesy reach-around.

 

*(I don't discount the possibility that I may be a closeted masochist, either, just by the bye. Yes I love my Arsen-merc all the more in PvP because of his flaws.)