Honest opinion on the classes I play in 2.0

[biowareftw]

Pot5 server

 

Sniper (deathjester) - This class is good. Really good. I think the see stealth thing needs to go however. This class is a super hard counter to jk/sw melee. The see stealth thing negates a big part of this classes counter. It is way too easy to put your back to a wall/object and throw a dot on a scoundrel/op to completely screw them over. Other then that, yes it is a strong class, and yes it has counters (provided this idiotic see stealth thing goes). It might also prevent people from flocking to the MM tree, over other trees. MM with the see stealth thing? Is just too good. If you don't remove it completely, perhaps you could put the see stealth ability in engineering or lethality. Engineering is a lot of fun btw, for those who haven't tried it. Another option might be making the cone like 10 yards max. I still think the better solution is to get rid of the skill all together though. They didn't need this. It screws over one class and one class only and that class is already weaker then the other stealth class (will get into this later).

 

Marauder (Bruce-campbell)- I have tried all three specs. Carnage seems fine for GROUP play, rage is fine and I am glad it has such a hard counter now, because the bad players will quit the class (too populated). Annihilation. I can often do well with this spec but it has some problems. Everyone got more mobility and this spec got nothing. I don't see even the die hard annihilation people playing it in 2.0. Carnage furthered the gap in group play (30 stack out of combat/80 percent speed), and rage is still a great solo spec. Dot protection or a speed buff proc, something. This spec needs a little love. I know there is a lot of marauder/sent hate (how can you say a spec needs buffed when marauders/sents are so good), but I am thinking this spec can be improved with time. It doesn't need to be immediate or anything. Fix other classes first.

 

Scoundrel (Liu-kang). Scrapper is getting better (dmg is fine), but still a poor mans sin/shadow (which i also play and will review). Healing anyone else, is worthless due to self kiting/needing energy for rolls. Shadow can taunt (which is HUGE). Scoundrel is tied to their opener (getting rid of the new sniper talent would help this class), shadow is not. My shadow gets 12 seconds of 25 percent less dmg out of stealth (back to back blackout), not including dmg reduction talents that scrapper scoundrel doesn't have. Shield probe on a scoundrel? Sucks. Recuperate was made a 2 min cooldown. Why? This only helps in 1 v 's which they were fine in, except against shadow. This class now has LESS staying power then it did pre 2.0. Also why the hell does my backblast hit for 3 k less then my shadow strike (maul) when it is on a freakin 12 second cooldown. I see ZERO reason to play this class over a shadow atm. You are never going to get the opener on a shadow (with half a brain) and they clownstomp you out of stealth. You can't go immune to their breach/project that can hit for half your life, but they can go immune to everything you do. When one stealth class completely counters the other AND beats everything else 1 v 1? There is a problem.

 

Shadow (Bruce-Lee)

 

This class is OP. Do I love it? Yeah this class is a freaking BLAST to play and was before 2.0. It is my current favorite class to play. Maul/shadowstrike needs toned down though. It is hitting WAY too hard. As far as the "cloth" defense? No this class is not cloth. This class has 25 percent mitigation for 12 seconds coming out of stealth, with other dmg reduction talents that make it BETTER then medium armor (reduction against ALL damage). My last few games on my shadow I haven't died...at all. This was while leading dmg, or taking on 2 people at a time and killing them with ease. Operatives? They can't even damage me before they are gunned down. If they vanish, i am pushing them out. IF they go immune to maul, I kill them with spells that burst as hard as a shoot first/backblast.

 

An even BIGGER problem I see is maul hitting this hard with a 12/31/3 spec (take defensive crap so force running out isn't as much of an issue). This spec can burst harder then a freakin operative/scoundrel in TANK STANCE, while having root removal on their sprint and 5 second immunity to force/tech. The mitigation is also just silly for how much damage the spec can put out. Blackout simply shouldn't work with this spec and should be tied to shadow technique.

 

How to fix it. Scoundrel/op needs SOMETHING to make the shadow/op fight even remotely close. Otherwise one stealth class is completely useless. If shadow pve dmg is too low? I don't know. Make Shadow technique proc more. All I know is maul is hitting way too freakin hard. I tried to play it off like maybe this isn't op, but it is. The difference between my scoundrel and shadow is night and day. My scoundrel feels almost useless compared to my shadow.

 

Other classes. All the other classes are putting up some very nice damage. It "feels" like sorc/sage healing is a little too strong compared to the others (in a group setting), but it is probably a bit too early to tell.

 

Anyways feel free to hate. I will be solo queuing on Pot5 tonight.

Edited April 13, 2013 by biowareftw

[skotish]

This is better stuff that I usually expect from you *gives cookie *

[Caeliux]

I know me and you had a heated debate about Watchman pre 2.0, but I actually am doing really well with it since the Bolster revamp.

 

It for me handles healers way better than combat, if Bioware would add maybe a few more touches Watchman would be darn right amazing!

 

Something needs added and I can't put my finger on it yet.

 

Also Sage Balance is amazing right now, I almost do 600k and up each match and blow people apart.

Edited April 13, 2013 by Caeliux

[TonyDragonflame]

Yes, I agree with every point. My little infiltration shadow in half-nude wh aug yesterday crits 9-9.5 k with spinning strike (and normally 5-6 k spam shadow strike, project), and always top 1-2 into damage scoreboard.

 

My half-nude scrapper scoundrel now opens with 6.5-7.5 k crits, what also pretty nice, and also in top 3 of damage.

 

However, my half-nude min/max ewh vanguard seems quite weak now, cuz thermal detonator pure crap and provide no burst. Pre 2.0 I was always in top 1-2 into damage scoreboard, now only 2-4 what is not good.

 

Focus guardian and focus sentinel are not bad, but seems not OP now. Sentinel as always 1-2 into damage scoreboard, together now with shadows. Guardian seems a bit less, but better than vanguard.

 

I notice what mercs and commandos can make good dps numbers, and sorcs too.

[ronniehenlau]

Very nice post, thumbs up!

 

Makes me sad seeing that shadows are so far ahead of scrappers/operatives though. Have you tried lethality by any chance? Someone my server was doing amazing damage with it as an operative with it.

 

http://i.imgur.com/T7ArF56.jpg

[PoliteAssasin]

Just a point on your opinion of marauders:

 

Annihilation is actually nice in 2.0. Rage management is awesome, it received a major buff. Bloodlust, Hemorrhage, Cloak of Carnage. Our dots also reduce our targets damage by 5% while up. That's actually quite a bit, especially considering we can keep dots on essentially 99% of the time now. 2% heals on saber ward. This is a huge buff to survivability, and very bursty when combined with dot crits, berserk/zen or just natural. Extra stack of juyo and annihilate. More crit, more damage from juyo. Significant cooldown reduction with the extra stack of annihilate. I don't see how you could say this spec received nothing, or that we need dot protection. Not sure how much experience you've had with the class/spec, but i've played this spec/class for over a year now and in my experience it's doing just fine. Sure they nerfed our heals by 1%. Or our crit by 9%. But the buff to energy management and stacks of juyo/annihilate more than compensate for that. I still top dps charts with Anni against competent rage and carnage players. Vic Slashes, which is even more spammable due to rage improvments, crit for around 4-4.4k each hit. Annihilate crits for 7-7.4k a hit. Combined with the vindicator set bonus leap(which is now incorporated into the weaponmaster iirc) you'll be doing some pretty bursty hits. I don't think you give this spec the credit it really deserves. The reason people think watchman/anni is so bad is because mediocre players get a hold of it and don't do so well. In the hands of the right player, it will always outshine the other two specs.

Edited April 13, 2013 by PoliteAssasin

[biowareftw]

I know me and you had a heated debate about Watchman pre 2.0, but I actually am doing really well with it since the Bolster revamp.

 

It for me handles healers way better than combat, if Bioware would add maybe a few more touches Watchman would be darn right amazing!

 

Something needs added and I can't put my finger on it yet.

 

Also Sage Balance is amazing right now, I almost do 600k and up each match and blow people apart.

 

Yeah it was good to see sages/sorcs get the burst they wanted.

 

Watchman? I have a few ideas to improve the spec, that would not effect pve at all.

 

1. How about, each stack of annihilate/merciless slash increases your speed by 5 percent, maxing at 15-20. This would take a long time to build, but would increase mobility. Watchman can't leap from a root, or leap to a sniper in cover, and they also run slower then combat, can't root from range. They also don't auto slow on charge/leap like rage/focus.

 

2. Dot protection. Lethality snipers have this.

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/78MwvXE/lingering-toxins

 

There is absolutely no reason Watchman/annihilation shouldn't have the same, especially when rupture is on a cooldown. This wouldn't effect pve at all and could be implemented immediately. There was a time when no one cleansed anything, and that time is gone. Lethality needed this talent, and watchman needs it as well.

 

These two changes would make Watchman much more viable in ranked, due to getting stronger the longer a fight goes on, and wouldn't tick people off the way rage/focus does.

Edited April 13, 2013 by biowareftw

[LiveandDieinLA]

Just a point on your opinion of marauders:

 

it will always outshine the other two specs.

 

can't agree with this statement, if only because watchman has always been the worst spec for rateds...

[ripamorame]

You forgot to put Merc is still awful

[Paelo]

Pot5 server

It is way too easy to put your back to a wall/object and throw a dot on a scoundrel/op to completely screw them over. Other then that, yes it is a strong class, and yes it has counters (provided this idiotic see stealth thing goes). It might also prevent people from flocking to the MM tree, over other trees. MM with the see stealth thing? Is just too good. If you don't remove it completely, perhaps you could put the see stealth ability in engineering or lethality. Engineering is a lot of fun btw, for those who haven't tried it. Another option might be making the cone like 10 yards max. I still think the better solution is to get rid of the skill all together though. They didn't need this. It screws over one class and one class only and that class is already weaker then the other stealth class (will get into this later).

 

 

 

Couldn't disagree any more with this. The stealth detection is very limited to start with, and at best all it does is let the class spot careless players who wander into the frontal arc. Positioning against walls is all well and good but in most areas that also limits their own los a fair amount, it's situational at best and there's no reason to remove the skill.

[biowareftw]

Couldn't disagree any more with this. The stealth detection is very limited to start with, and at best all it does is let the class spot careless players who wander into the frontal arc. Positioning against walls is all well and good but in most areas that also limits their own los a fair amount, it's situational at best and there's no reason to remove the skill.

 

If you think seeing someone at max range in stealth, when that class is completely tied to their opener and their improved stealth talent is also used as a sprint...

 

When that class is the designed counter to the sniper/slinger...

 

If you think this is legit? I don't know what to say lol.

 

This doesn't really screw over my sin/shadow at all. I can still wreck people when being pulled out of stealth. A scoundrel/op? This screws them over big time. You don't seem to understand, a scoundrel/op is tied to their opener. Backblast has a 12 second cooldown (which is silly).

 

My sniper/slinger does not need this. I already counter jk/sw melee so stupidly hard that there needs to be some classes to counter me. As far as other ranged. Well I smoke them as well, so...yeah...

 

Add to all this? They are taking away some of the utility that a merc/commando brings. It would be like adding friendly pull to snipers. It is just dumb. Just because some guy at Bioware thought this was a good idea, doesn't make it a good idea. Team bubblestun was awful, and so is this idiotic anti stealth talent.

 

Engineering already is VERY good against stealth, as far as screwing them over.

 

We now have snipers leading damage, with their designed counter needing to use a cooldown that is used for other crap (1 v 1 's vs stealthers/sprint) and circle stupidly far around their target, just in attempt to shut one class down.

 

So you have a sniper (equally skilled player) doing like 1 million single target damage, with a healing debuff and a 30 yard CC, and it's counter doing half that, trying to shut down the sniper/slinger, and wasting a ton of time trying to get a opener off, while the sniper is happily 3 shotting people and if he has his back to a wall? The op/scoundrel can't even get the opener lol. Why the hell would I bring a "counter" that does half the dmg of the person they are "shutting down".

 

This talent is broke. It needs removed. Just because my shadow is current GOD MODE, doesn't mean the talent is legit. It screws over the other stealth class, and the other stealth class is HORRIBLE compared to the shadow/sin.

 

Shadow/sin needs toned town, anti stealth talent needs to go. These two things are just broken atm.

[MarkXXIV]

I was gonna read this thread but biowareftw is a troll who said that merc were fine back in 1.7... Just quit my merc again playing the handicapped version of sniper is not as fun as it looks and merc heals are a joke. Edited April 13, 2013 by MarkXXIV

[Paelo]

If you think seeing someone at max range in stealth,

 

Good to see you're not exaggerating

 

when that class is completely tied to their opener

 

Ops/scoundrels yes. Sins/shadows? Hell no. Which is more a balance issue concerning the need to tone down shadows/sins.

 

and their improved stealth talent is also used as a sprint...

 

Again, using ops/scoundrel as the example, overlooking the issue of sins/shadows.

 

When that class is the designed counter to the sniper/slinger...

 

That class is also designed to be a healer, snipers/slingers have one job they can perform, nuking the crap of their targets.

 

If you think this is legit? I don't know what to say lol.

 

Given the....caibre of your comments so far that's probably for the best.

 

This doesn't really screw over my sin/shadow at all. I can still wreck people when being pulled out of stealth. A scoundrel/op? This screws them over big time.

 

Thankyou for further proving my point.

 

My sniper/slinger does not need this.

 

If we're going to play the 'x class doesn't need this' game there's plenty of room to drag multiple skills from classes into that pool.

 

 

Add to all this?

 

Add to what? You're yet to raise a valid point.

 

They are taking away some of the utility that a merc/commando brings.

 

Again with the absurd exaggerations

 

We now have snipers leading damage,

 

Who's we? I've seen plenty of wz's where mara's/sents, mandos/mercs manage to take top dps over snipers/slingers.

 

with their designed counter needing to use a cooldown that is used for other crap (1 v 1 's vs stealthers/sprint) and circle stupidly far around their target, just in attempt to shut one class down.

 

Again using scoundrel/ops while ignoring sins/shadows. Not to mention the fact that even with this issue, scoundrels and ops are still capable of coming out on top against a sniper/slinger. So they have to burn some cooldowns, that's your argument? Seriously? Oh gee, imagine that, a fight where the challenge level forces a player to burn skills to win:rolleyes:

 

This talent is broke. It needs removed..

 

No more broken than derp sweeping sents or the insane damage/survivability from sins/shadows at the moment.

 

Just because my shadow is current GOD MODE, doesn't mean the talent is legit. It screws over the other stealth class, and the other stealth class is HORRIBLE compared to the shadow/sin.

.

 

Cart before the horse you're suggesting then. If stealth scan was to get the boot, then at the same time (not after) sins/shadows need a nerf.

Edited April 13, 2013 by Paelo

[MidichIorian]

I don't really have a problem with the other classes and their tweaks but I think it affected my own performance when they got rid of my instant WW. I used to be able to control one enemy and fight the other when I had two on me , that's not an option anymore because the stun will be broken the second I apply it and from thereon it's an uphill battle. The option is to spec full madness, and be stuck with piss poor force management in normal random warzones, or go lightning for backlash and stun bubble.

 

Hence, I want instant WW back or effusion moved to the first tier in the skill tree so I can take that and still go full madness. An alternative would be to add an initial 1-2 second root on slow.

[Monterone]

I don't really have a problem with the other classes and their tweaks but I think it affected my own performance when they got rid of my instant WW. I used to be able to control one enemy and fight the other when I had two on me , that's not an option anymore because the stun will be broken the second I apply it and from thereon it's an uphill battle. The option is to spec full madness, and be stuck with piss poor force management in normal random warzones, or go lightning for backlash and stun bubble.

 

Hence, I want instant WW back or effusion moved to the first tier in the skill tree so I can take that and still go full madness. An alternative would be to add an initial 1-2 second root on slow.

 

Yeah instant WW is a great loss! I've used the 2s cast WW on my sorc ONCE since 2.0 early release. I mean as far as viability goes of doing such a long hard cast in a fast paced low TTK pvp environment -- well, they pretty much could have removed it altogether. I just don't use it any more, not because I don't want to but because I just can't.

 

Terrible, terrible loss for sorcs and bad balancing job from APeck.

 

 

Edit: and I'm not about to waste 2 talent points to make it a 1.5s cast WW... nor am I dumb enough to waste 4 talent points in hybrid to make it a 1s cast! lol

Edited April 13, 2013 by Monterone

[MidichIorian]

Yeah instant WW is a great loss! I've used the 2s cast WW on my sorc ONCE since 2.0 early release. I mean as far as viability goes of doing such a long hard cast in a fast paced low TTK pvp environment -- well, they pretty much could have removed it altogether. I just don't use it any more, not because I don't want to but because I just can't.

 

Terrible, terrible loss for sorcs and bad balancing job from APeck.

On a positive note, it opened up an "easy to reach" spot on my keyboard. Yerah it got moved to the "less used" section and was replaced by barrier. Edited April 13, 2013 by MidichIorian

[foxmob]

Just a point on your opinion of marauders:

 

Annihilation is actually nice in 2.0.

 

....snip....

 

 

it's considerably worse than it was in 1.7, and 1.7 it was fine but pretty clearly the last of 3 choices.

 

here's why it's worse now: ramp up time. ttk. longest ramp up of the 3 with significantly shorter ttk in 2.0. I actually like the spec, and I have the most experience with it. it's just that you're not gonna live long at all. you can throw pacify on one person. but the 2nd guy is just going to murder you.

 

I do like it in 1v1 scenarios. but I"ll still get torn a new one by el'sassin out of stealth. nothing like on the vg though.

Edited April 13, 2013 by foxmob

[Monterone]

On a positive note, it opened up an "easy to reach" spot on my keyboard. Yerah it got moved to the "less used" section and was replaced by barrier.

 

Which is also funny, Barrier on 3 minute cooldown replacing it as a more often used ability.

Edited April 14, 2013 by Monterone

[RankorSSGS]

You know, there is a little thing Operatives get that Assassins cannot come close to. It's called LETHALITY. The damage and killing power is just unreal. Spammable aoe internal dots keep healers busy, and the back to back to back Culls give incredible burst. I do agree that Concealment is pretty much inferior to Deception now, which is unfortunate. Currently, if you are a dps Operative and not playing LethaIity, you are doing it wrong. I think the appropriate fix is buffs to Concealment, rather than nerfs to Deception. Pre 2.0, there 0 viable dps stealth classes. There were perhaps a dozen people who truly believed Assassin dps was viable for ranked, and zero people who believed dps Operatives were good enough. Now in 2.0, we have 2 stealth dps specs that are looking viable (Deception and Lethality). That leaves 2 specs that are not, Concealment and Madness. Buff those 2 up to viability, and we are good to go.